I'll soon be doing some minor pipework when replacing a pedestal basin
with a recessed one in a cabinet. This will involve moving the pipes
from the back of the pedestal close to the wall so that they are at
the back of the cabinet.

I want to use Speedfit 15mm isolation valves but wonder if they are
reliable under mains pressure (cold tap) or high temperatures (hot
tap). If there's any doubt, I'll use compression fittings but prefer
pushfit.

Thanks all
Steve

"stevep" wrote in message
oups.com...
I'll soon be doing some minor pipework when replacing a pedestal basin
with a recessed one in a cabinet. This will involve moving the pipes
from the back of the pedestal close to the wall so that they are at
the back of the cabinet.

I want to use Speedfit 15mm isolation valves but wonder if they are
reliable under mains pressure (cold tap) or high temperatures (hot
tap). If there's any doubt, I'll use compression fittings but prefer
pushfit.

well they are spec'd up to 65deg which is as hot as hot water should ever
be. In any event an isolated hot leg doesn't get or stay hot. You need to
chose between the tap version and the screwdriver operated version. Horses
for courses, do you want to operate them with or without a screwdriver. I
could add upside down in a dark cupboard. Never had a problem (except
engaging the screwdriver upside down in a dark cupboard).

Jim A

On 19 Feb 2007 05:25:03 -0800 someone who may be "stevep"
wrote this:-

I want to use Speedfit 15mm isolation valves

Why?

but wonder if they are
reliable under mains pressure (cold tap) or high temperatures (hot
tap).

According to the manufacturers they can be fitted to mains pressure
and hot water pipes. However, they would say that wouldn't they?

I'm sure there are millions in use around the world, but I wouldn't
use one in my house as I have seen what happens when they fail.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On 19 Feb, 13:25, "stevep" wrote:
I'll soon be doing some minor pipework when replacing a pedestal basin
with a recessed one in a cabinet. This will involve moving the pipes
from the back of the pedestal close to the wall so that they are at
the back of the cabinet.

I want to use Speedfit 15mm isolation valves but wonder if they are
reliable under mains pressure (cold tap) or high temperatures (hot
tap). If there's any doubt, I'll use compression fittings but prefer
pushfit.

Thanks all
Steve


I really would not recommend Speedfit's screwdriver-operated isolation
valves. Complete rubbish. The plastic they are made from is so soft
that the screw head deforms as soon as you touch it with a
screwdriver, and then it's set on (or off) for ever. Their hand valves
are much better, but much bigger too. I'd use someone else's ,
although I have no experience of any other pushfit manufacturer.

One thing atht has always worried me about Speedfit in hot water
applications is that they say they are not suitable for constantly
circulating systems such as hotels, large buildigs etc. Why would that
be I wonder?

With hindsight, I'm not sure I'd have used Speedfit for my hot water.
It was quick to install, but there's the constant nagging worry that
one of the joints is going to pop off. Copper brings peace of mind, at
least to my mind anyway!

Jon.

On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 07:08:24 -0800, Tournifreak wrote:

On 19 Feb, 13:25, "stevep" wrote:
I'll soon be doing some minor pipework when replacing a pedestal basin
with a recessed one in a cabinet. This will involve moving the pipes
from the back of the pedestal close to the wall so that they are at
the back of the cabinet.

I want to use Speedfit 15mm isolation valves but wonder if they are
reliable under mains pressure (cold tap) or high temperatures (hot
tap). If there's any doubt, I'll use compression fittings but prefer
pushfit.

I really would not recommend Speedfit's screwdriver-operated isolation
valves. Complete rubbish. The plastic they are made from is so soft
that the screw head deforms as soon as you touch it with a
screwdriver, and then it's set on (or off) for ever. Their hand valves
are much better, but much bigger too. I'd use someone else's ,
although I have no experience of any other pushfit manufacturer.

Speedfit do a metal bodied version for central heating applications (the
plastic ones are specified as not being suitable for CH). I haven't used
them. I agree about the their regular valves: plastic like ripe brie.

If I really need a push-fit isolation valve I use the ones with handles
which are OK, but mostly I find compression valves easier to use if the
pipework has to be bent out of line to get the valve in which will snag on
and wreck the O-rings in a push-fit.

"David Hansen" wrote in message
...
On 19 Feb 2007 05:25:03 -0800 someone who may be "stevep"
wrote this:-

I want to use Speedfit 15mm isolation valves

Why?

but wonder if they are
reliable under mains pressure (cold tap) or high temperatures (hot
tap).

According to the manufacturers they can be fitted to mains pressure
and hot water pipes. However, they would say that wouldn't they?

I'm sure there are millions in use around the world, but I wouldn't
use one in my house as I have seen what happens when they fail.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

How do you move water arund your house then, because copper fails as well as
speedfit, normally for the sames reasons, damge or poor installation.
Personally I have no preference for either.

--

Regards

Steve Dawson

On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 19:18:27 GMT someone who may be "Stephen Dawson"
wrote this:-

copper fails as well as
speedfit, normally for the sames reasons, damge or poor installation.

Soldered and compression joints rarely, if ever, come apart totally
in an instant, leaving open ended pipes out of which water can flow.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

"David Hansen" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 19:18:27 GMT someone who may be "Stephen Dawson"
wrote this:-

copper fails as well as
speedfit, normally for the sames reasons, damge or poor installation.

Soldered and compression joints rarely, if ever, come apart totally
in an instant, leaving open ended pipes out of which water can flow.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

I can safely say I have never had speedfit fail, except for one occasion,
and that was user error by me, they don't work on chrome pipe. And it says
that in the booklet. I just forgot.

Regards

Steve

On 20 Feb, 08:04, "Stephen Dawson" wrote:
"David Hansen" wrote in message

...

On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 19:18:27 GMT someone who may be "Stephen Dawson"
wrote this:-

copper fails as well as
speedfit, normally for the sames reasons, damge or poor installation.

Soldered and compression joints rarely, if ever, come apart totally
in an instant, leaving open ended pipes out of which water can flow.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

I can safely say I have never had speedfit fail,

I have. Thankfully low pressure, cold water. It was a slow dripping
that stared about a year after installation, and went undetected for
perhaps 2-3 weeks. Made a right mess of part of a new kitchen!

Cause? Hard to say - probably my fault. Probably didn't push the pipe
far enough into the fitting. But I've never had a soldered copper
fitting go wrong, and I've done dozens and dozens of each. To my mind
the problem with Speedfit is that you can get it wrong, and it will
work OK for a while, then leak. Copper tends to be obvious when it's
wrong, and lasts for ever if it's right.

I'd use it again, but more carefully.

Jon.

On 20 Feb 2007 00:14:50 -0800 someone who may be "Tournifreak"
wrote this:-

I can safely say I have never had speedfit fail,

I have. Thankfully low pressure, cold water.

When they fail suddenly on mains pressure water they are most
spectacular, if it happens while the house is unoccupied it will get
very wet.

Copper tends to be obvious when it's
wrong, and lasts for ever if it's right.

Indeed. Different failure modes to push fit fittings.



--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

"David Hansen" wrote in message
...
On 20 Feb 2007 00:14:50 -0800 someone who may be "Tournifreak"
wrote this:-

I can safely say I have never had speedfit fail,

I have. Thankfully low pressure, cold water.

When they fail suddenly on mains pressure water they are most
spectacular, if it happens while the house is unoccupied it will get
very wet.

Copper tends to be obvious when it's
wrong, and lasts for ever if it's right.

Indeed. Different failure modes to push fit fittings.

and what failure modes are you suggesting cause (1) Speedfit in particular
or (2) pushfit in general fail?

These are engineered products which if they fail when used properly must be
for a reason. Surely the reason, if any, is the issue not the product.

Jim A

"David Hansen" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 19:18:27 GMT someone who may be "Stephen Dawson"
wrote this:-

copper fails as well as
speedfit, normally for the sames reasons, damge or poor installation.

Soldered and compression joints rarely, if ever, come apart totally
in an instant, leaving open ended pipes out of which water can flow.

Not going to disagree that these joints come apart totally in an instant.
That should always be prevented by proper support and clippage anyway. But
in the circumstances posed by the OP, a soldered made by a relatively
inexperienced person with wet pipework would have a very high chance of
leaking. A pushfit joint made properly purely by following instructions
would have a very low chance of leaking even with wet pipework.

Jim A

On Tue, 20 Feb 2007 09:10:28 GMT someone who may be "Jim Alexander"
wrote this:-

These are engineered products which if they fail when used properly must be
for a reason. Surely the reason, if any, is the issue not the product.

A soldered joint is held by the solder all the way round. A
compression fitting is held by an olive and nut. Both are extremely
unlikely to suddenly fail completely.

Push fit fittings are held by a few little bits of metal that, in
theory, grip the pipe strongly enough that water pressure will not
push the thing apart. I prefer solder or a nut, others may laugh at
this "old fashioned" attitude but I will continue to adopt it.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On Tue, 20 Feb 2007 09:18:46 GMT someone who may be "Jim Alexander"
wrote this:-

in the circumstances posed by the OP, a soldered made by a relatively
inexperienced person with wet pipework would have a very high chance of
leaking.

It would have a chance of leaking. However, this leaking is not
likely to be at a great rate. More importantly, the chances of such
a joint appearing to be fine and then suddenly failing after a week
or a month are negligible.

A pushfit joint made properly purely by following instructions
would have a very low chance of leaking even with wet pipework.

As would a soldered joint made following the instructions in any
book on the subject. If they used a compression fitting they
wouldn't even have to dry the pipes.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

Thanks for all your replies.

I had a nagging doubt about plastic isolation valves and your comments
will steer me away from these.

Cheers
Steve

On Tue, 20 Feb 2007 11:52:07 +0000, David Hansen wrote:

On Tue, 20 Feb 2007 09:10:28 GMT someone who may be "Jim Alexander"
wrote this:-

These are engineered products which if they fail when used properly must be
for a reason. Surely the reason, if any, is the issue not the product.

A soldered joint is held by the solder all the way round. A
compression fitting is held by an olive and nut. Both are extremely
unlikely to suddenly fail completely.

Push fit fittings are held by a few little bits of metal that, in
theory, grip the pipe strongly enough that water pressure will not
push the thing apart. I prefer solder or a nut, others may laugh at
this "old fashioned" attitude but I will continue to adopt it.

Horses for courses. I'd think twice about using a push-fit coupler above a
lath and horse-hair plaster and fancy corniced ceiling over a room full of
priceless furniture, but if I'm making a rat's nest of connections here
there and everywhere at the back of a kitchen sink on a solid ground floor
where you need to be a yoga guru to even reach in to the pipework then
pushfit wins hands-down.

On Tue, 20 Feb 2007 12:56:07 GMT someone who may be
wrote this:-

Under freezing conditions, a compression joint can pull out of the olive.
Under similar conditions a soldered joint is more likely to split the pipe.

If the pipes are not protected against frost. However, under the
same conditions the little bits of metal in a pushfit connector are
going to provide even less resistance to the joint coming apart.



--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

"David Hansen" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 20 Feb 2007 12:56:07 GMT someone who may be
wrote this:-

Under freezing conditions, a compression joint can pull out of the olive.
Under similar conditions a soldered joint is more likely to split the
pipe.

If the pipes are not protected against frost. However, under the
same conditions the little bits of metal in a pushfit connector are
going to provide even less resistance to the joint coming apart.

That would be to the good strangely enough if that is what feezing would
cause. A push-fit pipe has to be forced out at least 10mm before it will
fail after thawing. Though push-fit joints are not proof against
freezing, unlike copper pipe, freezing won't burst polyb pipe. As others
have opinioned there is an element of horses for courses here. I'm not
criticising advocates of solder or compression but I am comfortable with my
own installed push-fit pipework. Not a huge fan of Speedfit over Hep but
its very low insertion force has it's advantages in really difficult
locations.

Jim A

On Tue, 20 Feb 2007 16:05:18 GMT someone who may be "Jim Alexander"
wrote this:-

Though push-fit joints are not proof against
freezing, unlike copper pipe, freezing won't burst polyb pipe.

Plastic pipes can also be joined by compression fittings, so the
point is void.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

"stevep" wrote in message
oups.com...
I'll soon be doing some minor pipework when replacing a pedestal basin
with a recessed one in a cabinet. This will involve moving the pipes
from the back of the pedestal close to the wall so that they are at
the back of the cabinet.

I want to use Speedfit 15mm isolation valves but wonder if they are
reliable under mains pressure (cold tap) or high temperatures (hot
tap). If there's any doubt, I'll use compression fittings but prefer
pushfit.

Use compression Avoid pushfit. Too many problems with these. Compression
is easy.

"Stephen Dawson" wrote in message
...

"David Hansen" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 19:18:27 GMT someone who may be "Stephen Dawson"
wrote this:-

copper fails as well as
speedfit, normally for the sames reasons, damge or poor installation.

Soldered and compression joints rarely, if ever, come apart totally
in an instant, leaving open ended pipes out of which water can flow.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

I can safely say I have never had speedfit fail,

You are a very lucky man.

except for one occasion,

Oh he has now.

"Tournifreak" wrote in message
ups.com...

One thing atht has always worried me about Speedfit in hot water
applications is that they say they are not suitable for constantly
circulating systems such as hotels, large buildigs etc. Why would that
be I wonder?

The chlorine in a secondary circulation loop attacks the plastic.

With hindsight, I'm not sure I'd have used Speedfit for my hot water.
It was quick to install, but there's the constant nagging worry that
one of the joints is going to pop off. Copper brings peace of mind, at
least to my mind anyway!

Yep.

On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 01:49:21 -0000, Doctor Drivel wrote:

"stevep" wrote in message
oups.com...
I'll soon be doing some minor pipework when replacing a pedestal basin
with a recessed one in a cabinet. This will involve moving the pipes
from the back of the pedestal close to the wall so that they are at
the back of the cabinet.

I want to use Speedfit 15mm isolation valves but wonder if they are
reliable under mains pressure (cold tap) or high temperatures (hot
tap). If there's any doubt, I'll use compression fittings but prefer
pushfit.

Use compression Avoid pushfit. Too many problems with these. Compression
is easy.

Ignore Drivel. His bad opinion of pushfit is based entirely on his
inability to read and follow instructions.

On Tue, 20 Feb 2007 11:52:07 +0000, David Hansen wrote:

Push fit fittings are held by a few little bits of metal that, in
theory, grip the pipe strongly enough that water pressure will not
push the thing apart. I prefer solder or a nut, others may laugh at
this "old fashioned" attitude but I will continue to adopt it.

Whereas compression fittings are held by one little bit of metal. I'll take
the laugh option, thanks for the offer.

On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 01:59:36 -0000, Doctor Drivel wrote:

"Tournifreak" wrote in message
ups.com...

One thing atht has always worried me about Speedfit in hot water
applications is that they say they are not suitable for constantly
circulating systems such as hotels, large buildigs etc. Why would that
be I wonder?

The chlorine in a secondary circulation loop attacks the plastic.

Bull****.

The reason is given in the Speedfit product guide (p 38), commercial ring
mains have constant temperatures higher than 65C which is outside the
operating range of Speedfit pipe and fittings. However domestic ring mains
which have intermittent temperatures lower than 65C are OK with Speedfit.

On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 02:36:55 +0000 someone who may be Steve Firth
wrote this:-

Whereas compression fittings are held by one little bit of metal.

Incorrect, they are held by two large bits of metal, the nut and the
thread on the end of the fitting. Far more solid than some little
metal springs.

Thanks for playing.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

"David Hansen" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 02:36:55 +0000 someone who may be Steve Firth
wrote this:-

Whereas compression fittings are held by one little bit of metal.

Incorrect, they are held by two large bits of metal, the nut and the
thread on the end of the fitting. Far more solid than some little
metal springs.

Thanks for playing.

He is not playing, he is actually serious. He does think knows about it.

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 01:59:36 -0000, Doctor Drivel wrote:

"Tournifreak" wrote in message
ups.com...

One thing atht has always worried me about Speedfit in hot water
applications is that they say they are not suitable for constantly
circulating systems such as hotels, large buildigs etc. Why would that
be I wonder?

The chlorine in a secondary circulation loop attacks the plastic.

Bull****.

You must eff off as you are a total idiot.

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 01:49:21 -0000, Doctor Drivel wrote:

"stevep" wrote in message
oups.com...
I'll soon be doing some minor pipework when replacing a pedestal basin
with a recessed one in a cabinet. This will involve moving the pipes
from the back of the pedestal close to the wall so that they are at
the back of the cabinet.

I want to use Speedfit 15mm isolation valves but wonder if they are
reliable under mains pressure (cold tap) or high temperatures (hot
tap). If there's any doubt, I'll use compression fittings but prefer
pushfit.

Use compression Avoid pushfit. Too many problems with these.
Compression
is easy.

Ig

Please eff off, it is clear you are an idiot.

On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 07:12:18 +0000, David Hansen wrote:

On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 02:36:55 +0000 someone who may be Steve Firth
wrote this:-

Whereas compression fittings are held by one little bit of metal.

Incorrect, they are held by two large bits of metal, the nut and the
thread on the end of the fitting. Far more solid than some little
metal springs.

No, you fail to understand how compression fittings work. The only thing
stopping the pipe from releasing is the olive. If the nut is secured but
the olive is not compressed then the joint will fail. It's that one small
piece of metal that makes the joint.

Thanks for playing.

Thanks for proving that smugness is no substitute for knowledge.

I have made a decision and should like to thank you all again for your
help.

I've opted for a set of compression fit full-bore ball valves. These
might be overkill compared to standard compression fit isolation
valves but the price was good and I can use the spare ones elsewhere.
Also, having handles on the valves rather than fiddling about with a
screwdriver certainly appeals.

Not that I'm knocking pushfit. I will likely be using at least one in
an awkward area that will be a bit difficult for spanners. Speedfit
is on the list given its additional twist-and-lock feature - got to be
more secure.

All the best everyone.
Steve

"stevep" wrote in message
ups.com...


Not that I'm knocking pushfit. I will likely be using at least one in
an awkward area that will be a bit difficult for spanners. Speedfit
is on the list given its additional twist-and-lock feature - got to be
more secure.


yes, but not sure every part is twist and lock yet but if not use a collet
clip for extra security.

Jim A

On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 11:42:24 +0000 someone who may be Steve Firth
wrote this:-

No, you fail to understand how compression fittings work.

Incorrect.

The only thing stopping the pipe from releasing is the olive.

Correct, but the olive is compressed (and held so that it does not
come out of the fitting) by the two large bits of metal that are the
nut and the threaded part of the fitting. The olive itself is also a
large bit of metal, unlike the little springs in a pushfit joint.

If the nut is secured but
the olive is not compressed then the joint will fail.

Under those circumstances the joint will fail instantly. It will not
suddenly fail in a week or a month.

Thanks for proving that smugness is no substitute for knowledge.

Excellent, another personal attack.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54