The UK power companies are now installing digital electricity meters in
all homes .


These meters read in KVA hours and not kilo watt hours like the old
analogue ones used to do .

Means you guys out there with machines with electric motors and ...
transformers, inductive devices ,strip lights will now be charged up to
5 times more for using your power....the new digital meters now read
that way.

I'm not happy

I phoned up Ampy the maker of this meter.

And they say it DOES NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT POWER FACTOR
it reads only in kva hours.

MODEL NUMBER

5235A


British gas my energy provider, say they will not change the meter.

BRITISH GAS SAY THAT EVERYONE WILL HAVE ONE OF THESE METERS INSTALLED
WITHIN THE NEXT FEW YEARS

They also say that "ALL" other electricity providers are going down the
same route

So therefor you're all going to be in the same boat as me .

IE your overall electricity bills will shoot up 75 percent if you use
your machinery in your workshop for a couple of hours a day...domestic


Example I used to use about three units on the old ANALOGUE meter for
....for a couple of hours work in the workshop

This new fangled digital meter now reads 11 units of the same time
period ..
the new meter isn't faulty ...this guys is the future

I URGE EVERYONE HERE ...WHO HAS ONE OF THESE DIGITAL METERS FITTED TO
GET IN TOUCH WITH

ENERGY WATCH

http://www.energywatch.org.uk/

PHONE

08459 060708


They wont have a clue what you are talking about ...but the more people
phone this number ...the more this fraud will sink in with them.


All the best...mark

"mark" writes:

The UK power companies are now installing digital electricity meters in
all homes .


These meters read in KVA hours and not kilo watt hours like the old
analogue ones used to do .

Then again to some, but only some, extent it is fairer as
non-resistive loads do in fact cause power to be wasted in
transmission even if not used onsite. And some kit makes nasty
harmonics which make other customers' transformers/motors less
efficient.

However if you were to attach a capacitor and your neighbour on the
same phase an inductor of the same reactance then you would both be
charged under the new scheme though the nett effect on the grid would
be (ideally) zero.

In the other case your area just has let's say computers with kind of
capacitive-ish loading* and no power factor correction. Now you're
paying for the damage to the otherwise clean sine wave.

Or you have inductive loads and are causing more loss in the lines
than you are paying for. Now things are fairer under the new scheme.

This is (partly) why new legislation requires power factor correction
though one could spend a career arguing about the requirements for a
particular applicance.

Jon

* Switch mode power supplies start with a full wave rectifier and
large capacitor which just might have some power factor stuff in the
way.

mark wrote:

These meters read in KVA hours and not kilo watt hours like the old
analogue ones used to do .

I don't believe that for a moment.

Means you guys out there with machines with electric motors and ...
transformers, inductive devices ,strip lights will now be charged up to
5 times more for using your power....the new digital meters now read
that way.

Don't be silly - even if the meter did read kVAh, there very few loads
with power factors as low as 0.2.

I phoned up Ampy the maker of this meter.

And they say it DOES NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT POWER FACTOR
it reads only in kva hours.

MODEL NUMBER
5235A

I can only imagine that you spoke to someone that didn't understand the
question.

Metering is regulated by Ofgem and all meters used for billing have to
be certified to a standard (EN 61036). Domestic meters are Class 2
basic accuracy (i.e. ±2%). The accuracy might deteriorate slightly at
low power factor, but not anywhere near to the extent where it's
measuring kVAh rather than kWh.

Info on a typical modern meter he
http://www.econtrols.co.uk/kwh_single.htm

--
Andy

Andy Wade writes:

Info on a typical modern meter he
http://www.econtrols.co.uk/kwh_single.htm

shows one like mine.

The tech data does say it can optionally register KVAh on reactive
models so there could be some truth here.

Jon

mark wrote:
The UK power companies are now installing digital electricity meters
in all homes .


These meters read in KVA hours and not kilo watt hours like the old
analogue ones used to do .

Means you guys out there with machines with electric motors and ...
transformers, inductive devices ,strip lights will now be charged up
to 5 times more for using your power....the new digital meters now
read that way.

I'm not happy

I phoned up Ampy the maker of this meter.

And they say it DOES NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT POWER FACTOR
it reads only in kva hours.

MODEL NUMBER

5235A


British gas my energy provider, say they will not change the meter.

BRITISH GAS SAY THAT EVERYONE WILL HAVE ONE OF THESE METERS INSTALLED
WITHIN THE NEXT FEW YEARS

They also say that "ALL" other electricity providers are going down
the same route

So therefor you're all going to be in the same boat as me .

IE your overall electricity bills will shoot up 75 percent if you use
your machinery in your workshop for a couple of hours a day...domestic


Example I used to use about three units on the old ANALOGUE meter for
...for a couple of hours work in the workshop

This new fangled digital meter now reads 11 units of the same time
period ..
the new meter isn't faulty ...this guys is the future

I URGE EVERYONE HERE ...WHO HAS ONE OF THESE DIGITAL METERS FITTED TO
GET IN TOUCH WITH

ENERGY WATCH

http://www.energywatch.org.uk/

PHONE

08459 060708


They wont have a clue what you are talking about ...but the more
people phone this number ...the more this fraud will sink in with
them.


All the best...mark

Ampy dont make that model number this is the nearest?
http://www.ampymetering.com/uk/frame....htm~mainFrame

--
Sir Benjamin Middlethwaite

These are the facts Andy

Before, over 2 hour period ...I was using 2-3 units over a 1.5 hour to
2 hour session with my machines .

now am using 11 units over the same period

my bills are now £300 a quarter rather than 170 of previous.


all the best...mark

The3rd Earl Of Derby wrote:
mark wrote:
The UK power companies are now installing digital electricity meters
in all homes .


These meters read in KVA hours and not kilo watt hours like the old
analogue ones used to do .

Means you guys out there with machines with electric motors and ...
transformers, inductive devices ,strip lights will now be charged up
to 5 times more for using your power....the new digital meters now
read that way.

I'm not happy

I phoned up Ampy the maker of this meter.

And they say it DOES NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT POWER FACTOR
it reads only in kva hours.

MODEL NUMBER

5235A


British gas my energy provider, say they will not change the meter.

BRITISH GAS SAY THAT EVERYONE WILL HAVE ONE OF THESE METERS INSTALLED
WITHIN THE NEXT FEW YEARS

They also say that "ALL" other electricity providers are going down
the same route

So therefor you're all going to be in the same boat as me .

IE your overall electricity bills will shoot up 75 percent if you use
your machinery in your workshop for a couple of hours a day...domestic


Example I used to use about three units on the old ANALOGUE meter for
...for a couple of hours work in the workshop

This new fangled digital meter now reads 11 units of the same time
period ..
the new meter isn't faulty ...this guys is the future

I URGE EVERYONE HERE ...WHO HAS ONE OF THESE DIGITAL METERS FITTED TO
GET IN TOUCH WITH

ENERGY WATCH

http://www.energywatch.org.uk/

PHONE

08459 060708


They wont have a clue what you are talking about ...but the more
people phone this number ...the more this fraud will sink in with
them.


All the best...mark

Ampy dont make that model number this is the nearest?
http://www.ampymetering.com/uk/frame....htm~mainFrame

--
Sir Benjamin Middlethwaite

It's not there web site yet because its new ...that was ampy's
explaination .

all the best..mark

mark wrote:


Ampy dont make that model number this is the nearest?
http://www.ampymetering.com/uk/frame....htm~mainFrame

--
Sir Benjamin Middlethwaite

It's not there web site yet because its new ...that was ampy's
explaination .

all the best..mark

Well if this is the case? I would strongly object to having this meter
installed and insist on the conventional meter put back in otherwise hit
them with a phone call/Letter to say you're going to switch to another
suppliers tarrif.

--
Sir Benjamin Middlethwaite

Jonathan Schneider wrote:

The tech data does say it can optionally register KVAh on reactive
models so there could be some truth here.

Where does it say that? The downloadable user manual says that the
2-rate version can be configured to read kVARh (to class 3) as well as
kWh (to class 1). This will be for business tariffs where an additional
(penalty) charge is made for reactive consumption (kVARh). There's no
question of domestic consumers being billed in kVAh.

--
Andy

Andy Wade wrote:
Jonathan Schneider wrote:

The tech data does say it can optionally register KVAh on reactive
models so there could be some truth here.

Where does it say that? The downloadable user manual says that the
2-rate version can be configured to read kVARh (to class 3) as well as
kWh (to class 1). This will be for business tariffs where an additional
(penalty) charge is made for reactive consumption (kVARh). There's no
question of domestic consumers being billed in kVAh.

--
Andy

this is the conversation i had on the phone the other day with ampy's
tech department

"does model 5235a correct for power factor"
answer ..".No... it does not "


"why are the details of this model not on your web site" ..
answer ...it's too new ...we haven't had chance to list it there yet.


I then explained my situation to the techy ..

he said " looks like out meter is wrong for you, in your situation."

"we don't have a domestic meter for your situation .."


I SAID ...

"what am I to do then ...get them to install the old analogue back in
....

he said something along the lines of ... "yes ...I cant think of any
other way" ..

OK I said ...will get in touch with British gas and ask them to swap
the meter back ...


British gas refused to swap the meter back ...


and this is why I'm quite upset.


All the best..mark

mark wrote:

this is the conversation i had on the phone the other day with ampy's
tech department

"does model 5235a correct for power factor"
answer ..".No... it does not "

Hmm, that could be interpreted in more that one way. I'm still
incredulous, but as you clearly think there's a problem I suggest you
talk to Ofgem.

--
Andy

Andy Wade wrote:

Don't be silly - even if the meter did read kVAh, there very few loads
with power factors as low as 0.2.

Don't be silly. Every post asking for mass e-mailing of any site is a
criminal act amounting to a DDOS. Spread it not.

Weatherlawyer wrote:
Andy Wade wrote:

Don't be silly - even if the meter did read kVAh, there very few loads
with power factors as low as 0.2.

Don't be silly. Every post asking for mass e-mailing of any site is a
criminal act amounting to a DDOS. Spread it not.


Who said anything about mass emailing

The site i listed is the watchdog site for energy .

You guys are hard to convince when some literate character comes up
with figures here to disprove what i have said.

get reading your analogue units now ....and take notes of what amount
you are consuming in your workshops

and when you get them changed in the future for these digital units
and you end up with sky high bills don't come here complaining , when
its too late ...


all the best.....mark

Mark,

If as you say your bill is rocketing, can I suggest you invest in a
power meter, assuming of course your kit runs through a 13A plug so
that your problem can be quantified. After all just maybe your old
meter was broken and under-registering for years. Or just maybe the
new one id broken. Does it clock up at the right rate if you put a big
resistive load like your kettle or immersion on ?

I bought my meter from Maplin for £12.50 but that was a slightly
special price. I think they're normally more like £25. It does VA, A,
W, PF, Hz and accumulated kWh.

Jon

Jonathan Schneider wrote:
Mark,

If as you say your bill is rocketing, can I suggest you invest in a
power meter, assuming of course your kit runs through a 13A plug so
that your problem can be quantified. After all just maybe your old
meter was broken and under-registering for years. Or just maybe the
new one id broken. Does it clock up at the right rate if you put a big
resistive load like your kettle or immersion on ?

I bought my meter from Maplin for £12.50 but that was a slightly
special price. I think they're normally more like £25. It does VA, A,
W, PF, Hz and accumulated kWh.

Jon

No my phase converter for my tools is hard wired with 25 amp fuse .

had the mapplin gadget a few years back ...it packed up ...
after a week

sent it back ...they said they didn't receive it ...lost my money.

got compensated by the post office for £15 i think though at the time.


after lots of discussion today in the news groups and on forums on the
web ...
I'm coming to the conclusion ...that either

my old meter was reading low

or the new meter is reading high and faulty.

and it says on it kilowatt hours

so that info i got from the ampy tech guy was wrong.

will phone British gas tomorrow and ask for a test to be run on it .

all the best...mark

mark wrote:

get reading your analogue units now ....and take notes of what amount
you are consuming in your workshops

and when you get them changed in the future for these digital units [...]

Future...? "Digital" meters ("electronic" might be a better term) have
been common for years, round here at least. My Ampy 2-rate meter was
fitted in 1998 - it's so old it's got "Property of Eastern Electricity"
printed on it.

and you end up with sky high bills don't come here complaining , when
its too late ...

I recall no significant change in bills when it was fitted. Mind you
most of my workshop consumption is for the storage heaters, with a PF
very close to unity. The PF for the house must be lower - lots of CFLs
and computer equipment.

--
Andy

mark wrote:

You guys are hard to convince when some literate character comes up
with figures here to disprove what i have said.

get reading your analogue units now ....and take notes of what amount
you are consuming in your workshops

One of the difficulties we have is the "five times" claim. Even if the
meter was reading apparent power consumption, I can't imagine any set of
tools that would exhibit a power factor of 0.2 (which is what we are
talking about for a 5x over reading)



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In article ,
John Rumm writes:
mark wrote:

You guys are hard to convince when some literate character comes up
with figures here to disprove what i have said.

get reading your analogue units now ....and take notes of what amount
you are consuming in your workshops

One of the difficulties we have is the "five times" claim. Even if the
meter was reading apparent power consumption, I can't imagine any set of
tools that would exhibit a power factor of 0.2 (which is what we are
talking about for a 5x over reading)

A really large unloaded transformer (such as a 3.5kW 110V
construction site transformer) which has been left connected
to the mains could be the source of large reactive load of
extremely low PF.

--
Andrew Gabriel

"mark" wrote in message
oups.com...

The3rd Earl Of Derby wrote:
mark wrote:
The UK power companies are now installing digital electricity meters
in all homes .


These meters read in KVA hours and not kilo watt hours like the old
analogue ones used to do .

Means you guys out there with machines with electric motors and ...
transformers, inductive devices ,strip lights will now be charged up
to 5 times more for using your power....the new digital meters now
read that way.

I'm not happy

I phoned up Ampy the maker of this meter.

And they say it DOES NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT POWER FACTOR
it reads only in kva hours.

MODEL NUMBER

5235A


British gas my energy provider, say they will not change the meter.

BRITISH GAS SAY THAT EVERYONE WILL HAVE ONE OF THESE METERS INSTALLED
WITHIN THE NEXT FEW YEARS

They also say that "ALL" other electricity providers are going down
the same route

So therefor you're all going to be in the same boat as me .

IE your overall electricity bills will shoot up 75 percent if you use
your machinery in your workshop for a couple of hours a day...domestic


Example I used to use about three units on the old ANALOGUE meter for
...for a couple of hours work in the workshop

This new fangled digital meter now reads 11 units of the same time
period ..
the new meter isn't faulty ...this guys is the future

I URGE EVERYONE HERE ...WHO HAS ONE OF THESE DIGITAL METERS FITTED TO
GET IN TOUCH WITH

ENERGY WATCH

http://www.energywatch.org.uk/

PHONE

08459 060708


They wont have a clue what you are talking about ...but the more
people phone this number ...the more this fraud will sink in with
them.


All the best...mark


Hi Mark

Thanks for the posting

I have just checked my recently fitted meter, we also use British Gas.

My Meter is an Ampey 5224E which says on the front in big writing Multi
Rated Watt Hour meter and has a figure of 1000 imp/kwh

It would appear that they may have fitted the wrong meter to your
installation

HTH

Tony

On Oct 5, 6:50 pm, "The3rd Earl Of Derby" wrote:
mark wrote:

Ampy dont make that model number this is the nearest?
http://www.ampymetering.com/uk/frame....htm~mainFrame

--
Sir Benjamin Middlethwaite

It's not there web site yet because its new ...that was ampy's
explaination .

all the best..mark

Well if this is the case? I would strongly object to having this meter
installed and insist on the conventional meter put back in otherwise hit


Why on earth do you think the lack of a listing of a new model on a web
site gives you grounds to object?

MBQ

mark wrote:
(snipped)

These meters read in KVA hours and not kilo watt hours like the old
analogue ones used to do .

Means you guys out there with machines with electric motors and ...
transformers, inductive devices ,strip lights will now be charged up to
5 times more for using your power....the new digital meters now read
that way.

I'm not happy

I phoned up Ampy the maker of this meter.

And they say it DOES NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT POWER FACTOR
it reads only in kva hours.

MODEL NUMBER

5235A

I'm with Brit Gas and had my meter changed in May, It has the same
model number as yours and clearly states KWH (1000 imp/kwh)
Trevor Smith

Trevor Smith wrote:
mark wrote:
(snipped)

These meters read in KVA hours and not kilo watt hours like the old
analogue ones used to do .

Means you guys out there with machines with electric motors and ...
transformers, inductive devices ,strip lights will now be charged up to
5 times more for using your power....the new digital meters now read
that way.

I'm not happy

I phoned up Ampy the maker of this meter.

And they say it DOES NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT POWER FACTOR
it reads only in kva hours.

MODEL NUMBER

5235A

I'm with Brit Gas and had my meter changed in May, It has the same
model number as yours and clearly states KWH (1000 imp/kwh)
Trevor Smith

YES thats my meter .


the guy at ampy over the phone told me it was something different and a
kva meter rather than a kilowatt meter.


he must of got mixed up or something

this started me off on this path .

it does say as described.

and i did some tests today.

shows meter is ok ..

RESULTS

Tests started whist all things were running ...waited at the meter, and
waited for it to indicate another unit before I performed test.

set divers watch ...and waited to see how long it would take to use two
units on the meter.

was like watching paint dry


test 1

for the workshop ... house turned off...

1000 watts of lights turned on.
phase converter going.
and lathe running off the converter in 2 hp mode (has three speed motor
1.5 hp 2 hp and 2.5 hp) idling at 600 rpm or so.

2.4 units used over 1 hour period.

Test 2


Everything turned off and just the 3hp comp turned on

used 2.45 units over 1 hour period.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


These, I think are good results ...and are correct and show meter is
working very well


I'm at a loss to know what's been happening over the last few weeks.
....
and why this meter has clocked up so many units, avaraging 170 units a
week

next tests will be done on the house. (SUNDAY)


all the best..mark

I'm at a loss to know what's been happening over the last few weeks.
...
and why this meter has clocked up so many units, avaraging 170 units a
week

next tests will be done on the house. (SUNDAY)


all the best..mark

Someone left the Immersion heater on ?

Nick

mark wrote:

set divers watch ...and waited to see how long it would take to use two
units on the meter.

was like watching paint dry

For a much quicker answer make use of that flashing LED. 1000 flashes
per kWh means that the true power consumption in watts is 60 times the
number of flashes per minute. Or if you are trying to measure a very
low power level use 3600 divided by the time in seconds between
consecutive flashes.

--
Andy