Just a musing really. With the large number of digital (programmable -
but that's not really the issue) *room* thermostats now on the market at
reasonable prices, have I missed something, or is there a reason why
no-one seems to be producing a digital *cylinder* thermostat?

Surely with one of these you could do all sorts of clever things like...
ummm... pre-firing the boiler as hot water is drawn off but before the
tank reaches the "low" setpoint... have two sensors to allow day-period
variances (e.g. keep the top 1/3rd hot during the day, but fill the tank
in the evening)... allow user choice over "hysterisis" (or however you
spell it) so that boiler cycling is minimised... and probably loads more
that I haven't thought of.

This is the point where someone either tells me it's been done and is
available or tells me that there is no need to ditch the bimetal
thermostat because...

:-)

Hwyl!

M.

--
Martin Angove: http://www.tridwr.demon.co.uk/
Don't fight technology, live with it: http://www.livtech.co.uk/
.... The Whispered Rule: People will believe anything if you whisper it.

Martin Angove wrote:
Just a musing really. With the large number of digital (programmable -
but that's not really the issue) *room* thermostats now on the market
at reasonable prices, have I missed something, or is there a reason
why no-one seems to be producing a digital *cylinder* thermostat?

Surely with one of these you could do all sorts of clever things
like... ummm... pre-firing the boiler as hot water is drawn off but
before the tank reaches the "low" setpoint... have two sensors to
allow day-period variances (e.g. keep the top 1/3rd hot during the
day, but fill the tank in the evening)... allow user choice over
"hysterisis" (or however you spell it) so that boiler cycling is
minimised... and probably loads more that I haven't thought of.

Get the water piping hot for when you come home from work at the pit but set
the temp lower for night and daytime when you only want to wash the dishes,
or somesuch.
Looks like an idea with scope.

This is the point where someone either tells me it's been done and is
available or tells me that there is no need to ditch the bimetal
thermostat because...

I think I saw one once but couldn't find it when I trawled the usual
websites.

--
James...
http://www.jameshart.co.uk/

"Martin Angove" wrote in message
...
Just a musing really. With the large number of digital (programmable -
but that's not really the issue) *room* thermostats now on the market at
reasonable prices, have I missed something, or is there a reason why
no-one seems to be producing a digital *cylinder* thermostat?


But why ? Do you need to check the exact temperature of the water ?

Surely with one of these you could do all sorts of clever things like...
ummm... pre-firing the boiler as hot water is drawn off but before the
tank reaches the "low" setpoint... have two sensors to allow day-period
variances (e.g. keep the top 1/3rd hot during the day, but fill the tank
in the evening)... allow user choice over "hysterisis" (or however you
spell it) so that boiler cycling is minimised... and probably loads more
that I haven't thought of.


You can have thermocouples installed around the system that feed back to a
selectable LCD display. This lets you check the temperatures at various
points around the whole system. I've only ever seen them used in commercial
systems though.

This is the point where someone either tells me it's been done and is
available or tells me that there is no need to ditch the bimetal
thermostat because...

:-)

Hwyl!

M.


No. Can't say I've seen anything other than the bimetal strip being used
again the outside of a cylinder wall. As I said above, I've seen systems
with thermocouples placed in tanks and on pipes, that feed signals back to a
display board. But never in a domestic system.

There is a product called a boiler manager:

http://www.deeter.co.uk/boiler.htm

which we tested for Deeter when in prototype, and have since installed in a
few mainly local authority buildings. It checks the flow temperature from
the boiler against the return temperature, and only allows the boiler to
fire when the difference is just 3 degrees C between them. It is fitted
across the main boiler stat', so doesn't really take anything away from the
control of the boiler. You set it manually to the top temp' and it
automatically controls the lower difference itself.

I've been told it has saved two childrens homes we visit regularly, loads of
money on their bills over just the first years running period. I have one
fitted here in the house, and between the the first two years of having the
heating system and the second two years after fitting the manager, we
noticed a saving of at least half on the running costs. And that's no
joking. We haven't noticed any difference in the atmosphere or the hot
water supply, so it is basically only controlling the boilers firing cycles.

It is an expensive piece of kit to buy though, we got ours because of the
testing, but you should be able to get the outlay back withing two years of
running the system with it attached.

Boy can I go on a bit. :-))

I use an RF one. Saved me from running a cable.
Danfoss WP75RF.
Rgds

"Martin Angove" wrote in message
...
Just a musing really. With the large number of digital (programmable -
but that's not really the issue) *room* thermostats now on the market at
reasonable prices, have I missed something, or is there a reason why
no-one seems to be producing a digital *cylinder* thermostat?

Surely with one of these you could do all sorts of clever things like...
ummm... pre-firing the boiler as hot water is drawn off but before the
tank reaches the "low" setpoint... have two sensors to allow day-period
variances (e.g. keep the top 1/3rd hot during the day, but fill the tank
in the evening)... allow user choice over "hysterisis" (or however you
spell it) so that boiler cycling is minimised... and probably loads more
that I haven't thought of.

This is the point where someone either tells me it's been done and is
available or tells me that there is no need to ditch the bimetal
thermostat because...

:-)

Hwyl!

M.

--
Martin Angove: http://www.tridwr.demon.co.uk/
Don't fight technology, live with it: http://www.livtech.co.uk/
... The Whispered Rule: People will believe anything if you whisper it.

In article ,
Martin Angove wrote:
This is the point where someone either tells me it's been done and is
available or tells me that there is no need to ditch the bimetal
thermostat because...

Can't really see any benefit. With a well lagged tank I don't think you'd
separate the top third from the full tank for the time scale involved. And
my boiler cuts in before the hot water is exhausted anyway.

--
*Consciousness: That annoying time between naps.

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

"BigWallop" wrote in message
...

"Martin Angove" wrote in message
...
Just a musing really. With the large number of digital (programmable -
but that's not really the issue) *room* thermostats now on the market at
reasonable prices, have I missed something, or is there a reason why
no-one seems to be producing a digital *cylinder* thermostat?


But why ? Do you need to check the exact temperature of the water ?

Surely with one of these you could do all sorts of clever things like...
ummm... pre-firing the boiler as hot water is drawn off but before the
tank reaches the "low" setpoint... have two sensors to allow day-period
variances (e.g. keep the top 1/3rd hot during the day, but fill the tank
in the evening)... allow user choice over "hysterisis" (or however you
spell it) so that boiler cycling is minimised... and probably loads more
that I haven't thought of.


You can have thermocouples installed around the system that feed back to a
selectable LCD display. This lets you check the temperatures at various
points around the whole system. I've only ever seen them used in
commercial
systems though.

This is the point where someone either tells me it's been done and is
available or tells me that there is no need to ditch the bimetal
thermostat because...

:-)

Hwyl!

M.


No. Can't say I've seen anything other than the bimetal strip being used
again the outside of a cylinder wall. As I said above, I've seen systems
with thermocouples placed in tanks and on pipes, that feed signals back to
a
display board. But never in a domestic system.

There is a product called a boiler manager:

http://www.deeter.co.uk/boiler.htm

which we tested for Deeter when in prototype, and have since installed in
a
few mainly local authority buildings. It checks the flow temperature from
the boiler against the return temperature, and only allows the boiler to
fire when the difference is just 3 degrees C between them. It is fitted
across the main boiler stat', so doesn't really take anything away from
the
control of the boiler. You set it manually to the top temp' and it
automatically controls the lower difference itself.

I've been told it has saved two childrens homes we visit regularly, loads
of
money on their bills over just the first years running period. I have one
fitted here in the house, and between the the first two years of having
the
heating system and the second two years after fitting the manager, we
noticed a saving of at least half on the running costs. And that's no
joking. We haven't noticed any difference in the atmosphere or the hot
water supply, so it is basically only controlling the boilers firing
cycles.

It is an expensive piece of kit to buy though, we got ours because of the
testing, but you should be able to get the outlay back withing two years
of
running the system with it attached.

Boy can I go on a bit. :-))

This is just a load compensation controller. You say it fires when the
flow/return delta T (differential) is below 3C. This would just cycle.
Having a brief read of the front page, I'm sure it does not do this.

Load compensation controls are now an integral aspect of many condensing
boilers. They do the same thing by sensing the flow and return. If for
e.g., the boilers delta T should not be more than 22c, then it will not
allow the boiler to fire until it can give a flow of 62C, if say the return
is at 40C. Also if a system is fitted to a radiator delta T of 11C then it
will not allow the flow temp to be less than 11C higher than the return.
This way the boilers heat exchanger is protected and the flow and return
delta T is never less than 11C.

That is the basics, but many makers do it differently.

Thermal stores/heat banks reduce boiler cycling when two stats are fitted to
the cylinder - preferably electronic stats. Only when approx 80-90% of the
cylinders heat is exhausted will the boiler fire, then one long, continuous,
efficient burn until the store is fully heated. Two stats can do this on a
cylinder, and with a quick recovery coil in any type of cylinder using two
stats can also promote efficiency.




---
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Version: 6.0.524 / Virus Database: 321 - Release Date: 06/10/2003

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"BigWallop" wrote in message
...

"Martin Angove" wrote in message
...
Just a musing really. With the large number of digital (programmable -
but that's not really the issue) *room* thermostats now on the market
at
reasonable prices, have I missed something, or is there a reason why
no-one seems to be producing a digital *cylinder* thermostat?


But why ? Do you need to check the exact temperature of the water ?

Surely with one of these you could do all sorts of clever things
like...
ummm... pre-firing the boiler as hot water is drawn off but before the
tank reaches the "low" setpoint... have two sensors to allow
day-period
variances (e.g. keep the top 1/3rd hot during the day, but fill the
tank
in the evening)... allow user choice over "hysterisis" (or however you
spell it) so that boiler cycling is minimised... and probably loads
more
that I haven't thought of.


You can have thermocouples installed around the system that feed back to
a
selectable LCD display. This lets you check the temperatures at various
points around the whole system. I've only ever seen them used in
commercial
systems though.

This is the point where someone either tells me it's been done and is
available or tells me that there is no need to ditch the bimetal
thermostat because...

:-)

Hwyl!

M.


No. Can't say I've seen anything other than the bimetal strip being
used
again the outside of a cylinder wall. As I said above, I've seen
systems
with thermocouples placed in tanks and on pipes, that feed signals back
to
a
display board. But never in a domestic system.

There is a product called a boiler manager:

http://www.deeter.co.uk/boiler.htm

which we tested for Deeter when in prototype, and have since installed
in
a
few mainly local authority buildings. It checks the flow temperature
from
the boiler against the return temperature, and only allows the boiler to
fire when the difference is just 3 degrees C between them. It is fitted
across the main boiler stat', so doesn't really take anything away from
the
control of the boiler. You set it manually to the top temp' and it
automatically controls the lower difference itself.

I've been told it has saved two childrens homes we visit regularly,
loads
of
money on their bills over just the first years running period. I have
one
fitted here in the house, and between the the first two years of having
the
heating system and the second two years after fitting the manager, we
noticed a saving of at least half on the running costs. And that's no
joking. We haven't noticed any difference in the atmosphere or the hot
water supply, so it is basically only controlling the boilers firing
cycles.

It is an expensive piece of kit to buy though, we got ours because of
the
testing, but you should be able to get the outlay back withing two years
of
running the system with it attached.

Boy can I go on a bit. :-))

This is just a load compensation controller. You say it fires when the
flow/return delta T (differential) is below 3C. This would just cycle.
Having a brief read of the front page, I'm sure it does not do this.

Load compensation controls are now an integral aspect of many condensing
boilers. They do the same thing by sensing the flow and return. If for
e.g., the boilers delta T should not be more than 22c, then it will not
allow the boiler to fire until it can give a flow of 62C, if say the
return
is at 40C. Also if a system is fitted to a radiator delta T of 11C then
it
will not allow the flow temp to be less than 11C higher than the return.
This way the boilers heat exchanger is protected and the flow and return
delta T is never less than 11C.

That is the basics, but many makers do it differently.

Thermal stores/heat banks reduce boiler cycling when two stats are fitted
to
the cylinder - preferably electronic stats. Only when approx 80-90% of
the
cylinders heat is exhausted will the boiler fire, then one long,
continuous,
efficient burn until the store is fully heated. Two stats can do this on
a
cylinder, and with a quick recovery coil in any type of cylinder using two
stats can also promote efficiency.




Yeah. Something like that.


---
www.basecuritysystems.no-ip.com

Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.524 / Virus Database: 321 - Release Date: 06/10/03

"BigWallop" wrote in message
...

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"BigWallop" wrote in message
...

"Martin Angove" wrote in message
...
Just a musing really. With the large number of digital
(programmable -
but that's not really the issue) *room* thermostats now on the
market
at
reasonable prices, have I missed something, or is there a reason why
no-one seems to be producing a digital *cylinder* thermostat?


But why ? Do you need to check the exact temperature of the water ?

Surely with one of these you could do all sorts of clever things
like...
ummm... pre-firing the boiler as hot water is drawn off but before
the
tank reaches the "low" setpoint... have two sensors to allow
day-period
variances (e.g. keep the top 1/3rd hot during the day, but fill the
tank
in the evening)... allow user choice over "hysterisis" (or however
you
spell it) so that boiler cycling is minimised... and probably loads
more
that I haven't thought of.


You can have thermocouples installed around the system that feed back
to
a
selectable LCD display. This lets you check the temperatures at
various
points around the whole system. I've only ever seen them used in
commercial
systems though.

This is the point where someone either tells me it's been done and
is
available or tells me that there is no need to ditch the bimetal
thermostat because...

:-)

Hwyl!

M.


No. Can't say I've seen anything other than the bimetal strip being
used
again the outside of a cylinder wall. As I said above, I've seen
systems
with thermocouples placed in tanks and on pipes, that feed signals
back
to
a
display board. But never in a domestic system.

There is a product called a boiler manager:

http://www.deeter.co.uk/boiler.htm

which we tested for Deeter when in prototype, and have since installed
in
a
few mainly local authority buildings. It checks the flow temperature
from
the boiler against the return temperature, and only allows the boiler
to
fire when the difference is just 3 degrees C between them. It is
fitted
across the main boiler stat', so doesn't really take anything away
from
the
control of the boiler. You set it manually to the top temp' and it
automatically controls the lower difference itself.

I've been told it has saved two childrens homes we visit regularly,
loads
of
money on their bills over just the first years running period. I have
one
fitted here in the house, and between the the first two years of
having
the
heating system and the second two years after fitting the manager, we
noticed a saving of at least half on the running costs. And that's no
joking. We haven't noticed any difference in the atmosphere or the
hot
water supply, so it is basically only controlling the boilers firing
cycles.

It is an expensive piece of kit to buy though, we got ours because of
the
testing, but you should be able to get the outlay back withing two
years
of
running the system with it attached.

Boy can I go on a bit. :-))

This is just a load compensation controller. You say it fires when the
flow/return delta T (differential) is below 3C. This would just cycle.
Having a brief read of the front page, I'm sure it does not do this.

Load compensation controls are now an integral aspect of many condensing
boilers. They do the same thing by sensing the flow and return. If for
e.g., the boilers delta T should not be more than 22c, then it will not
allow the boiler to fire until it can give a flow of 62C, if say the
return
is at 40C. Also if a system is fitted to a radiator delta T of 11C then
it
will not allow the flow temp to be less than 11C higher than the return.
This way the boilers heat exchanger is protected and the flow and return
delta T is never less than 11C.

That is the basics, but many makers do it differently.

Thermal stores/heat banks reduce boiler cycling when two stats are
fitted
to
the cylinder - preferably electronic stats. Only when approx 80-90% of
the
cylinders heat is exhausted will the boiler fire, then one long,
continuous,
efficient burn until the store is fully heated. Two stats can do this
on
a
cylinder, and with a quick recovery coil in any type of cylinder using
two
stats can also promote efficiency.

Yeah. Something like that.

This has been around for about 10 years. I don't know the prices:
http://savastat.co.uk




---
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"IMM" wrote in message
...

"BigWallop" wrote in message
...

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"BigWallop" wrote in message
...

"Martin Angove" wrote in message
...
Just a musing really. With the large number of digital
(programmable -
but that's not really the issue) *room* thermostats now on the
market
at
reasonable prices, have I missed something, or is there a reason
why
no-one seems to be producing a digital *cylinder* thermostat?


But why ? Do you need to check the exact temperature of the water ?

Surely with one of these you could do all sorts of clever things
like...
ummm... pre-firing the boiler as hot water is drawn off but before
the
tank reaches the "low" setpoint... have two sensors to allow
day-period
variances (e.g. keep the top 1/3rd hot during the day, but fill
the
tank
in the evening)... allow user choice over "hysterisis" (or however
you
spell it) so that boiler cycling is minimised... and probably
loads
more
that I haven't thought of.


You can have thermocouples installed around the system that feed
back
to
a
selectable LCD display. This lets you check the temperatures at
various
points around the whole system. I've only ever seen them used in
commercial
systems though.

This is the point where someone either tells me it's been done and
is
available or tells me that there is no need to ditch the bimetal
thermostat because...

:-)

Hwyl!

M.


No. Can't say I've seen anything other than the bimetal strip being
used
again the outside of a cylinder wall. As I said above, I've seen
systems
with thermocouples placed in tanks and on pipes, that feed signals
back
to
a
display board. But never in a domestic system.

There is a product called a boiler manager:

http://www.deeter.co.uk/boiler.htm

which we tested for Deeter when in prototype, and have since
installed
in
a
few mainly local authority buildings. It checks the flow
temperature
from
the boiler against the return temperature, and only allows the
boiler
to
fire when the difference is just 3 degrees C between them. It is
fitted
across the main boiler stat', so doesn't really take anything away
from
the
control of the boiler. You set it manually to the top temp' and it
automatically controls the lower difference itself.

I've been told it has saved two childrens homes we visit regularly,
loads
of
money on their bills over just the first years running period. I
have
one
fitted here in the house, and between the the first two years of
having
the
heating system and the second two years after fitting the manager,
we
noticed a saving of at least half on the running costs. And that's
no
joking. We haven't noticed any difference in the atmosphere or the
hot
water supply, so it is basically only controlling the boilers firing
cycles.

It is an expensive piece of kit to buy though, we got ours because
of
the
testing, but you should be able to get the outlay back withing two
years
of
running the system with it attached.

Boy can I go on a bit. :-))

This is just a load compensation controller. You say it fires when the
flow/return delta T (differential) is below 3C. This would just
cycle.
Having a brief read of the front page, I'm sure it does not do this.

Load compensation controls are now an integral aspect of many
condensing
boilers. They do the same thing by sensing the flow and return. If
for
e.g., the boilers delta T should not be more than 22c, then it will
not
allow the boiler to fire until it can give a flow of 62C, if say the
return
is at 40C. Also if a system is fitted to a radiator delta T of 11C
then
it
will not allow the flow temp to be less than 11C higher than the
return.
This way the boilers heat exchanger is protected and the flow and
return
delta T is never less than 11C.

That is the basics, but many makers do it differently.

Thermal stores/heat banks reduce boiler cycling when two stats are
fitted
to
the cylinder - preferably electronic stats. Only when approx 80-90%
of
the
cylinders heat is exhausted will the boiler fire, then one long,
continuous,
efficient burn until the store is fully heated. Two stats can do this
on
a
cylinder, and with a quick recovery coil in any type of cylinder using
two
stats can also promote efficiency.

Yeah. Something like that.

This has been around for about 10 years. I don't know the prices:
http://savastat.co.uk

I do now. £170 + VAT


---
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Version: 6.0.524 / Virus Database: 321 - Release Date: 06/10/2003

"BigWallop" wrote in message
...

"Martin Angove" wrote in message
...
Just a musing really. With the large number of digital (programmable -
but that's not really the issue) *room* thermostats now on the market at
reasonable prices, have I missed something, or is there a reason why
no-one seems to be producing a digital *cylinder* thermostat?


But why ? Do you need to check the exact temperature of the water ?

Surely with one of these you could do all sorts of clever things like...
ummm... pre-firing the boiler as hot water is drawn off but before the
tank reaches the "low" setpoint... have two sensors to allow day-period
variances (e.g. keep the top 1/3rd hot during the day, but fill the tank
in the evening)... allow user choice over "hysterisis" (or however you
spell it) so that boiler cycling is minimised... and probably loads more
that I haven't thought of.


You can have thermocouples installed around the system that feed back to a
selectable LCD display. This lets you check the temperatures at various
points around the whole system. I've only ever seen them used in
commercial
systems though.

This is the point where someone either tells me it's been done and is
available or tells me that there is no need to ditch the bimetal
thermostat because...

:-)

Hwyl!

M.


No. Can't say I've seen anything other than the bimetal strip being used
again the outside of a cylinder wall. As I said above, I've seen systems
with thermocouples placed in tanks and on pipes, that feed signals back to
a
display board. But never in a domestic system.

There is a product called a boiler manager:

http://www.deeter.co.uk/boiler.htm

which we tested for Deeter when in prototype, and have since installed in
a
few mainly local authority buildings. It checks the flow temperature from
the boiler against the return temperature, and only allows the boiler to
fire when the difference is just 3 degrees C between them. It is fitted
across the main boiler stat', so doesn't really take anything away from
the
control of the boiler. You set it manually to the top temp' and it
automatically controls the lower difference itself.

I've been told it has saved two childrens homes we visit regularly, loads
of
money on their bills over just the first years running period. I have one
fitted here in the house, and between the the first two years of having
the
heating system and the second two years after fitting the manager, we
noticed a saving of at least half on the running costs. And that's no
joking.

"at least half". Have you took measurements? data over periods when fitted
and not fitted? What type of boiler do you have. On a condensing boiler I
can see big gains. On a regular boiler, gains in that only boiler dry
cycling is reduced. In a regular boiler you don't want the return temp to
drop low as condensation may occur. Anti-cycling can be achieved via a
simple electrical timer. Just delay re-firing for may 5,6,7 mins or so.

We haven't noticed any difference in the atmosphere or the hot
water supply, so it is basically only controlling the boilers firing
cycles.

It is an expensive piece of kit to buy though, we got ours because of the
testing, but you should be able to get the outlay back withing two years
of
running the system with it attached.

A Savastat is £175 + VAT which I think is steep for domestic. The Savastat
only has a return pipe sensor, relying on sensing "rate of temp change" to
judge the load of the system. The Savastat will work well with basic
commercial systems, which is its main target market.

The Deeter has a sensor on the flow and return which is more encouraging.
But it depends on how they have programmed it. How much is this unit?

I can see both of the above giving gains with a modulated burner boiler that
modulates to maintain a set flow temp, as do combi's. Just keep it on full
temp and let the load compensator stat do the rest. That also includes
combi's. But there must a way of cutting out the load compensator to allow
full heat for DHW. Fitting one on a boiler that already had load
compensation built-in is needless.

With a simple cheap condensing boiler, I would go for an outside weather
compensator. The Danfos model is £166 +VAT from discountedheating. This is
a good unit and takes into account the cylinder stat and that the boiler
needs to be on full heat when re-heating water. It senses the return pipe
temp to keep the boilers return in key with the outside weather.

Better units than the Randall, although more expensive, have inside
temperature influence, in that if the room temp is being approached it drops
the return temp even further and if over room setpoint by a degree or so
cuts out the burner. Anti-cycle control is also built-in. Very effective.
I know I have one like this.

http://www.danfoss-randall.co.uk/prod_bem5000.htm


BEM 5000 Boiler Energy Manager

The BEM 5000 is a sophisticated electronic domestic boiler energy manager
which when added to almost any central heating system. new or existing, will
reduce unnecessary boiler cycling. improve boiler seasonal efficiency and
reduce running costs.

The BEM 5000 integrates the operation of the heating system and domestic hot
water systems and includes a pump overrun.

The unit is a weather compensator which during periods of heating demand
varies the temperature of water flowing to the radiators as a function of
the outside temperature The technique which is well established in the
commercial market. adds significantly to system efficiency and reduces
running costs in the process. During periods of hot water demand. the
weather compensation function is cancelled to enable the cylinder to be
reheated as quickly and efficiently as possible

The BEM 5000 is an all electric solution which can be installed without the
need to drain down the system, making it an ideal system upgrade option

Improves system efficiency
Provides electronic boiler interlock
Low cost weather compensator
Provides HWS priority
Built-in pump run-on control
User adjustable




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