My Wife is a member of a sewing group that meets every week at a local
village hall.
They all take along their sewing machines and someone has said that
they should have their machines PAT tested.

Whilst I agree that a regular safety check would do no harm and it
only cost circa 4 or 5 pounds I don't believe that this is an actual
legal requirement..

Unless that is someone knows different...?????

"ac1951" wrote in message
...
My Wife is a member of a sewing group that meets every week at a local
village hall.
They all take along their sewing machines and someone has said that
they should have their machines PAT tested.

Whilst I agree that a regular safety check would do no harm and it
only cost circa 4 or 5 pounds I don't believe that this is an actual
legal requirement..

Unless that is someone knows different...?????

You should check the Terms and Conditions of Hire issued by the village hall
Management or with their Safety Representative.
It is probably a requirement of hire that any equipment bought onto the
premises must be safe, without risk of harm and conforming to relevant
"Safety Regulations".
PAT testing is the best way of ensuring this but the very least you should
do is to get the equipment visualy checked by a "Competent Person"
particulaly concering the condition of the leads and plugs.
John Weale

"ac1951" wrote in message
...
My Wife is a member of a sewing group that meets every week at a
local
village hall.
They all take along their sewing machines and someone has said
that
they should have their machines PAT tested.

Whilst I agree that a regular safety check would do no harm and it
only cost circa 4 or 5 pounds I don't believe that this is an
actual
legal requirement..

Unless that is someone knows different...?????

Does new stuff have to be tested ? - i.e. is it reasonable to assume
that new stuff is safe when bought new ?

Thanks,

Nick

"Nick" wrote in message
...

"ac1951" wrote in message
...
My Wife is a member of a sewing group that meets every week at a local
village hall.
They all take along their sewing machines and someone has said that
they should have their machines PAT tested.

Whilst I agree that a regular safety check would do no harm and it
only cost circa 4 or 5 pounds I don't believe that this is an actual
legal requirement..

Unless that is someone knows different...?????

Does new stuff have to be tested ? - i.e. is it reasonable to assume that
new stuff is safe when bought new ?

Thanks,

Nick

You shouldn't "assume" anything. It depends where it was purchased from or
if it was damaged during transit or is otherwise unsuitable for its intended
use.
If it is "Work Equipment" then you should carry out sufficient checks to
ensure that it is safe to use and conforms to the Provision and Use of Work
Equipment Regulations (PUWER).
Plenty of free information on this from the HSE website:
www.hse.gov.uk/pubns
John Weale

wrote:

On 26 Nov, 19:24, "nightjar" cpb@insert my surname here.me.uk
wrote:

"ac1951" wrote in message

...


My Wife is a member of a sewing group that meets every week at a local
village hall.
They all take along their sewing machines and someone has said that
they should have their machines PAT tested.

Whilst I agree that a regular safety check would do no harm and it
only cost circa 4 or 5 pounds I don't believe that this is an actual
legal requirement..

PAT is not a legal requirement, but is a convenient way to show compliance
with legal requirements. However, unless the sewing group is selling what
they make, I can't see that there are in a workplace or that there are any
legal requirements for H&S that apply to them as a sewing group. OTOH, the
operators of the hall will have H&S obligations and may pass them onto the
users in their terms and conditions of hire.

Colin Bignell


What's happened is that new regs have come into force requiring
village halls and the like to abide by the same safety rules as
workplaces. A certain well-known company is going around charging
large fees for badly cobbled together and alarmist reports which cause
uninformed managers to (a) panic, (b) spend lots of money
unnecessarily, and (c) do things like imposing regulations on
equipment brought onto the premises. All that is actually required is
to prove that you have made an assessment of the situation and
established appropriate procedures.

In practical terms, if sewing machines these days contain electronics,
it's most unwise to apply the large voltages that PAT testers produce,
and a simple visual test of plugs, fuses, and leads is all that should
be done, plus maybe the PAT earth test. Whether you can persuade the
hall managers that that is sufficient, and that it is acceptable for a
"competent person" without a NICIEC 666 on their forehead to do it is
another matter.

I read somewhere in the government speel that it _is_ acceptable to
assume that new equipment is OK until the next round of testing, but
if it come from a boot sale ...!

When I worked at school, I asked what were the requirements of testing
and was told that the _major_ part of the test was visual. As long as
this stage passed the test a rudimentary check was made of the
electrical connections.

Dave

"ac1951" wrote in message
...
My Wife is a member of a sewing group that meets every week at a local
village hall.
They all take along their sewing machines and someone has said that
they should have their machines PAT tested.

Whilst I agree that a regular safety check would do no harm and it
only cost circa 4 or 5 pounds I don't believe that this is an actual
legal requirement..

PAT is not a legal requirement, but is a convenient way to show compliance
with legal requirements. However, unless the sewing group is selling what
they make, I can't see that there are in a workplace or that there are any
legal requirements for H&S that apply to them as a sewing group. OTOH, the
operators of the hall will have H&S obligations and may pass them onto the
users in their terms and conditions of hire.

Colin Bignell

On 26 Nov, 18:24, "nightjar" cpb@insert my surname here.me.uk
wrote:
"ac1951" wrote in message

...

My Wife is a member of a sewing group that meets every week at a local
village hall.
They all take along their sewing machines and someone has said that
they should have their machines PAT tested.

Whilst I agree that a regular safety check would do no harm and it
only cost circa 4 or 5 pounds I don't believe that this is an actual
legal requirement..

PAT is not a legal requirement, but is a convenient way to show compliance
with legal requirements. However, unless the sewing group is selling what
they make, I can't see that there are in a workplace or that there are any
legal requirements for H&S that apply to them as a sewing group. OTOH, the
operators of the hall will have H&S obligations and may pass them onto the
users in their terms and conditions of hire.

Colin Bignell

I suppose at the end of the day PAT testing is as you say a convenient
way of showing compliance and passing the buck should the worst happen

If a tenannt or worker ever recieved a shock from one of my electrical
items I would want the PAT documentation,as it would show a certain
level of dilgence.Which would you rather have to say to a court "I had
a look at the item in question myself and it all seemed fine" or
"heres the PAT test documentation from xyz ltd showing the item was
tested 10 months ago,and was found to be electrically safe".

When looked at from this point of view I can see why most companies/
organisations would want a PAT test done,but I also fear that
sometimes this can takeaway the common sense in some people (ie the
kettle must be safe,it's got a pass sticker on it,never find the
damaged flex)

Martin

In article ,
writes:
In practical terms, if sewing machines these days contain electronics,
it's most unwise to apply the large voltages that PAT testers produce,
and a simple visual test of plugs, fuses, and leads is all that should
be done, plus maybe the PAT earth test. Whether you can persuade the
hall managers that that is sufficient, and that it is acceptable for a
"competent person" without a NICIEC 666 on their forehead to do it is
another matter.

A "competent person" for this purpose is someone with C&G 2377/002
(In-service inspection and Testing of Electrical Equipment) certificate.
This is intended to be attainable by non-electricians, and is actually
not held by many electricians. Prerequisits are the ability to wire a
plug, and knowing the difference between milliohms and megohms (which
is the bit many electricians on the courses struggle with). The
course and exam are done all in one day at a local technical college.
It is normally done with 2377/001 (Management of In-service inspection
and Testing of Electrical Equipment) on the previous day. If you
engage electricians to undertake PAT testing, you should require them
to bring their 2377/002 certificate on the first day and make a copy
of it for your files, and you should hold a 2377/001 certificate.

I read somewhere in the government speel that it _is_ acceptable to
assume that new equipment is OK until the next round of testing, but

This is down to a risk assessment. Generally it's probably true.
A set of rules I drew up for a former employer required no testing
of new computer equipment supplied with a power cord with molded-on
plugs/connectors, providing it had a visual inspection and was
scrapped at 4 years old. (The cost of PAT testing a 4 year old PC
is generally more than it's worth.)

You can do most of a PAT test with no test equipment at all. Most
failures are picked up by the visual inspection, and most of these
can't be picked up by test equipment. Electricians who haven't been
trained to perform PAT tests generally don't do the visual inspection
part -- if you see someone start a PAT test by connecting the
appliance to a tester, that's a really obvious sign they don't know
what they're doing.

if it come from a boot sale ...!

A lot of stuff at boot sales is actually illegal to sell e.g. things
with unsheathed pins on 13A plugs. Ironically, that's not a PAT fail,
but it's an offence to sell anything with such a plug on it under the
Plugs and sockets regulations.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On 26 Nov 2007 22:54:03 GMT, (Andrew
Gabriel) wrote:

In article ,
writes:
In practical terms, if sewing machines these days contain electronics,
it's most unwise to apply the large voltages that PAT testers produce,
and a simple visual test of plugs, fuses, and leads is all that should
be done, plus maybe the PAT earth test. Whether you can persuade the
hall managers that that is sufficient, and that it is acceptable for a
"competent person" without a NICIEC 666 on their forehead to do it is
another matter.

A "competent person" for this purpose is someone with C&G 2377/002
(In-service inspection and Testing of Electrical Equipment) certificate.

I did a PAT course in, ISTR, 1980-something at the Yorkshire
Electricity depot in Leeds, before C&G ran a course, and gained a
certificate from YEB. This was arranged by my employer, who, a year or
two later, decided that outsourcing of testing was much cheaper than
using me.

In later years, the whole system seemed to fall down - we had
equipment many years out of test. We had lots of bases where equipment
was notionally held, but in practice most of the stuff was held in
vehicles or even at officials' homes (or even temporarily loaned to
members of the public!). Rentokil (the contractor) just couldn't cope.
I've no idea what happens these days - I retired (early!) nearly three
years ago.


--
Frank Erskine

"Martin Warby" wrote in message
...
....
I suppose at the end of the day PAT testing is as you say a convenient
way of showing compliance and passing the buck should the worst happen

If a tenannt or worker ever recieved a shock from one of my electrical
items I would want the PAT documentation,as it would show a certain
level of dilgence.Which would you rather have to say to a court "I had
a look at the item in question myself and it all seemed fine" or
"heres the PAT test documentation from xyz ltd showing the item was
tested 10 months ago,and was found to be electrically safe".

I would not expect anything I had inspected to cause a problem, unless it
had been badly mistreated. However, if it did, I would say that I am a
qualified engineer with a number of years' experience in the electricity
supply industry and all portable equipment gets a quick visual inspection
every time I use it and a more formal test (I have my own equipment for both
PAT and installation testing) at regular intervals, as laid down in the risk
assesment.

Colin Bignell

In article
,
ac1951 wrote:
My Wife is a member of a sewing group that meets every week at a local
village hall.
They all take along their sewing machines and someone has said that
they should have their machines PAT tested.

Whilst I agree that a regular safety check would do no harm and it
only cost circa 4 or 5 pounds I don't believe that this is an actual
legal requirement..

Unless that is someone knows different...?????

Would anyone expect the 'hall' to be responsible for someone being injured
while using a machine they'd brought with them? No matter what the cause?

If so I'd have thought the electrical safety to be well down the list.

--
*I yell because I care

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"ac1951" wrote in message
...
My Wife is a member of a sewing group that meets every week at a local
village hall.
They all take along their sewing machines and someone has said that
they should have their machines PAT tested.

Whilst I agree that a regular safety check would do no harm and it
only cost circa 4 or 5 pounds I don't believe that this is an actual
legal requirement..

Unless that is someone knows different...?????

After all those replies I bet you're really glad you asked
(the words stirring and hornets nest spring to mind)
David

On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 11:21:23 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

On 26 Nov, 19:24, "nightjar" cpb@insert my surname here.me.uk
wrote:
"ac1951" wrote in message

...

My Wife is a member of a sewing group that meets every week at a local
village hall.
They all take along their sewing machines and someone has said that
they should have their machines PAT tested.

Whilst I agree that a regular safety check would do no harm and it
only cost circa 4 or 5 pounds I don't believe that this is an actual
legal requirement..

PAT is not a legal requirement, but is a convenient way to show compliance
with legal requirements. However, unless the sewing group is selling what
they make, I can't see that there are in a workplace or that there are any
legal requirements for H&S that apply to them as a sewing group. OTOH, the
operators of the hall will have H&S obligations and may pass them onto the
users in their terms and conditions of hire.

Colin Bignell

What's happened is that new regs have come into force requiring
village halls and the like to abide by the same safety rules as
workplaces. A certain well-known company is going around charging
large fees for badly cobbled together and alarmist reports which cause
uninformed managers to (a) panic, (b) spend lots of money
unnecessarily, and (c) do things like imposing regulations on
equipment brought onto the premises. All that is actually required is
to prove that you have made an assessment of the situation and
established appropriate procedures.



In practical terms, if sewing machines these days contain electronics,
it's most unwise to apply the large voltages that PAT testers produce,
and a simple visual test of plugs, fuses, and leads is all that should
be done, plus maybe the PAT earth test.

Nonsense.

A PAT test doesn't use any voltage higher than the supply for
insullation and leakage. The test current used to test earth
continuity can damage the earth connection on electronic equipment but
a testing kit suitable for this allows the test current to be set to a
suitable low value.

If you are refering to a Flash Test this should never be done on any
equipment as part of a routine PAT test.

In article ,
John Evans writes:

Nonsense.

A PAT test doesn't use any voltage higher than the supply for
insullation and leakage.

It uses 500VDC IIRC. However an insulation test shouldn't be performed
on IT equipment (unless it claims conformance to BS EN 60950 in which
case it will withstand this without damage). A leakage test (measuring
the actual leakage in use) should be performed instead.

The test current used to test earth
continuity can damage the earth connection on electronic equipment but
a testing kit suitable for this allows the test current to be set to a
suitable low value.

If you are refering to a Flash Test this should never be done on any
equipment as part of a routine PAT test.

Untrained testers with test equipment capable of performing a
flash test (typically 4.5kV) may well use it out of ignorance
during a PAT test.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On Nov 27, 7:07 pm, John Evans wrote:
On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 11:21:23 -0800 (PST),
wrote:





On 26 Nov, 19:24, "nightjar" cpb@insert my surname here.me.uk
wrote:
"ac1951" wrote in message

...

My Wife is a member of a sewing group that meets every week at a local
village hall.
They all take along their sewing machines and someone has said that
they should have their machines PAT tested.

Whilst I agree that a regular safety check would do no harm and it
only cost circa 4 or 5 pounds I don't believe that this is an actual
legal requirement..

PAT is not a legal requirement, but is a convenient way to show compliance
with legal requirements. However, unless the sewing group is selling what
they make, I can't see that there are in a workplace or that there are any
legal requirements for H&S that apply to them as a sewing group. OTOH, the
operators of the hall will have H&S obligations and may pass them onto the
users in their terms and conditions of hire.

Colin Bignell

What's happened is that new regs have come into force requiring
village halls and the like to abide by the same safety rules as
workplaces. A certain well-known company is going around charging
large fees for badly cobbled together and alarmist reports which cause
uninformed managers to (a) panic, (b) spend lots of money
unnecessarily, and (c) do things like imposing regulations on
equipment brought onto the premises. All that is actually required is
to prove that you have made an assessment of the situation and
established appropriate procedures.

In practical terms, if sewing machines these days contain electronics,
it's most unwise to apply the large voltages that PAT testers produce,
and a simple visual test of plugs, fuses, and leads is all that should
be done, plus maybe the PAT earth test.

Nonsense.

A PAT test doesn't use any voltage higher than the supply for
insullation and leakage. The test current used to test earth
continuity can damage the earth connection on electronic equipment but
a testing kit suitable for this allows the test current to be set to a
suitable low value.

If you are refering to a Flash Test this should never be done on any
equipment as part of a routine PAT test.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The majority of dedicated PAT units employ 500v dc for the insulation
test. This is carried out between Phase & Neutral joined together and
the earth/exposed conductive parts via the earth wander lead.
Some use around 3kV for a flash test but this should only be carried
out after major refurbishment as it overstresses the insulation and
can lead to premature failure

On Thu, 29 Nov 2007 11:35:57 -0800 (PST), cynic
wrote:

On Nov 27, 7:07 pm, John Evans wrote:
On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 11:21:23 -0800 (PST),
wrote:





On 26 Nov, 19:24, "nightjar" cpb@insert my surname here.me.uk
wrote:
"ac1951" wrote in message

...

My Wife is a member of a sewing group that meets every week at a local
village hall.
They all take along their sewing machines and someone has said that
they should have their machines PAT tested.

Whilst I agree that a regular safety check would do no harm and it
only cost circa 4 or 5 pounds I don't believe that this is an actual
legal requirement..

PAT is not a legal requirement, but is a convenient way to show compliance
with legal requirements. However, unless the sewing group is selling what
they make, I can't see that there are in a workplace or that there are any
legal requirements for H&S that apply to them as a sewing group. OTOH, the
operators of the hall will have H&S obligations and may pass them onto the
users in their terms and conditions of hire.

Colin Bignell

What's happened is that new regs have come into force requiring
village halls and the like to abide by the same safety rules as
workplaces. A certain well-known company is going around charging
large fees for badly cobbled together and alarmist reports which cause
uninformed managers to (a) panic, (b) spend lots of money
unnecessarily, and (c) do things like imposing regulations on
equipment brought onto the premises. All that is actually required is
to prove that you have made an assessment of the situation and
established appropriate procedures.

In practical terms, if sewing machines these days contain electronics,
it's most unwise to apply the large voltages that PAT testers produce,
and a simple visual test of plugs, fuses, and leads is all that should
be done, plus maybe the PAT earth test.

Nonsense.

A PAT test doesn't use any voltage higher than the supply for
insullation and leakage. The test current used to test earth
continuity can damage the earth connection on electronic equipment but
a testing kit suitable for this allows the test current to be set to a
suitable low value.

If you are refering to a Flash Test this should never be done on any
equipment as part of a routine PAT test.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The majority of dedicated PAT units employ 500v dc for the insulation
test. This is carried out between Phase & Neutral joined together and
the earth/exposed conductive parts via the earth wander lead.
Some use around 3kV for a flash test but this should only be carried
out after major refurbishment as it overstresses the insulation and
can lead to premature failure


What is being overlooked is the fact that it is the PEAK voltage of
the mains supply that the insullation has to withstand , plus a safety
margin.

A nominal 240v supply has a peak voltage of 340v which is easily
exceeded if a mains spike occurs at the supply peak.

As 500v dc is less than 50% above the peak of a 240v sine wave. (I
would think that 500v was chasen as a test voltage with this in mind).
Any mains equipment should be able to handle this. If it can't it
should be scrapped!

Flash testing should not be used by anyone carrying out a PAT test.

On 30 Nov, 11:35, John Evans wrote:
On Thu, 29 Nov 2007 11:35:57 -0800 (PST), cynic





wrote:
On Nov 27, 7:07 pm, John Evans wrote:
On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 11:21:23 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

On 26 Nov, 19:24, "nightjar" cpb@insert my surname here.me.uk
wrote:
"ac1951" wrote in message

...

My Wife is a member of a sewing group that meets every week at a local
village hall.
They all take along their sewing machines and someone has said that
they should have their machines PAT tested.

Whilst I agree that a regular safety check would do no harm and it
only cost circa 4 or 5 pounds I don't believe that this is an actual
legal requirement..

PAT is not a legal requirement, but is a convenient way to show compliance
with legal requirements. However, unless the sewing group is selling what
they make, I can't see that there are in a workplace or that there are any
legal requirements for H&S that apply to them as a sewing group. OTOH, the
operators of the hall will have H&S obligations and may pass them onto the
users in their terms and conditions of hire.

Colin Bignell

What's happened is that new regs have come into force requiring
village halls and the like to abide by the same safety rules as
workplaces. A certain well-known company is going around charging
large fees for badly cobbled together and alarmist reports which cause
uninformed managers to (a) panic, (b) spend lots of money
unnecessarily, and (c) do things like imposing regulations on
equipment brought onto the premises. All that is actually required is
to prove that you have made an assessment of the situation and
established appropriate procedures.

In practical terms, if sewing machines these days contain electronics,
it's most unwise to apply the large voltages that PAT testers produce,
and a simple visual test of plugs, fuses, and leads is all that should
be done, plus maybe the PAT earth test.

Nonsense.

A PAT test doesn't use any voltage higher than the supply for
insullation and leakage. The test current used to test earth
continuity can damage the earth connection on electronic equipment but
a testing kit suitable for this allows the test current to be set to a
suitable low value.

If you are refering to a Flash Test this should never be done on any
equipment as part of a routine PAT test.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The majority of dedicated PAT units employ 500v dc for the insulation
test. This is carried out between Phase & Neutral joined together and
the earth/exposed conductive parts via the earth wander lead.
Some use around 3kV for a flash test but this should only be carried
out after major refurbishment as it overstresses the insulation and
can lead to premature failure

What is being overlooked is the fact that it is the PEAK voltage of
the mains supply that the insullation has to withstand , plus a safety
margin.

A nominal 240v supply has a peak voltage of 340v which is easily
exceeded if a mains spike occurs at the supply peak.

As 500v dc is less than 50% above the peak of a 240v sine wave. (I
would think that 500v was chasen as a test voltage with this in mind).
Any mains equipment should be able to handle this. If it can't it
should be scrapped!

Flash testing should not be used by anyone carrying out a PAT test.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


No one is overlooking anything. The matter is well documented in an
IEE code of practice *, recognised by HSE and others.
The 500v is in line with the 500v used for circuits operating at up to
500v (see section 7 of BS7671)

*The IEE code of practice for in-service testing (PAT) gives full
details of the various requirements, inspection, tests to be applied
including the use of flash testing, which as I said is only to be
carried out after major refurbishment of an item of equipment, not as
a matter of routine. Reading this book would be a good start to
deciding how best to comply with the requirements of the hall
management.

On Nov 26, 12:53 pm, ac1951 wrote:
My Wife is a member of a sewing group that meets every week at a local
village hall.
They all take along their sewing machines and someone has said that
they should have their machines PAT tested.

Whilst I agree that a regular safety check would do no harm and it
only cost circa 4 or 5 pounds I don't believe that this is an actual
legal requirement..

Unless that is someone knows different...?????

Hi,

Have a look at this, print it out and pass it on:

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg236.pdf

cheers,
Pete.

In article ,
Pete C writes:

Hi,

Have a look at this, print it out and pass it on:

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg236.pdf

Not seen that before, but it's excellent (and agrees
with what I've been posting about PAT testing over
the years ;-).

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]