Hello,

I was reading the FAQ and the FAQ wiki and they describe two ways to
wire a two-way light switch. It seems that if you are retrofitting
that one way is to run 3-core and earth between both switches.
However, I am wondering whether this will lead to a crowded box? After
all, there will be the big 3&E, plus the live to the switch, and the
cable to the lamp: so three cables in total, and three earths to fit
to the box.

Is it better to use the alternative arrangement, where the live goes
to one switch, the load goes to the other switch, and twin and earth
is run between them? That way there are only two cables per light
switch?

TIA,
Sam.

In article ,
Sam wrote:
I was reading the FAQ and the FAQ wiki and they describe two ways to
wire a two-way light switch. It seems that if you are retrofitting
that one way is to run 3-core and earth between both switches.
However, I am wondering whether this will lead to a crowded box? After
all, there will be the big 3&E, plus the live to the switch, and the
cable to the lamp: so three cables in total, and three earths to fit
to the box.

Only two cables on the most common arrangements - the triple and earth two
way switch cable and the TW&E switch drop. It's not usual to bring the
feed (line and neutral) to the switch as this generally wastes cable.

Is it better to use the alternative arrangement, where the live goes
to one switch, the load goes to the other switch, and twin and earth
is run between them? That way there are only two cables per light
switch?

Generally uses more cable - not a good idea given today's prices.

Here's the circuit for a two way switch (and optional intermediate) the
(my) preferred way:-




L1 L1
0===========0 0===========0============= Line
| \ / |
C 0================================O C
\ / \ /
0===========0 0===========0============= Switch return
L2 Optional L2
Intermediate

--
*Your kid may be an honours student, but you're still an idiot.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

I just thought I should explain:

I am sure the correct way to wire a light is T&E carrying L&N to the
light pendant and then T&E carrying L&switched L to the switch.
However my house (1970s) has rather strange wiring. The electrician
says he has never seen anything like it (but he is young LOL). It is
figure of 8 with a double sheathed L and a smaller earth attached. One
of these carries L to the switch and another carries switched live to
the lamp, hence two wires and two earths. A separate neutral chains
from one pendant to the next.

Do you think I should ask him to rewire or if it's not broke don't fix
it?

TIA.

"Sam" wrote in message
...
I just thought I should explain:

I am sure the correct way to wire a light is T&E carrying L&N to the
light pendant and then T&E carrying L&switched L to the switch.
However my house (1970s) has rather strange wiring. The electrician
says he has never seen anything like it (but he is young LOL). It is
figure of 8 with a double sheathed L and a smaller earth attached. One
of these carries L to the switch and another carries switched live to
the lamp, hence two wires and two earths. A separate neutral chains
from one pendant to the next.

Do you think I should ask him to rewire or if it's not broke don't fix
it?

TIA.

It sounds okay. I recall using the same stuff in the '70's.

In article ,
Sam wrote:
I am sure the correct way to wire a light is T&E carrying L&N to the
light pendant and then T&E carrying L&switched L to the switch.

Or use junction boxes close to the fittings.

However my house (1970s) has rather strange wiring. The electrician
says he has never seen anything like it (but he is young LOL). It is
figure of 8 with a double sheathed L and a smaller earth attached. One
of these carries L to the switch and another carries switched live to
the lamp, hence two wires and two earths. A separate neutral chains
from one pendant to the next.

Do you think I should ask him to rewire or if it's not broke don't fix
it?

That would depend on whether the conductor sizes and insulation are up to
current specs - or rather reasonable ones. I can't comment directly as I
don't think I've ever seen what you describe.

--
*If PROGRESS is for advancement, what does that make CONGRESS mean?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Sam wrote:
I am sure the correct way to wire a light is T&E carrying L&N to the
light pendant and then T&E carrying L&switched L to the switch.

Or use junction boxes close to the fittings.

However my house (1970s) has rather strange wiring. The electrician
says he has never seen anything like it (but he is young LOL). It is
figure of 8 with a double sheathed L and a smaller earth attached. One
of these carries L to the switch and another carries switched live to
the lamp, hence two wires and two earths. A separate neutral chains
from one pendant to the next.

Do you think I should ask him to rewire or if it's not broke don't fix
it?

That would depend on whether the conductor sizes and insulation are up to
current specs - or rather reasonable ones. I can't comment directly as I
don't think I've ever seen what you describe.

--
*If PROGRESS is for advancement, what does that make CONGRESS mean?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Was 3/029" when I used it.

"Sam" wrote in message
...
I just thought I should explain:

I am sure the correct way to wire a light is T&E carrying L&N to the
light pendant and then T&E carrying L&switched L to the switch.
However my house (1970s) has rather strange wiring. The electrician
says he has never seen anything like it (but he is young LOL). It is
figure of 8 with a double sheathed L and a smaller earth attached. One
of these carries L to the switch and another carries switched live to
the lamp, hence two wires and two earths. A separate neutral chains
from one pendant to the next.

Do you think I should ask him to rewire or if it's not broke don't fix
it?


Bog standard single and earth wiring (now called 6241Y cable). In your case
you will have no permanent live at any light fitting, the lives are looped
at the switches. Most of your switches should have 3 wires, a live in which
is connected to the cable that feeds the next switch on the lighting circuit
and a live out to your light fitting.

There is not correct way to do lighting. Loop in loop out at the pendant is
usually the fastest and cheapest way of doing the job but not if you then
have to fit light fittings that have small terminals.

Some councils still insist that their own houses are rewired using singles.

Adam

In article ,
John wrote:
That would depend on whether the conductor sizes and insulation are up
to current specs - or rather reasonable ones. I can't comment directly
as I don't think I've ever seen what you describe.

Was 3/029" when I used it.

Then it's pretty old and IMHO would come down to the condition of the
insulation - most 3/.029 is rubber.

--
*Why is the man who invests all your money called a broker?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
snip

Then it's pretty old and IMHO would come down to the condition of
the
insulation - most 3/.029 is rubber.


quote
However my house (1970s) has rather strange wiring.
/quote

Surely not in a house built in the 1970s though?
--
Wikipedia: the Internet equivalent of
Hyde Park and 'speakers corner'...

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
John wrote:
That would depend on whether the conductor sizes and insulation are up
to current specs - or rather reasonable ones. I can't comment directly
as I don't think I've ever seen what you describe.

Was 3/029" when I used it.

Then it's pretty old and IMHO would come down to the condition of the
insulation - most 3/.029 is rubber.

--
*Why is the man who invests all your money called a broker?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

When I used it it was grey PVC. I recall buying single (double insulated)
Red, Black and Red with earth at the time of doing a re-wire

In article ,
Jerry wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
snip

Then it's pretty old and IMHO would come down to the condition of
the
insulation - most 3/.029 is rubber.


quote
However my house (1970s) has rather strange wiring.
/quote

Surely not in a house built in the 1970s though?

Who can tell how old the actual cable was when used?

--
*Funny, I don't remember being absent minded.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
John wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
John wrote:
That would depend on whether the conductor sizes and insulation are
up to current specs - or rather reasonable ones. I can't comment
directly as I don't think I've ever seen what you describe.

Was 3/029" when I used it.

Then it's pretty old and IMHO would come down to the condition of the
insulation - most 3/.029 is rubber.

When I used it it was grey PVC. I recall buying single (double
insulated) Red, Black and Red with earth at the time of doing a re-wire

I've seen that. It was the figure of eight stuff I haven't. Wonder where
it came from? Is it a UK made thing?

--
*Why don't you ever see the headline "Psychic Wins Lottery"?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Jerry wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
snip

Then it's pretty old and IMHO would come down to the condition of
the
insulation - most 3/.029 is rubber.


quote
However my house (1970s) has rather strange wiring.
/quote

Surely not in a house built in the 1970s though?

Who can tell how old the actual cable was when used?


Straws think clutching you I are at

Rearrange the above words into a well know phrase! :~)

On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 10:09:35 +0100, Owain
wrote:

That used to be deprecated because old switches sometimes broke down (in
insulative properties) if they had live and neutral present on adjacent
terminals.

By neutral do you mean the cable to the lamp?

I can see how there might be the "temptation" for the electricity to
jump between the terminals but surely either arrangement has the live
and neutral on adjacent terminals? After all, if the live and the lamp
are not connected, the lamp will never come on!

On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 17:54:25 GMT, "ARWadworth"
wrote:

Bog standard single and earth wiring (now called 6241Y cable). In your case
you will have no permanent live at any light fitting, the lives are looped
at the switches. Most of your switches should have 3 wires, a live in which
is connected to the cable that feeds the next switch on the lighting circuit
and a live out to your light fitting.

Yes.That's exactly it.

There is not correct way to do lighting. Loop in loop out at the pendant is
usually the fastest and cheapest way of doing the job but not if you then
have to fit light fittings that have small terminals.

I agree it is not how to do it if I were wiring from scratch but it
would be a lot of hassle to rewire all the lights in the house. Is it
best to leave them as they are?

On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 14:24:10 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

I am sure the correct way to wire a light is T&E carrying L&N to the
light pendant and then T&E carrying L&switched L to the switch.

Or use junction boxes close to the fittings.

I would like to use a junction box but how can you "hide" them? I
think a blacking plat on the wall or ceiling would look ugly.

Thanks,
Sam.

In article ,
Sam wrote:
I am sure the correct way to wire a light is T&E carrying L&N to the
light pendant and then T&E carrying L&switched L to the switch.

Or use junction boxes close to the fittings.

I would like to use a junction box but how can you "hide" them? I
think a blacking plat on the wall or ceiling would look ugly.

You'd normally hide then inside the ceiling void. Not much help if you
have solid floors, though.

--
*Hard work has a future payoff. Laziness pays off NOW.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Jerry wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Jerry wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
snip

Then it's pretty old and IMHO would come down to the condition of
the
insulation - most 3/.029 is rubber.


quote
However my house (1970s) has rather strange wiring.
/quote

Surely not in a house built in the 1970s though?

Who can tell how old the actual cable was when used?


Straws think clutching you I are at

Rearrange the above words into a well know phrase! :~)

Jerry, I've no idea where this sort of cable originated from since I've
never seen it even on sale - and I was looking at such things at that time
as now. Perhaps since you're so certain it is up to the job after 40
years you'd inform me exactly what it is and who made it?

Like with all things electrical caution is the prudent way to go. Not a
good idea to guess at safety.

--
*Why don't you ever see the headline "Psychic Wins Lottery"?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Sam" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 17:54:25 GMT, "ARWadworth"
wrote:

Bog standard single and earth wiring (now called 6241Y cable). In your
case
you will have no permanent live at any light fitting, the lives are looped
at the switches. Most of your switches should have 3 wires, a live in
which
is connected to the cable that feeds the next switch on the lighting
circuit
and a live out to your light fitting.

Yes.That's exactly it.

There is not correct way to do lighting. Loop in loop out at the pendant
is
usually the fastest and cheapest way of doing the job but not if you then
have to fit light fittings that have small terminals.

I agree it is not how to do it if I were wiring from scratch but it
would be a lot of hassle to rewire all the lights in the house. Is it
best to leave them as they are?

Why would you want to rewire the lights just because they are in singles? I
meant to say there is no correct way to wire lights There was a t that
should not have been there on my last post.

There is nothing wrong with singles. If all your switches and fittings are
earthed and the cable is in good order then you would be rewiring for
nothing. The switches will take 3 cables per connection and you can easily
get 4 earths into a back box earthing terminal.

Adam

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
John wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
John wrote:
That would depend on whether the conductor sizes and insulation are
up to current specs - or rather reasonable ones. I can't comment
directly as I don't think I've ever seen what you describe.

Was 3/029" when I used it.

Then it's pretty old and IMHO would come down to the condition of the
insulation - most 3/.029 is rubber.

When I used it it was grey PVC. I recall buying single (double
insulated) Red, Black and Red with earth at the time of doing a re-wire

I've seen that. It was the figure of eight stuff I haven't. Wonder where
it came from? Is it a UK made thing?

The figure of 8 stuff is 6241Y cable. I looks like a figure of 8 (when made
by some manufacturers) as the outer grey/white (and in the 70's red) PVC
insulation has a larger circumference around the insulated live than the
bare CPC that runs along side it. A better description would be a capital
letter B with the bottom half of the B been done in lower case. It is not a
true figure of 8.

Hope that makes sense. You are correct that it is not rubber as the OPs
house was built in 1970s.

Adam

On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 14:37:15 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

You'd normally hide then inside the ceiling void. Not much help if you
have solid floors, though.

I thought they had to be accessible though?

On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 18:46:00 +0100, Owain
wrote:

No, I mean the neutral, with the possibility of a direct phase-neutral
short occurring during switching.

I am confused. Neither method involves having a neutral at the light
switch.

"Sam" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 14:37:15 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

You'd normally hide then inside the ceiling void. Not much help if
you
have solid floors, though.

I thought they had to be accessible though?

The mechanical joints (terminals) in the cable are only at the switch
plate and 'loop in-loop out' ceiling-rose though.
--
Wikipedia: the Internet equivalent of
Hyde Park and 'speakers corner'...

In article ,
Sam wrote:
You'd normally hide then inside the ceiling void. Not much help if you
have solid floors, though.

I thought they had to be accessible though?

Under floorboards is considered accessible.

--
*The more people I meet, the more I like my dog.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Jerry wrote:

"Sam" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 14:37:15 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

You'd normally hide then inside the ceiling void. Not much help if
you
have solid floors, though.

I thought they had to be accessible though?

The mechanical joints (terminals) in the cable are only at the switch
plate and 'loop in-loop out' ceiling-rose though.

You can't really use those ceiling roses where the connections are all
accessible from below with other than pendant lights - which have rather
gone out of fashion.

--
*Middle age is when work is a lot less fun - and fun a lot more work.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 23:43:10 +0100, "Jerry"
wrote:

The mechanical joints (terminals) in the cable are only at the switch
plate and 'loop in-loop out' ceiling-rose though.

But surely not if there is a junction box under the floorboards
somewhere?

On Sat, 16 Aug 2008 09:48:22 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

I thought they had to be accessible though?

Under floorboards is considered accessible.

Is that so? That could be my get-out-of-jail card. The thing is, how
does someone else know that they are there when they want to say,
re-wire, later on? They would tug the wire and nothing would happen!
That's why I thought they had to be visible?

Thanks,
Sam.