Time to forget Ebay?
 

----------------------------
21 December, 2007 | 12:10PM GMT

Following on from our announcement on 10th August 2007 we wanted to let
you know that from mid-January well be expanding our ongoing efforts to
protect eBay buyers and sellers by only allowing PayPal to be offered as
a payment option on certain listings.

Weve looked at the results of the earlier payment restrictions that we
put in place in August, and weve already seen a decrease in
transactions where eBayers have been left dissatisfied. The safety of
the eBay trading environment and prevention of fraud is very important
to us, so well continue to monitor and closely analyse the listings
where weve restricted payment methods.

From around 10th January, PayPal will need to be the only payment
method for sales in the following listings:

* those that are set for a one-day auction
* those in the following categories:
o Computing Software
o Consumer Electronics MP3 Players
o Wholesale & Job Lots Mobile & Home Phones
o Business, Office & Industrial Industrial Supply / MRO

If you would like to sell in the categories, youll need to sign up for
a PayPal account if you dont already have one:

* Sign up for a PayPal account
* Learn more about how PayPal protects the buyers/sellers

We appreciate your continuing support in helping to keep eBay a great
place to buy and sell.

Regards,

The eBay Team

----------------------

Basically I can see that unless you have paypal, you won't be ABLE to
use ebay shortly.

Isn't this in contravention of some monopoly legislation somewhere

Time to forget Ebay?
 

On 2007-12-28 00:56:00 +0000, The Natural Philosopher said:

----------------------------
21 December, 2007 | 12:10PM GMT

Following on from our announcement on 10th August 2007 we wanted to let
you know that from mid-January well be expanding our ongoing efforts
to protect eBay buyers and sellers by only allowing PayPal to be
offered as a payment option on certain listings.

Weve looked at the results of the earlier payment restrictions that we
put in place in August, and weve already seen a decrease in
transactions where eBayers have been left dissatisfied. The safety of
the eBay trading environment and prevention of fraud is very important
to us, so well continue to monitor and closely analyse the listings
where weve restricted payment methods.

From around 10th January, PayPal will need to be the only payment
method for sales in the following listings:

* those that are set for a one-day auction
* those in the following categories:
o Computing Software
o Consumer Electronics MP3 Players
o Wholesale & Job Lots Mobile & Home Phones
o Business, Office & Industrial Industrial Supply / MRO

If you would like to sell in the categories, youll need to sign up for
a PayPal account if you dont already have one:

* Sign up for a PayPal account
* Learn more about how PayPal protects the buyers/sellers

We appreciate your continuing support in helping to keep eBay a great
place to buy and sell.

Regards,

The eBay Team

----------------------

Basically I can see that unless you have paypal, you won't be ABLE to
use ebay shortly.

Hard to say from this whether it is a fraud reduction game (the
categories listed may well be ones for scams and piracy) or whether
it's simply an excuse for a gradual lockin to the inhouse payment
vehicle so that they can make a turn on that component as well.





Isn't this in contravention of some monopoly legislation somewhere

I don't think so. There are other big players with their own payment
systems (Google, Amazon) and there are other trading sites.

More to the point will be whether people don't like Ebay's moves and go
elsewhere.

Time to forget Ebay?
 

In message , at 00:56:00 on Fri,
28 Dec 2007, The Natural Philosopher remarked:
Basically I can see that unless you have paypal, you won't be ABLE to
use ebay shortly.

Isn't this in contravention of some monopoly legislation somewhere

I don't think the PayPal fees are going to put off sellers any more than
the listing charges do, although I agree that it's slightly less
convenient for people selling a one-off item in those categories. Then
there's the other side of the coin - I won't buy off people who refuse
to take PayPal, as it means a huge delay while I mail a cheque to them
and they wait for it to clear. Very few sellers have direct Credit Card
Merchant facilities, and not PayPal. Not accepting PayPal is a huge
alarm bell.

You seem to be glossing over the main issue here - which is consumer
protection. Too many people are being ripped off by rogue sellers, and
the PayPal restriction is actually so that sellers are better monitored
and refunds can be given to buyers more easily if there's a problem
later on.

In any event I have yet to find a transaction (as either buyer or
seller) where there has been any objection at all to paying by
cash-on-collection [even if the sale was "PayPal only" in theory].
Although both parties have to realise that the transaction is final at
that point (like buying at a car boot sale) and subsequent problems are
most unlikely to be sorted out.
--
Roland Perry

Time to forget Ebay?
 

In message 47745442@qaanaaq, at 01:41:22 on Fri, 28 Dec 2007, Andy
Hall remarked:
Hard to say from this whether it is a fraud reduction game (the
categories listed may well be ones for scams and piracy)

Mainly, yes. For a seller to accept PayPal they must have verified a
bank account with them, so it adds a big chunk of traceability and
scares away people who want to sell-and-run using disposable accounts.
If the merchant wants to sell more than £500 a month through PayPal they
*also* have to register a credit card.

or whether it's simply an excuse for a gradual lockin to the inhouse
payment vehicle so that they can make a turn on that component as well.

Buyers find it convenient to pay by PayPal, as it gives any seller the
ability to receive funds from a buyer's Credit card. At that point
there's Credit Card commission and buyer protection involved (and quite
likely cashback to the buyer as well) and that has to come from someone
other than the tooth fairy.
--
Roland Perry

Time to forget Ebay?
 

On Fri, 28 Dec 2007 00:56:00 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:


Basically I can see that unless you have paypal, you won't be ABLE to
use ebay shortly.

Isn't this in contravention of some monopoly legislation somewhere


I would have thought that it would fall (possibly) against EU
competition law seeing as Ebay own Paypal. And possibly restraint of
trade since sellers are being dictated to as to what payment method
they can accept. (IANAL)

Time to forget Ebay?
 

On 2007-12-28 08:50:00 +0000, Geoff said:

On Fri, 28 Dec 2007 00:56:00 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:


Basically I can see that unless you have paypal, you won't be ABLE to
use ebay shortly.

Isn't this in contravention of some monopoly legislation somewhere


I would have thought that it would fall (possibly) against EU
competition law seeing as Ebay own Paypal. And possibly restraint of
trade since sellers are being dictated to as to what payment method
they can accept. (IANAL)

Nobody *has* to use Ebay unless one says that they are in a defacto
trading monopoly position (e.g. Microsoft).

There seems to be some flexibility on acceptance of payment - e.g. one
doesn't hear American Express complaining because some traders don't
accept their cards, or Mastercard and Visa that others don't accept
theirs.

OTOH, I did read that Google was having a scrap with Ebay about wanting
Google Checkout as an option, so certainly there is a commercial angle.

OTOOH, Ebay would argue that they are facilitating traders operating
without the cost and bureucracy of a credit card merchant account.

Time to forget Ebay?
 

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...

The ... prevention of fraud is very important to us

But less important than protecting the privacy of the fraudster.

--
Tim Ward - posting as an individual unless otherwise clear
Brett Ward Limited - www.brettward.co.uk
Cambridge Accommodation Notice Board - www.brettward.co.uk/canb
Cambridge City Councillor

Time to forget Ebay?
 

In article ,
Geoff wrote:
On Fri, 28 Dec 2007 00:56:00 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:


Basically I can see that unless you have paypal, you won't be ABLE to
use ebay shortly.

Isn't this in contravention of some monopoly legislation somewhere


I would have thought that it would fall (possibly) against EU
competition law seeing as Ebay own Paypal. And possibly restraint of
trade since sellers are being dictated to as to what payment method they
can accept. (IANAL)

I don't see that. No trader on the high street for example is forced to
offer credit card payment or to take a cheque. And could conceivably state
they only accepted one make of credit card as payment. They might be mad
to do so, but why would it be against any law?

Ebay isn't a monopoly and no one is forced to use it.

--
*If all is not lost, where the hell is it?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Time to forget Ebay?
 

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...

I don't think the PayPal fees are going to put off sellers any more than
the listing charges do

I'm not sure that's the main objection to PayPal. I get the impression that
the main objection, and the reason I won't use it, is that it simply doesn't
conduct itself to the standards we expect of a UK bank even in these
benighted times.

--
Tim Ward - posting as an individual unless otherwise clear
Brett Ward Limited - www.brettward.co.uk
Cambridge Accommodation Notice Board - www.brettward.co.uk/canb
Cambridge City Councillor

Time to forget Ebay?
 

On 2007-12-28 09:22:51 +0000, "Tim Ward" said:

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...

The ... prevention of fraud is very important to us

But less important than protecting the privacy of the fraudster.

Depends on who is paying to cover the cost of the fraud

Time to forget Ebay?
 

On 2007-12-28 09:24:29 +0000, "Tim Ward" said:

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...

I don't think the PayPal fees are going to put off sellers any more than
the listing charges do

I'm not sure that's the main objection to PayPal. I get the impression that
the main objection, and the reason I won't use it, is that it simply doesn't
conduct itself to the standards we expect of a UK bank even in these
benighted times.

Doesn't that depend on how it is used?

For example, one could just put enough funds into the account to cover
a purchase and take out any balance after making a sale.

However, I don't really see the problem in this. Nobody *has* to use
Ebay. The world did function perfectly well before they came on the
scene and there are other choices.

Time to forget Ebay?
 

In message , at 09:24:29 on Fri, 28
Dec 2007, Tim Ward remarked:

I don't think the PayPal fees are going to put off sellers any more than
the listing charges do

I'm not sure that's the main objection to PayPal. I get the impression that
the main objection, and the reason I won't use it, is that it simply doesn't
conduct itself to the standards we expect of a UK bank even in these
benighted times.

In what kinds of way? Their dispute resolution process can be a bit
opaque, but my High Street Bank doesn't even *have* such a process.
--
Roland Perry

Time to forget Ebay?
 

In message 4774c2e2@qaanaaq, at 09:33:22 on Fri, 28 Dec 2007, Andy
Hall remarked:
Nobody *has* to use Ebay. The world did function perfectly well before
they came on the scene and there are other choices.

eBay is very good for both buying new items and recycling used items. To
that extent it is a huge improvement. It has saved me lots of money by
finding "hard to get" items without having to fruitlessly visit dozens
of shops.
--
Roland Perry

Time to forget Ebay?
 

In article 4774c2e2@qaanaaq,
Andy Hall wrote:
On 2007-12-28 09:24:29 +0000, "Tim Ward" said:

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...

I don't think the PayPal fees are going to put off sellers any more
than the listing charges do

I'm not sure that's the main objection to PayPal. I get the impression
that the main objection, and the reason I won't use it, is that it
simply doesn't conduct itself to the standards we expect of a UK bank
even in these benighted times.

Doesn't that depend on how it is used?

For example, one could just put enough funds into the account to cover
a purchase and take out any balance after making a sale.

Indeed. Or if you prefer to do it via a credit card get one solely for use
with Paypal.

However, I don't really see the problem in this. Nobody *has* to use
Ebay. The world did function perfectly well before they came on the
scene and there are other choices.

True.

I'd just add the one major loss I've had with Ebay - and really the only
loss - was buying something and paying cash on delivery by the seller. It
was an secondhand engine and not in the condition as described. But I'm
not sure paying by any other method would have helped in this
circumstance. I've not had any problems with Paypal despite using it for
about 400 transactions. Certainly the *obvious* scammers don't use it -
they usually insist on Western Union.

--
*It IS as bad as you think, and they ARE out to get you.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Time to forget Ebay?
 

In message , at 09:22:51 on Fri, 28
Dec 2007, Tim Ward remarked:
The ... prevention of fraud is very important to us

But less important than protecting the privacy of the fraudster.

How are you getting on with that? What law do you think the fraudster
has broken by opening an account in your company's name?

Have you tried asking them to send you the userid and password for the
account, as presumably you can demonstrate that you are an officer of
your company. Then you'll be able to see the details for yourself.
--
Roland Perry

Time to forget Ebay?
 

In message 4774c212@qaanaaq, at 09:29:54 on Fri, 28 Dec 2007, Andy
Hall remarked:
The ... prevention of fraud is very important to us
But less important than protecting the privacy of the fraudster.

Depends on who is paying to cover the cost of the fraud

Yes, if a Credit Card Company allows a chargeback after a dispute with a
seller, you don't expect them to tell you the dodgy trader's personal
details as well.

Just as the Internet allows people to be their own publisher, and their
own Travel Agent, it now lets become their own CC-accepting retailer.
All these activities come with extra things to think about, whether the
person believes it or not.
--
Roland Perry

Time to forget Ebay?
 

On 2007-12-28 09:45:32 +0000, Roland Perry said:

In message 4774c2e2@qaanaaq, at 09:33:22 on Fri, 28 Dec 2007, Andy
Hall remarked:
Nobody *has* to use Ebay. The world did function perfectly well before
they came on the scene and there are other choices.

eBay is very good for both buying new items and recycling used items.
To that extent it is a huge improvement. It has saved me lots of money
by finding "hard to get" items without having to fruitlessly visit
dozens of shops.

Yes I can understand that, but it's still not a "must have" - i.e. they
are not the only route to buying food and medicines.

OTOH, I would argue that Microsoft isn't a "must have" either (in fact
better if it were a shouldn't have, but that's not likely any time
soon) but they have been chided for monopolistic practices.

Time to forget Ebay?
 

On 2007-12-28 09:53:21 +0000, Roland Perry said:

In message 4774c212@qaanaaq, at 09:29:54 on Fri, 28 Dec 2007, Andy
Hall remarked:
The ... prevention of fraud is very important to us
But less important than protecting the privacy of the fraudster.

Depends on who is paying to cover the cost of the fraud

Yes, if a Credit Card Company allows a chargeback after a dispute with
a seller, you don't expect them to tell you the dodgy trader's personal
details as well.

Just as the Internet allows people to be their own publisher, and their
own Travel Agent, it now lets become their own CC-accepting retailer.
All these activities come with extra things to think about, whether the
person believes it or not.

Fair enough.

However, everybody does understand the rules on going in (or should
have read them) and therefore should act accordingly.

It's the same as if I buy something as a consumer vs. buying something
as a business. Different rules apply.

Time to forget Ebay?
 

In message 4774ca6b@qaanaaq, at 10:05:31 on Fri, 28 Dec 2007, Andy
Hall remarked:

Nobody *has* to use Ebay. The world did function perfectly well
before they came on the scene and there are other choices.
eBay is very good for both buying new items and recycling used
items. To that extent it is a huge improvement. It has saved me lots
of money by finding "hard to get" items without having to fruitlessly
visit dozens of shops.

Yes I can understand that, but it's still not a "must have" - i.e. they
are not the only route to buying food and medicines.

If that's your only criterion, then most of civilisation is unnecessary.

--
Roland Perry

Time to forget Ebay?
 

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 09:22:51 on Fri, 28
Dec 2007, Tim Ward remarked:
The ... prevention of fraud is very important to us

But less important than protecting the privacy of the fraudster.

How are you getting on with that?

Nowhere.

What law do you think the fraudster has broken by opening an account in
your company's name?

Not clear, but that's not the point. The only motivation for opening an
account in my company's name can have been to defraud someone else - it's
*prevention* of *this* crime that I was trying to achieve. And the real
point ... this would result in hassle for me to cope with.

Have you tried asking them to send you the userid and password for the
account, as presumably you can demonstrate that you are an officer of your
company. Then you'll be able to see the details for yourself.

They have made it absolutely clear that they won't give me any information
about their customer who has opened an account and who might have
accidentally mistyped the wrong company name and address when they did so.

Companies House have advised me to report this to the police but I'm not
sure how to do so in a fashion that they will either understand or do
anything about.

--
Tim Ward - posting as an individual unless otherwise clear
Brett Ward Limited - www.brettward.co.uk
Cambridge Accommodation Notice Board - www.brettward.co.uk/canb
Cambridge City Councillor

Time to forget Ebay?
 

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 09:24:29 on Fri, 28
Dec 2007, Tim Ward remarked:

I don't think the PayPal fees are going to put off sellers any more than
the listing charges do

I'm not sure that's the main objection to PayPal. I get the impression
that
the main objection, and the reason I won't use it, is that it simply
doesn't
conduct itself to the standards we expect of a UK bank even in these
benighted times.

In what kinds of way? Their dispute resolution process can be a bit
opaque, but my High Street Bank doesn't even *have* such a process.

I think that you'll find that it does. IIRC, there has to be a notice about
it on every branch premises.



--
FERGUS O'ROURKE
www.irish-lawyer.com
(Not just law stuff)

Time to forget Ebay?
 

In message , at 09:45:56 on Fri, 28 Dec
2007, "Dave Plowman (News)" remarked:


I don't think the PayPal fees are going to put off sellers any more
than the listing charges do

I'm not sure that's the main objection to PayPal. I get the impression
that the main objection, and the reason I won't use it, is that it
simply doesn't conduct itself to the standards we expect of a UK bank
even in these benighted times.

Doesn't that depend on how it is used?

For example, one could just put enough funds into the account to cover
a purchase and take out any balance after making a sale.

Indeed. Or if you prefer to do it via a credit card get one solely for use
with Paypal.

What is the risk you are trying to avert? That Paypal makes an
unauthorised withdrawal from a credit card, and that the CC company
refuses to chargeback the transaction? Both seem very unlikely.

I'd just add the one major loss I've had with Ebay - and really the only
loss - was buying something and paying cash on delivery by the seller. It
was an secondhand engine and not in the condition as described. But I'm
not sure paying by any other method would have helped in this
circumstance.

It's just like buying at a car boot sale. Why would you expect anything
different buying in cash from a stranger?

I've not had any problems with Paypal despite using it for about 400
transactions. Certainly the *obvious* scammers don't use it - they
usually insist on Western Union.

And there's a reason for that!

As for "transactions gone bad" [1], the only one I had was for one of
these new categories (ie Software). It did end up being a failure of
eBay's processes because the item was not as described (but not
extremely so, it wasn't a counterfeit for example) and yet as a result
of I assume someone else complaining, the trader was evicted from eBay
at which point it's impossible to view the item listing any more, so
off-eBay dispute resolution is tricky [2]. That *is* an area I think
they should improve upon.

[1] Other than things turning up late, damaged, or not as described [3],
none of which is PayPal/eBay's fault, and for which the remedies will
often lie in the physical rather than online world if the seller is
intransigent.

[2] Moral: Print off a hard copy of any listing that really matters to
you.

[3] One of the things I've learnt is that "untested" is often code for
"we have tested it, and it definitely isn't working". But that's back to
car boot sale politics again.
--
Roland Perry

Time to forget Ebay?
 

In message 4774cb49@qaanaaq, at 10:09:13 on Fri, 28 Dec 2007, Andy
Hall remarked:
Just as the Internet allows people to be their own publisher, and
their own Travel Agent, it now lets become their own CC-accepting
retailer. All these activities come with extra things to think about,
whether the person believes it or not.

Fair enough.

However, everybody does understand the rules on going in (or should
have read them) and therefore should act accordingly.

It's the same as if I buy something as a consumer vs. buying something
as a business. Different rules apply.

We seem to be in agreement then :)

But some people don't seem to understand unspoken "rules". Like those
traders who allow employees to use the company account from time to time
to sell personal items. Can get a bit confusing, and could be a bit of a
grey area. I wonder what would happen in a real-world shop in that
situation?
--
Roland Perry

Time to forget Ebay?
 

Tim Ward wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
The ... prevention of fraud is very important to us

But less important than protecting the privacy of the fraudster.


Agreed - I bought something for about 20 quid some weeks ago and paid by
PayPal and the item never arrived. (Seller never responded to any
emails from me - clearly crooked). Sure, you can invoke PayPal's
wonderful protection policy, but that only works if the buyer has funds
in his PayPal account, and clearly any fraudster with a bit of nows will
withdraw as soon as anything is credited.

I can't do a credit-card chargeback as the transaction is below 100
quid, and the seller has incomplete address details on file with ebay so
a Small Claim isn't possible.

Ebay simply aren't interested, and are still collecting selling fees
from this character, so they're happy, while the bloke is still selling
the same fairly unusual item on ebay (ie a one-off item relisted
multiple times) with impunity.

David

Time to forget Ebay?
 

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:


Following on from our announcement on 10th August 2007 we wanted to
let you know that from mid-January we'll be expanding our ongoing
efforts to protect eBay buyers and sellers by only allowing PayPal to
be offered as a payment option on certain listings.


Were those the *actual* words used by Ebay? If so, they say the opposite of
what they really mean, which is "by allowing *only* PayPal to be offered"
rather than "by only allowing PayPal to be offered".

It's time they learned to express things in clear English!
--
Cheers,
Roger
______
Email address maintained for newsgroup use only, and not regularly
monitored.. Messages sent to it may not be read for several weeks.
PLEASE REPLY TO NEWSGROUP!

Time to forget Ebay?
 

Tim Ward wrote:
"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 09:22:51 on Fri, 28
Dec 2007, Tim Ward remarked:
The ... prevention of fraud is very important to us
But less important than protecting the privacy of the fraudster.
How are you getting on with that?

Nowhere.

What law do you think the fraudster has broken by opening an account in
your company's name?

Not clear, but that's not the point. The only motivation for opening an
account in my company's name can have been to defraud someone else - it's
*prevention* of *this* crime that I was trying to achieve. And the real
point ... this would result in hassle for me to cope with.

Have you tried asking them to send you the userid and password for the
account, as presumably you can demonstrate that you are an officer of your
company. Then you'll be able to see the details for yourself.

They have made it absolutely clear that they won't give me any information
about their customer who has opened an account and who might have
accidentally mistyped the wrong company name and address when they did so.

Companies House have advised me to report this to the police but I'm not
sure how to do so in a fashion that they will either understand or do
anything about.


Ring our friends at 'Parkside' and ask for the Economic Crime Unit. You
might also find a call to Trading Standards worthwhile.

Time to forget Ebay?
 

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 09:24:29 on Fri, 28
Dec 2007, Tim Ward remarked:

I don't think the PayPal fees are going to put off sellers any more than
the listing charges do

I'm not sure that's the main objection to PayPal. I get the impression
that
the main objection, and the reason I won't use it, is that it simply
doesn't
conduct itself to the standards we expect of a UK bank even in these
benighted times.

In what kinds of way?

There are plenty of horror stories on the web.

Their dispute resolution process can be a bit opaque, but my High Street
Bank doesn't even *have* such a process.

My bank has the following, which PayPal is reputed not to have, or at least
does not absolutely clearly visibly have all of:

(1) A fax number to which I can fax a complaint and expect a probable
response from a real human being within a few days.

(2) A phone number which I can ring and guarantee an instant response from a
real human being, and who in my experience will understand the question and
provide the requested action without problem at the first time of asking.

(3) A named manager who will own any problems with my accounts.

(4) A physical address to which I can conveniently travel and jump up and
down until they fix whatever might be the issue.

(5) A requirement to behave in accordance with UK banking laws and
regulation and codes of conduct.

(6) A clearly identified UK business which I can sue in the English courts
under English law if needed.

They also have no documented policy of doing the following:

(7) Freezing my accounts at the whim of some fraudster I've never heard of.

(8) Moving money around between my bank and credit card accounts without my
say-so.

That's the bank I use for my business accounts and some personal accounts.
Another personal account with another bank is a postal account: that doesn't
give me (3) (except that I have in the past had personal attention from the
MD), and instead of a fax number I have a secure online messaging system,
but essentially I get the same features.

--
Tim Ward - posting as an individual unless otherwise clear
Brett Ward Limited - www.brettward.co.uk
Cambridge Accommodation Notice Board - www.brettward.co.uk/canb
Cambridge City Councillor

Time to forget Ebay?
 

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...

But some people don't seem to understand unspoken "rules". Like those
traders who allow employees to use the company account from time to time
to sell personal items. Can get a bit confusing, and could be a bit of a
grey area. I wonder what would happen in a real-world shop in that
situation?

The court would have to decide whether the purchaser reasonably believed
that it was a consumer transaction? And if so hold the company liable as if
for a consumer transaction?

--
Tim Ward - posting as an individual unless otherwise clear
Brett Ward Limited - www.brettward.co.uk
Cambridge Accommodation Notice Board - www.brettward.co.uk/canb
Cambridge City Councillor

Time to forget Ebay?
 

On Fri, 28 Dec 2007 10:31:45 GMT, Lobster
wrote:

Tim Ward wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
The ... prevention of fraud is very important to us

But less important than protecting the privacy of the fraudster.


Agreed - I bought something for about 20 quid some weeks ago and paid by
PayPal and the item never arrived. (Seller never responded to any
emails from me - clearly crooked). Sure, you can invoke PayPal's
wonderful protection policy, but that only works if the buyer has funds
in his PayPal account, and clearly any fraudster with a bit of nows will
withdraw as soon as anything is credited.

I can't do a credit-card chargeback as the transaction is below 100
quid, and the seller has incomplete address details on file with ebay so
a Small Claim isn't possible.

Are credit Card companies accepting that payment by Paypal using a CC
is a a normal CC transaction ?
I thought that they didn't accept this as the payment was firstly to
Paypal and then to the seller .

Time to forget Ebay?
 

In article ,
Roland Perry wrote:
I'd just add the one major loss I've had with Ebay - and really the only
loss - was buying something and paying cash on delivery by the seller. It
was an secondhand engine and not in the condition as described. But I'm
not sure paying by any other method would have helped in this
circumstance.

It's just like buying at a car boot sale. Why would you expect anything
different buying in cash from a stranger?

Well in this case ebay are the publisher and responsible for the ads they
carry. I went through their disputes procedure but after a few standard
responses from them it fizzled out. And of course the whole idea of the
feedback system is you're not buying from an unknown stranger - as at say
a car boot sale.

--
*Change is inevitable, except from a vending machine*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Time to forget Ebay?
 

On 2007-12-28 10:12:12 +0000, Roland Perry said:

In message 4774ca6b@qaanaaq, at 10:05:31 on Fri, 28 Dec 2007, Andy
Hall remarked:

Nobody *has* to use Ebay. The world did function perfectly well before
they came on the scene and there are other choices.
eBay is very good for both buying new items and recycling used items.
To that extent it is a huge improvement. It has saved me lots of money
by finding "hard to get" items without having to fruitlessly visit
dozens of shops.

Yes I can understand that, but it's still not a "must have" - i.e. they
are not the only route to buying food and medicines.

If that's your only criterion, then most of civilisation is unnecessary.

Stretch it further if you like, but Ebay is not a "must have".

Time to forget Ebay?
 

In message , at 10:16:42 on Fri, 28
Dec 2007, Tim Ward remarked:

The ... prevention of fraud is very important to us

But less important than protecting the privacy of the fraudster.

How are you getting on with that?

Nowhere.

See below.

What law do you think the fraudster has broken by opening an account in
your company's name?

Not clear, but that's not the point. The only motivation for opening an
account in my company's name can have been to defraud someone else - it's
*prevention* of *this* crime that I was trying to achieve. And the real
point ... this would result in hassle for me to cope with.

Data Protection law (assuming for a moment it's clear whose law) doesn't
really have a concept for giving away personal data as a way for
vigilantes to prevent potential future crimes. Even the police rarely
ask for information until *after* a crime has been committed, as it's
difficult to demonstrate need in the context of "prevention".

Have you tried asking them to send you the userid and password for the
account, as presumably you can demonstrate that you are an officer of your
company. Then you'll be able to see the details for yourself.

They have made it absolutely clear that they won't give me any information
about their customer who has opened an account and who might have
accidentally mistyped the wrong company name and address when they did so.

Is that a transcription of the reason they've given?

Have they admitted that the letter is genuine, and if you've told them
the company name and company address are wrong have they accepted that
and have they agreed to mark the account as Company Name "Unknown" and
Address "Unknown"?

Companies House have advised me to report this to the police but I'm not
sure how to do so in a fashion that they will either understand or do
anything about.

I think you should ask Companies House what grounds they recommend you
report this, as it's not at all clear.
--
Roland Perry

Time to forget Ebay?
 

On 28 Dec, 09:41, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 09:24:29 on Fri, 28
Dec 2007, Tim Ward remarked:

I don't think the PayPal fees are going to put off sellers any more than
the listing charges do

I'm not sure that's the main objection to PayPal. I get the impression that
the main objection, and the reason I won't use it, is that it simply doesn't
conduct itself to the standards we expect of a UK bank even in these
benighted times.

In what kinds of way? Their dispute resolution process can be a bit
opaque, but my High Street Bank doesn't even *have* such a process.
--
Roland Perry

Dispute resolution opaque ? Non-existent I'd say. Earlier this year I
bought a camera on Ebay and paid with Paypal. Depite assurances that
the camera was in perfect condition it was in fact in rag order.
Seller refused to take it back and offered derisory discount. On Ebay/
Paypal advice I posted it back using their recommended postal method.
Despite this when the seller didn't cough up Papal said they had
insufficient proof of delivery of the returned item. End of story.
Closed door. Worse than dealing with "We don't do refunds"-Ryanair who
scammed me by charging double price for two tickets one time and that
was their response. So I ended up paying for the camera and postage
and the return postage and got sfa.

If anyone on this group thinks Ebay/Paypal gives a tupenny f**k about
their customers thay are living in La La Land.

If anyone thinks they give a tupenny f**k about counterfeit goods they
are living in La La Land. Despite having pointed out to them by an art
expert that signed sketchs on sale were dated two years AFTER the
death of the artist concerned they refused to pull the auction.

Do a Google on Ebay Sucks.

The only bright light is that apparently Amazon are now making in-
roads into their market

Paul Mc Cann

Time to forget Ebay?
 

In article ,
Stuart B writes:
Are credit Card companies accepting that payment by Paypal using a CC
is a a normal CC transaction ?

No. They warned recently that payment to Paypal was to be treated as
a cash advance to top up another cash account for protection purposes
(although they don't seem to charge the extra cash percentage) and you
might want to think carefully before giving paypal a continuous
authority on your cards.

I thought that they didn't accept this as the payment was firstly to
Paypal and then to the seller .

I think it was a bit vague before Paypal left UK legal jusitiction,
but was made clearer subsequently.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Time to forget Ebay?
 

On Fri, 28 Dec 2007 08:31:16 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:

Too many people are being ripped off by rogue sellers, and the PayPal
restriction is actually so that sellers are better monitored ...

If only, eBay has a serious problem with the "sellor is always in the
right".

... and refunds can be given to buyers more easily if there's a problem
later on.

I suggest you go off and read *all* the small print relating to PayPals
various "buyer protection" programs. There are an awful lot of exclusions,
get outs and weasel words that many transactions will fall foul of. Like
the item has to be sent via an "trackable online proof of delivery"
service. I'm reasonably certain that Royal Mails Recorded Delivery does
not count as it is not an online *trackable* service.

A buyer is better off paying by credit card (maybe via PayPal) and getting
the refund from them rather than ****ing about with PayPal.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

Time to forget Ebay?
 

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...

They have made it absolutely clear that they won't give me any information
about their customer who has opened an account and who might have
accidentally mistyped the wrong company name and address when they did so.

Is that a transcription of the reason they've given?

Not word for word, but pretty much what they said.

Have they admitted that the letter is genuine,

By implication yes.

and if you've told them the company name and company address are wrong
have they accepted that and have they agreed to mark the account as
Company Name "Unknown" and Address "Unknown"?

They have refused to tell me whether they are going to take any action and
if so what as this would involve breaching the privacy of their customer,
the fraudster. Other than I think they said they would contact the customer
and ask them to check that they hadn't made an error in typing their company
name and address.

Companies House have advised me to report this to the police but I'm not
sure how to do so in a fashion that they will either understand or do
anything about.

I think you should ask Companies House what grounds they recommend you
report this, as it's not at all clear.

It's maybe the case that telling lies of the form "I have something to do
with this company" would be difficult to pin down as a crime. But I bet you
can't imagine, any more than I can, any reason why someone might do this if
they were not intending to use this false identity in the commission of some
future crime.

However this sort of thing causes endless hassle, as one has to take
pre-emptive action to avoid the fraudster stealing the company or the
company's bank accounts or the company's domain or web site ... what have I
left out of this list? who else should I have contacted about this?

--
Tim Ward - posting as an individual unless otherwise clear
Brett Ward Limited - www.brettward.co.uk
Cambridge Accommodation Notice Board - www.brettward.co.uk/canb
Cambridge City Councillor

Time to forget Ebay?
 

On 28 Dec, 08:31, Roland Perry wrote:

I don't think the PayPal fees are going to put off sellers any more than
the listing charges do, although I agree that it's slightly less
convenient for people selling a one-off item in those categories.

I took Paypal when I first started selling on eBay. If you're selling
small items, you lose a high percentage pf your sale price to Paypal,
taking into account the flat fee as well as the percentage charge.
Added to the straight eBay costs it all eats into your profit. I
stopped taking Paypal, and have never had any problems with buyers'
willingness to provide cheques.

I see an awful lot of auctions where the seller expressly won't take
Paypal, for this very reason. Often it's couched in euphemistic terms,
as eBay have a habit of removing listings containing text that they
don't like.

There may well be a security benefit to using Paypal, but let's be
under no illusion that eBay's motivation for doing this is any
different from their motivation for doing anything else - to milk you
for as much money as possible while giving you a warm glowy feeling
about "community" and "membership". Nice work if you can get it.

Regards
Richard

Regards
Richard

Time to forget Ebay?
 

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 00:56:00 on Fri,
28 Dec 2007, The Natural Philosopher remarked:
Basically I can see that unless you have paypal, you won't be ABLE to
use ebay shortly.

Isn't this in contravention of some monopoly legislation somewhere

I don't think the PayPal fees are going to put off sellers any more than
the listing charges do, although I agree that it's slightly less
convenient for people selling a one-off item in those categories. Then
there's the other side of the coin - I won't buy off people who refuse
to take PayPal, as it means a huge delay while I mail a cheque to them
and they wait for it to clear. Very few sellers have direct Credit Card
Merchant facilities, and not PayPal. Not accepting PayPal is a huge
alarm bell.

You seem to be glossing over the main issue here - which is consumer
protection. Too many people are being ripped off by rogue sellers, and
the PayPal restriction is actually so that sellers are better monitored
and refunds can be given to buyers more easily if there's a problem
later on.

In any event I have yet to find a transaction (as either buyer or
seller) where there has been any objection at all to paying by
cash-on-collection [even if the sale was "PayPal only" in theory].
Although both parties have to realise that the transaction is final at
that point (like buying at a car boot sale) and subsequent problems are
most unlikely to be sorted out.


I won't deal paypal only. End of story. If ebay makes it compulsory I
won't use ebay.


Had too many problems with them.

Time to forget Ebay?
 

In message 4774d680@qaanaaq, at 10:57:04 on Fri, 28 Dec 2007, Andy
Hall remarked:
Yes I can understand that, but it's still not a "must have" - i.e.
they are not the only route to buying food and medicines.
If that's your only criterion, then most of civilisation is
unnecessary.

Stretch it further if you like, but Ebay is not a "must have".

I really don't see what your point is. eBay is very high up my list of
"very useful things I use the Internet for", and indeed many other
people's. What's your problem with that?
--
Roland Perry

Time to forget Ebay?
 

Lobster wrote:
Tim Ward wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
The ... prevention of fraud is very important to us

But less important than protecting the privacy of the fraudster.


Agreed - I bought something for about 20 quid some weeks ago and paid by
PayPal and the item never arrived. (Seller never responded to any
emails from me - clearly crooked). Sure, you can invoke PayPal's
wonderful protection policy, but that only works if the buyer has funds
in his PayPal account, and clearly any fraudster with a bit of nows will
withdraw as soon as anything is credited.

I can't do a credit-card chargeback as the transaction is below 100
quid, and the seller has incomplete address details on file with ebay so
a Small Claim isn't possible.

Ebay simply aren't interested, and are still collecting selling fees
from this character, so they're happy, while the bloke is still selling
the same fairly unusual item on ebay (ie a one-off item relisted
multiple times) with impunity.

David
Exactly.