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#1
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Rccb question
Hi All
I have a consumer unit problem that is driving me up the wall ! I installed a Crabtree split-load dual rccb unit in a house with a TT supply, but am having trouble with the split-load rccb (63A 100mA) in that it will not trip using the test button. It does trip however as soon as I put a load on any of the MCBs it feeds. I naturally thought that the rccb was faulty and swapped it for another but this does the same?? The test button operation of the rccb is not rocket science - you press the button which puts a resistive load across live and neutral, the fault sensing winding then trips the rccb. So why doesn't this work?? I now have a 3rd rccb to try but I am confident this will not help things. This has never happened before and the supplier also confirms that repeated failures of crabtree gear is unheard of - it just doesn't happen (though its not impossible) Any ideas? The other rccb (80A 3mA) in the CU is working fine and trips as expected when tested. |
#2
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Rccb question
wrote in message ps.com... Hi All I have a consumer unit problem that is driving me up the wall ! I installed a Crabtree split-load dual rccb unit in a house with a TT supply, but am having trouble with the split-load rccb (63A 100mA) in that it will not trip using the test button. It does trip however as soon as I put a load on any of the MCBs it feeds. I naturally thought that the rccb was faulty and swapped it for another but this does the same?? The test button operation of the rccb is not rocket science - you press the button which puts a resistive load across live and neutral, the fault sensing winding then trips the rccb. So why doesn't this work?? I now have a 3rd rccb to try but I am confident this will not help things. This has never happened before and the supplier also confirms that repeated failures of crabtree gear is unheard of - it just doesn't happen (though its not impossible) Any ideas? The other rccb (80A 3mA) in the CU is working fine and trips as expected when tested. Check that all the neutral tails are in the correct bus bars. I have had two Wylex CUs (made by the same people as Crabtee) where the neutral tails were in the wrong busbar and had identical symptoms. Adam |
#3
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Rccb question
Cheers for the thoughts
I have removed the links so that N1, N2, and N3 are separated and wired as per the tech diagram for this configuration. Basically both rccb's get the common supply neutral (N1) into them and they feed the separate neutrals (N2 and N3) out the other side. I really am scratching over my head over this one, and am on 1st name terms with Crabtree technical haha! Cheers Oldskool |
#4
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Rccb question
Cheers for the thoughts
I have removed the links so that N1, N2, and N3 are separated and wired as per the tech diagram for this configuration. Basically both rccb's get the common supply neutral (N1) into them and they feed the separate neutrals (N2 and N3) out the other side. I really am scratching over my head over this one, and am on 1st name terms with Crabtree technical haha! Cheers Oldskool |
#6
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Rccb question
"Harry Bloomfield" wrote in message ... formulated the question : I naturally thought that the rccb was faulty and swapped it for another but this does the same?? Something rather odd here. The test button operation of the rccb is not rocket science - you press the button which puts a resistive load across live and neutral, the fault sensing winding then trips the rccb. So why doesn't this work?? That is not how it works! The button connects between L and E via a resistor which causes an imbalance between the L and N (not passing an equal current through both conductors), the imbalance is what causes it to trip. Should the button be between L and N then pressing it would not make any difference as the load would remain equally balanced through the two conductors. Combine that with it tripping when ever you do put a load on via an MCB - leads me to suggest that you have crossed or swapped the N & E somewhere in the board. -- Regards, Harry (M1BYT) (L) http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk Beat me to it - fits the symptoms perfectly Nick |
#7
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Rccb question
"Harry Bloomfield" wrote in message ... formulated the question : I naturally thought that the rccb was faulty and swapped it for another but this does the same?? Something rather odd here. The test button operation of the rccb is not rocket science - you press the button which puts a resistive load across live and neutral, the fault sensing winding then trips the rccb. So why doesn't this work?? That is not how it works! It is how it works! The test button is connected to the opposite sides of the sensing coils on the RCD between live and neutral. Most RCDs have a picture of this on them. Adam |
#8
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Rccb question
"ARWadsworth" wrote in message k... "Harry Bloomfield" wrote in message ... formulated the question : I naturally thought that the rccb was faulty and swapped it for another but this does the same?? Something rather odd here. The test button operation of the rccb is not rocket science - you press the button which puts a resistive load across live and neutral, the fault sensing winding then trips the rccb. So why doesn't this work?? That is not how it works! It is how it works! The test button is connected to the opposite sides of the sensing coils on the RCD between live and neutral. Most RCDs have a picture of this on them. Adam Adam, The resistor simulates leakage to Earth - by connecting a conductor (Phase or Neutral) to Earth. Normally, current flows between the two conductors and this is when it should NOT trip. Only when the current is different in each of the flow/return conductors ( i.e. some to Earth) should it trip. The coils for the trip circuit are contra-wound so equal current, in each, balances and no trip is caused |
#9
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Rccb question
"Nick" wrote in message ... "ARWadsworth" wrote in message k... "Harry Bloomfield" wrote in message ... formulated the question : I naturally thought that the rccb was faulty and swapped it for another but this does the same?? Something rather odd here. The test button operation of the rccb is not rocket science - you press the button which puts a resistive load across live and neutral, the fault sensing winding then trips the rccb. So why doesn't this work?? That is not how it works! It is how it works! The test button is connected to the opposite sides of the sensing coils on the RCD between live and neutral. Most RCDs have a picture of this on them. Adam Adam, The resistor simulates leakage to Earth - by connecting a conductor (Phase or Neutral) to Earth. Normally, current flows between the two conductors and this is when it should NOT trip. Only when the current is different in each of the flow/return conductors ( i.e. some to Earth) should it trip. The coils for the trip circuit are contra-wound so equal current, in each, balances and no trip is caused Crabtee RCDs have Lin, Lout, Nin and Nout. Four connections and NO earth. Adam |
#10
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Rccb question
wrote in message oups.com... Cheers for the thoughts I have removed the links so that N1, N2, and N3 are separated and wired as per the tech diagram for this configuration. Basically both rccb's get the common supply neutral (N1) into them and they feed the separate neutrals (N2 and N3) out the other side. I really am scratching over my head over this one, and am on 1st name terms with Crabtree technical haha! You can test the 100mA RCD by swapping it with the 30mA one. Easy and cost free. If the test button works when you have swapped them then assume the RCD works. Adam |
#11
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Rccb question
Crabtee RCDs have Lin, Lout, Nin and Nout. Four connections and NO earth. Adam In which case, the only way the test button can work is to connect a resistor from the L output to the N input ( or vice versa ), so the test current flows through the L current sense , but not the N sense. ( or vice versa ) In this case, the test function is 100% within the RCD, and does not depend on external wiring. If the test button fails to trip it, it must be faulty. So it revolves around exactly how the test button works. Does is actually attempt to flow some curent to earth, or does it just flow some current in one leg which remains un-accounted for in the other? I think we should be told :-) -- Ron |
#12
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Rccb question
Ron Lowe submitted this idea :
Crabtee RCDs have Lin, Lout, Nin and Nout. Four connections and NO earth. Adam In which case, the only way the test button can work is to connect a resistor from the L output to the N input ( or vice versa ), so the test current flows through the L current sense , but not the N sense. ( or vice versa ) In this case, the test function is 100% within the RCD, and does not depend on external wiring. If the test button fails to trip it, it must be faulty. So it revolves around exactly how the test button works. Does is actually attempt to flow some curent to earth, or does it just flow some current in one leg which remains un-accounted for in the other? I think we should be told :-) You are correct Ron, I have just checked my DB in the garage! So the test button must connect a resistor in series with one of the windings, as well as applying a small load to the output. Still amounts to the same thing - he has some how managed to get his connections wrong. -- Regards, Harry (M1BYT) (L) http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk |
#13
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Rccb question
"Ron Lowe" ronATlowe-famlyDOTmeDOTukSPURIOUS wrote in message ... Crabtee RCDs have Lin, Lout, Nin and Nout. Four connections and NO earth. Adam In which case, the only way the test button can work is to connect a resistor from the L output to the N input ( or vice versa ), so the test current flows through the L current sense , but not the N sense. ( or vice versa ) In this case, the test function is 100% within the RCD, and does not depend on external wiring. If the test button fails to trip it, it must be faulty. So it revolves around exactly how the test button works. Does is actually attempt to flow some curent to earth, or does it just flow some current in one leg which remains un-accounted for in the other? I think we should be told :-) http://www.memonline.com/rcd1.html Is the best I can find at the monent. Notice the words "A test circuit is also incorporated whereby connection is made from load phase to supply neutral via a TEST COIL and RESISTOR and activated by a TEST BUTTON." Adam |
#14
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Rccb question
"Ron Lowe" ronATlowe-famlyDOTmeDOTukSPURIOUS wrote in message ... Crabtee RCDs have Lin, Lout, Nin and Nout. Four connections and NO earth. Adam In which case, the only way the test button can work is to connect a resistor from the L output to the N input ( or vice versa ), so the test current flows through the L current sense , but not the N sense. ( or vice versa ) In this case, the test function is 100% within the RCD, and does not depend on external wiring. If the test button fails to trip it, it must be faulty. Not if there is no neutral present. You need the potential difference to make the current. Adam |
#15
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Rccb question
I now have a 3rd rccb to try but I am confident this will not help things. This has never happened before and the supplier also confirms that repeated failures of crabtree gear is unheard of - it just doesn't happen (though its not impossible) Any ideas? Last year I had 3 Wylex split load CUs in a row where the RCD was faulty straight out of the box. Different problem, would not latch closed. (before installation). Allan |
#16
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Rccb question
You are correct Ron, I have just checked my DB in the garage! So the
test button must connect a resistor in series with one of the windings, as well as applying a small load to the output. Still amounts to the same thing - he has some how managed to get his connections wrong. I have checked the technical drawings in the Crabtree catalogue and it is definitely correct. It does appear that the test facility is entirely within the rccb and there is no connection to earth at all. I'm not sure how I could get my connections wrong as this should function work within the CU independant of any connections with regard to the domestic circuits. Snippet from the rccb installation instructions: 1)The incoming cables to the rccb may be taken either to the top or bottom set of terminals, dependant entirely on the ease of wiring the device 2) As the rccb works on the current balance principle, all cables feeding the protected installation (live and neutral) must be connected to the device. If this is not complied with, continuous nuisance tripping of the breaker will result when power is drawn from the supply. I know that no.2 above sounds like I haven't connected a neutral but if that were the case the other rccb wouldn't work either.. 3) Having installed the unit and switched on the rccb, press the test button in order to test the correct function of the device. This ONLY tests the operation of the rccb and not the continuity or value of earth resistance path Surely a rudimentary test would be for me to connect one set of the L & N on the rccb to a flying lead plugged into my socket ring main and hit the test button? This would save me trekking over to the installation yet again to find it not work again! Thanks for all your views |
#17
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Rccb question
On 28 Feb, 16:48, wrote:
Hi All I have a consumer unit problem that is driving me up the wall ! I installed a Crabtree split-load dual rccb unit in a house with a TT supply, but am having trouble with the split-load rccb (63A 100mA) in that it will not trip using the test button. It does trip however as soon as I put a load on any of the MCBs it feeds. I naturally thought that the rccb was faulty and swapped it for another but this does the same?? The test button operation of the rccb is not rocket science - you press the button which puts a resistive load across live and neutral, the fault sensing winding then trips the rccb. So why doesn't this work?? I now have a 3rd rccb to try but I am confident this will not help things. This has never happened before and the supplier also confirms that repeated failures of crabtree gear is unheard of - it just doesn't happen (though its not impossible) Any ideas? The other rccb (80A 3mA) in the CU is working fine and trips as expected when tested. Sounds as though the live input and output of the RCD is wired in opposite direction through the neutral input and output. The intended cross path provided by the test button will not cause imbalance. Any normal current will immediately trip the unit. Check the input live and neutral go to the right input terminals and the output goes to the load @(i.e. the MCB busbar and the protected Neutral rail) Most likely error is in the neutral connections If this is not the case try posting a photo on a suitable site. |
#18
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Rccb question
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#19
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Rccb question
In article om,
wrote: I now have a 3rd rccb to try but I am confident this will not help things. This has never happened before and the supplier also confirms that repeated failures of crabtree gear is unheard of - it just doesn't happen (though its not impossible) Any ideas? Assuming you've wired the CU correctly, I'd be looking for a neutral funny elsewhere. Something like a shared neutral. -- *When the chips are down, the buffalo is empty* Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#20
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Rccb question
Snippet from the rccb installation instructions: 1)The incoming cables to the rccb may be taken either to the top or bottom set of terminals, dependant entirely on the ease of wiring the device The source L & N must be taken AS A SET to either the top or bottom SET of terminals. The output L & N is from the other SET (top or bottom). Splitting the sets will cause the exact symptoms you describe. If that is the case, how do you propose I connect it up in light of the following rccb terminal layout: There is a neutral connection on the top of the rccb. On the bottom there are two live terminal pins (which plug directly into the CU busbar) and a neutral connection The unit is a Crabtree split-load rccb part no 363/s100 What would you do? Cheers |
#21
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Rccb question
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#22
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Rccb question
In article .com,
wrote: The source L & N must be taken AS A SET to either the top or bottom SET of terminals. The output L & N is from the other SET (top or bottom). Splitting the sets will cause the exact symptoms you describe. If that is the case, how do you propose I connect it up in light of the following rccb terminal layout: There is a neutral connection on the top of the rccb. On the bottom there are two live terminal pins (which plug directly into the CU busbar) and a neutral connection The unit is a Crabtree split-load rccb part no 363/s100 Are you missing the two neutral buss bars? One is used for the non RCD protected side, the other for the RCD protected. And both neutrals from say a ring must go to the correct one. I'd switch everything off (including MCBs) and check the resistance between the two bars. It should be near infinite. -- *Organized Crime Is Alive And Well; It's Called Auto Insurance. * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#23
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Rccb question
explained on 28/02/2007 :
Surely a rudimentary test would be for me to connect one set of the L & N on the rccb to a flying lead plugged into my socket ring main and hit the test button? My understanding of it suggests that nothing needs to be connected to the output of the RCD, for it to be tripped by pressing the test button - all it should need is a L & N on the input. -- Regards, Harry (M1BYT) (L) http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk |
#24
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Rccb question
wrote in message ups.com... You are correct Ron, I have just checked my DB in the garage! So the test button must connect a resistor in series with one of the windings, as well as applying a small load to the output. Still amounts to the same thing - he has some how managed to get his connections wrong. I have checked the technical drawings in the Crabtree catalogue and it is definitely correct. It does appear that the test facility is entirely within the rccb and there is no connection to earth at all. I'm not sure how I could get my connections wrong as this should function work within the CU independant of any connections with regard to the domestic circuits. Snippet from the rccb installation instructions: 1)The incoming cables to the rccb may be taken either to the top or bottom set of terminals, dependant entirely on the ease of wiring the device 2) As the rccb works on the current balance principle, all cables feeding the protected installation (live and neutral) must be connected to the device. If this is not complied with, continuous nuisance tripping of the breaker will result when power is drawn from the supply. I know that no.2 above sounds like I haven't connected a neutral but if that were the case the other rccb wouldn't work either.. 3) Having installed the unit and switched on the rccb, press the test button in order to test the correct function of the device. This ONLY tests the operation of the rccb and not the continuity or value of earth resistance path Surely a rudimentary test would be for me to connect one set of the L & N on the rccb to a flying lead plugged into my socket ring main and hit the test button? This would save me trekking over to the installation yet again to find it not work again! With the 100mA RCD switched off, what voltage do you read between the top right N connection and the main incoming live? Adam |
#25
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Rccb question
On 1 Mar, 12:15, wrote:
Snippet from the rccb installation instructions: 1)The incoming cables to the rccb may be taken either to the top or bottom set of terminals, dependant entirely on the ease of wiring the device The source L & N must be taken AS A SET to either the top or bottom SET of terminals. The output L & N is from the other SET (top or bottom). Splitting the sets will cause the exact symptoms you describe. If that is the case, how do you propose I connect it up in light of the following rccb terminal layout: There is a neutral connection on the top of the rccb. On the bottom there are two live terminal pins (which plug directly into the CU busbar) and a neutral connection The unit is a Crabtree split-load rccb part no 363/s100 What would you do? Cheers How are you getting two pins from the live busbar into one terminal on the Rcd? I think we really need a photograph. to make sense of what you have |
#26
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Rccb question
On 1 Mar 2007 11:37:22 -0800, "cynic" mused:
On 1 Mar, 12:15, wrote: Snippet from the rccb installation instructions: 1)The incoming cables to the rccb may be taken either to the top or bottom set of terminals, dependant entirely on the ease of wiring the device The source L & N must be taken AS A SET to either the top or bottom SET of terminals. The output L & N is from the other SET (top or bottom). Splitting the sets will cause the exact symptoms you describe. If that is the case, how do you propose I connect it up in light of the following rccb terminal layout: There is a neutral connection on the top of the rccb. On the bottom there are two live terminal pins (which plug directly into the CU busbar) and a neutral connection The unit is a Crabtree split-load rccb part no 363/s100 What would you do? Cheers How are you getting two pins from the live busbar into one terminal on the Rcd? I think we really need a photograph. to make sense of what you have On the bottom of the RCD are two plug in pins. One takes the power from the end of the non-RCD'd busbar and the other pin plugs into the RCD protected busbar. The busbar is split behind the RCD. -- Regards, Stuart. |
#27
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Rccb question
On 2 Mar, 17:43, Lurch wrote:
On 1 Mar 2007 11:37:22 -0800, "cynic" mused: On 1 Mar, 12:15, wrote: Snippet from the rccb installation instructions: 1)The incoming cables to the rccb may be taken either to the top or bottom set of terminals, dependant entirely on the ease of wiring the device The source L & N must be taken AS A SET to either the top or bottom SET of terminals. The output L & N is from the other SET (top or bottom). Splitting the sets will cause the exact symptoms you describe. If that is the case, how do you propose I connect it up in light of the following rccb terminal layout: There is a neutral connection on the top of the rccb. On the bottom there are two live terminal pins (which plug directly into the CU busbar) and a neutral connection The unit is a Crabtree split-load rccb part no 363/s100 What would you do? Cheers How are you getting two pins from the live busbar into one terminal on the Rcd? I think we really need a photograph. to make sense of what you have On the bottom of the RCD are two plug in pins. One takes the power from the end of the non-RCD'd busbar and the other pin plugs into the RCD protected busbar. The busbar is split behind the RCD. -- Regards, Stuart.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I'm even more confused now. I thought it was the mains incoming time delayed RCD which was tripping. In this case I would expect the L & N meter tails to go into the top two 100mA RCD terminals. From the bottom I'd expect there to be a Live connection to the L of the 30mA RCD and a connection to the 100mA protected busbar section for lighting and fixed equipment. The (other bottom terminal) Neutral output from the 100mA RCD would connect to the input N of the 30mA RCD and to the 100mA protected Neutral bar. The 30mA (fast) RCD would have its own bit of busbar for socket outlets and similar together with its own bit of Neutral bar for these associated circuits. If two or maybe three 100mA RCDs are showing the same failure to trip by their own test button it does point to either live or neutral connections being to the "wrong" end of the RCD i.e. diagonally across corner connected. This would not give a leakage path simulation by the button but would give a trip by normal current flow. We need pictures! |
#28
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Rccb question
On 2 Mar 2007 23:04:21 -0800, "cynic" mused:
How are you getting two pins from the live busbar into one terminal on the Rcd? I think we really need a photograph. to make sense of what you have On the bottom of the RCD are two plug in pins. One takes the power from the end of the non-RCD'd busbar and the other pin plugs into the RCD protected busbar. The busbar is split behind the RCD. -- Regards, Stuart.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I'm even more confused now. I thought it was the mains incoming time delayed RCD which was tripping. In this case I would expect the L & N meter tails to go into the top two 100mA RCD terminals. From the bottom I'd expect there to be a Live connection to the L of the 30mA RCD and a connection to the 100mA protected busbar section for lighting and fixed equipment. The (other bottom terminal) Neutral output from the 100mA RCD would connect to the input N of the 30mA RCD and to the 100mA protected Neutral bar. The 30mA (fast) RCD would have its own bit of busbar for socket outlets and similar together with its own bit of Neutral bar for these associated circuits. If two or maybe three 100mA RCDs are showing the same failure to trip by their own test button it does point to either live or neutral connections being to the "wrong" end of the RCD i.e. diagonally across corner connected. This would not give a leakage path simulation by the button but would give a trip by normal current flow. We need pictures! Yeah, actually, I'm confused now! Pictures required. -- Regards, Stuart. |
#29
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Rccb question
On 28 Feb, 17:08, wrote:
Cheers for the thoughts I have removed the links so that N1, N2, and N3 are separated and wired as per the tech diagram for this configuration. Basically both rccb's get the common supply neutral (N1) into them and they feed the separate neutrals (N2 and N3) out the other side. I really am scratching over my head over this one, and am on 1st name terms with Crabtree technical haha! Cheers Oldskool Revisiting this post - are you saying that the two RCDs have the meter tail neutral into them both in parallel but one Rcd (the 100mA one) has the live meter tail feeding it and the output of the live side goes to the 30mA RCD and the 100mA protected bus bar? If I've read you right the 30mA protected circuits take the live current through the 100mA AND the 30mA RCDs but the neutral return current passes through the 30mA and NOT the 100mA unit. This means there is bound to be an imbalance in the 100mA RCD if any current is drawn through the 30mA RCD protected circuits and the 100mA RCD will trip as soon as a load is switched on. In short it aint wired up right! |
#30
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Rccb question
Theunitis a Crabtree split-load rccb part no 363/s100 What would you do? Well, I'd fix it using m skills as an electrician to test everything and make 300% sure everything is actually the right polarity. Simple really, but you haven't filled me with confidence so I'm guessing you haven't been through and tested everything? -- Regards, Stuart.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Just an update on this for those interested. The third rccb did actually work thus proving the previous two to be at fault, which is a first indeed! (Live and learn eh? - Not to use Crabtree again that is!) Thanks for your contributions in trying to work this out. For the posts questioning my abilities I know you can't assume knowledge automatically, but believe me when I say that I did test and check everything before running to this newsgroup as a last resort. It's nice that some people actually took that as read... |
#31
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Rccb question
On Wednesday, 28 February 2007 17:08:04 UTC, wrote:
Cheers for the thoughts I have removed the links so that N1, N2, and N3 are separated and wired as per the tech diagram for this configuration. Basically both rccb's get the common supply neutral (N1) into them and they feed the separate neutrals (N2 and N3) out the other side. I really am scratching over my head over this one, and am on 1st name terms with Crabtree technical haha! Cheers I am having exactly the same problem, wondered if you have solved it. Ive replaced the split rcd unit But with no joy. My unit is split on a stack one above the other With the bottom rcd working perfectly. The earth reading is 45 ohms well within the regs. All connections have been copied from a split none stacked board. Any help gratefully received. Oldskool |
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