Yes that question again
I have just about finished the refurbishment of my house the utility
room being the last which houses the Boiler.
I have replaced all the rads and a new quick recovery cylinder I have
done all the work myself which together with the water pressure being
abysmal here I have stuck with a vented system.
The original boiler is an old Glow-worm space saver it still works ok
but has a limited like expectancy so im going to have it replaced as
the utility room is being redone.

I know zilch about boilers, ;(
I am specifically looking for a heatonly boiler
thee seems to be 18 or more manufactures to choose from. All I am
looking for is reliability and efficiency as almost all seem to be A
rated and the price difference between models is not that large I
could really really do with some impartial advice so I don't end up
with a potty supreme type experience.

On Sun, 02 Dec 2007 14:10:32 +0000, Phil Gardner wrote:

I know zilch about boilers, ;(
I am specifically looking for a heatonly boiler
thee seems to be 18 or more manufactures to choose from. All I am
looking for is reliability and efficiency as almost all seem to be A

And what have you learned from googling this group for "new boiler
reliability efficiency"?

--
John Stumbles

Women always generalise

"John Stumbles" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 02 Dec 2007 14:10:32 +0000, Phil Gardner wrote:

I know zilch about boilers, ;(
I am specifically looking for a heatonly boiler
thee seems to be 18 or more manufactures to choose from. All I am
looking for is reliability and efficiency as almost all seem to be A

And what have you learned from googling this group for "new boiler
reliability efficiency"?

--
John Stumbles

Women always generalise

Damn it!#

I lost.

My money was on dd coming out of hibernation to answer this one first.

On Sun, 02 Dec 2007 14:10:32 +0000, Phil Gardner wrote:

Yes that question again
I have just about finished the refurbishment of my house the utility
room being the last which houses the Boiler. I have replaced all the
rads and a new quick recovery cylinder I have done all the work myself
which together with the water pressure being abysmal here I have stuck
with a vented system. The original boiler is an old Glow-worm space
saver it still works ok but has a limited like expectancy so im going to
have it replaced as the utility room is being redone.

I know zilch about boilers, ;(
I am specifically looking for a heatonly boiler
thee seems to be 18 or more manufactures to choose from. All I am
looking for is reliability and efficiency as almost all seem to be A
rated and the price difference between models is not that large I could
really really do with some impartial advice so I don't end up with a
potty supreme type experience.

Not withstanding the FAQ on the subject and some pages in the wiki.


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html

On Sun, 02 Dec 2007 22:51:28 +0000, Ed Sirett wrote:

Not withstanding the FAQ on the subject and some pages in the wiki.

Which a google search would have thrown up. IF the OP had been doing his
homework :-|


--
John Stumbles

Fundamentalist agnostic

On Sun, 2 Dec 2007 22:51:28 +0000 (UTC), Ed Sirett
wrote:



I know zilch about boilers, ;(
I am specifically looking for a heatonly boiler
thee seems to be 18 or more manufactures to choose from. All I am
looking for is reliability and efficiency as almost all seem to be A
rated and the price difference between models is not that large I could
really really do with some impartial advice so I don't end up with a
potty supreme type experience.

Not withstanding the FAQ on the subject and some pages in the wiki.

Hmm
I had almost decided on buying a Worcester-Bosch but having read your
comments re Aluminium heat exchangers I was again perplexed as to the
best choice.
You don't name Names which for someone with zero knowledge of boilers
or how the many makes are constructed doesn't realty help in making an
informed choice.
I do however realise that recommending a specific boiler would be
impossible, but a hint as to which makers spare parts are
unrealistically expensive would be helpful, I found a 24v timer for
one model priced at £230.
The only info I have found on the net regarding reliability is this
http://tinyurl.com/2kfsb9
it seems BG only fit Vaillant and Worcester Bosch and Baxi/Potterton
and Ideal.
From my own research Ideal does not seem to be a highly regarded
boiler at all; I would not buy a Baxi/pot on principle after the
Suprima ripoff.
You have cast doubts over WB heat exchanger, if BG have got it that
wrong on 3 out of their 4 choices were does the leave Vaillant, which
was my second choice after WB.
BTW the rest of your article on Choosing a Boiler was very informative
as to the different systems available, but a few of the links are 404.

On Sun, 02 Dec 2007 19:28:01 GMT, John Stumbles
wrote:

On Sun, 02 Dec 2007 14:10:32 +0000, Phil Gardner wrote:

I know zilch about boilers, ;(
I am specifically looking for a heatonly boiler
thee seems to be 18 or more manufactures to choose from. All I am
looking for is reliability and efficiency as almost all seem to be A

And what have you learned from googling this group for "new boiler
reliability efficiency"?


Not much
a typical example
http://tinyurl.com/2rf4lg
For the value of your reply

On Mon, 03 Dec 2007 15:17:04 GMT, Phil Gardner wrote:

You don't name Names which for someone with zero knowledge of boilers
or how the many makes are constructed doesn't realty help in making an
informed choice.

No. Ed recently said that he thought the boilers he was fitting would last 30
years but seemed unwilling to name them !

Andy

"Phil Gardner" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 2 Dec 2007 22:51:28 +0000 (UTC), Ed Sirett
wrote:



I am specifically looking for a heatonly boiler
thee seems to be 18 or more manufactures to choose from. All I am
looking for is reliability and efficiency as almost all seem to be A
rated and the price difference between models is not that large I
could
really really do with some impartial advice so I don't end up with a
potty supreme type experience.

Not withstanding the FAQ on the subject and some pages in the wiki.

Hmm
I had almost decided on buying a Worcester-Bosch but having read your
comments re Aluminium heat exchangers I was again perplexed as to the
best choice.

This has me puzzled, too, particularly the reference in Ed's FAQ to
Silicon coated aluminium. It seems a very unlikely concept to me,
though various makers do seem to highlight the existence of silicon in
their aluminium alloys. I assume this is to give a faint aura of high
technology, as none mention other, equally common and important,
alloying elements.

The counter argument I have come across is that stainless steel is an
intrinsically unsuitable material for heat exchangers due to its poor
thermal conductivity. Most designs therefore compromise by reducing the
size of water passages, increasing the probability of blockages. Some
use a spiral of stainless steel tube with a horizontal axis, each turn
therefore providing a place for air bubbles to become trapped. Another
design fault which I've seen mentioned, though I couldn't tell whether
it referred to stainless steel or cast aluminium heat exchangers, was
that multiple parallel paths are provided for the water. If one becomes
blocked, there is no means of rodding it out, or even forcing water or
cleanser through it, since it will always take the easier parallel path.

Worcester Bosch, Vokera, and Ideal use cast aluminium and Vaillant,
Potterton, and Baxi uses stainless steel for their SEDBUK A boilers.
Glow worm use aluminium for their Flexicom, but stainless for their
Ultracom. Apparently many makers, from budget brand to Vaillant, use
Giannoni heat exchangers.

I suggested in a previous post that more emphasis should be placed on
the minimum output a boiler can be
modulated to, which varies widely from type to type. A Flexicom 30cx
goes down to 9.3kW, an Ecotec 831 goes to 8.7, but an Ultracom 30cx goes
to 4.95. Shouldn't a low minimum help part-load efficiency? 6kW must
surely be plenty of output for many houses for most of the time, so is
there much point to clever controls which talk to the boiler, only to
get an "on-off" answer?

So I've not made my mind up yet. Worcester Bosch may win for the next
installation - for my in-laws - since my mother-in-law has a thing about
Bosch. And on the "no-one was ever sacked for buying an IBM"
principle...


--
Kevin Poole
**Use current month and year to reply (e.g. )***

On Mon, 03 Dec 2007 18:45:18 +0000, Andy Cap wrote:

On Mon, 03 Dec 2007 15:17:04 GMT, Phil Gardner wrote:

You don't name Names which for someone with zero knowledge of boilers or
how the many makes are constructed doesn't realty help in making an
informed choice.

No. Ed recently said that he thought the boilers he was fitting would
last 30 years but seemed unwilling to name them !

Andy

I think any of the makes with stainless heat exchangers should last a
very long time, if correctly installed and operated. It's quite possible
that Silicon coated Alloy is fine I just am not 100% sure. So That would
add WB and Boulter Bruderus.

I'd be happy to fit WB, Vaillant, Glow-Worm (based on experience) and
Eco Hometec, Viessman based on their spec. and other peoples comments.

Bottom of the market (probably not possible to say who's the lowest)
Vokera, Biasi, Heatline, Ravenheat, (rebadged boilers sold in Sheds),
Chaffoteaux, Saunier Duval.

Mid Market are Ideal, Baxi/Main/Potterton, Ariston,

Unsu Alpha used to be crap but may be they have moved up market.
F & P are new to me but the spec looks poor.


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html

On Mon, 3 Dec 2007 20:51:47 +0000 (UTC), Ed Sirett
wrote:

I think any of the makes with stainless heat exchangers should last a
very long time, if correctly installed and operated. It's quite possible
that Silicon coated Alloy is fine I just am not 100% sure. So That would
add WB and Boulter Bruderus.

I'd be happy to fit WB, Vaillant, Glow-Worm (based on experience) and
Eco Hometec, Viessman based on their spec. and other peoples comments.

Bottom of the market (probably not possible to say who's the lowest)
Vokera, Biasi, Heatline, Ravenheat, (rebadged boilers sold in Sheds),
Chaffoteaux, Saunier Duval.

Mid Market are Ideal, Baxi/Main/Potterton, Ariston,

Unsu Alpha used to be crap but may be they have moved up market.
F & P are new to me but the spec looks poor.

Thanks for that Ed. It's good to know what those with REAL experience think.

Andy

On Mon, 3 Dec 2007 20:32:28 -0000, "Autolycus"
wrote:


snip very interesting post thank you, I can now see why most
manufactures insist on a power flush.


Apparently many makers, from budget brand to Vaillant, use
Giannoni heat exchangers.


Ahhh googling this I found
http://www.gas-news.co.uk/archive/storage/2007/comment/1006.htm
and they are plastic outer cased


So I've not made my mind up yet. Worcester Bosch may win for the next
installation - for my in-laws - since my mother-in-law has a thing about
Bosch. And on the "no-one was ever sacked for buying an IBM"
principle...

I think I will do the same, the new Vaillant looks nice but the
electronics seem to be OTT and I can't say I was impressed at all by
the Giannoni heat exchanger.

On Mon, 3 Dec 2007 20:51:47 +0000 (UTC), Ed Sirett
wrote:

On Mon, 03 Dec 2007 18:45:18 +0000, Andy Cap wrote:

You don't name Names which for someone with zero knowledge of boilers or
how the many makes are constructed doesn't realty help in making an
informed choice.

No. Ed recently said that he thought the boilers he was fitting would
last 30 years but seemed unwilling to name them !

Andy

I think any of the makes with stainless heat exchangers should last a
very long time, if correctly installed and operated. It's quite possible
that Silicon coated Alloy is fine I just am not 100% sure. So That would
add WB and Boulter Bruderus.

I'd be happy to fit WB, Vaillant, Glow-Worm (based on experience) and
Eco Hometec, Viessman based on their spec. and other peoples comments.

Bottom of the market (probably not possible to say who's the lowest)
Vokera, Biasi, Heatline, Ravenheat, (rebadged boilers sold in Sheds),
Chaffoteaux, Saunier Duval.

Mid Market are Ideal, Baxi/Main/Potterton, Ariston,

Unsu Alpha used to be crap but may be they have moved up market.
F & P are new to me but the spec looks poor.


thanks for that
now at least anyone googling this subject on here with no previous
purchasing experience of boilers will know where the Mercedes and Lada
of the boiler world lie.

In article ,
Phil Gardner wrote:
now at least anyone googling this subject on here with no previous
purchasing experience of boilers will know where the Mercedes and Lada
of the boiler world lie.

Not sure how good a simile that is given Merc's reputation for reliability
over the past few years. ;-)

--
*The first rule of holes: If you are in one, stop digging!

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 14:23:52 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Phil Gardner wrote:
now at least anyone googling this subject on here with no previous
purchasing experience of boilers will know where the Mercedes and Lada
of the boiler world lie.

Not sure how good a simile that is given Merc's reputation for reliability
over the past few years. ;-)

Would seem to fit in with modern boiler reliability though.
Ive got an older S class which has been faultless in over 245K,
Much googling on this subject, it seem even Viessman are making a
cheap down to a price boiler for the UK only market,
with a corresponding reliability question mark re its electronics.

On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 15:09:48 GMT, Phil Gardner wrote:

Would seem to fit in with modern boiler reliability though.
Ive got an older S class which has been faultless in over 245K,
Much googling on this subject, it seem even Viessman are making a
cheap down to a price boiler for the UK only market,
with a corresponding reliability question mark re its electronics.

Perhaps it's because we remember the cast iron lumps that ran for decades,
virtually maintenance free, without any of the unnecessary, yet extremely
lucrative electronic paraphernalia. It's a con I tell you ! ;-)

Andy

In article ,
Andy Cap wrote:
Perhaps it's because we remember the cast iron lumps that ran for
decades, virtually maintenance free, without any of the unnecessary, yet
extremely lucrative electronic paraphernalia. It's a con I tell you !
;-)

Not really. Electronics make a big difference to the efficiency of a
boiler in the same way as they do to car engines.

--
*Why isn't there a special name for the back of your knee?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 16:27:43 +0000, Andy Cap
wrote:

On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 15:09:48 GMT, Phil Gardner wrote:

Would seem to fit in with modern boiler reliability though.
Ive got an older S class which has been faultless in over 245K,
Much googling on this subject, it seem even Viessman are making a
cheap down to a price boiler for the UK only market,
with a corresponding reliability question mark re its electronics.

Perhaps it's because we remember the cast iron lumps that ran for decades,
virtually maintenance free, without any of the unnecessary, yet extremely
lucrative electronic paraphernalia. It's a con I tell you ! ;-)

Andy

Yes but its difficult to know which devours more energy in a year my
W126 or the old Glow-worm boiler.
One of them has to go.

On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 16:36:59 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Andy Cap wrote:
Perhaps it's because we remember the cast iron lumps that ran for
decades, virtually maintenance free, without any of the unnecessary, yet
extremely lucrative electronic paraphernalia. It's a con I tell you !
;-)

Not really. Electronics make a big difference to the efficiency of a
boiler in the same way as they do to car engines.

But how much does a 20% improvement in efficiency cost to recover when compared
with the extra maintaince and more frequent replacement costs ?

Andy

In article ,
Andy Cap wrote:
On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 16:36:59 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article , Andy Cap
wrote:
Perhaps it's because we remember the cast iron lumps that ran for
decades, virtually maintenance free, without any of the unnecessary,
yet extremely lucrative electronic paraphernalia. It's a con I tell
you ! ;-)

Not really. Electronics make a big difference to the efficiency of a
boiler in the same way as they do to car engines.

But how much does a 20% improvement in efficiency cost to recover when
compared with the extra maintaince and more frequent replacement costs ?

There shouldn't be any more maintenance. Repairs/replacements depend on
how well it is made - rather the same as with anything.

--
*Heart attacks... God's revenge for eating his animal friends

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Mon, 03 Dec 2007 15:32:12 GMT someone who may be Phil Gardner
wrote this:-

And what have you learned from googling this group for "new boiler
reliability efficiency"?

Not much

It may be worth pondering on this assertion and what it tells us.

a typical example
http://tinyurl.com/2rf4lg

Why would anyone click on something they have no idea where it is
going?

For the value of your reply

Provide a real URL and I might discuss this further.



--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 17:51:44 +0000 (GMT) someone who may be "Dave
Plowman (News)" wrote this:-

But how much does a 20% improvement in efficiency cost to recover when
compared with the extra maintaince and more frequent replacement costs ?

There shouldn't be any more maintenance. Repairs/replacements depend on
how well it is made - rather the same as with anything.

Some people call repairs/replacement maintenance. Others, it seems,
call them something else:-)



--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

Phil Gardner wrote:
On Mon, 3 Dec 2007 20:51:47 +0000 (UTC), Ed Sirett
wrote:

I think any of the makes with stainless heat exchangers should last a
very long time, if correctly installed and operated. It's quite possible
that Silicon coated Alloy is fine I just am not 100% sure. So That would
add WB and Boulter Bruderus.

I'd be happy to fit WB, Vaillant, Glow-Worm (based on experience) and
Eco Hometec, Viessman based on their spec. and other peoples comments.

Bottom of the market (probably not possible to say who's the lowest)
Vokera, Biasi, Heatline, Ravenheat, (rebadged boilers sold in Sheds),
Chaffoteaux, Saunier Duval.

Mid Market are Ideal, Baxi/Main/Potterton, Ariston,

Unsu Alpha used to be crap but may be they have moved up market.
F & P are new to me but the spec looks poor.


thanks for that
now at least anyone googling this subject on here with no previous
purchasing experience of boilers will know where the Mercedes and Lada
of the boiler world lie.

A point worth bearing in mind is that buying just on brand alone may not
be enough to avoid a lemon. Many makers will have models from at least a
couple of generations on the market at any one time. This may for
example include purpose designed condensers with corrosion resistant
primary HEs, and down firing burners etc, alongside models from the
previous generation with conventional HE and burner layouts and an
additional condensing HE bolted on at the end. Something like an Ideal
Icos is miles away from a Mexico in technology terms, yet they still do
both.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In message , David Hansen
writes
On Mon, 03 Dec 2007 15:32:12 GMT someone who may be Phil Gardner
wrote this:-

And what have you learned from googling this group for "new boiler
reliability efficiency"?

Not much

It may be worth pondering on this assertion and what it tells us.

a typical example
http://tinyurl.com/2rf4lg

Why would anyone click on something they have no idea where it is
going?

For the value of your reply

Provide a real URL and I might discuss this further.

There's nothing to stop someone posting a long URL and then underneath
post a tinyurl to a completely different site, is there ?


--
geoff

On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 21:08:11 +0000, David Hansen
wrote:

On Mon, 03 Dec 2007 15:32:12 GMT someone who may be Phil Gardner
wrote this:-

And what have you learned from googling this group for "new boiler
reliability efficiency"?

Not much

It may be worth pondering on this assertion and what it tells us.

a typical example
http://tinyurl.com/2rf4lg

Why would anyone click on something they have no idea where it is
going?
Provide a real URL and I might discuss this further.


Please yourself
Frankly if you are that paranoid I don't think we have much to discuss
anyway


P

On Wed, 05 Dec 2007 12:17:41 GMT someone who may be Phil Gardner
wrote this:-

Why would anyone click on something they have no idea where it is
going?
Provide a real URL and I might discuss this further.

Please yourself

I have done so.

Frankly if you are that paranoid I don't think we have much to discuss
anyway

Your loss.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

"David Hansen" wrote in message
...

a typical example
http://tinyurl.com/2rf4lg

Why would anyone click on something they have no idea where it is
going?

I wouldn't necessarily do so. However the url above does tell me where it's
going to redirect me.

clive

On Wed, 05 Dec 2007 13:32:32 +0000, David Hansen
wrote:

On Wed, 05 Dec 2007 12:17:41 GMT someone who may be Phil Gardner
wrote this:-

Why would anyone click on something they have no idea where it is
going?
Provide a real URL and I might discuss this further.

Please yourself

I have done so.

Frankly if you are that paranoid I don't think we have much to discuss
anyway

Your loss.

Having read some of your tedious posts on solar and nuclear energy
im quite confident this loss will not affect my choice of boiler in
any way.

On Wed, 05 Dec 2007 14:57:13 GMT someone who may be Phil Gardner
wrote this:-

Having read some of your tedious posts on solar and nuclear energy

I note that you were unwilling or unable to make any specific
comments on them and simply resorted to a broad attack.

Your loss.

You may have the last word.




--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On Wed, 5 Dec 2007 13:38:10 -0000 someone who may be "Clive George"
wrote this:-

a typical example
http://tinyurl.com/2rf4lg

Why would anyone click on something they have no idea where it is
going?

I wouldn't necessarily do so. However the url above does tell me where it's
going to redirect me.

Not until after one clicks it. Thus when one clicks it one has no
idea where it is going.



--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

"David Hansen" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 5 Dec 2007 13:38:10 -0000 someone who may be "Clive George"
wrote this:-

a typical example
http://tinyurl.com/2rf4lg

Why would anyone click on something they have no idea where it is
going?

I wouldn't necessarily do so. However the url above does tell me where
it's
going to redirect me.

Not until after one clicks it. Thus when one clicks it one has no
idea where it is going.

I click the url. It takes me to a page where it shows me the url to which it
wishes to redirect me. I then click that url - at all points I know where
the next click is going to take me.

I suppose one question is how well do you know tinyurl?

clive

On Wed, 05 Dec 2007 15:37:00 +0000, David Hansen
wrote:

On Wed, 5 Dec 2007 13:38:10 -0000 someone who may be "Clive George"
wrote this:-

a typical example
http://tinyurl.com/2rf4lg

Why would anyone click on something they have no idea where it is
going?

I wouldn't necessarily do so. However the url above does tell me where it's
going to redirect me.

Not until after one clicks it. Thus when one clicks it one has no
idea where it is going.



Are you some kind of psychic paranoid?
Can you tell just by looking at a written URL link what the content
is,
or whether it is redirecting to another url, running suspect scripts
or Active X?
Here is a REAL URL that explains it all
http://uk.geocities.com/f1metrix/
Or is it?

In message , Phil Gardner
writes
some kind of psychic paranoid?

Could you explain what you mean by that term please. A reference to an
Athens accessible journal would be appreciated.

--
Si