Hi

Strictly not a d-i-y question I guess, but I figure you guys may have some
useful advice.

We're in the middle of a bathroom re-fit. The walls are tiled except for the
bottom row and the ceramic floor tiling has just been 'completed' We're now
waiting for our contractor to return to finish the tiling and fit the
sanitary ware. The problem is the floor does not appear to be level by
spirit-level or by eye. The contractor has already replaced and over-boarded
the existing flooring (which he claimed was 'goosed') so I can't really see
any reason why he couldn't get the ceramic floor tiles perfectly level.

So my question is; how much fall across a 4' stretch of tiles is acceptable?
Also, how much difficulty would there be in lifting and refitting the tiles?
My guess is that it would be almost impossible to remove the tiles intact,
but that just getting them off and going back to the board shouldn't be an
enormous problem. I'm guessing that removing adhesive from plywood is at
least as easy as getting it off masonary.

Many thanks for any advice.

Jeff

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Jeff wrote:

Hi

Strictly not a d-i-y question I guess, but I figure you guys may have
some useful advice.

We're in the middle of a bathroom re-fit. The walls are tiled except
for the bottom row and the ceramic floor tiling has just been
'completed' We're now waiting for our contractor to return to finish
the tiling and fit the sanitary ware. The problem is the floor does
not appear to be level by spirit-level or by eye. The contractor has
already replaced and over-boarded the existing flooring (which he
claimed was 'goosed') so I can't really see any reason why he
couldn't get the ceramic floor tiles perfectly level.
So my question is; how much fall across a 4' stretch of tiles is
acceptable? Also, how much difficulty would there be in lifting and
refitting the tiles? My guess is that it would be almost impossible
to remove the tiles intact, but that just getting them off and going
back to the board shouldn't be an enormous problem. I'm guessing that
removing adhesive from plywood is at least as easy as getting it off
masonary.
Many thanks for any advice.

Jeff

Is it a 'wet' room? Does it need a slope in order to drain properly?

If not, then it should be level. I don't know what the official definition
of 'level' is - but I would use something like "horizontal within 1mm per
meter". If you can detect a slope on a long (3' or more) spirit level, then
it ain't level!

Can't comment on the ease or otherwise of re-laying the floor - but I would
expect the contractor to resist by all possible means - so you may have to
get very assertive!
--
Cheers,
Roger
______
Email address maintained for newsgroup use only, and not regularly
monitored.. Messages sent to it may not be read for several weeks.
PLEASE REPLY TO NEWSGROUP!

"Roger Mills" wrote in message
...

Is it a 'wet' room? Does it need a slope in order to drain properly?

No, it's not a wet-room, just a regular bathroom/toilet


If not, then it should be level. I don't know what the official definition
of 'level' is - but I would use something like "horizontal within 1mm per
meter". If you can detect a slope on a long (3' or more) spirit level,
then it ain't level!

Thanks - I'm measuring a fall of 10+ mm over 4' !


Can't comment on the ease or otherwise of re-laying the floor - but I
would expect the contractor to resist by all possible means - so you may
have to get very assertive!

Yes, I expect you're right. One problem is that the young chap doing the
work has been really thorough in other areas and has done a first rate job
generally. As a result he's now under some pressure from his boss to get the
job wrapped up. I really don;t like to drop him in it but it looks like I'm
going to have to :-(

Thanks again
Jeff

Jeff wrote:
"Roger Mills" wrote in message
...

Is it a 'wet' room? Does it need a slope in order to drain properly?

No, it's not a wet-room, just a regular bathroom/toilet

If not, then it should be level. I don't know what the official definition
of 'level' is - but I would use something like "horizontal within 1mm per
meter". If you can detect a slope on a long (3' or more) spirit level,
then it ain't level!

Thanks - I'm measuring a fall of 10+ mm over 4' !

Can't comment on the ease or otherwise of re-laying the floor - but I
would expect the contractor to resist by all possible means - so you may
have to get very assertive!

Yes, I expect you're right. One problem is that the young chap doing the
work has been really thorough in other areas and has done a first rate job
generally. As a result he's now under some pressure from his boss to get the
job wrapped up. I really don;t like to drop him in it but it looks like I'm
going to have to :-(

Thanks again
Jeff




I don't think you can expect to get your floor levelled as part of a
tiling job. He lays the tiles flat on whatever surface he's presented
with. Otherwise he could get involved with all kinds of secondary
problems, possibly structural.
As long as the fixtures are level, there shouldn't be a problem.

"Stuart Noble" wrote in message
...

I don't think you can expect to get your floor levelled as part of a
tiling job. He lays the tiles flat on whatever surface he's presented
with. Otherwise he could get involved with all kinds of secondary
problems, possibly structural.
As long as the fixtures are level, there shouldn't be a problem.

Yes, but bear in mind that I'm being charged for re-flooring as well as
over-boarding and tiling.
I think that if it looks sloping to the naked eye then it's unacceptable.
Ensuring that the fixtures are vertical is probably going to make the slope
more noticable still.

Surely it's possible to take up a certain amount of underlying slope (and I
don't really believe there is any such slope) by varying the thickness of
adhesive or by first applying a screed. Maybe I should add that the bathroom
is on the first floor of a 30 year old house and all adjacent floors
(measured through carpet) appear perfectly level.

Jeff

On Mar 24, 1:10 pm, "Jeff" wrote:
"Stuart Noble" wrote in message

...



I don't think you can expect to get your floor levelled as part of a
tiling job. He lays the tiles flat on whatever surface he's presented
with. Otherwise he could get involved with all kinds of secondary
problems, possibly structural.
As long as the fixtures are level, there shouldn't be a problem.

Yes, but bear in mind that I'm being charged for re-flooring as well as
over-boarding and tiling.
I think that if it looks sloping to the naked eye then it's unacceptable.
Ensuring that the fixtures are vertical is probably going to make the slope
more noticable still.

Surely it's possible to take up a certain amount of underlying slope (and I
don't really believe there is any such slope) by varying the thickness of
adhesive or by first applying a screed. Maybe I should add that the bathroom
is on the first floor of a 30 year old house and all adjacent floors
(measured through carpet) appear perfectly level.

Jeff

If it's seriously sloping to the eye then your joists would have to be
levelled. You can't slap on that much tile adhesive to correct it.
The floor must have been sloping before this renovation. Unless the
contractor specifically said they would correct the slope I don't
think there is much you can do.
It might be that you're noticing the slope more than anyone else.
Unless when walking on it you really feel it, I wouldn't worry about
it. You will rarely find a floor that is spirit level.

Also, sanitary ware is not exactly square so don't worry about that.
Plus a bead of silicone can be applied along the edge.

Jeff wrote:

Thanks - I'm measuring a fall of 10+ mm over 4' !

Which in the grand scheme of things is not actually that much. The
problem is that tiled walls will make it look far more obvious than it
was before.

Can't comment on the ease or otherwise of re-laying the floor - but I
would expect the contractor to resist by all possible means - so you may
have to get very assertive!

Yes, I expect you're right. One problem is that the young chap doing the
work has been really thorough in other areas and has done a first rate job
generally. As a result he's now under some pressure from his boss to get the
job wrapped up. I really don;t like to drop him in it but it looks like I'm
going to have to :-(

They will probably argue that levelling the floor was not part of the
job. The difference you have is too much to correct with more adhesive.
Ideally you would start by taking up the existing floor, packing out the
joists and relaying and over boarding (or just laying thicker ply in
place of the boards).

The easiest solution now would probably be self levelling over the new
tiles and then a re-tile, but that could give you problems with the
change in floor level into the room.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Yes, but bear in mind that I'm being charged for re-flooring as well as
over-boarding and tiling.

In that case I'd say there's no excuse for it not being level.

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
Hi

Strictly not a d-i-y question I guess, but I figure you guys may have some
useful advice.

We're in the middle of a bathroom re-fit. The walls are tiled except for
the
bottom row and the ceramic floor tiling has just been 'completed' We're
now
waiting for our contractor to return to finish the tiling and fit the
sanitary ware. The problem is the floor does not appear to be level by
spirit-level or by eye. The contractor has already replaced and
over-boarded
the existing flooring (which he claimed was 'goosed') so I can't really
see
any reason why he couldn't get the ceramic floor tiles perfectly level.

So my question is; how much fall across a 4' stretch of tiles is
acceptable?
Also, how much difficulty would there be in lifting and refitting the
tiles?
My guess is that it would be almost impossible to remove the tiles intact,
but that just getting them off and going back to the board shouldn't be an
enormous problem. I'm guessing that removing adhesive from plywood is at
least as easy as getting it off masonary.

Many thanks for any advice.

Jeff



If you put a rubber ball on one side of the room...does it roll to the other
side?

No doubt if it is unlevel then that would be down to the joist in the first
place?

On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 13:10:46 +0000, Jeff wrote:

"Stuart Noble" wrote in message
...

I don't think you can expect to get your floor levelled as part of a
tiling job. He lays the tiles flat on whatever surface he's presented
with. Otherwise he could get involved with all kinds of secondary
problems, possibly structural.
As long as the fixtures are level, there shouldn't be a problem.

Yes, but bear in mind that I'm being charged for re-flooring as well as
over-boarding and tiling.
I think that if it looks sloping to the naked eye then it's
unacceptable. Ensuring that the fixtures are vertical is probably going
to make the slope more noticable still.

Surely it's possible to take up a certain amount of underlying slope
(and I don't really believe there is any such slope) by varying the
thickness of adhesive or by first applying a screed. Maybe I should add
that the bathroom is on the first floor of a 30 year old house and all
adjacent floors (measured through carpet) appear perfectly level.

Jeff

Much depends on what's the root cause of the slope.
If the house has settled (quite plausible) and the joist are 10mm out
then fixing that is going to be very hard and may lead to a less solid
job. I.e A small slope on a solid, smooth floor is better than a flat
floor which is less rigid does not match the floor outside the room,
cracks the tiles etc...

If the slope is because the laying of the plywood has been haphazard then
it really is not good enough.

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html

"George" wrote in message
...


If you put a rubber ball on one side of the room...does it roll to the
other
side?

Yes, a rubber ball rolls rapidly across to one side.

Mind you, I was at a pub called the "Crooked House" not so long ago and it
was clear that things can look level but be far from actually level. They
supply golf balls in that pub and you can watch them merrily roll uphill -
and that's before you've had a pint!


No doubt if it is unlevel then that would be down to the joist in the
first
place?


I don't buy this explanation because a spirit level shows the adjacent rooms
(some of whose floors share the same joists) to be perfectly level. And in
general all of the upstairs rooms seem level - the house is only 30 years'
old.

Jeff

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
...

Much depends on what's the root cause of the slope.
If the house has settled (quite plausible) and the joist are 10mm out
then fixing that is going to be very hard and may lead to a less solid
job. I.e A small slope on a solid, smooth floor is better than a flat
floor which is less rigid does not match the floor outside the room,
cracks the tiles etc...

If the slope is because the laying of the plywood has been haphazard then
it really is not good enough.


Thanks.

I suspect a combination of poor over-boarding and adhesive thickness.
The house is half-rendered. I think that the amount of settlement needed to
produce a 12mm fall across 4' would be more than enough to produce noticable
cracks in the rendering. I've also checked all of the other upstairs rooms
with a spirit level (admittedly through carpet) and they seem perfectly
level - a rubber ball shows no sign of rolling.

Jeff

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "Jeff"
saying something like:

Thanks - I'm measuring a fall of 10+ mm over 4'


produce a 12mm fall across 4'

I'd get it fixed if it's getting that bad in a few hours.
--

Dave

"Grimly Curmudgeon" wrote in message
...
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "Jeff"
saying something like:

Thanks - I'm measuring a fall of 10+ mm over 4'


produce a 12mm fall across 4'

I'd get it fixed if it's getting that bad in a few hours.
--

Dave

Thanks for the concern Dave.
No need to worry though, 10+ is just shorthand for a bit more than 10 (e.g.
12).

Jeff

John Rumm wrote:
Jeff wrote:

Thanks - I'm measuring a fall of 10+ mm over 4' !

Which in the grand scheme of things is not actually that much. The
problem is that tiled walls will make it look far more obvious than it
was before.

Can't comment on the ease or otherwise of re-laying the floor - but I
would expect the contractor to resist by all possible means - so you
may have to get very assertive!

Yes, I expect you're right. One problem is that the young chap doing
the work has been really thorough in other areas and has done a first
rate job generally. As a result he's now under some pressure from his
boss to get the job wrapped up. I really don;t like to drop him in it
but it looks like I'm going to have to :-(

They will probably argue that levelling the floor was not part of the
job. The difference you have is too much to correct with more adhesive.

Oh no it isn't!

I've corrected over an inch and a half with adhesive.


Ideally you would start by taking up the existing floor, packing out the
joists and relaying and over boarding (or just laying thicker ply in
place of the boards).

The easiest solution now would probably be self levelling over the new
tiles and then a re-tile, but that could give you problems with the
change in floor level into the room.


And there's the rub..ive got a threshshold that steps down an inch and a
half into the adjoining room..

Building is not exact, and some builders are less exact than others..you
have to decide whether a sloping floor is preferable to a step..