Hi

Anyone know where I could find the above - Google seems to have been
highjacked by these pesky 'shopping' sites that give lists of completely
irrelevant suppliers.

I want to illuminate the back of a warehouse that suffers regular break ins.
Normal PIR lights would simply be trashed. I found metal cages on CPC which
might solve the problem but I wondered if they would interfere with the
detectors?


--
Dave
The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257

On 2007-05-19 10:44:57 +0100, "The Medway Handyman"
said:

Hi

Anyone know where I could find the above - Google seems to have been
highjacked by these pesky 'shopping' sites that give lists of completely
irrelevant suppliers.

I want to illuminate the back of a warehouse that suffers regular break ins.
Normal PIR lights would simply be trashed. I found metal cages on CPC which
might solve the problem but I wondered if they would interfere with the
detectors?

Use separate detectors and put them up high?

Even so, would adding illumination really deter the miscreants or are
you simply doing what the occupier wants to have?

On Sat, 19 May 2007 10:54:20 +0100, Andy Hall
mused:

On 2007-05-19 10:44:57 +0100, "The Medway Handyman"
said:

Hi

Anyone know where I could find the above - Google seems to have been
highjacked by these pesky 'shopping' sites that give lists of completely
irrelevant suppliers.

I want to illuminate the back of a warehouse that suffers regular break ins.
Normal PIR lights would simply be trashed. I found metal cages on CPC which
might solve the problem but I wondered if they would interfere with the
detectors?

Use separate detectors and put them up high?

Or fit sodium lighting and do away with the useless halogens. We've
fitted them in cages before and never had any real problems though,
they stil work as well as they normally do.

Even so, would adding illumination really deter the miscreants or are
you simply doing what the occupier wants to have?

I'd echo that, generally ensuring that there aren't things there to
vandalise, decent security on the building and perimiter etc... is a
decent deterrent. If the place looks tidy, well cared for, secure and
such like it's not such an atteactive place to vandalise, usually.
--
Regards,
Stuart.

Lurch wrote:
Andy Hall
Anyone know where I could find the above - Google seems to have been
highjacked by these pesky 'shopping' sites that give lists of
completely irrelevant suppliers.

I want to illuminate the back of a warehouse that suffers regular
break ins. Normal PIR lights would simply be trashed. I found
metal cages on CPC which might solve the problem but I wondered if
they would interfere with the detectors?

Use separate detectors and put them up high?

Or fit sodium lighting and do away with the useless halogens. We've
fitted them in cages before and never had any real problems though,
they stil work as well as they normally do.

Even so, would adding illumination really deter the miscreants or are
you simply doing what the occupier wants to have?

What the occupier wants really. But we are both open to ideas.

I'd echo that, generally ensuring that there aren't things there to
vandalise, decent security on the building and perimiter etc... is a
decent deterrent. If the place looks tidy, well cared for, secure and
such like it's not such an atteactive place to vandalise, usually.

It's a 'hair & nail' supplies company. They stock up market hair dryers,
straighteners etc, all the sort of stuff that attracts the wrong people.
It's on a local industrial estate which is fairly remote and the back of the
units is completely unobserved.

First time just before Xmas they smashed in a fire door. I made a temporary
repair on Xmas eve. Undetered they tried again, my repair held - so they
demolished part of a brick wall.

Its really that desolate around the back. CCTV might help, but would that
deter them? And would it help Plod?


--
Dave
The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257

"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message
...
Hi

Anyone know where I could find the above - Google seems to have been
highjacked by these pesky 'shopping' sites that give lists of completely
irrelevant suppliers.

I want to illuminate the back of a warehouse that suffers regular break
ins. Normal PIR lights would simply be trashed. I found metal cages on
CPC which might solve the problem but I wondered if they would interfere
with the detectors?

In an industrial environment, PIR operated lights are mainly of value in
that they will attract the attention of a patrolling guard. If there is no
guard patrol, permanent lighting is a better deterrent. Low pressure sodium
18W SOX lamps in security light enclosures with dusk to dawn photocells are
fairly readily available for this purpose.

Permanent lighting can also be supplemented with CCTV cameras, either
genuine remote monitored cameras or believable dummies. Unmonitored CCTV
does not offer much advantage over good dummies. Unless you spend a lot of
money, the recordings will not be of evidence quality and, even then, there
is no guarantee that they will provide pictures of an identifiable person
committing a criminal act. Simply showing that someone was around when a
crime was committed is not sufficient evidence that they were involved.

However, the main deterrent to break-ins is good physical security. Fit any
windows with security grilles - 20mm bars not more than 100mm apart and
joined by cross-bars at 600mm intervals are considered to be effective
against most attacks. Doors should be avoided if possible. If they have to
be there, for example fire exits, they need to be reinforced with 10swg
steel plate or protected by an external steel fire door security cover. They
should also have secure locks for use when the building is not occupied.

If everything else fails, a final line of defence is a remotely monitored
alarm system. Unmonitored alarms are rarely of any value, particularly on an
industrial site. I will get a telephone call within 90 seconds of an alarm
going off in one of my factories and normally the Police will have already
carried out an external inspection of the unit when I arrive 10 minutes
later.

Colin Bignell

Nightjar wrote;

In an industrial environment, PIR operated lights are mainly of value
in that they will attract the attention of a patrolling guard. If
there is no guard patrol, permanent lighting is a better deterrent.
Low pressure sodium 18W SOX lamps in security light enclosures with
dusk to dawn photocells are fairly readily available for this purpose.

Good point - I'll check to see if there is one.

Permanent lighting can also be supplemented with CCTV cameras, either
genuine remote monitored cameras or believable dummies. Unmonitored
CCTV does not offer much advantage over good dummies. Unless you
spend a lot of money, the recordings will not be of evidence quality
and, even then, there is no guarantee that they will provide pictures
of an identifiable person committing a criminal act. Simply showing
that someone was around when a crime was committed is not sufficient
evidence that they were involved.

Another good point. Dummy CCTV sounds a good idea.

However, the main deterrent to break-ins is good physical security.
Fit any windows with security grilles - 20mm bars not more than 100mm
apart and joined by cross-bars at 600mm intervals are considered to
be effective against most attacks. Doors should be avoided if
possible. If they have to be there, for example fire exits, they need
to be reinforced with 10swg steel plate or protected by an external
steel fire door security cover. They should also have secure locks
for use when the building is not occupied.

No windows at the back, just a fire exit door, which did have a steel
plate - they smashed the frame out! The steel cover sounds good.


Thanks Colin.


--
Dave
The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257

On Sat, 19 May 2007 10:44:57 +0100, "The Medway Handyman"
wrote:

Anyone know where I could find the above

Separate detectors, and site them well (Hidden amongst plumbing is
good). Vandals rarely bother to trash detectors that aren't obvious.

Then cages and strong front glasses over the lights themselves.

In article ,
Lurch writes:
On Sat, 19 May 2007 10:54:20 +0100, Andy Hall
mused:

On 2007-05-19 10:44:57 +0100, "The Medway Handyman"
said:

Hi

Anyone know where I could find the above - Google seems to have been
highjacked by these pesky 'shopping' sites that give lists of completely
irrelevant suppliers.

I want to illuminate the back of a warehouse that suffers regular break ins.
Normal PIR lights would simply be trashed. I found metal cages on CPC which
might solve the problem but I wondered if they would interfere with the
detectors?

No, they work fine through the guards. A flue guard is sometimes
about the right size for a PIR alone. Spiders on the guards can
cause false triggering.

Use separate detectors and put them up high?

The proper position for a light and for a PIR controlling it
are usually quite different anyway.

Or fit sodium lighting and do away with the useless halogens. We've
fitted them in cages before and never had any real problems though,
they stil work as well as they normally do.

Even so, would adding illumination really deter the miscreants or are
you simply doing what the occupier wants to have?

I'd echo that, generally ensuring that there aren't things there to
vandalise, decent security on the building and perimiter etc... is a
decent deterrent. If the place looks tidy, well cared for, secure and
such like it's not such an atteactive place to vandalise, usually.

There are some quite interesting things you can do with lighting
colour too, if your potential vandals are simply teenagers who
are hanging around with nothing to do. Pink has been found to
be a colour many dislike, because it's perceived as girly, and
it highlights teenage acne.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 19 May 2007 10:44:57 +0100, "The Medway Handyman"
wrote:

Anyone know where I could find the above

Separate detectors, and site them well (Hidden amongst plumbing is
good). Vandals rarely bother to trash detectors that aren't obvious.

Then cages and strong front glasses over the lights themselves.

I have a view that most vandals find the 'tools of their trade' very close
to where the crime is committed. Does the estate have a policy of tidiness?

I want to illuminate the back of a warehouse that suffers regular break ins.
Normal PIR lights would simply be trashed. I found metal cages on CPC which
might solve the problem but I wondered if they would interfere with the
detectors?

If you could find a way to trigger the lights, perhaps something like
this ?

http://www.wrtl.co.uk/html/cat-produ...-flow-ip65-10-
20.htm

On 19 May, 11:54, Andy Dingley wrote:
On Sat, 19 May 2007 10:44:57 +0100, "The Medway Handyman"
wrote:

Anyone know where I could find the above

Separate detectors, and site them well (Hidden amongst plumbing is
good). Vandals rarely bother to trash detectors that aren't obvious.

Then cages and strong front glasses over the lights themselves.


I think I'd start by making an assessment of the full costs of this
vandalism. This should motivate your customer to spend a lot more
money wth you.

Then I'd approach the police for advice. I know they do this free for
householders, dont know re business premises, but I'd ask.

With the cost assessment done, you should have a budget for stuff like
steel doors in steel frames, intruder paint, security cameras, etc.

Dont overlook low cost psychological methods as well. These dont catch
criminals, but do often prevent a return attack. Examples would be
camera flashes rigged to a PIR, and an extremely loud burglar alarm
inside the building. I like the idea of those red smoke bombs too,
dont know what they cost though.


NT

On Sat, 19 May 2007 11:34:39 +0100, "The Medway Handyman"
mused:

Lurch wrote:
Andy Hall
Anyone know where I could find the above - Google seems to have been
highjacked by these pesky 'shopping' sites that give lists of
completely irrelevant suppliers.

I want to illuminate the back of a warehouse that suffers regular
break ins. Normal PIR lights would simply be trashed. I found
metal cages on CPC which might solve the problem but I wondered if
they would interfere with the detectors?

Use separate detectors and put them up high?

Or fit sodium lighting and do away with the useless halogens. We've
fitted them in cages before and never had any real problems though,
they stil work as well as they normally do.

Even so, would adding illumination really deter the miscreants or are
you simply doing what the occupier wants to have?

What the occupier wants really. But we are both open to ideas.

I'd echo that, generally ensuring that there aren't things there to
vandalise, decent security on the building and perimiter etc... is a
decent deterrent. If the place looks tidy, well cared for, secure and
such like it's not such an atteactive place to vandalise, usually.

It's a 'hair & nail' supplies company. They stock up market hair dryers,
straighteners etc, all the sort of stuff that attracts the wrong people.
It's on a local industrial estate which is fairly remote and the back of the
units is completely unobserved.

First time just before Xmas they smashed in a fire door. I made a temporary
repair on Xmas eve. Undetered they tried again, my repair held - so they
demolished part of a brick wall.

Its really that desolate around the back. CCTV might help, but would that
deter them? And would it help Plod?

I doubt it would deter them, it may help plod, but none of your cheap
DIY crap would be worth bothering about, CCTV on a commercial, serious
budget scale would, but only if plod actually bother acting on the
footage presented to them.

The lights would maybe deter them slightly, but realistically if
they're that determined then they're going in whatever there is there.
I think physical security is the key here. Security smoke is also
another option, even if they get in they can't do mutch if they can't
see anything.
--
Regards,
Stuart.

On Sat, 19 May 2007 11:50:42 +0100, "The Medway Handyman"
mused:

Nightjar wrote;

In an industrial environment, PIR operated lights are mainly of value
in that they will attract the attention of a patrolling guard. If
there is no guard patrol, permanent lighting is a better deterrent.
Low pressure sodium 18W SOX lamps in security light enclosures with
dusk to dawn photocells are fairly readily available for this purpose.

Good point - I'll check to see if there is one.

Permanent lighting can also be supplemented with CCTV cameras, either
genuine remote monitored cameras or believable dummies. Unmonitored
CCTV does not offer much advantage over good dummies. Unless you
spend a lot of money, the recordings will not be of evidence quality
and, even then, there is no guarantee that they will provide pictures
of an identifiable person committing a criminal act. Simply showing
that someone was around when a crime was committed is not sufficient
evidence that they were involved.

Another good point. Dummy CCTV sounds a good idea.

Waste of time tbh.

However, the main deterrent to break-ins is good physical security.
Fit any windows with security grilles - 20mm bars not more than 100mm
apart and joined by cross-bars at 600mm intervals are considered to
be effective against most attacks. Doors should be avoided if
possible. If they have to be there, for example fire exits, they need
to be reinforced with 10swg steel plate or protected by an external
steel fire door security cover. They should also have secure locks
for use when the building is not occupied.

No windows at the back, just a fire exit door, which did have a steel
plate - they smashed the frame out! The steel cover sounds good.


A mate of mine has a unit and the he had the door steel plated.
Someone accidentally swung a rather large RSJ into it, it dinted it a
bit but it still held, couple of new bolts and that was that really.
--
Regards,
Stuart.

On Sat, 19 May 2007 10:44:57 +0100 The Medway Handyman wrote :
Anyone know where I could find the above - Google seems to have
been highjacked by these pesky 'shopping' sites that give lists
of completely irrelevant suppliers.

Agree with you 100% about price comparison sites. See if Coughtrie
Lighting, http://www.coughtrie.co.uk/index2.html has what you're
after

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk

"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message
...
....
First time just before Xmas they smashed in a fire door. I made a
temporary repair on Xmas eve. Undetered they tried again, my repair
held - so they demolished part of a brick wall.

Its really that desolate around the back. CCTV might help, but would that
deter them? And would it help Plod?

If they are willing to knock a hole in a brick wall, the only thing that is
likely to help is remotely monitored CCTV. There are several security
companies that offer it and the Police will respond quickly to a call from a
CCTV command centre. Some companies will send their own security patrol
instead of calling the Police.

Colin Bignell

On Sun, 20 May 2007 16:23:04 +0100, "nightjar" nightjar@insert my
surname here.uk.com mused:


"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message
...
...
First time just before Xmas they smashed in a fire door. I made a
temporary repair on Xmas eve. Undetered they tried again, my repair
held - so they demolished part of a brick wall.

Its really that desolate around the back. CCTV might help, but would that
deter them? And would it help Plod?

If they are willing to knock a hole in a brick wall, the only thing that is
likely to help is remotely monitored CCTV. There are several security
companies that offer it

By some I assume you mean many.

and the Police will respond quickly to a call from a
CCTV command centre.

Only if it's installed and maintained as a police response system.
Just having a camera on the wall is not going to get monitored.

Some companies will send their own security patrol
instead of calling the Police.
--
Regards,
Stuart.

"Lurch" wrote in message
...
....
If they are willing to knock a hole in a brick wall, the only thing that
is
likely to help is remotely monitored CCTV. There are several security
companies that offer it

By some I assume you mean many.

By several, I mean several.

and the Police will respond quickly to a call from a
CCTV command centre.

Only if it's installed and maintained as a police response system.

I would consider that to be implicit in installation of a remotely monitored
CCTV system installed by a security company.

Colin Bignell

On Mon, 21 May 2007 03:59:43 +0100, "nightjar" nightjar@insert my
surname here.uk.com mused:


"Lurch" wrote in message
.. .
...
If they are willing to knock a hole in a brick wall, the only thing that
is
likely to help is remotely monitored CCTV. There are several security
companies that offer it

By some I assume you mean many.

By several, I mean several.

I do subcontract work for several companies that do rempote monitored
police response CCTV to BS8418 and install and maintain quite a lot of
it. There are many many more companies I know of that do it that I
don't subcontract to atm. How many do you mean by several?

and the Police will respond quickly to a call from a
CCTV command centre.

Only if it's installed and maintained as a police response system.

I would consider that to be implicit in installation of a remotely monitored
CCTV system installed by a security company.

Just clarifying, soe people seem to think that a camera from Argos can
be monitored by the police directly.
--
Regards,
Stuart.

"Lurch" wrote in message
...
... How many do you mean by several?
....

An indefinite quantity, that is more than some, but may or may not be as
large as many.

Colin Bignell

On Tue, 22 May 2007 18:24:23 +0100, "nightjar" nightjar@insert my
surname here.uk.com mused:


"Lurch" wrote in message
.. .
... How many do you mean by several?
...

An indefinite quantity, that is more than some, but may or may not be as
large as many.

Right, AFAIAK severall is about 3, hence my confusion.
--
Regards,
Stuart.

"Lurch" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 22 May 2007 18:24:23 +0100, "nightjar" nightjar@insert my
surname here.uk.com mused:


"Lurch" wrote in message
. ..
... How many do you mean by several?
...

An indefinite quantity, that is more than some, but may or may not be as
large as many.

Right, AFAIAK severall is about 3, hence my confusion.

I've always thought of it as at least seven, probably because of the
phonetics.

Colin Bignell

On Wed, 23 May 2007 01:10:04 +0100, "nightjar" nightjar@insert my
surname here.uk.com mused:


"Lurch" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 22 May 2007 18:24:23 +0100, "nightjar" nightjar@insert my
surname here.uk.com mused:


"Lurch" wrote in message
...
... How many do you mean by several?
...

An indefinite quantity, that is more than some, but may or may not be as
large as many.

Right, AFAIAK severall is about 3, hence my confusion.

I've always thought of it as at least seven, probably because of the
phonetics.

Still, seven is way short of the hundreds of companies that can do
CCTV to BS8418.
--
Regards,
Stuart.