Just got the tiles up on the wall in our new kitchen and I'm looking
to finish it all off now.

The gap between the tiles and the worktop is between 3 and 4mm, as the
worktop slopes slightly over it's length. More importantly, the gap
between the wall and the front of the tiles is up to 12mm and the gap
between the wall and the worktop was, in places, up to 8mm (thanks
Moben ). The cut edge of the worktop wasn't PVAed/varnished etc.

So I need a good seal. Moben did squirt some sealant into the gap
between the cut edge of the worktop and the wall, but I don't want to
rely on that. Likewise, although the units are screwed to the wall, I
wouldn't want to bet that they won't move over time.

So my plan was to white grout except for that bottom gap between the
tiles and the worktop and then pump lots of white sealant into the gap
and smooth off. When I read the instructions for Unibond Bathroom &
Kitchen Sealant (http://www.makingdiyeasier.co.uk/unibond/
bathkitchsealant.html) it said that filling gaps of 6mm can lead to
failure.

Any ideas as to what I should be doing/using? Also any tips on how to
grout and leave a clean gap for later sealing would be appreciated.

Many thanks.

wrote:
Just got the tiles up on the wall in our new kitchen and I'm looking
to finish it all off now.

The gap between the tiles and the worktop is between 3 and 4mm, as the
worktop slopes slightly over it's length. More importantly, the gap
between the wall and the front of the tiles is up to 12mm and the gap
between the wall and the worktop was, in places, up to 8mm (thanks
Moben ). The cut edge of the worktop wasn't PVAed/varnished etc.

So I need a good seal. Moben did squirt some sealant into the gap
between the cut edge of the worktop and the wall, but I don't want to
rely on that. Likewise, although the units are screwed to the wall, I
wouldn't want to bet that they won't move over time.

So my plan was to white grout except for that bottom gap between the
tiles and the worktop and then pump lots of white sealant into the gap
and smooth off. When I read the instructions for Unibond Bathroom &
Kitchen Sealant (http://www.makingdiyeasier.co.uk/unibond/
bathkitchsealant.html) it said that filling gaps of 6mm can lead to
failure.

Any ideas as to what I should be doing/using? Also any tips on how to
grout and leave a clean gap for later sealing would be appreciated.

Many thanks.

Sounds like Moben didn't get the worktop level or make any attempt to
"fit" the kitchen, but slapping it against the existing walls might be
what they were contracted to do for all I know.
IMO the best thing at this stage would be to rip the tiles off, plaster
the walls to eliminate the gaps, and re-tile. Maybe you can still
salvage the tiles if the adhesive hasn't fully hardened. Patching things
up doesn't sound like a option

On 20 Aug, 12:54, "
wrote:
Just got the tiles up on the wall in our new kitchen and I'm looking
to finish it all off now.

The gap between the tiles and the worktop is between 3 and 4mm, as the
worktop slopes slightly over it's length. More importantly, the gap
between the wall and the front of the tiles is up to 12mm and the gap
between the wall and the worktop was, in places, up to 8mm (thanks
Moben ). The cut edge of the worktop wasn't PVAed/varnished etc.

You're not saying there is a gap between the front of the tiles and
the worktop are you ? Just not much overlap - 12mm-8mm = 4mm overlap
of the tiles with the worktop ? That's not *too* bad. And up to 8mm
gap of thin air at the back. That is a touch much for silicone etc,
would use up quite a lot, since it could "fall" down the back when
applied. I might mask off the worktop etc and use some expanding foam.
This would also stick the units to the wall and make the whole thing
more stable. You would trim this off and paint with something
waterproof. The 3-4mm gap is fine. Fill with silicone or acrylic
sealant colour matched to either the grout or the worktop.


So I need a good seal. Moben did squirt some sealant into the gap
between the cut edge of the worktop and the wall, but I don't want to
rely on that. Likewise, although the units are screwed to the wall, I
wouldn't want to bet that they won't move over time.

So my plan was to white grout except for that bottom gap between the
tiles and the worktop and then pump lots of white sealant into the gap
and smooth off. When I read the instructions for Unibond Bathroom &
Kitchen Sealant (http://www.makingdiyeasier.co.uk/unibond/
bathkitchsealant.html) it said that filling gaps of 6mm can lead to
failure.

You can use an acrylic sealant that will do bigger gaps if needed.


Any ideas as to what I should be doing/using? Also any tips on how to
grout and leave a clean gap for later sealing would be appreciated.


Wedge into the gap a strip of thin wood / hardboard or something.

Many thanks.

Hope that helps,
Simon.

On 2007-08-20 12:54:11 +0100, "
said:

Just got the tiles up on the wall in our new kitchen and I'm looking
to finish it all off now.

The gap between the tiles and the worktop is between 3 and 4mm, as the
worktop slopes slightly over it's length. More importantly, the gap
between the wall and the front of the tiles is up to 12mm and the gap
between the wall and the worktop was, in places, up to 8mm (thanks
Moben ). The cut edge of the worktop wasn't PVAed/varnished etc.

So I need a good seal. Moben did squirt some sealant into the gap
between the cut edge of the worktop and the wall, but I don't want to
rely on that. Likewise, although the units are screwed to the wall, I
wouldn't want to bet that they won't move over time.

So my plan was to white grout except for that bottom gap between the
tiles and the worktop and then pump lots of white sealant into the gap
and smooth off. When I read the instructions for Unibond Bathroom &
Kitchen Sealant (http://www.makingdiyeasier.co.uk/unibond/
bathkitchsealant.html) it said that filling gaps of 6mm can lead to
failure.

Any ideas as to what I should be doing/using? Also any tips on how to
grout and leave a clean gap for later sealing would be appreciated.

Many thanks.

None of the above. The job sounds shoddy. Putting in grout and
sealer may effect a seal for a while, but gaps like this will be highly
visible.

Contact Moben in writing, using Special Delivery to obtain proof of
delivery, giving them 14 days to come and replace the worktop, scribing
it properly to the wall.

In the event of their not doing this, the courses of action a

- Withhold payment until it is done. (You haven't paid all of their
charges have you?)

- Contact your credit card supplier or other credit supplier. (You
did use a payment vehicle covered by the Consumer Credit Act?)

- Be prepared to initiate a Small Claims action.

Ah - looks like I was too accepting. And that's after I must have
earned their "Biggest Pain in the Arse" award getting them to install
correctly and fix things . Seriously, the 3-4 day install took 6
weeks as it was and although I was horrified at the worktop gaps, I
figured we could live with them.

Just to clarify, Simon is correct about the tiles having at least a
4mm overhang (and in places where the worktop is tight on the wall a
12mm overhang). So:

WALL---|----8mm gap----|---4mm tile overhang---|

That up-to-8mm gap has been filled by Moben with sealant level with
the worktop. How good that seal will be in 5 years (or even
now) . . . Still, it will presumably stop whatever I do push into the
gap from falling down behind the units.

With those clarifications, hopefully the problem isn't as bad as
Stuart, Owain and Andy thought. Likewise, hopefully I can avoid the
expanding foam route suggested by Simon (with my skills I can see that
going horribly wrong).

Simon said that I could use an acrylic sealant. Would that give as
good a watertight seal a silicone and would the visible bit last as
well? Is there a special one or do I just buy the most expensive one
in my local DIY store?

Thanks for the tip about the hardboard. Do I remove it before the
grout hardens?

Naturally it goes without saying that I find myself unable to
recommend Moben!

On 2007-08-20 14:43:27 +0100, "
said:

Ah - looks like I was too accepting. And that's after I must have
earned their "Biggest Pain in the Arse" award getting them to install
correctly and fix things .

They rely on that.....


Seriously, the 3-4 day install took 6
weeks as it was and although I was horrified at the worktop gaps, I
figured we could live with them.

Just to clarify, Simon is correct about the tiles having at least a
4mm overhang (and in places where the worktop is tight on the wall a
12mm overhang). So:

WALL---|----8mm gap----|---4mm tile overhang---|

OK, that's not quite so bad. Are these thick tiles to achieve that?
Otherwise how are you achieving this range?



That up-to-8mm gap has been filled by Moben with sealant level with
the worktop. How good that seal will be in 5 years (or even
now) . . . Still, it will presumably stop whatever I do push into the
gap from falling down behind the units.

I would look at making sure that the units are rigidly secured to the
walls so that there isn't movement.



With those clarifications, hopefully the problem isn't as bad as
Stuart, Owain and Andy thought. Likewise, hopefully I can avoid the
expanding foam route suggested by Simon (with my skills I can see that
going horribly wrong).

Simon said that I could use an acrylic sealant. Would that give as
good a watertight seal a silicone and would the visible bit last as
well? Is there a special one or do I just buy the most expensive one
in my local DIY store?

Thanks for the tip about the hardboard. Do I remove it before the
grout hardens?

Naturally it goes without saying that I find myself unable to
recommend Moben!

On 20 Aug, 14:43, "
wrote:
Ah - looks like I was too accepting. And that's after I must have
earned their "Biggest Pain in the Arse" award getting them to install
correctly and fix things . Seriously, the 3-4 day install took 6
weeks as it was and although I was horrified at the worktop gaps, I
figured we could live with them.

Just to clarify, Simon is correct about the tiles having at least a
4mm overhang (and in places where the worktop is tight on the wall a
12mm overhang). So:

WALL---|----8mm gap----|---4mm tile overhang---|

That up-to-8mm gap has been filled by Moben with sealant level with
the worktop. How good that seal will be in 5 years (or even
now) . . . Still, it will presumably stop whatever I do push into the
gap from falling down behind the units.

With those clarifications, hopefully the problem isn't as bad as
Stuart, Owain and Andy thought. Likewise, hopefully I can avoid the
expanding foam route suggested by Simon (with my skills I can see that
going horribly wrong).

Simon said that I could use an acrylic sealant. Would that give as
good a watertight seal a silicone and would the visible bit last as
well? Is there a special one or do I just buy the most expensive one
in my local DIY store?

Thanks for the tip about the hardboard. Do I remove it before the
grout hardens?

I would remove it when the grout has hardened fully, else you might
pull some out. Make sure the hardboard somehow has some "give" when
you push it down (e.g. newspaper under then pull it out), so you can
break any hardboard/grout seal without forcing the grout outwards, if
you see what I mean. A lot of words for a simple thing. Or, cling film
over hardboard, wax hardboard with candle etc, to act as a release
agent.


Naturally it goes without saying that I find myself unable to
recommend Moben!

Ooh, there's been warnings on this group !
Good luck.

Simon.

On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 13:24:22 +0100, Owain wrote:

wrote:
Just got the tiles up on the wall in our new kitchen and I'm looking
to finish it all off now.
The gap between the tiles and the worktop is between 3 and 4mm, as the
worktop slopes slightly over it's length. More importantly, the gap
between the wall and the front of the tiles is up to 12mm and the gap
between the wall and the worktop was, in places, up to 8mm (thanks
Moben ). The cut edge of the worktop wasn't PVAed/varnished etc.
So I need a good seal. Moben did squirt some sealant into the gap
between the cut edge of the worktop and the wall, but I don't want to
rely on that. Likewise, although the units are screwed to the wall, I
wouldn't want to bet that they won't move over time.

Easy answer is get Moben back to remove and refit the entire worktop,
scribed to the wall and level. That's a reasonable standard of
workmanship to expect[1]. If they won't do that within 14 days, find
someone who can, and sue Moben for the cost.

There really is no point in paying someone else to do it *and* doing it
oneself. One might as well stand on a bridge throwing tenners into the
stream below, and pretend one has a yacht.

Owain


[1] for a reasonable person with no prior experience of Moben

Trouble is that Moben weren't able to do it right first time and second
time that likely are able either.

So it comes down to pay Moben nothing. Defend their claim in the small
claims court.

Decide on the bets way to fix the problem. Some pictures will be useful.
You won't get a perfect job unless you really sort out all the problems
but you might be able to get a good enough one.









--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html

On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 12:27:21 +0000, Stuart Noble wrote:

wrote:
Just got the tiles up on the wall in our new kitchen and I'm looking
to finish it all off now.

The gap between the tiles and the worktop is between 3 and 4mm, as the
worktop slopes slightly over it's length. More importantly, the gap
between the wall and the front of the tiles is up to 12mm and the gap
between the wall and the worktop was, in places, up to 8mm (thanks
Moben ). The cut edge of the worktop wasn't PVAed/varnished etc.

So I need a good seal. Moben did squirt some sealant into the gap
between the cut edge of the worktop and the wall, but I don't want to
rely on that. Likewise, although the units are screwed to the wall, I
wouldn't want to bet that they won't move over time.

So my plan was to white grout except for that bottom gap between the
tiles and the worktop and then pump lots of white sealant into the gap
and smooth off. When I read the instructions for Unibond Bathroom &
Kitchen Sealant (http://www.makingdiyeasier.co.uk/unibond/
bathkitchsealant.html) it said that filling gaps of 6mm can lead to
failure.

Any ideas as to what I should be doing/using? Also any tips on how to
grout and leave a clean gap for later sealing would be appreciated.

Many thanks.

Sounds like Moben didn't get the worktop level or make any attempt to
"fit" the kitchen, but slapping it against the existing walls might be
what they were contracted to do for all I know.
IMO the best thing at this stage would be to rip the tiles off, plaster
the walls to eliminate the gaps, and re-tile. Maybe you can still
salvage the tiles if the adhesive hasn't fully hardened. Patching things
up doesn't sound like a option

It's not necessary to scribe the worktop to the wall if the gaps are less
than 50% of the (tile+adhesive thickness).



--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html

On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 06:43:27 -0700, wrote:

Ah - looks like I was too accepting. And that's after I must have
earned their "Biggest Pain in the Arse" award getting them to install
correctly and fix things . Seriously, the 3-4 day install took 6
weeks as it was and although I was horrified at the worktop gaps, I
figured we could live with them.

Just to clarify, Simon is correct about the tiles having at least a
4mm overhang (and in places where the worktop is tight on the wall a
12mm overhang). So:

WALL---|----8mm gap----|---4mm tile overhang---|

That up-to-8mm gap has been filled by Moben with sealant level with
the worktop. How good that seal will be in 5 years (or even
now) . . . Still, it will presumably stop whatever I do push into the
gap from falling down behind the units.

With those clarifications, hopefully the problem isn't as bad as
Stuart, Owain and Andy thought. Likewise, hopefully I can avoid the
expanding foam route suggested by Simon (with my skills I can see that
going horribly wrong).

Simon said that I could use an acrylic sealant. Would that give as
good a watertight seal a silicone and would the visible bit last as
well? Is there a special one or do I just buy the most expensive one
in my local DIY store?

Thanks for the tip about the hardboard. Do I remove it before the
grout hardens?

Naturally it goes without saying that I find myself unable to
recommend Moben!

0) Make sure that the worktop is firmly supported, it should not sink more
than 1mm when an adult walks on it (don't walk on the bit near the
draining sink/board/hob).
1) Grout the gap flush.
2) When fully set (2 days) use a suitable sealant such as silicone or CT1
or even at a push an Acrylic.
3) Consider you have now passed the unit from the Univ. of life called.
Why I should never deal with Moben/Dolphin(Shark)/Sharp.




--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html

Andy Hall wrote:

They rely on that.....

Yep - if only I'd looked for reviews on the internet first.
Incidentally, their contract is for 100% payment on delivery (which
should have been another hint, Qualitas or no Qualitas).


OK, that's not quite so bad. Are these thick tiles to achieve that?
Otherwise how are you achieving this range?

8-9mm tiles with the balance in adhesive.


I would look at making sure that the units are rigidly secured to the
walls so that there isn't movement.

I did see that they were attached to the wall (one per unit), although
I doubt that the individual attachments were all that stable. They
looked like an angle bracket fixed to an offcut that was screwed to
the projecting side panel at the rear. On the plus side, it's an L-
shape and the worktop has been screwed to tall units at each end of
the L, so hopefully the whole thing has some stability. Either way,
there's no real way for me to check now (short of jumping up and down
on it).

Ed Sirett wrote:

0) Make sure that the worktop is firmly supported, it should not sink more
than 1mm when an adult walks on it (don't walk on the bit near the
draining sink/board/hob).
1) Grout the gap flush.
2) When fully set (2 days) use a suitable sealant such as silicone or CT1
or even at a push an Acrylic.
3) Consider you have now passed the unit from the Univ. of life called.
Why I should never deal with Moben/Dolphin(Shark)/Sharp.

Thanks Ed. It doesn't seem to move much (I can barely see it and then
not everywhere). I'm tempted to go this way as if it all goes pear
shaped digging grout out is probably easier than digging sealant out,
especially if it hasn't cured properly inside the gap. Plus this way
I can use silicone where the manufacturers seem willing to give far
greater guarantees of it's lifetime.

On the University of Life thing, I'm a total convert to getting
established locals in now. When we got the windows done they were the
cheapeast, best product and great service.

sm_jamieson wrote:
Make sure the hardboard somehow has some "give" when
you push it down (e.g. newspaper under then pull it out), so you can
break any hardboard/grout seal without forcing the grout outwards, if
you see what I mean. A lot of words for a simple thing. Or, cling film
over hardboard, wax hardboard with candle etc, to act as a release
agent.


Much appreciated - I wouldn't have thought of that, which would have
led to a little stress .

wrote:
Andy Hall wrote:

They rely on that.....

Yep - if only I'd looked for reviews on the internet first.
Incidentally, their contract is for 100% payment on delivery (which
should have been another hint, Qualitas or no Qualitas).


OK, that's not quite so bad. Are these thick tiles to achieve that?
Otherwise how are you achieving this range?

8-9mm tiles with the balance in adhesive.


I would look at making sure that the units are rigidly secured to the
walls so that there isn't movement.

I did see that they were attached to the wall (one per unit), although
I doubt that the individual attachments were all that stable. They
looked like an angle bracket fixed to an offcut that was screwed to
the projecting side panel at the rear. On the plus side, it's an L-
shape and the worktop has been screwed to tall units at each end of
the L, so hopefully the whole thing has some stability. Either way,
there's no real way for me to check now (short of jumping up and down
on it).


So, if you can lose the wall/worktop gap with tile thickness + adhesive,
I assume your only problem is a tapered gap between the worktop and the
bottom edge of the tiles. You can't really make a good job of this with
sealants because, whatever you use, it'll get grubby. Some kind of
upstand might be better.

Stuart Noble wrote:
So, if you can lose the wall/worktop gap with tile thickness + adhesive,
I assume your only problem is a tapered gap between the worktop and the
bottom edge of the tiles. You can't really make a good job of this with
sealants because, whatever you use, it'll get grubby. Some kind of
upstand might be better.

The height dimension of the tile-worktop gap is indeed tapered, but
only by 1mm along 3m so I'm not expecting any problems. It's only 4mm
high at the maximum so likewise I'm not expecting any problems.

My concern was the depth of sealant. I don't know anything about how
sealants cure, so I'm concerned that 4mm high and 12mm deep and 3m
long "wedge" of sealant might just never go solid, might shrink or
might [insert horrible thing I haven't thought of].

There won't be a problem with the sealant falling down the worktop-
wall gap as it was filled with sealant by Moben (a bit haphazardly,
but certainly well enough to stop grout or sealant falling behind the
cupboards).

Although Ed's got me thinking of filling the tile-worktop gap with
flexible gout and then silicone sealing on top, I'd happily create
that huge silicone wedge if I knew it would dry properly with no
unpleasant surprises. Anyone have any experience of over-deep wedges
of silicone?

On 2007-08-20 21:03:10 +0100, "
said:

Stuart Noble wrote:
So, if you can lose the wall/worktop gap with tile thickness + adhesive,
I assume your only problem is a tapered gap between the worktop and the
bottom edge of the tiles. You can't really make a good job of this with
sealants because, whatever you use, it'll get grubby. Some kind of
upstand might be better.

The height dimension of the tile-worktop gap is indeed tapered, but
only by 1mm along 3m so I'm not expecting any problems. It's only 4mm
high at the maximum so likewise I'm not expecting any problems.

My concern was the depth of sealant. I don't know anything about how
sealants cure, so I'm concerned that 4mm high and 12mm deep and 3m
long "wedge" of sealant might just never go solid, might shrink or
might [insert horrible thing I haven't thought of].

There won't be a problem with the sealant falling down the worktop-
wall gap as it was filled with sealant by Moben (a bit haphazardly,
but certainly well enough to stop grout or sealant falling behind the
cupboards).

Although Ed's got me thinking of filling the tile-worktop gap with
flexible gout and then silicone sealing on top, I'd happily create
that huge silicone wedge if I knew it would dry properly with no
unpleasant surprises. Anyone have any experience of over-deep wedges
of silicone?

Yes, and I don't think you need to be concerned about it.

I recently needed to seal at the back of a surface mounted cloakroom
basin. This is nominally square but of course isn't because it needs
to be removed from its mould during manufacturing. Therefore, the
sides have an 89 degree angle relative to the horizontal. This, plus a
slightly rounded top at the back leaves a gap next to the tiles of a
couple of mm at the top.

It could have been left, but I decided that it could become a dirt trap
and therefore wanted a minimally visible seal. I did this in the
following way:

- carefully cut and folded white A4 paper pushed well down into the gap
at the back.

- a light misting of water with a plant sprayer.

- first run of Dow Corning clear silicone sealer filling most of the
gap. Allow to cure for a couple of hours.

- another *very* light spray of water

- second run of silicone slightly over size

- tool the silicone using a plastic tool of the required shape and
using a solution of washing up liquid as a release agent. A plentiful
supply of kitchen paper is needed to wipe the tool, then dip it in the
detergent solution.

For this application, I can recommend the Fugenboy, made by Elch and
sold by Screwfix. There is a similar product by another German
company called FugenAss. However, for some reason, they have not had
a lot of success marketing them in the UK. You can buy them in
France. I'm not sure that Elch got the marketing any better but either
way, these work well.

The purpose of the light misting of water is provide moisture for
curing of the silicone. If the surface becomes visibly wet, then
it's too much.

Andy Hall wrote:
There is a similar product by another German
company called FugenAss. However, for some reason, they have not had
a lot of success marketing them in the UK.

Priceless .

Thanks for the detailed description.

In message . com,
" writes
Andy Hall wrote:
There is a similar product by another German
company called FugenAss. However, for some reason, they have not had
a lot of success marketing them in the UK.

Priceless .

Nothing like as good as Cussons, who marketed a shower gel in Germany
called "Irisher Mist"

Mist is German for manure

it didn't sell well

There was also a liqueur which went by the same name

for some reason, that wasn't a roaring success either


--
geoff

wrote:
Stuart Noble wrote:
So, if you can lose the wall/worktop gap with tile thickness + adhesive,
I assume your only problem is a tapered gap between the worktop and the
bottom edge of the tiles. You can't really make a good job of this with
sealants because, whatever you use, it'll get grubby. Some kind of
upstand might be better.

The height dimension of the tile-worktop gap is indeed tapered, but
only by 1mm along 3m so I'm not expecting any problems. It's only 4mm
high at the maximum so likewise I'm not expecting any problems.

My concern was the depth of sealant. I don't know anything about how
sealants cure, so I'm concerned that 4mm high and 12mm deep and 3m
long "wedge" of sealant might just never go solid, might shrink or
might [insert horrible thing I haven't thought of].

There won't be a problem with the sealant falling down the worktop-
wall gap as it was filled with sealant by Moben (a bit haphazardly,
but certainly well enough to stop grout or sealant falling behind the
cupboards).

Although Ed's got me thinking of filling the tile-worktop gap with
flexible gout and then silicone sealing on top, I'd happily create
that huge silicone wedge if I knew it would dry properly with no
unpleasant surprises. Anyone have any experience of over-deep wedges
of silicone?


No problem with the curing, and this isn't a large wedge by silicone
standards