We have lived in our detached 4 bedroom house for over 30 years. It was
built in 1969. The house is of standard brick construction with (presumably)
breeze block interior dividing walls. The house is built on firm ground and
there is no evidence of any subsidence.

Now for the problem. Three of the doorframes on the first floor have, over
several years, become distorted to the extent that the doors will not fit
properly. To be specific, one vertical member of each of the frames has
progressively dropped by up to 1cm forcing the frame into a parallelogram
shape. Closer inspection reveals that the floor beneath each of the said
frame verticals has dropped by about the same amount. I believe the floor to
be of standard construction with joists bearing on masonry.

Over the years I have adjusted the doors and hinges so that the doors will
close, and I have assumed that the problem was due to normal settlement.
What has prompted this post is a sudden change of several mm on one of the
frames which makes me wonder if something more sinister is going on.

It would appear that, although there is no ground floor subsidence, there is
an apparent 'subsidence' between the first and ground floors.

I have checked with my buildings insurance and have been told that this kind
of problem is not covered.

My dilemma is whether (a) to get some 'professional' advice? or (b) to
ignore the problem and continue to adjust the doors as required?

Where would you suggest I look for an appropriate 'professional'?

All comments/advice will be read with interest.

On 4 Jan, 15:12, "Malcolm H" wrote:
We have lived in our detached 4 bedroom house for over 30 years. It was
built in 1969. The house is of standard brick construction with (presumably)
breeze block interior dividing walls. The house is built on firm ground and
there is no evidence of any subsidence.

Now for the problem. Three of the doorframes on the first floor have, over
several years, become distorted to the extent that the doors will not fit
properly. To be specific, one vertical member of each of the frames has
progressively dropped by up to 1cm forcing the frame into a parallelogram
shape. Closer inspection reveals that the floor beneath each of the said
frame verticals has dropped by about the same amount. I believe the floor to
be of standard construction with joists bearing on masonry.

Over the years I have adjusted the doors and hinges so that the doors will
close, and I have assumed that the problem was due to normal settlement.
What has prompted this post is a sudden change of several mm on one of the
frames which makes me wonder if something more sinister is going on.

It would appear that, although there is no ground floor subsidence, there is
an apparent 'subsidence' between the first and ground floors.

I have checked with my buildings insurance and have been told that this kind
of problem is not covered.

My dilemma is whether (a) to get some 'professional' advice? or (b) to
ignore the problem and continue to adjust the doors as required?

Where would you suggest I look for an appropriate 'professional'?

All comments/advice will be read with interest.

I would do (c) have a look myself. With the floorboards up, have a
good look around. There must be some other evidence of what is
happening. Any cracks around joists where they enter the wall etc ?
Simon.

"Malcolm H" wrote in message
...
We have lived in our detached 4 bedroom house for over 30 years. It was
built in 1969. The house is of standard brick construction with
(presumably)
breeze block interior dividing walls. The house is built on firm ground
and
there is no evidence of any subsidence.

Now for the problem. Three of the doorframes on the first floor have, over
several years, become distorted to the extent that the doors will not fit
properly. To be specific, one vertical member of each of the frames has
progressively dropped by up to 1cm forcing the frame into a parallelogram
shape. Closer inspection reveals that the floor beneath each of the said
frame verticals has dropped by about the same amount. I believe the floor
to
be of standard construction with joists bearing on masonry.


The only similar problem I have seen was where the joists came in from the
masonry walls at either side if the property and rested on a central wooden
beam, to make the downstairs more open-plan. The spec was for a 12" x 12"
beam AFAICR and the builder had fitted 10x10 or even 10x8. A few years after
build there was a 1" gap between the upstairs walls and the floor in all the
houses. Is there masonry directly under these doors? If so there should be
some other signs of sunsidence, if not, I would suspect under-spec joisting.


--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)

On Jan 4, 3:12 pm, "Malcolm H" wrote:
We have lived in our detached 4 bedroom house for over 30 years. It was
built in 1969. The house is of standard brick construction with (presumably)
breeze block interior dividing walls. The house is built on firm ground and
there is no evidence of any subsidence.

Now for the problem. Three of the doorframes on the first floor have, over
several years, become distorted to the extent that the doors will not fit
properly. To be specific, one vertical member of each of the frames has
progressively dropped by up to 1cm forcing the frame into a parallelogram
shape. Closer inspection reveals that the floor beneath each of the said
frame verticals has dropped by about the same amount. I believe the floor to
be of standard construction with joists bearing on masonry.

Over the years I have adjusted the doors and hinges so that the doors will
close, and I have assumed that the problem was due to normal settlement.
What has prompted this post is a sudden change of several mm on one of the
frames which makes me wonder if something more sinister is going on.

It would appear that, although there is no ground floor subsidence, there is
an apparent 'subsidence' between the first and ground floors.

I have checked with my buildings insurance and have been told that this kind
of problem is not covered.

My dilemma is whether (a) to get some 'professional' advice? or (b) to
ignore the problem and continue to adjust the doors as required?

Where would you suggest I look for an appropriate 'professional'?

All comments/advice will be read with interest.

Pictures posted to a web page online and linked to in this thread.
Show outside the house too so we can see what the construction is.
Also what sort of other damage might have occurred.

It might just be a problem with the frame or the door. 1969 was a bad
year for doors (or am I thinking of 79?) They suddenly invented
dowelled joints instead of mortice and tennons.

If the floor is upstairs the walls might have risen. (This is going to
be a humungous problem over the next few years.)

I doubt it is what has happened to you though. The roof flaps up and
down in windy weather and takes the stud-work with it. Over a few
years if it wasn't anchored down, the walls are an half inch or more
higher than the floor.

Modern studding is lucky to get a couple of 4" nails into the
chipboard on most modern crapware. Building ideas really are god-awful
these days.

The message
from "Malcolm H" contains these words:

We have lived in our detached 4 bedroom house for over 30 years. It was
built in 1969. The house is of standard brick construction with (presumably)
breeze block interior dividing walls. The house is built on firm ground and
there is no evidence of any subsidence.

Now for the problem. Three of the doorframes on the first floor have, over
several years, become distorted to the extent that the doors will not fit
properly. To be specific, one vertical member of each of the frames has
progressively dropped by up to 1cm forcing the frame into a parallelogram
shape. Closer inspection reveals that the floor beneath each of the said
frame verticals has dropped by about the same amount. I believe the floor to
be of standard construction with joists bearing on masonry.

I am having some difficulty visualising a construction where that sort
of thing could happen without there being sagging floorboards elsewhere
and even the descending side of the doorframe is odd. Doorframes are
traditionally nailed through to the wall, either into wedges between
blocks or straight into the blocks themselves if they are the soft
variety.

So can you confirm that the upstairs interior walls are indeed solid
block and sit directly above the downstairs walls (as would normally be
expected with block walls), and say a) which way the floorboards run in
each doorway and b) whether the side that is sinking is the hinge side
or the handle side in each case.

I can't guarantee a solution but without additional information I am
completely stumped.

--
Roger Chapman

"Roger" wrote in message
k...
The message
from "Malcolm H" contains these words:

We have lived in our detached 4 bedroom house for over 30 years. It was
built in 1969. The house is of standard brick construction with
(presumably)
breeze block interior dividing walls. The house is built on firm ground
and
there is no evidence of any subsidence.

Now for the problem. Three of the doorframes on the first floor have,
over
several years, become distorted to the extent that the doors will not fit
properly. To be specific, one vertical member of each of the frames has
progressively dropped by up to 1cm forcing the frame into a parallelogram
shape. Closer inspection reveals that the floor beneath each of the said
frame verticals has dropped by about the same amount. I believe the floor
to
be of standard construction with joists bearing on masonry.

I am having some difficulty visualising a construction where that sort
of thing could happen without there being sagging floorboards elsewhere
and even the descending side of the doorframe is odd. Doorframes are
traditionally nailed through to the wall, either into wedges between
blocks or straight into the blocks themselves if they are the soft
variety.

So can you confirm that the upstairs interior walls are indeed solid
block and sit directly above the downstairs walls (as would normally be
expected with block walls), and say a) which way the floorboards run in
each doorway and b) whether the side that is sinking is the hinge side
or the handle side in each case.

I can't guarantee a solution but without additional information I am
completely stumped.

--
Roger Chapman

Hello Roger and thank you (and others) for your questions. I will try to
answer them with the help of four pictures whch can be seen he

http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/mphear...ey=B1kqN2nMq-Q

Picture 1 shows two adjacent doors on the first floor where the inner frame
uprights have dropped about 1cm. The spirit level is straight (the curved
coving is spherical aberration of the camera lens!). Picture 2 shows the
lower parts of the doors and the floor which is also deflected by about 1cm
at the centre between the doors.

Picture 3 shows the downstairs wall immediately below the two upstairs
doors. The bottom of the upstairs two inner frame uprights is over the
middle of the downstairs door frame. No subsidence or deformation of
anything is visible downstairs.

Picture 4 was taken from the halfway stair landing. The two upstairs doors
can be seen between the horizontal rails with the downstairs door
immediately beneath.

All interior walls are indeed solid but I don't know how the frames are
secured. I can't see any nails. The sinking side for both doors shown is the
hinge side and the floorboards run in a direction parallel to the closed
doors. Not shown in these pictures is a third door with a sinking frame
side, but this one is on the handle side!

I look forward to your comments with interest

Malcolm H

The message
from "Malcolm H" contains these words:

http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/mphear...ey=B1kqN2nMq-Q

Picture 1 shows two adjacent doors on the first floor where the inner frame
uprights have dropped about 1cm. The spirit level is straight (the curved
coving is spherical aberration of the camera lens!). Picture 2 shows the
lower parts of the doors and the floor which is also deflected by about 1cm
at the centre between the doors.

Picture 3 shows the downstairs wall immediately below the two upstairs
doors. The bottom of the upstairs two inner frame uprights is over the
middle of the downstairs door frame. No subsidence or deformation of
anything is visible downstairs.

Picture 4 was taken from the halfway stair landing. The two upstairs doors
can be seen between the horizontal rails with the downstairs door
immediately beneath.

All interior walls are indeed solid but I don't know how the frames are
secured. I can't see any nails. The sinking side for both doors shown
is the
hinge side and the floorboards run in a direction parallel to the closed
doors. Not shown in these pictures is a third door with a sinking frame
side, but this one is on the handle side!

It's getting late but ISTM that the section between the doors shown in
pictures 1 and 2 is too narrow to be block so is probably a wooden
pillar so the possibility exists that whatever bodge was used to support
the bottom of the pillar has collapsed (if indeed there was anything
there other than the floorboard in the first place) and the weight of
the block wall above the door is driving the pillar downwards against
the support only of a flexing floorboard.

I think you need to take up an adjacent floorboard or two and see what's
what. I didn't consider the 2 door configeration in my original response
but an inadequately supported pillar seems about the only option that
fits the facts.

--
Roger Chapman

Malcolm H wrote:

All interior walls are indeed solid but I don't know how the frames are
secured. I can't see any nails. The sinking side for both doors shown is the
hinge side and the floorboards run in a direction parallel to the closed
doors. Not shown in these pictures is a third door with a sinking frame
side, but this one is on the handle side!

The floorboards tell us one thing - the direction of the joists. The
wall upstairs must be built over a single joist (or hopefully a pair of
joists nailed together). It could simply be this is sagging with time.
It may be what it is bearing on is failing, or it could be shrinkage of
the joist from rot of some sort.

Having a couple of floorboards up on the landing for a look around will
tell you more.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"Malcolm H" wrote in message
...
Hello Roger and thank you (and others) for your questions. I will try to
answer them with the help of four pictures whch can be seen he

http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/mphear...ey=B1kqN2nMq-Q

Picture 1 shows two adjacent doors on the first floor where the inner
frame uprights have dropped about 1cm. The spirit level is straight (the
curved coving is spherical aberration of the camera lens!). Picture 2
shows the lower parts of the doors and the floor which is also deflected
by about 1cm at the centre between the doors.

Picture 3 shows the downstairs wall immediately below the two upstairs
doors. The bottom of the upstairs two inner frame uprights is over the
middle of the downstairs door frame. No subsidence or deformation of
anything is visible downstairs.

Picture 4 was taken from the halfway stair landing. The two upstairs doors
can be seen between the horizontal rails with the downstairs door
immediately beneath.

All interior walls are indeed solid but I don't know how the frames are
secured. I can't see any nails. The sinking side for both doors shown is
the hinge side and the floorboards run in a direction parallel to the
closed doors. Not shown in these pictures is a third door with a sinking
frame side, but this one is on the handle side!

It looks to me as though the central pillar which carries both sets of
hinges is not properly supported underneath. It possibly just rests on the
floorboards rather than being integral with the wall. I'm a bit puzzled
about the joists and floorboards though. If the floorboards are parallel to
the two closed doors then the joists must run perpendicular to them i.e.
through that wall or ending at it if it's a supporting wall.

I think you need to work out which are your supporting walls and which
aren't, where all the joists are and what that door frame is built on.
--
Dave Baker
Puma Race Engines

"Dave Baker" wrote in message
...
It looks to me as though the central pillar which carries both sets of
hinges is not properly supported underneath. It possibly just rests on the
floorboards rather than being integral with the wall. I'm a bit puzzled
about the joists and floorboards though. If the floorboards are parallel
to the two closed doors then the joists must run perpendicular to them
i.e. through that wall or ending at it if it's a supporting wall.

I think you need to work out which are your supporting walls and which
aren't, where all the joists are and what that door frame is built on.

Actually that central pillar might not rest on anything. A single door frame
obviously doesn't have anything underneath it. The side frames are nailed to
the wall and one of those carries the weight of the door. Your case with a
double door with the hinges in the centre is a bit unusual because it means
there has to be a supported central pillar carrying the weight. If the
hinges were both moved to the sides then the central pillar doesn't take any
load. I'm wondering if the doors should have hung the other way but the
builder didn't realise that.

Is the third door you're having a problem with a single one or a double like
this one?
--
Dave Baker
Puma Race Engines

The message
from contains these words:

The wall between the two doors does not appear to be above a
downstairs wall,
is it solid, and how is it supported?

FWIW I think it is and my comments were made on that basis.

--
Roger Chapman

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Malcolm H wrote:

All interior walls are indeed solid but I don't know how the frames are
secured. I can't see any nails. The sinking side for both doors shown is
the hinge side and the floorboards run in a direction parallel to the
closed doors. Not shown in these pictures is a third door with a sinking
frame side, but this one is on the handle side!

The floorboards tell us one thing - the direction of the joists. The wall
upstairs must be built over a single joist (or hopefully a pair of joists
nailed together). It could simply be this is sagging with time. It may be
what it is bearing on is failing, or it could be shrinkage of the joist
from rot of some sort.

Having a couple of floorboards up on the landing for a look around will
tell you more.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/


Thank you all for your helpful responses.

My conclusion is that the joists in the loft are inadequate and sagging.
This increases top loading on inadequate dividing walls causing cracking
(which I forgot to mention). The cracked sections of the dividing wall then
apply top loading to the door frames thereby causing the problem. I don't
believe that any practical solution short of total destruction and rebuild
is possible, I shall therefore live with it!

I believe the builder in 1969 was in financial difficulties and was probably
trying to economise.