I need to hang something from a single point on a ceiling. The load will
be about 300Kg max, after allowing a suitable safety factor (actual load
closer to 100Kg).

Any ideas or caveats?

I meant to look for a joist tonight in an out of the way location
(probably a cupboard), make a hole in the ceiling there & have a prod
about, as I'm not sure how much variation there is in possible
structure, but the battery's flat in my stud detector, so that'll have
to wait until tomorrow.

FWIW This concerns a flat in the middle storey of a small three storey
block, which was built in the 1970s. I won't have access to the floor
above, as that's obviously someone else's flat.

--
Peter Purr

Peter Purr wrote:
I need to hang something from a single point on a ceiling. The load
will be about 300Kg max, after allowing a suitable safety factor
(actual load closer to 100Kg).

Any ideas or caveats?

Yes, forget it!

I meant to look for a joist tonight in an out of the way location
(probably a cupboard), make a hole in the ceiling there & have a prod
about, as I'm not sure how much variation there is in possible
structure, but the battery's flat in my stud detector, so that'll have
to wait until tomorrow.

FWIW This concerns a flat in the middle storey of a small three storey
block, which was built in the 1970s. I won't have access to the floor
above, as that's obviously someone else's flat.

You can't do it without using steel, and to do that you'd have to do it from
above, even then it's not reccomended....the load would have to be spread
over 3 or 4 joists, you'd have to place a steel plate on top of the joists
(chisel the tops of the joists out to accomodate the steel plate under the
floorboards) and bolt a long threaded bar down to hang your 'whatever'
on...the nut would have to be below the level of the floorboards too.

What are you going to hang from a ceiling that weighs 200lb+?

What are you going to hang from a ceiling that weighs 200lb+?

My money's on a sex swing...

Colin Wilson wrote:
What are you going to hang from a ceiling that weighs 200lb+?

My money's on a sex swing...

Mines on a sandfilled punch bag.

--
Sir Benjamin Middlethwaite

The3rd Earl Of Derby wrote:
Colin Wilson wrote:
What are you going to hang from a ceiling that weighs 200lb+?
My money's on a sex swing...

Mines on a sandfilled punch bag.

Hmm, if you had a liking for snuff you could combine the two, but even
I'm not that sick. It's an armchair - though I don't know if that's the
right term as it doesn't really have arms. As to sex, not sure, though I
imagine the swinging is the reason for a safety factor of three.

So does everyone so far agree with Phil, that it can't be done?

How about going at this from the other direction? What loads can safely
be suspended from ceiling joists for various fixing methods?

--
Peter Purr

Peter Purr wrote:
The3rd Earl Of Derby wrote:
Colin Wilson wrote:
What are you going to hang from a ceiling that weighs 200lb+?
My money's on a sex swing...

Mines on a sandfilled punch bag.

Hmm, if you had a liking for snuff you could combine the two, but even
I'm not that sick. It's an armchair - though I don't know if that's the
right term as it doesn't really have arms. As to sex, not sure, though I
imagine the swinging is the reason for a safety factor of three.

So does everyone so far agree with Phil, that it can't be done?

How about going at this from the other direction? What loads can safely
be suspended from ceiling joists for various fixing methods?


I don't think thats a huge problem.

You would have to hack the plasterboard etc out a bit, but a couple of
bolts through the beam will be plenty strong enough,

Its the beam deflection that worries me.

1/3 ton is not too bad on a 6x3 beam over a few feet...but it will sag.

"Phil L" wrote in message
.uk...
Peter Purr wrote:
I need to hang something from a single point on a ceiling. The load
will be about 300Kg max, after allowing a suitable safety factor
(actual load closer to 100Kg).

Any ideas or caveats?

Yes, forget it!

I meant to look for a joist tonight in an out of the way location
(probably a cupboard), make a hole in the ceiling there & have a prod
about, as I'm not sure how much variation there is in possible
structure, but the battery's flat in my stud detector, so that'll have
to wait until tomorrow.

FWIW This concerns a flat in the middle storey of a small three storey
block, which was built in the 1970s. I won't have access to the floor
above, as that's obviously someone else's flat.

You can't do it without using steel, and to do that you'd have to do it
from above, even then it's not reccomended....the load would have to be
spread over 3 or 4 joists, you'd have to place a steel plate on top of the
joists (chisel the tops of the joists out to accomodate the steel plate
under the floorboards) and bolt a long threaded bar down to hang your
'whatever' on...the nut would have to be below the level of the
floorboards too.

What are you going to hang from a ceiling that weighs 200lb+?

something from anne summers or clone zone!
very odd.

Brian wrote:
"Phil L" wrote in message

What are you going to hang from a ceiling that weighs 200lb+?

something from anne summers or clone zone!
very odd.

I had to Google for clone zone. Oh dear, I think I'm spotting a pattern
in replies ;(

Can anyone offer informed comment on the problem itself?

--
Peter Purr

Peter Purr wrote:

I need to hang something from a single point on a ceiling. The load will
be about 300Kg max, after allowing a suitable safety factor (actual load
closer to 100Kg).

You are talking about a 1 to 3kN imposed point load which is quite a bit
- especially as you have no control over what load will be placed on top
of the ceiling (i.e. in the flat above).

Any ideas or caveats?

I expect it owuld be simpler to make up a steel frame/gantry that would
rest on your floor and carry the load.

I meant to look for a joist tonight in an out of the way location
(probably a cupboard), make a hole in the ceiling there & have a prod
about, as I'm not sure how much variation there is in possible
structure, but the battery's flat in my stud detector, so that'll have
to wait until tomorrow.

To make any stab at an answer we would need to know the joist width and
depth, the span, and where along the span you wanted the load fitted.
For example, close to a supporting wall at the end of a joist may be
doable. The middle of a room is unlikely to be easy.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

John Rumm wrote:
Peter Purr wrote:

I need to hang something from a single point on a ceiling. The load
will be about 300Kg max, after allowing a suitable safety factor
(actual load closer to 100Kg).

You are talking about a 1 to 3kN imposed point load which is quite a bit
- especially as you have no control over what load will be placed on top
of the ceiling (i.e. in the flat above).

Any ideas or caveats?

I expect it owuld be simpler to make up a steel frame/gantry that would
rest on your floor and carry the load.

I'm keeping that in mind as a last resort, but without some pretty
creative design it could look hideous which SWMBO wouldn't wear & in any
case she's the one who wanted the fecking thing - I just get to make it
happen.

I meant to look for a joist tonight in an out of the way location
(probably a cupboard), make a hole in the ceiling there & have a prod
about, as I'm not sure how much variation there is in possible
structure, but the battery's flat in my stud detector, so that'll have
to wait until tomorrow.

To make any stab at an answer we would need to know the joist width and
depth, the span, and where along the span you wanted the load fitted.

That's what I expected. I'll try to get this info tomorrow if I have
time & get to prod about.

For example, close to a supporting wall at the end of a joist may be
doable. The middle of a room is unlikely to be easy.

Understood. No figures yet, but it wouldn't be at an end - probably four
to six feet away. Also, one of the walls is internal - it has the boiler
behind it - not that I know if that's likely to correlate with a
supporting wall or not; I'll have to check that out too. Thanks for the
comments.

--
Peter Purr

FWIW This concerns a flat in the middle storey of a small three storey
block, which was built in the 1970s. I won't have access to the floor
above, as that's obviously someone else's flat.

I would expect a 1970's flat to have decent fire protection between
flats/floors - more than plasterboard/joists/floorboards. Are you sure
there isn't concrete in there somewhere?

wrote:
FWIW This concerns a flat in the middle storey of a small three storey
block, which was built in the 1970s. I won't have access to the floor
above, as that's obviously someone else's flat.

I would expect a 1970's flat to have decent fire protection between
flats/floors - more than plasterboard/joists/floorboards. Are you sure
there isn't concrete in there somewhere?

I think there is, going by our floor - some sort of bakelite type tile
over at least an inch of concrete - hence my original comment about
needing to check out the nature of the structure between levels.

I'll do that tonight or Saturday, depending on how much light is left
when I get back home.

--
Peter Purr

It's either cast in situ concrete (a lot more than an inch) or
prefabricated concrete floor beams (don't know if that was used in the
1970's) also a lot more than an inch. If so, any wooden ceiling joists
are only designed to hang plasterboard from - not chairs/people.


I would expect a 1970's flat to have decent fire protection between
flats/floors - more than plasterboard/joists/floorboards. Are you sure
there isn't concrete in there somewhere?

I think there is, going by our floor - some sort of bakelite type tile
over at least an inch of concrete - hence my original comment about
needing to check out the nature of the structure between levels.

wrote:
It's either cast in situ concrete (a lot more than an inch) or
prefabricated concrete floor beams (don't know if that was used in the
1970's) also a lot more than an inch. If so, any wooden ceiling joists
are only designed to hang plasterboard from - not chairs/people.

It looks to be concrete, as I describe in another post.

--
Peter Purr

"Peter Purr" wrote:
I need to hang something from a single point on a ceiling. The load will be
about 300Kg max, after allowing a suitable safety factor (actual load
closer to 100Kg).

Any ideas or caveats?

I meant to look for a joist tonight in an out of the way location
(probably a cupboard), make a hole in the ceiling there & have a prod
about, as I'm not sure how much variation there is in possible structure,
but the battery's flat in my stud detector, so that'll have to wait until
tomorrow.

FWIW This concerns a flat in the middle storey of a small three storey
block, which was built in the 1970s. I won't have access to the floor
above, as that's obviously someone else's flat.

--
Peter Purr

Might be worth checking with your insurance company whether you are covered
should you go ahead and cause structural damage to the building. Your policy
may not cover diy disasters.

Might be worth checking with your insurance company whether you are covered
should you go ahead and cause structural damage to the building. Your policy
may not cover diy disasters.

And checking the terms of the lease

dcbwhaley wrote:
Might be worth checking with your insurance company whether you are covered
should you go ahead and cause structural damage to the building. Your policy
may not cover diy disasters.

And checking the terms of the lease

I'd not thought of that :/

Agreed.

--
Peter Purr

dcbwhaley wrote:
Might be worth checking with your insurance company whether you are covered
should you go ahead and cause structural damage to the building. Your policy
may not cover diy disasters.

And checking the terms of the lease

That's probably the most important thing. In general the lease is likely
to regard the space between one man's ceiling and another man's floor as
"common parts"; you will have rights to run services in the space but
anything else will require agreement from landlord/head leaseholder.


--
djc

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Peter Purr wrote:

I need to hang something from a single point on a ceiling. The load
will be about 300Kg max, after allowing a suitable safety factor
(actual load closer to 100Kg).

Any ideas or caveats?

I meant to look for a joist tonight in an out of the way location
(probably a cupboard), make a hole in the ceiling there & have a prod
about, as I'm not sure how much variation there is in possible
structure, but the battery's flat in my stud detector, so that'll have
to wait until tomorrow.

FWIW This concerns a flat in the middle storey of a small three storey
block, which was built in the 1970s. I won't have access to the floor
above, as that's obviously someone else's flat.


All but one of the replies so far have assumed that you have a wooden
structure - but it's worth checking whether this is *actually* the case. If
the building was purpose built as flats - as opposed to built as a house and
subsequently converted into flats - there's at least a chance that there's
concrete between the floors. Does your flat have a wooden floor, or is it
solid? If solid, then the one above will also be solid - in which case you
should be able - with suitable fixings - to screw an eye bolt into it from
which to hang your chair.

If the structure is wooden, you'll need to spread the load over several
joists. A large steel plate, attached to several joists with 100mm long 10mm
diameter carriage screws would probably do the job. Or if you don't mind
taking the ceiling down, you could bolt some hangers through the centreline
of several joists, and then bolt your plate to the hangers.
--
Cheers,
Roger
______
Email address maintained for newsgroup use only, and not regularly
monitored.. Messages sent to it may not be read for several weeks.
PLEASE REPLY TO NEWSGROUP!

"Roger Mills" wrote:
All but one of the replies so far have assumed that you have a wooden
structure - but it's worth checking whether this is *actually* the case.
If the building was purpose built as flats - as opposed to built as a
house and subsequently converted into flats - there's at least a chance
that there's concrete between the floors. Does your flat have a wooden
floor, or is it solid? If solid, then the one above will also be solid -
in which case you should be able - with suitable fixings - to screw an eye
bolt into it from which to hang your chair.

If the structure is wooden, you'll need to spread the load over several
joists. A large steel plate, attached to several joists with 100mm long
10mm diameter carriage screws would probably do the job. Or if you don't
mind taking the ceiling down, you could bolt some hangers through the
centreline of several joists, and then bolt your plate to the hangers.
--
Cheers,
Roger
______
Email address maintained for newsgroup use only, and not regularly
monitored.. Messages sent to it may not be read for several weeks.
PLEASE REPLY TO NEWSGROUP!

It crossed my mind that it could be a concrete construction. If so, would
the presence of steel reinforcing rods need to be considered if drilling
into the ceiling to fix an eye bolt? SWMBO may not have thought this
through.

Codswallop wrote:

It crossed my mind that it could be a concrete construction. If so, would
the presence of steel reinforcing rods need to be considered if drilling
into the ceiling to fix an eye bolt? SWMBO may not have thought this
through.

Her idiot servant might not have either

--
Peter Purr

Roger Mills wrote:

All but one of the replies so far have assumed that you have a wooden
structure - but it's worth checking whether this is *actually* the
case.

Agreed. I'm not sure atm.

If the building was purpose built as flats

It was.

- as opposed to built as a house and subsequently converted into
flats - there's at least a chance that there's concrete between the
floors. Does your flat have a wooden floor, or is it solid?

It's not wood - some kind of plastic tile over at least a layer of
concrete, but it sounds hollow to me, so I figured it probably wasn't
solid enough to fix to directly.

If solid, then the one above will also be solid - in which case you
should be able - with suitable fixings - to screw an eye bolt into it
from which to hang your chair.

If the structure is wooden, you'll need to spread the load over
several joists. A large steel plate, attached to several joists with
100mm long 10mm diameter carriage screws would probably do the job.
Or if you don't mind taking the ceiling down, you could bolt some
hangers through the centreline of several joists, and then bolt your
plate to the hangers.

Thanks, that's close to what I might have tried, so it's good to hear
someone suggest it isn't obviously insane

I'll get a chance to investigate the structure soon - will probably have
to pull down a small chunk of ceiling in a cupboard area.

Thanks again,

--
Peter Purr

On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 11:13:01 +0000 Peter Purr wrote :
It's not wood - some kind of plastic tile over at least a layer of
concrete, but it sounds hollow to me, so I figured it probably wasn't
solid enough to fix to directly.

Quite a lot of flats of that age have concrete plank floors of some
type and the ceiling below is plasterboard on battens.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk

Tony Bryer wrote:
On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 11:13:01 +0000 Peter Purr wrote :
It's not wood - some kind of plastic tile over at least a layer of
concrete, but it sounds hollow to me, so I figured it probably wasn't
solid enough to fix to directly.

Quite a lot of flats of that age have concrete plank floors of some
type and the ceiling below is plasterboard on battens.

Why don't you sneak into the flat above when they are away and install a
large bolt from there? :-)


--
Dave
The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257

The Medway Handyman wrote:

Why don't you sneak into the flat above when they are away and install a
large bolt from there? :-)

I think I'll pass on that suggestion, but thanks for, um, trying

--
Peter Purr

Tony Bryer wrote:
On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 11:13:01 +0000 Peter Purr wrote :
It's not wood - some kind of plastic tile over at least a layer of
concrete, but it sounds hollow to me, so I figured it probably wasn't
solid enough to fix to directly.

Quite a lot of flats of that age have concrete plank floors of some
type and the ceiling below is plasterboard on battens.

It does seem to be either solid concrete or concrete planks.

--
Peter Purr

Roger Mills wrote:

All but one of the replies so far have assumed that you have a wooden
structure - but it's worth checking whether this is *actually* the
case. If the building was purpose built as flats - as opposed to
built as a house and subsequently converted into flats - there's at
least a chance that there's concrete between the floors. Does your
flat have a wooden floor, or is it solid?

I don't know how I could have been so unobservant to have not noticed
before, but...

The floor seems to be some sort of brittle plastic (not tiles - I
imagine it was poured over the concrete & set in situ), around
5mm thick, on top of concrete. In one area some pipework was fitted in
poorly chased channels which indicates the concrete layer is well over
four inches deep - so I now assume the whole flooring is of concrete
construction.

Further, going into a cupboard to pull down a chunk of ceiling, I
discover that cupboard has no such ceiling. Instead it appears to be
solid concrete & sits nearly 2.5" higher than the plasterboard ceiling
in the adjacent room - so I assume our main ceiling is indeed
plasterboard on battens, themselves perhaps 1.5" deep, fixed directly to
the concrete.

What sort of thickness is the concrete likely to have?

If solid, then the one above will also be solid - in which case you
should be able - with suitable fixings - to screw an eye bolt into it
from which to hang your chair.

Then I ought to be able to remove a small section of plasterboard & fix
an eye bolt into the concrete?

Can you suggest a suitable diameter & length to give a secure fixing -
I've never had to fix anything this substantial into brick or concrete
or where the fixing is vertical & vertically loaded?

How should the bolt be secured into the concrete?

googles

Something like this: http://www.rockite.com/ ?

A quick setting expanding cement.

Any idea where I'd get a small quantity of that or something similar? Is
it the kind of thing one can pick up in a diy store? I don't have
transport & our only local option is a couple of B&Qs.

Thanks again to everyone for all the helpful replies.

--
Peter Purr

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Peter Purr wrote:


How should the bolt be secured into the concrete?

googles

Something like this: http://www.rockite.com/ ?

A quick setting expanding cement.


No - something like this http://tinyurl.com/yefofb - no cement needed.

You drill the hole and push it in, and then rotate the end. This pulls the
wedge-shaped nut into the tube and expands it - making a firm fixing in the
hole. The one shown has a hook on the end, but you can also get them with an
eye instead. They come in various sizes.
--
Cheers,
Roger
______
Email address maintained for newsgroup use only, and not regularly
monitored.. Messages sent to it may not be read for several weeks.
PLEASE REPLY TO NEWSGROUP!

Roger Mills wrote:
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Peter Purr wrote:

How should the bolt be secured into the concrete?

googles

Something like this: http://www.rockite.com/ ?

A quick setting expanding cement.


No - something like this http://tinyurl.com/yefofb - no cement needed.

You drill the hole and push it in, and then rotate the end. This pulls the
wedge-shaped nut into the tube and expands it - making a firm fixing in the
hole. The one shown has a hook on the end, but you can also get them with an
eye instead. They come in various sizes.

Any idea where I'd find info on what loading they can take? I know a web
page of stats could be false, but I'd still find it reassuring

BTW thanks.

--
Peter Purr

Peter Purr wrote:
I need to hang something from a single point on a ceiling. The load
will be about 300Kg max, after allowing a suitable safety factor
(actual load closer to 100Kg).

Any ideas or caveats?

Is said chair designed to be hung from the ceiling in the first place? If
so, I'm sure the manufacturers would have done the calculations before they
started to sell it. Too risky to do otherwise? Could you contact them.


--
Dave
The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257

The Medway Handyman wrote:
Peter Purr wrote:
I need to hang something from a single point on a ceiling. The load
will be about 300Kg max, after allowing a suitable safety factor
(actual load closer to 100Kg).

Any ideas or caveats?

Is said chair designed to be hung from the ceiling in the first place? If
so, I'm sure the manufacturers would have done the calculations before they
started to sell it. Too risky to do otherwise? Could you contact them.

There's the usual sort of vague warning about using the right fixings. I
haven't attempted to contact the manufacturer though.

--
Peter Purr