A friend of mine desperately needs his house rewiring, but cannot afford to
hire a professional electrician so has asked me to help as I have studied
electrics at nightschool.

Now, I understand that if you're doing the job yourself you are supposed to
get the councils building control section to come check your wiring prior to
the final connection, however this is going to be practicaly impossible as
we're going to be doing this at weekends and probably doing a room at a
time.

With the exception of the kitchen, which was newly installed prior to him
moving in, everything else needs replacing, including a new fuse box, which
is "do-able" as theres a switch between the meter and the fuse box.

However, never having had to get the council involved before I'm not quite
sure the correct order of doing things.

Do we just rewire and replace everything then call the council in, or do we
have to contact them first then have them come check it at the end, or do we
have to keep calling them back each time we connect a new circuit?

I'd be greatful for any pointers.

TIA


--
Best Wishes
Simon (aka Dark Angel)
Dark Angel's Realm of Horror - http://www.realmofhorror.co.uk

Dark Angel wrote:

Do we just rewire and replace everything then call the council in, or do we
have to contact them first then have them come check it at the end, or do we
have to keep calling them back each time we connect a new circuit?

I'd be greatful for any pointers.

From what various people have said it seems each local authority is a
law unto themselves in this respect.

The way it ought to work, is that you submit a building notice, for
which there is a charge. The charge should be based on the commercial
value of the work being carried out. The council should not charge more
because it is an electrical job. They will then specify what inspections
they (or their subcontractors) want to carry out. If they want a formal
test at the end of it, it is their responsibility to do this and pay for
it.

That's the theory. The practice varies wildly. Some will refuse to do or
organise the inspection work, and will expect you to pay for your own
contractor to do this. This is in contravention to the approved document
and explicit instructions from the relevant government departments but
they seem to care not. (you can sympathise with their position - this is
well outside the skill sets of most BCOs, and they would have to pay a
sub contractor significantly more than the building notice fee to have
an inspection and test done)

The best line of attack would hence be phone your local building control
department (most are very helpful), explain what you want to do, and ask
them how they work it. If they want to charge extra, remind them of
paragraph 1.26 in part P :

http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/upl...F_ADP_2006.pdf

and see what they say. If they still won't budge then its your call.

If you do it without involving the LA, then the sky is unlikely to fall
in, although you may get asked questions when you sell the place.
(however based on recent experience, conveyancing solicitors seem to
have lost interest in it already).


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"John Rumm" wrote in message...
The best line of attack would hence be phone your local building control
department (most are very helpful), explain what you want to do, and ask
them how they work it. If they want to charge extra, remind them of
paragraph 1.26 in part P :

http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/upl...F_ADP_2006.pdf

Thanks for that, I'll ring up their local building control office and have
words.

If it was my own house I'd probably just do it anyway and not bother, but
with it being someone elses I don't want to make myself liable for anything
in the unlikely event that something should go wrong.


--
Best Wishes
Simon (aka Dark Angel)
Dark Angel's Realm of Horror - http://www.realmofhorror.co.uk

Dark Angel wrote:

Thanks for that, I'll ring up their local building control office and have
words.

If it was my own house I'd probably just do it anyway and not bother, but
with it being someone elses I don't want to make myself liable for anything
in the unlikely event that something should go wrong.



I would have thought that compliance with part p is irrelevant to the
issue of your personal liability. You will be liable unless you have a
clear understanding with your friend that he is "doing" the rewire and
you are merely "helping" him as a friend (and you'd better not be taking
any money either).

Even then, if (as a result of your supposed negligence) something goes
drastically wrong and someone gets injured or dies (even some time after
the installation is done and dusted), you may well find yourself on the
end of a lawsuit. In this respect, either you have appropriate
liability insurance or you don't...

Dark Angel wrote:
A friend of mine desperately needs his house rewiring, but cannot afford to
hire a professional electrician so has asked me to help as I have studied
electrics at nightschool.

Now, I understand that if you're doing the job yourself you are supposed to
get the councils building control section to come check your wiring prior to
the final connection, however this is going to be practicaly impossible as
we're going to be doing this at weekends and probably doing a room at a
time.

With the exception of the kitchen, which was newly installed prior to him
moving in, everything else needs replacing, including a new fuse box, which
is "do-able" as theres a switch between the meter and the fuse box.

However, never having had to get the council involved before I'm not quite
sure the correct order of doing things.

Do we just rewire and replace everything then call the council in, or do we
have to contact them first then have them come check it at the end, or do we
have to keep calling them back each time we connect a new circuit?

I'd be greatful for any pointers.

TIA


Hi,

Just a thought, why don't you do all the rewiring your self (making sure
its done properly) but leave the fuse box,

then get a professional electrician to replace the fuse box with a new
consumer unit, but don't tell him you did the rewiring your self,

he will have to do a complete test on the whole house to make sure
everything is ok be for he gives you a certificate,

as i understand it will cost you about £250 to get council involved so
you might as well do it as above which will be less hassle i think.

Thoughts anyone?

"nice1" wrote in message
...
Dark Angel wrote:
A friend of mine desperately needs his house rewiring, but cannot afford
to
hire a professional electrician so has asked me to help as I have studied
electrics at nightschool.

Now, I understand that if you're doing the job yourself you are supposed
to
get the councils building control section to come check your wiring prior
to
the final connection, however this is going to be practicaly impossible
as
we're going to be doing this at weekends and probably doing a room at a
time.

With the exception of the kitchen, which was newly installed prior to him
moving in, everything else needs replacing, including a new fuse box,
which
is "do-able" as theres a switch between the meter and the fuse box.

However, never having had to get the council involved before I'm not
quite
sure the correct order of doing things.

Do we just rewire and replace everything then call the council in, or do
we
have to contact them first then have them come check it at the end, or do
we
have to keep calling them back each time we connect a new circuit?

I'd be greatful for any pointers.

TIA


Hi,

Just a thought, why don't you do all the rewiring your self (making sure
its done properly) but leave the fuse box,

then get a professional electrician to replace the fuse box with a new
consumer unit, but don't tell him you did the rewiring your self,

he will have to do a complete test on the whole house to make sure
everything is ok be for he gives you a certificate,

as i understand it will cost you about £250 to get council involved so
you might as well do it as above which will be less hassle i think.

Thoughts anyone?

I would charge more than £250 for a CU swap and test.

Adam

nice1 wrote:
Dark Angel wrote:
A friend of mine desperately needs his house rewiring, but cannot afford to
hire a professional electrician so has asked me to help as I have studied
electrics at nightschool.

Now, I understand that if you're doing the job yourself you are supposed to
get the councils building control section to come check your wiring prior to
the final connection, however this is going to be practicaly impossible as
we're going to be doing this at weekends and probably doing a room at a
time.

With the exception of the kitchen, which was newly installed prior to him
moving in, everything else needs replacing, including a new fuse box, which
is "do-able" as theres a switch between the meter and the fuse box.

However, never having had to get the council involved before I'm not quite
sure the correct order of doing things.

Do we just rewire and replace everything then call the council in, or do we
have to contact them first then have them come check it at the end, or do we
have to keep calling them back each time we connect a new circuit?


Just a thought, why don't you do all the rewiring your self (making sure
its done properly) but leave the fuse box,

then get a professional electrician to replace the fuse box with a new
consumer unit, but don't tell him you did the rewiring your self,

he will have to do a complete test on the whole house to make sure
everything is ok be for he gives you a certificate,

Well, if the OP's going to go down that route, rightly or wrongly, he
may as well do the whole lot, including the consumer unit, and then get
the pro in to test the whole lot and tell him exactly what's been
done... the net result will be the same - a Periodic Inspection Report
(which isn't the same as having the whole job completed under Part P).

David

In article ,
John Rumm writes:
Dark Angel wrote:

Do we just rewire and replace everything then call the council in, or do we
have to contact them first then have them come check it at the end, or do we
have to keep calling them back each time we connect a new circuit?

I'd be greatful for any pointers.

From what various people have said it seems each local authority is a
law unto themselves in this respect.

It might be useful to say which LA, as someone here may already
know what their stance is. I was chatting to some other deligates
after a conference this week (which was nothing to do with DIY or
electrical work). The subject of Part P came up. The guy had
wandered in to his LA BCO department for a chat. The BCO said he
liked it when people did that, because he then could unofficially
suggest they ignore Part P, avoiding a load of agro on both sides.
Sorry, no idea which LA that was though.

The way it ought to work, is that you submit a building notice, for
which there is a charge. The charge should be based on the commercial
value of the work being carried out. The council should not charge more
because it is an electrical job. They will then specify what inspections
they (or their subcontractors) want to carry out. If they want a formal
test at the end of it, it is their responsibility to do this and pay for
it.

That's the theory. The practice varies wildly. Some will refuse to do or
organise the inspection work, and will expect you to pay for your own
contractor to do this. This is in contravention to the approved document
and explicit instructions from the relevant government departments but
they seem to care not. (you can sympathise with their position - this is
well outside the skill sets of most BCOs, and they would have to pay a
sub contractor significantly more than the building notice fee to have
an inspection and test done)

Part of the problem is the aparent gold plating of the rules.
All that was originally expected was that the BCO would glance
at the installation to ensure looked like it was done to a
reasonable standard, like they do for many of the other areas
they inspect. It was never expected that full testing by qualified
engineers was required as part of the BC approval -- the LA's have
dug this hole for themselves, it's not part of Part P.

The best line of attack would hence be phone your local building control

State here which LA first -- someone with experience of dealing
with them may be able to comment.

department (most are very helpful), explain what you want to do, and ask
them how they work it. If they want to charge extra, remind them of
paragraph 1.26 in part P :

http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/upl...F_ADP_2006.pdf

and see what they say. If they still won't budge then its your call.

If you do it without involving the LA, then the sky is unlikely to fall
in, although you may get asked questions when you sell the place.
(however based on recent experience, conveyancing solicitors seem to
have lost interest in it already).

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On 2007-09-23 12:42:13 +0100, (Andrew
Gabriel) said:

In article ,
John Rumm writes:
Dark Angel wrote:

Do we just rewire and replace everything then call the council in, or do we
have to contact them first then have them come check it at the end, or do we
have to keep calling them back each time we connect a new circuit?

I'd be greatful for any pointers.

From what various people have said it seems each local authority is a
law unto themselves in this respect.

It might be useful to say which LA, as someone here may already
know what their stance is. I was chatting to some other deligates
after a conference this week (which was nothing to do with DIY or
electrical work). The subject of Part P came up. The guy had
wandered in to his LA BCO department for a chat. The BCO said he
liked it when people did that, because he then could unofficially
suggest they ignore Part P, avoiding a load of agro on both sides.
Sorry, no idea which LA that was though.

All of them, probably.

As we figured out a while ago, the intent was always that this would be
a self certifying game by NICEIC and similar contractors, not that
building control would get involved in the technicalities.




The way it ought to work, is that you submit a building notice, for
which there is a charge. The charge should be based on the commercial
value of the work being carried out. The council should not charge more
because it is an electrical job. They will then specify what inspections
they (or their subcontractors) want to carry out. If they want a formal
test at the end of it, it is their responsibility to do this and pay for
it.

That's the theory. The practice varies wildly. Some will refuse to do or
organise the inspection work, and will expect you to pay for your own
contractor to do this. This is in contravention to the approved document
and explicit instructions from the relevant government departments but
they seem to care not. (you can sympathise with their position - this is
well outside the skill sets of most BCOs, and they would have to pay a
sub contractor significantly more than the building notice fee to have
an inspection and test done)

Part of the problem is the aparent gold plating of the rules.

Like EU Directives. The government is good at gold plating


All that was originally expected was that the BCO would glance
at the installation to ensure looked like it was done to a
reasonable standard, like they do for many of the other areas
they inspect. It was never expected that full testing by qualified
engineers was required as part of the BC approval -- the LA's have
dug this hole for themselves, it's not part of Part P.

Although how would they be able to determine parameters such as
continuity and impedance measurements which require a) the
understanding and b) the test gear? It takes them into an area of
skill and knowledge that most won't have.

Andy Hall wrote:

Although how would they be able to determine parameters such as
continuity and impedance measurements which require a) the understanding
and b) the test gear? It takes them into an area of skill and
knowledge that most won't have.

But they don't in other areas which they inspect. If they call to
inspect my new foundations they don't test the concrete to check that it
is the right mix and able to withstand the loads. They take a look and
say - that looks OK keep going. Why should electrics be any different?

What might be a good idea is for someone submitting the building
application to provide appropriate calculations to show that they have
thought about the design of the installation - in much the same way that
a structural engineer does for things like RSJs.

Andrew

On Sun, 23 Sep 2007 13:48:55 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

Although how would they be able to determine parameters such as
continuity and impedance measurements which require a) the
understanding and b) the test gear? It takes them into an area of
skill and knowledge that most won't have.

I'm pretty sure that every local authority must have an electrical
engineer in its employ, even if he is in a different department.

--
Frank Erskine

On 2007-09-24 12:47:31 +0100, Andrew May said:

Andy Hall wrote:

Although how would they be able to determine parameters such as
continuity and impedance measurements which require a) the
understanding and b) the test gear? It takes them into an area of
skill and knowledge that most won't have.

But they don't in other areas which they inspect. If they call to
inspect my new foundations they don't test the concrete to check that
it is the right mix and able to withstand the loads. They take a look
and say - that looks OK keep going. Why should electrics be any
different?

Are they trained or do they have the experience to know whether
something "looking OK" actually is OK?

It would be possible to have a set of wiring neatly clipped and looking
the part, while actually being wrong and unsafe - e.g. missing
earthing, wrong sized cable for application etc.etc.etc.

Equally, it would be possible to have wiring that is technically
completely correct and to a good standard but not looking cosmetically
as good.

A cursory glance would choose the wrong installation as OK.



What might be a good idea is for someone submitting the building
application to provide appropriate calculations to show that they have
thought about the design of the installation - in much the same way
that a structural engineer does for things like RSJs.

That still assumes that the reader understands what he is seeing.
Without the training and background, he wouldn't/

All of this misses what the main point of the legislation was. That
was to attempt to bring more electrical contractors within the tax
system. It was never anticipated that there would be any significant
amount of work done via the use of a building notice as opposed to self
certification by contractors.

On 2007-09-24 13:21:39 +0100, Frank Erskine
said:

On Sun, 23 Sep 2007 13:48:55 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

Although how would they be able to determine parameters such as
continuity and impedance measurements which require a) the
understanding and b) the test gear? It takes them into an area of
skill and knowledge that most won't have.

I'm pretty sure that every local authority must have an electrical
engineer in its employ, even if he is in a different department.

There's a problem right there. Someone else's resource and probably
another union.

In article ,
Andy Hall writes:

Although how would they be able to determine parameters such as
continuity and impedance measurements which require a) the
understanding and b) the test gear? It takes them into an area of
skill and knowledge that most won't have.

I've seen no evidence that any such additional checking is required
in a domestic environment. Most of the danger from domestic wiring
installations comes from old installations which people haven't
touched for years, not from newly installed parts of installations,
even when not installed strictly according to the regs. In the
majority of cases of modified wiring which hasn't been tested, it's
unlikely to be any worse than it was before, and it is likely to be
better that anything ancient it replaced.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On Mon, 24 Sep 2007 13:56:36 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

On 2007-09-24 13:21:39 +0100, Frank Erskine
said:

On Sun, 23 Sep 2007 13:48:55 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

Although how would they be able to determine parameters such as
continuity and impedance measurements which require a) the
understanding and b) the test gear? It takes them into an area of
skill and knowledge that most won't have.

I'm pretty sure that every local authority must have an electrical
engineer in its employ, even if he is in a different department.

There's a problem right there. Someone else's resource and probably
another union.

Simple. Vary his terms of contract to confirm that he works for Xxx
Council rather than, say, Xxx Council's Streetlighting department or
whatever. He will probably be happy to have a bit more variety of work
and will then perhaps be employed full-time rather than merely being
paid full-time.

(As it happens, our streetlight management is 'outsourced', but you
know what I mean.)

--
Frank Erskine

On 23 Sep, 07:33, nice1 wrote:
Dark Angel wrote:
A friend of mine desperately needs his house rewiring, but cannot afford to
hire a professional electrician so has asked me to help as I have studied
electrics at nightschool.

Now, I understand that if you're doing the job yourself you are supposed to
get the councils building control section to come check your wiring prior to
the final connection, however this is going to be practicaly impossible as
we're going to be doing this at weekends and probably doing a room at a
time.

With the exception of the kitchen, which was newly installed prior to him
moving in, everything else needs replacing, including a new fuse box, which
is "do-able" as theres a switch between the meter and the fuse box.

However, never having had to get the council involved before I'm not quite
sure the correct order of doing things.

Do we just rewire and replace everything then call the council in, or do we
have to contact them first then have them come check it at the end, or do we
have to keep calling them back each time we connect a new circuit?

I'd be greatful for any pointers.

TIA

Hi,

Just a thought, why don't you do all the rewiring your self (making sure
its done properly) but leave the fuse box,

then get a professional electrician to replace the fuse box with a new
consumer unit, but don't tell him you did the rewiring your self,

he will have to do a complete test on the whole house to make sure
everything is ok be for he gives you a certificate,

as i understand it will cost you about £250 to get council involved so
you might as well do it as above which will be less hassle i think.

Thoughts anyone?

I would go this route but make sure you install to the guidelines of
the "Onsite Guide", which is a kind or abbreviated form of the 16th
(or 17th now) installation regs.
These include:
1. making sure that wiring going through joists is installed 2" below
the top of the joist.
2. that the sockets on a ring circuit are evenly ditributed and not
all bunched up at one end.
3. that any one ring circuit only serves an area of 100 m2 or less
(not sure of area)
4.

Please can people check these and add their own to the list to help
Simon

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2007-09-24 12:47:31 +0100, Andrew May said:

Andy Hall wrote:

Although how would they be able to determine parameters such as
continuity and impedance measurements which require a) the
understanding and b) the test gear? It takes them into an area of
skill and knowledge that most won't have.

But they don't in other areas which they inspect. If they call to
inspect my new foundations they don't test the concrete to check that
it is the right mix and able to withstand the loads. They take a look
and say - that looks OK keep going. Why should electrics be any
different?

Are they trained or do they have the experience to know whether
something "looking OK" actually is OK?

It would be possible to have a set of wiring neatly clipped and looking
the part, while actually being wrong and unsafe - e.g. missing earthing,
wrong sized cable for application etc.etc.etc.

Equally, it would be possible to have wiring that is technically
completely correct and to a good standard but not looking cosmetically
as good.

A cursory glance would choose the wrong installation as OK.



But that is no different from the situation with, say, foundations. A
trench might be nice and neat but it may be filled with the wrong type
of concrete or it might be a complete mess but perfectly adequate
structurally.

I would hazard a guess that 99 times out of a hundred if a diyer has the
inclination to produce a neat looking job then they also have the
inclination to make sure it follows the regs.


What might be a good idea is for someone submitting the building
application to provide appropriate calculations to show that they have
thought about the design of the installation - in much the same way
that a structural engineer does for things like RSJs.

That still assumes that the reader understands what he is seeing.
Without the training and background, he wouldn't/

Which is exactly the same situation as with the requirements for loading
calculations for RSJs.


All of this misses what the main point of the legislation was. That
was to attempt to bring more electrical contractors within the tax
system. It was never anticipated that there would be any significant
amount of work done via the use of a building notice as opposed to self
certification by contractors.


Now on that, I totally agree with you.

Andrew

In article ,
nice1 wrote:
as i understand it will cost you about £250 to get council involved so
you might as well do it as above which will be less hassle i think.

Fit a new CU and test for 250 quid?

--
*Support bacteria - they're the only culture some people have *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article , Lobster
writes
nice1 wrote:
Dark Angel wrote:
A friend of mine desperately needs his house rewiring, but cannot afford to
hire a professional electrician so has asked me to help as I have studied
electrics at nightschool.

Now, I understand that if you're doing the job yourself you are supposed to
get the councils building control section to come check your wiring prior to
the final connection, however this is going to be practicaly impossible as
we're going to be doing this at weekends and probably doing a room at a
time.

With the exception of the kitchen, which was newly installed prior to him
moving in, everything else needs replacing, including a new fuse box, which
is "do-able" as theres a switch between the meter and the fuse box.

However, never having had to get the council involved before I'm not quite
sure the correct order of doing things.

Do we just rewire and replace everything then call the council in, or do we
have to contact them first then have them come check it at the end, or do we
have to keep calling them back each time we connect a new circuit?


Just a thought, why don't you do all the rewiring your self (making sure
its done properly) but leave the fuse box,

then get a professional electrician to replace the fuse box with a new
consumer unit, but don't tell him you did the rewiring your self,

he will have to do a complete test on the whole house to make sure
everything is ok be for he gives you a certificate,

Well, if the OP's going to go down that route, rightly or wrongly, he
may as well do the whole lot, including the consumer unit, and then get
the pro in to test the whole lot and tell him exactly what's been
done... the net result will be the same - a Periodic Inspection Report
(which isn't the same as having the whole job completed under Part P).

David

On a recent renovation I completely rewired the house. The BCO came out
to inspect the first fix (i.e. came in through the front door, had a
cursory glance around and then left).

The work was certified by an electrician who provided a Periodic
Inspection Report. When the BCO came around to check this he didn't
think that this was enough until I pointed him at their own
documentation which stated that this was the correct procedure.


Martin
--
Martin Carroll

On 2007-09-25 10:05:44 +0100, Andrew May said:


But that is no different from the situation with, say, foundations. A
trench might be nice and neat but it may be filled with the wrong type
of concrete or it might be a complete mess but perfectly adequate
structurally.

I would hazard a guess that 99 times out of a hundred if a diyer has
the inclination to produce a neat looking job then they also have the
inclination to make sure it follows the regs.

You'd be surprised. IN a house we had some time ago, exactly this
had been done, but there were some less than obvious defects that made
it highly unsafe and were only picked up with test gear.




What might be a good idea is for someone submitting the building
application to provide appropriate calculations to show that they have
thought about the design of the installation - in much the same way
that a structural engineer does for things like RSJs.

That still assumes that the reader understands what he is seeing.
Without the training and background, he wouldn't/

Which is exactly the same situation as with the requirements for
loading calculations for RSJs.

Of course, and there's a piece of paper signed by someone with
indemnity insurance.





All of this misses what the main point of the legislation was. That
was to attempt to bring more electrical contractors within the tax
system. It was never anticipated that there would be any significant
amount of work done via the use of a building notice as opposed to self
certification by contractors.


Now on that, I totally agree with you.

Andrew

Martin Carroll wrote:

The work was certified by an electrician who provided a Periodic
Inspection Report. When the BCO came around to check this he didn't
think that this was enough until I pointed him at their own
documentation which stated that this was the correct procedure.

Hope you billed the BC department for the cost of the report!


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/