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UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions. |
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#1
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Look, no rads
Can one heat a stud wall and use it instead of a radiator?
If instead of a rad of 8 sqft we warm an 80 sqft internal stud wall, the wall surface temp rise only need be around 1/10th that of the rad. So instead of 50C above 20 it would need to be around 5C above 20, or 25C. This is a non-problematic wall surface temperature. Presumably the heating would be carried out by microbore with ali fins inside the wall. Is it workable? NT |
#2
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Look, no rads
On Feb 5, 11:07 am, wrote:
Can one heat a stud wall and use it instead of a radiator? If instead of a rad of 8 sqft we warm an 80 sqft internal stud wall, the wall surface temp rise only need be around 1/10th that of the rad. So instead of 50C above 20 it would need to be around 5C above 20, or 25C. This is a non-problematic wall surface temperature. Presumably the heating would be carried out by microbore with ali fins inside the wall. Is it workable? NT You be using air to move the heat from the pipe to the wall which I don't think is all that efficient but what else you'd use I'm not sure. |
#3
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Look, no rads
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#4
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Look, no rads
adder1969 wrote:
On Feb 5, 11:07 am, wrote: Can one heat a stud wall and use it instead of a radiator? If instead of a rad of 8 sqft we warm an 80 sqft internal stud wall, the wall surface temp rise only need be around 1/10th that of the rad. So instead of 50C above 20 it would need to be around 5C above 20, or 25C. This is a non-problematic wall surface temperature. Presumably the heating would be carried out by microbore with ali fins inside the wall. Is it workable? NT You be using air to move the heat from the pipe to the wall which I don't think is all that efficient but what else you'd use I'm not sure. It works fine..the key is to make sure the air is a lower thermal resistance path than the wall to the next room (or to outside)by using plenty of celotex behind the pipes. |
#6
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Look, no rads
On Mon, 05 Feb 2007 03:07:10 -0800, meow2222 wrote:
Can one heat a stud wall and use it instead of a radiator? If instead of a rad of 8 sqft we warm an 80 sqft internal stud wall, the wall surface temp rise only need be around 1/10th that of the rad. So instead of 50C above 20 it would need to be around 5C above 20, or 25C. This is a non-problematic wall surface temperature. Presumably the heating would be carried out by microbore with ali fins inside the wall. Is it workable? NT ================================ Skirting radiators ('Finrad') used 22mm pipes with 3" square aluminium foil fins spaced about 1" apart. You might be able to find some of these but in any case I think 22mm would be far better than 8 /10mm microbore even without fins. You would probably need to make up a manifold rather than have a continuous length of pipe. Given the area you're considering you'll probably get quite a good result compared with skirting heaters since you'll be able to pack so much more into your wall. Cic. -- ================================ Testing UBUNTU Linux Everything working so far ================================ |
#7
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Look, no rads
On 5 Feb 2007 03:07:10 -0800 wrote :
Can one heat a stud wall and use it instead of a radiator? If instead of a rad of 8 sqft we warm an 80 sqft internal stud wall, the wall surface temp rise only need be around 1/10th that of the rad. So instead of 50C above 20 it would need to be around 5C above 20, or 25C. This is a non-problematic wall surface temperature. This is what lies behind underfloor heating, large area, low temperature (and thus ideally suited to condensing boilers or heat pumps). Underfloor heating, though, puts the heat into the room at the most desirable place, low down. The other problem with your idea is that you're presumably putting a sheet of plasterboard in front of the heat source which will seriously impact the heat flow. -- Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk |
#8
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Look, no rads
On Feb 5, 11:07 am, wrote:
Can one heat a stud wall and use it instead of a radiator? Yes. If instead of a rad of 8 sqft we warm an 80 sqft internal stud wall, the wall surface temp rise only need be around 1/10th that of the rad. So instead of 50C above 20 it would need to be around 5C above 20, or 25C. This is a non-problematic wall surface temperature. It's not a simple linear relationship, the proportions of heat emitted by radiation/convection are very different. Presumably the heating would be carried out by microbore with ali fins inside the wall. Pex with ali spreader plates, as per UFH. Is it workable? Been done, a lot. |
#9
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Look, no rads
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#10
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Look, no rads
On Feb 5, 11:07 am, wrote:
Can one heat a stud wall and use it instead of a radiator? If instead of a rad of 8 sqft we warm an 80 sqft internal stud wall, the wall surface temp rise only need be around 1/10th that of the rad. So instead of 50C above 20 it would need to be around 5C above 20, or 25C. This is a non-problematic wall surface temperature. Presumably the heating would be carried out by microbore with ali fins inside the wall. Is it workable? Yes. We were considering building a house in Germany, and went to see a German green builder (Ökohaus Ibach). Their office / show-home had this set-up, but they said it was a bit of a failed experiment. Two major problems: a) cracking in the plaster; b) picture hooks / shelves / etc were a bit of a no-no! |
#11
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Look, no rads
On Mon, 05 Feb 2007 10:04:38 -0800, Martin Bonner wrote:
On Feb 5, 11:07 am, wrote: Can one heat a stud wall and use it instead of a radiator? If instead of a rad of 8 sqft we warm an 80 sqft internal stud wall, the wall surface temp rise only need be around 1/10th that of the rad. So instead of 50C above 20 it would need to be around 5C above 20, or 25C. This is a non-problematic wall surface temperature. Presumably the heating would be carried out by microbore with ali fins inside the wall. Is it workable? Yes. We were considering building a house in Germany, and went to see a German green builder (Ökohaus Ibach). Their office / show-home had this set-up, but they said it was a bit of a failed experiment. Two major problems: a) cracking in the plaster; b) picture hooks / shelves / etc were a bit of a no-no! ================================ Neither problem would be insurmountable though. There are plenty of alternatives to plaster / plasterboard and many different ways of having pictures and shelves. Cic. -- ================================ Testing UBUNTU Linux Everything working so far ================================ |
#12
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Look, no rads
I dont understand why you all want to insulate this wall. Since its an
internal wall, with no insulation it will heat 2 rooms, ie do twice the work at half the price. I realise the relationship isnt really linear, the initial calc just gave a rough figure to begin with, which seemed to indicate it being a runnner. Since the the required rise is so small I think we could safely leave it to regulate its own temp with a TRV or roomstat, just as a metal radiator does. ..also use a temperature reducing system..80C water in a wall isn't going to do the studs a lot of goos! Yes, thats my prime reservation. The wood would be cycled from room temp in summer, and overnight in winter, to 80C or whatever during winter days. Would use of knot free wood be ok, or would it be ok if pipes were attached symmetrically to each upright? I feel doubtful about that. OTOH suspending the vertical pipe runs would mean the wood studs will only see a fraction of this temp rise. Lastly, perhaps enginered wood could be used if needed, or maybe steel studwork. You'll also have to be very careful when subsequently drilling into the wall! Well, you can drill into the studs all you want, except at the very top and bottom where a horizontal run will be needed. Seems like a good price to pay to have no rads or one less rad, which itself represents a large no-drill area. If the vertical runs are unattached, firstly drilling the shallow PB isnt overly likely to hit them, and 2nd if it does they'll just push out the way. It would take very persistent drilling to get through completely unsupported microbore, and the drill goes through plasterboard so quick and easy I dont see that happening. So to my surprise, it looks mostly drillproof. I think 22mm would be far better than 8 /10mm microbore Rigid pipe would be a lot more work to install though. I was hoping to make it an easier quicker job. If full water temp is used, not a reduced temp circuit as with ufh, parallel microbore should be sufficient. Underfloor heating, though, puts the heat into the room at the most desirable place, low down. Perhaps we could plumb it in 2 parallel circuits, one covering the top half and one the bottom half. The top circuit could then be turned down or even off if desired. Or have the bottom circuit do the work until it gets really cold and needs the contribution of the top circuit as well. Not sure how to arrange that ubersimply though, 2 room stats or an outdoor stat plus electric valves would be additional expense and work. The other problem with your idea is that you're presumably putting a sheet of plasterboard in front of the heat source which will seriously impact the heat flow. While we have low conductivity, we also have large surface area and very low output per square requirement. I dont see that as a problem. Plasterboard - thermal resistance of 0.16W/mK. For 12mm, that's around 20 W/m^2/K, or 200W/K. With 70C HW the PB will drop the majority of 70-25=45C. So it will be able to conduct anything upto 45x20 W/m^2 = 900w/sqm, and we only need a wee fraction of that. So it looks like PB is an order of magnitude more conductive than our minimum requirememnt for this. Two major problems: a) cracking in the plaster; Presumably that might be controlled in any of the following ways: 1. Use PB with flexible joint filler with no skim - with care it may be possible to get it looking good. 2. Use lining paper on the PB instead of plastering. 3. I expect plasters of different types have different thermal expansion coefficients, though what they are I dont know. Perhaps we could pick the most stable, or even mix to minimise it. 4. Use pink fire rated PB as it contains crack controlling fibres. 5. Stud materials would also need to be picked to minimise or match expansion, but again I dont know my materials well enough. 6. Or to use cheap unstable studs maybe we could dot & dab the PB on using a flexible glue type material, maybe even silicone beading. b) picture hooks / shelves / etc were a bit of a no-no! Picture hooks are just hollow wall anchors, I dont see those being a problem. Shelves screw into the uprights, so ditto. I cant help but wonder whether these 2 issues might be as much down to their particular design as the concept itself. This looks good. Thanks to everyone for developing this one. Anyone know more about the expansion/cracking side of things? NT |
#13
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Look, no rads
Cicero wrote:
On Mon, 05 Feb 2007 10:04:38 -0800, Martin Bonner wrote: On Feb 5, 11:07 am, wrote: Can one heat a stud wall and use it instead of a radiator? If instead of a rad of 8 sqft we warm an 80 sqft internal stud wall, the wall surface temp rise only need be around 1/10th that of the rad. So instead of 50C above 20 it would need to be around 5C above 20, or 25C. This is a non-problematic wall surface temperature. Presumably the heating would be carried out by microbore with ali fins inside the wall. Is it workable? Yes. We were considering building a house in Germany, and went to see a German green builder (Ökohaus Ibach). Their office / show-home had this set-up, but they said it was a bit of a failed experiment. Two major problems: a) cracking in the plaster; b) picture hooks / shelves / etc were a bit of a no-no! ================================ Neither problem would be insurmountable though. There are plenty of alternatives to plaster / plasterboard and many different ways of having pictures and shelves. Cic. Indeed. I'd probably use MDF. Cracking IS a problem, but lining paper would sort that. |
#15
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Look, no rads
I realise the relationship isnt really linear, the initial calc just gave a rough figure to begin with, which seemed to indicate it being a runnner. Since the the required rise is so small I think we could safely leave it to regulate its own temp with a TRV or roomstat, just as a metal radiator does. A nice idea but you cant use a normal radiator as the basis for even rough calculations Normal radiators are really convectors - just look at the increase in outputs when you start adding a second panel and convector fins. A large heated wall is likely to have very different heat transfer properties - underfloor heating is probably a far better model to use for rough calculations. Robert |
#16
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Look, no rads
On Feb 5, 8:04 pm, wrote:
I dont understand why you all want to insulate this wall. Since its an internal wall, with no insulation it will heat 2 rooms, ie do twice the work at half the price. You lose the option to control the individual rooms. |
#17
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Look, no rads
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#18
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Look, no rads
On Mon, 05 Feb 2007 21:57:49 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Cicero wrote: On Mon, 05 Feb 2007 10:04:38 -0800, Martin Bonner wrote: On Feb 5, 11:07 am, wrote: Can one heat a stud wall and use it instead of a radiator? If instead of a rad of 8 sqft we warm an 80 sqft internal stud wall, the wall surface temp rise only need be around 1/10th that of the rad. So instead of 50C above 20 it would need to be around 5C above 20, or 25C. This is a non-problematic wall surface temperature. Presumably the heating would be carried out by microbore with ali fins inside the wall. Is it workable? Yes. We were considering building a house in Germany, and went to see a German green builder (Ökohaus Ibach). Their office / show-home had this set-up, but they said it was a bit of a failed experiment. Two major problems: a) cracking in the plaster; b) picture hooks / shelves / etc were a bit of a no-no! ================================ Neither problem would be insurmountable though. There are plenty of alternatives to plaster / plasterboard and many different ways of having pictures and shelves. Cic. Indeed. I'd probably use MDF. Cracking IS a problem, but lining paper would sort that. =============================== Since the OP is contemplating a rather unusual form of heating I think he should consider making this *radwall* into something of a designer feature in his home. This opens up all kinds of possibilities such as aluminium frame / translucent glass / aluminium or copper sheet / louvred wood / metal etc. The possibilities are almost limitless. Once you've called something 'designer' you can get away with almost anything. Cic. -- ================================ Testing UBUNTU Linux Everything working so far ================================ |
#19
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Look, no rads
Cicero wrote:
On Mon, 05 Feb 2007 21:57:49 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote: Cicero wrote: On Mon, 05 Feb 2007 10:04:38 -0800, Martin Bonner wrote: On Feb 5, 11:07 am, wrote: Can one heat a stud wall and use it instead of a radiator? If instead of a rad of 8 sqft we warm an 80 sqft internal stud wall, the wall surface temp rise only need be around 1/10th that of the rad. So instead of 50C above 20 it would need to be around 5C above 20, or 25C. This is a non-problematic wall surface temperature. Presumably the heating would be carried out by microbore with ali fins inside the wall. Is it workable? Yes. We were considering building a house in Germany, and went to see a German green builder (Ökohaus Ibach). Their office / show-home had this set-up, but they said it was a bit of a failed experiment. Two major problems: a) cracking in the plaster; b) picture hooks / shelves / etc were a bit of a no-no! ================================ Neither problem would be insurmountable though. There are plenty of alternatives to plaster / plasterboard and many different ways of having pictures and shelves. Cic. Indeed. I'd probably use MDF. Cracking IS a problem, but lining paper would sort that. =============================== Since the OP is contemplating a rather unusual form of heating I think he should consider making this *radwall* into something of a designer feature in his home. This opens up all kinds of possibilities such as aluminium frame / translucent glass / aluminium or copper sheet / louvred wood / metal etc. The possibilities are almost limitless. Once you've called something 'designer' you can get away with almost anything. Cic. True. Cover teh wall with aluminium cladding as used to make containers for shipping..that would increase the surface area and provide a conductive path..;-) Or better still, go to a computer recycling place and dot and dab the wall with a plating of computer CPU heatsinks, sprayed a nice set of colors - could do a mosaic type design. The mind boggles |
#20
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Look, no rads
Looks like this reply got lost in the ether...
Yes, thats my prime reservation. The wood would be cycled from room temp in summer, and overnight in winter, to 80C or whatever during winter days. That is too much. You want to keep water temps down to around 45C max, and use a LOT of pipe. Do we really have to though? UFH piping is in contact with concrete floor, so peak temps must be limited, concrete is none too elastic after all. But wood is. And here most of the pipe doesnt touch the studs, so 80C water would give a ballpark about 10C stud temp rise over most of the studs. Where the pipe goes thru the studs near top and bottom, I'll cross my fingers and say it probably doesnt really matter if the last 2" of wood is unstable, as it'll result in close to no overall stud movement anyway. Reason I'm angling for a full temp circuit is cost and simplicity, if it is doable it would be much preferable. Don't necessarily use microbo I;d use normal 15mm plastic UFH pipe. You could use normal pipe clamps to hold it to the studs. I was thinking that left hanging loose it would have a lot more drillproofness, it'd just move out the way if drilled. Does it have to be supported over an 8' drop at low pressure? Or have the bottom circuit do the work until it gets really cold and needs the contribution of the top circuit as well. Not sure how to arrange that ubersimply though Another possiblity is to run hot in at the base and out at the top after its cooled down. ohhh, yes Expansion isn't great with heat..its the likelihood of huge summer to winter humidity variations that bothers me. I hve a wall fill of pipes and it has shrunk hugely since construction, and it moves summer to winter..but it seems to be stabilising. I suppose 2 strips of wood glued together would make a more stable upright, arranging the growth rings in opposing directions to counter warping, like pineboard does. Thats quite doable. Add a few screws to back up the glue. Some. I think the key thing is to work out the real temperature you need and then keep the water as low as temp as you can get away with. And I guess an easy way to set that is to turn down the LSV until it just gives enough heat on the coldest day. Limited flow rate in the pipe will cap the temp for all but the first bit. Microbore itself would limit flow of course. Expect at best 100W/sq meter. Have you got the figures behind that? It wouldnt cause discomfort the way over-warm UFH does. You lose the option to control the individual rooms. Partly, yes. Theres no easy way to balance the 2 rooms as there is with separate LSVs if you only use the wall rad. What I had in mind was to use it with a room that would have say 2 rads, and instead we have the heated wall plus one rad in each room. Now the wall contributes a lot of the heat, and the individual rads are used for balancing. It does of course mean you cant switch one room off and have the other on - well you could hang curtains on it, but you cant do that in any easy neat way. How much of an issue I guess depends on the house and use patterns. It wouldn't be a probem for the app I have in mind. I guess the main remaining q in my mind now is whether we can get away with full temp circulating water. I suspect so. NT |
#21
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Look, no rads
If the wall rad were used as the only room heat, ie no conventional
radiators, it could be made as a 2 zone wall by wedging polystyrene sheet in the middle of the wall and having 2 pipe circuits, one each side. That could open up the range of apps a fair bit. NT |
#22
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Look, no rads
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#23
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Look, no rads
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#24
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Look, no rads
On 6 Feb, 21:26, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
wrote: I think the air in there will get very hot..50C or more..and very hot air is very dry air. Rough calcs indicated 25C outer skin temp, and something like 5C drop across the PB, that takes us to 30C on the PB inner surface. Air inside will need to be above that, by how much I dont know, but given the figures so far I wouldnt expect to see 50. But I dont actually know. 30-40 is still dry air though, as the air slowly exchanges with room air there will be a net migration of water vapour out of the structure, so I guess we can expect movement regardless of where the pipes are placed, and whether one uses 45C water or 80. So steel uprights it is. I have already see this in one wall with a lot of pipework going through it..the wall moves +-1 a mm or so summer to winter. And that has but a few insulated flow and return pipes coming from the boiler. right. Does it have to be supported over an 8' drop at low pressure? Probably not really.. Latest thinking is now to use 4' loops. Inlet pipe goes across the bottom of the wall, looping up 4' in each cavity, then goes back across the top. Helps the bottom be hotter than the top. I guess the upgoing bottom loops would be suspended with wire, thus maintaining its ability to move out the way easily if drilled. I guess the main remaining q in my mind now is whether we can get away with full temp circulating water. I suspect so. For the cost of a temp reducing valve I wouldn't risk it. You might experiment with reduced flow and lag the inlet parts of the pipes.. Another way to balance heat output across the wall is to use smaller pipe loops at the hot inlet end. At the far wall end we might have 4' loops, reducing to perhaps 2' loops at the inlet end. And really I'm not sure if we need any loops along the top. The hot bottom zone will create convection within the wall, so it might make more sense to have 2 bottom loops than one bottom one top. If we use steel stud, roughly balancing heat output should be all thats needed, no need to limit water temp for the wood's sake. It wont destroy the house structure, but it will bugger up the decoration. Yeah. I think it has to be steel. And that temp limiting the water wouldnt really achieve much. But I'm saying all this without having tried it. NT |
#26
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Look, no rads
wrote in message oups.com... Can one heat a stud wall and use it instead of a radiator? If instead of a rad of 8 sqft we warm an 80 sqft internal stud wall, the wall surface temp rise only need be around 1/10th that of the rad. So instead of 50C above 20 it would need to be around 5C above 20, or 25C. This is a non-problematic wall surface temperature. Presumably the heating would be carried out by microbore with ali fins inside the wall. Is it workable? Panels are available to go the walls, as are ceiling panels too. With a stud wall the space between the stud can have a grill at the bottom and one at the top with at the bottom just above the grill, finned copper pipe. Natural convection will circulate heat and the walls will get warm too. Simple cheap and easy, and no rads. |
#27
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Look, no rads
"Tony Bryer" wrote in message ... On 5 Feb 2007 03:07:10 -0800 wrote : Can one heat a stud wall and use it instead of a radiator? If instead of a rad of 8 sqft we warm an 80 sqft internal stud wall, the wall surface temp rise only need be around 1/10th that of the rad. So instead of 50C above 20 it would need to be around 5C above 20, or 25C. This is a non-problematic wall surface temperature. This is what lies behind underfloor heating, large area, low temperature (and thus ideally suited to condensing boilers or heat pumps). Underfloor heating, though, puts the heat into the room at the most desirable place, low down. The other problem with your idea is that you're presumably putting a sheet of plasterboard in front of the heat source which will seriously impact the heat flow. Evenly heat all the walls and the Mean Radiant Temperature (MRT) rises. Most heat from UFH is convection. |
#28
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Look, no rads
wrote in message oups.com... Can one heat a stud wall and use it instead of a radiator? If instead of a rad of 8 sqft we warm an 80 sqft internal stud wall, the wall surface temp rise only need be around 1/10th that of the rad. So instead of 50C above 20 it would need to be around 5C above 20, or 25C. This is a non-problematic wall surface temperature. Presumably the heating would be carried out by microbore with ali fins inside the wall. Is it workable? I have seen extensions that end up with cavity wall between the extension and the main house have plastic pipes run in them and filled with sand. Insulation was at the bottom and side to prevent heat loss Worked well. And nice warm wall. |
#29
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Look, no rads
wrote in message ... On 5 Feb, "adder1969" wrote: On Feb 5, 11:07 am, wrote: Can one heat a stud wall and use it instead of a radiator? If instead of a rad of 8 sqft we warm an 80 sqft internal stud wall, the wall surface temp rise only need be around 1/10th that of the rad. So instead of 50C above 20 it would need to be around 5C above 20, or 25C. This is a non-problematic wall surface temperature. Presumably the heating would be carried out by microbore with ali fins inside the wall. Is it workable? NT You be using air to move the heat from the pipe to the wall which I don't think is all that efficient but what else you'd use I'm not sure. I've wondered about using a stud wall. It should be no different to UFH, spreader plates could be used, or sand/ dry mix used as a heat transfer/storage medium. Has anyone tried it? Many have in eco houses. One way is have two sheet of steel with plastic pipe between. Inside and out the sandwich have a sand/cement mix. Anyone drilling into the wall will hit the steel. Steel plate is not expensive. Simple to do in renovation or new build. |
#30
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Look, no rads
On 8 Feb, 13:56, "Doctor Drivel" wrote:
wrote in message oups.com... Can one heat a stud wall and use it instead of a radiator? Panels are available to go the walls, as are ceiling panels too. Sure, but I dont want those. With a stud wall the space between the stud can have a grill at the bottom and one at the top with at the bottom just above the grill, finned copper pipe. Natural convection will circulate heat and the walls will get warm too. Simple cheap and easy, and no rads. Yes it works, but clogs up with dirty fluff in time, and the vents dont look good. What I'm trying to create is something effective, seamless & cheap. NT |
#31
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Look, no rads
"Cicero" wrote in message news Skirting radiators ('Finrad') used 22mm pipes with 3" square aluminium foil fins spaced about 1" apart. You might be able to find some of these but in any case I think 22mm would be far better than 8 /10mm microbore even without fins. Nope. A number of 8mm pipes is better than one 22mm pipe. Much better surface air contact and hot water surface contact too. |
#32
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Look, no rads
wrote in message ps.com... On 8 Feb, 13:56, "Doctor Drivel" wrote: wrote in message oups.com... Can one heat a stud wall and use it instead of a radiator? Panels are available to go the walls, as are ceiling panels too. Sure, but I dont want those. With a stud wall the space between the stud can have a grill at the bottom and one at the top with at the bottom just above the grill, finned copper pipe. Natural convection will circulate heat and the walls will get warm too. Simple cheap and easy, and no rads. Yes it works, but clogs up with dirty fluff in time, and the vents dont look good. What I'm trying to create is something effective, seamless & cheap. Stud wall? Foam insulation at the back and to the sides of the stud. MDF inset the same dia of the pipes from the front studs edge. Attach pipes. silicon seal between studs and MDF. Over the lot fix Fermacell pre finished board. High density, so higher mass. The pipes behind touch and heat the Fermacell. See Fermacell makers. |
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