Jules wrote:
On Fri, 03 Nov 2006 12:52:11 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Next generation hybrids will solely use the electrics for propulsion,
and simply have a battery charger on the motor..but even that still does
almost nothing to reduce the CO2 emissions.

The real answer is electric cars, Lithium batteries and nuclear power.

Have there been any comments on what the next generation of batteries will
be like for car use? IIRC they're liquid (and hence refillable), but I've
only seen them mentioned in the context of powering consumer gadgets
(which may well need a reasonable current, but don't even come close to
what a car must require).

Lithium polymer of some sort, optimized for high power density and cycle
life. What's in yer mobile phone right now, but much much bigger.

Currently certainly suitable technically (google Tzero) but horribly
expensive. Expect the far east to have the technology before the west -
Japan has a huge energy import problem.


As well as simply NOT DRIVING.

Not needing to drive, you mean :-)

In uk.d-i-y The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Jules wrote:
On Fri, 03 Nov 2006 12:52:11 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Next generation hybrids will solely use the electrics for propulsion,
and simply have a battery charger on the motor..but even that still does
almost nothing to reduce the CO2 emissions.

The real answer is electric cars, Lithium batteries and nuclear power.

Have there been any comments on what the next generation of batteries will
be like for car use? IIRC they're liquid (and hence refillable), but I've
only seen them mentioned in the context of powering consumer gadgets
(which may well need a reasonable current, but don't even come close to
what a car must require).

Lithium polymer of some sort, optimized for high power density and cycle
life. What's in yer mobile phone right now, but much much bigger.

Lithium cells (18650s) are around the 3 quid per each, for large
quantities of 2000mAh 3.7V.
This is about 2Wh/pound.

Some basic numbers for my Nissan Micra - replacing the fuel tank
and about half the engine bay with batteries - for 80l in total.
This came to around 5000 cells - 15000 quiddish.
The Micra gets around 40MPG normally.
Assuming this is 25% efficient, that's 160MPG.
Or about 58M/Kg of petrol.
Or 93Km/Kg.
Or 93Km/44MJ.
Or 473KJ/Km.

Or around 19 cells per kilometer.
Call it 25 as the motor will not be perfectly efficient.
Or a range of 200Km, a little over a third of the petrol range.
This would actually be quite adequate for 99.9% of journeys I do in it.

If we assume that the cell costs the maker 1.50 each to produce, and all
of that is comprised of electricity costs - which is the optimistic
case, that's about 20Kwh, it breaks even - for the cells alone at cycle
3000 or so.
However, by that time the cells will be utterly useless.

Ian Stirling wrote:
In uk.d-i-y The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Jules wrote:
On Fri, 03 Nov 2006 12:52:11 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Next generation hybrids will solely use the electrics for propulsion,
and simply have a battery charger on the motor..but even that still does
almost nothing to reduce the CO2 emissions.

The real answer is electric cars, Lithium batteries and nuclear power.
Have there been any comments on what the next generation of batteries will
be like for car use? IIRC they're liquid (and hence refillable), but I've
only seen them mentioned in the context of powering consumer gadgets
(which may well need a reasonable current, but don't even come close to
what a car must require).
Lithium polymer of some sort, optimized for high power density and cycle
life. What's in yer mobile phone right now, but much much bigger.

Lithium cells (18650s) are around the 3 quid per each, for large
quantities of 2000mAh 3.7V.
This is about 2Wh/pound.

Some basic numbers for my Nissan Micra - replacing the fuel tank
and about half the engine bay with batteries - for 80l in total.
This came to around 5000 cells - 15000 quiddish.
The Micra gets around 40MPG normally.
Assuming this is 25% efficient, that's 160MPG.
Or about 58M/Kg of petrol.
Or 93Km/Kg.
Or 93Km/44MJ.
Or 473KJ/Km.

Or around 19 cells per kilometer.
Call it 25 as the motor will not be perfectly efficient.
Or a range of 200Km, a little over a third of the petrol range.
This would actually be quite adequate for 99.9% of journeys I do in it.

If we assume that the cell costs the maker 1.50 each to produce, and all
of that is comprised of electricity costs - which is the optimistic
case, that's about 20Kwh, it breaks even - for the cells alone at cycle
3000 or so.
However, by that time the cells will be utterly useless.


Exactly. Right now its uneconomic on a cost basis, and although it
matches carbon emissions of a good diesel, doesn't beat them unless run
off nuclear or other non fossil generated electric.

I got about 200 mile range on 50-75KWh with regenerative braking in my
back of envelope calcs. And about $50,000 for cells.

I did reckon that 500 cycles would net you 100k miles though, and that
the cells SHOULD do that. So although at first cell replacement would be
a significant cost, eventually I felt that 'lifetime' batteries were not
inconcievable.

Using a motor on each wheel, and a lot of electronics, I reckoned that
the overall car would be mechanically far simpler, and match an IC car
weight for weight. When you lose the engine on an IC car you lose a lot
of other stuff as well - tank, loads of pumps and belts, cooling
stuff..gearbox and linkages, drive shafts...differentials etc..clutch.
All gone.Apart from a fan to cool the batteries and electronics, all you
have left conceptually is a huge battery under the floor, a box of
electronics somewhere, and 4 motors - one on each wheel. Ok a few things
like heaters and aircon and wipers, and the usual mass of cables to open
windows and turn on lights etc.

Maintenance was minimal. Probably SOME brake pads somewhere, washer
fluid and tyres, and possibly the odd substandard cell would need
replacing. Apart from that all bearings sealed for life, brushless
motors means no brushes to go..

Would be an extremely low maintenance thing.

And if charged up every night, or in fact left permanently on trickle
charge, would always have enough cheap juice in it for a couple of
hundred miles. No warm up time - the motors would be better at low
temps, although the batteries are in general a bit worse.

On Sat, 04 Nov 2006 09:57:45 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Jules wrote:
On Fri, 03 Nov 2006 12:52:11 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Next generation hybrids will solely use the electrics for propulsion,
and simply have a battery charger on the motor..but even that still does
almost nothing to reduce the CO2 emissions.

The real answer is electric cars, Lithium batteries and nuclear power.

Have there been any comments on what the next generation of batteries will
be like for car use? IIRC they're liquid (and hence refillable), but I've
only seen them mentioned in the context of powering consumer gadgets
(which may well need a reasonable current, but don't even come close to
what a car must require).

Lithium polymer of some sort, optimized for high power density and cycle
life. What's in yer mobile phone right now, but much much bigger.

Hmmm, the thing I read about was definitely a liquid, though - it could be
recharged, but as with all batteries suffered from gradual loss of
efficiency. Of course (as with a conventional car battery) you could dump
the ontents out at this point and re-fill it.

I've got a feeling it was something alcohol-based, but could be wrong.
Gave a lot more lifetime between charges than a laptop battery for the
same power output. I think it was supposed ot be a couple of years away
from being production-ready though (and the article I saw didn't explain
what any of the current problems with the technology were).

Whether it scales to 'heavy' use such as in a car, I don't know.

In uk.d-i-y Jules wrote:
On Sat, 04 Nov 2006 09:57:45 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Jules wrote:
On Fri, 03 Nov 2006 12:52:11 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Next generation hybrids will solely use the electrics for propulsion,
and simply have a battery charger on the motor..but even that still does
almost nothing to reduce the CO2 emissions.

The real answer is electric cars, Lithium batteries and nuclear power.

Have there been any comments on what the next generation of batteries will
be like for car use? IIRC they're liquid (and hence refillable), but I've
only seen them mentioned in the context of powering consumer gadgets
(which may well need a reasonable current, but don't even come close to
what a car must require).

Lithium polymer of some sort, optimized for high power density and cycle
life. What's in yer mobile phone right now, but much much bigger.

Hmmm, the thing I read about was definitely a liquid, though - it could be
recharged, but as with all batteries suffered from gradual loss of
efficiency. Of course (as with a conventional car battery) you could dump
the ontents out at this point and re-fill it.

I think you may be thinking of (IIRC) an aluminium-air cell.
It's not rechargable, but can have the contents trivially replaced.