Hi-

At the end of December, last year, whilst I was away for a week, I had
some fungus intrude into my living room at floor level from one of the
exterior walls. I informed the landlord, and they scraped it away and put
bleach down. It hasn't come back, but there's still something of a
fungal/"wet dog" smell in the area. The property is a recent (2002)
conversion of an old church (~1850s) with thick exterior stone walls. The
fungus came through near a chunky stone pillar that shows significant
signs of efflorescence in its paintwork. For better or for worse, I've now
bought the property.

The fungus looked *very* much like
http://www.grzyby.pl/gatunki/Serpula_lacrymans.htm, but is there any
chance it's /not/ S. Lacrymans (aka Dry Rot)? As the fruiting shown in the
photo is the last stage for Dry Rot, is it probably gone for good
in that patch now, or should I get the carpets, skirting board and
interior stud wall ripped up to check?

Best Regards,
Alex.
--
Alex Butcher, Bristol UK. PGP/GnuPG ID:0x5010dbff

"[T]he whole point about the reason why I think it is important we go for
identity cards and an identity database today is that identity fraud and
abuse is a major, major problem. Now the civil liberties aspect of it, look
it is a view, I don't personally think it matters very much."
- Tony Blair, 6 June 2006 http://www.number-10.gov.uk/output/Page9566.asp

Alex Butcher wrote:
or should I get the carpets, skirting board and
interior stud wall ripped up to check?


The most sensible thing to do,if it is dry rot?

Best to be sure and catch it early rather than shell out a few pianos later
on. :-)


--
Sir Benjamin Middlethwaite

"Alex Butcher" wrote in message
news
Hi-

At the end of December, last year, whilst I was away for a week, I had
some fungus intrude into my living room at floor level from one of the
exterior walls. I informed the landlord, and they scraped it away and put
bleach down. It hasn't come back, but there's still something of a
fungal/"wet dog" smell in the area. The property is a recent (2002)
conversion of an old church (~1850s) with thick exterior stone walls. The
fungus came through near a chunky stone pillar that shows significant
signs of efflorescence in its paintwork. For better or for worse, I've now
bought the property.

The fungus looked *very* much like
http://www.grzyby.pl/gatunki/Serpula_lacrymans.htm, but is there any
chance it's /not/ S. Lacrymans (aka Dry Rot)? As the fruiting shown in the
photo is the last stage for Dry Rot, is it probably gone for good
in that patch now, or should I get the carpets, skirting board and
interior stud wall ripped up to check?

Best Regards,
Alex.


Alex, I'm sorry to tell you I think you probably have a major battle on your
hands. Did you actually see a fruiting body, as in your picture? If so
there is little doubt this is true Dry Rot, Serpula Lacrymans. As you say,
the fruiting body is the final stage of development, but that doesn't mean
the end of it, far from it. As long as it has a source of food and the
conditions are right it will just keep on spreading. The point about dry
rot, how it gets its name, is that once established it can transport
moisture from one location in order to attack otherwise dry and healthy
timber in another. The "feelers" it sends out to transport the moisture and
search for food can even find their way through masonry, and any part of the
fungus that is not killed off by treatment or burning is able to regenerate.

The reason it is fairly rare is that it is very picky about the conditions
it needs to thrive. It has to be slightly damp (not too much), dark, and
lacking any ventilation. There must be a place somewhere in your building,
under the floor probably, where these conditions exist. It's too late now
for ventilation alone to cure it (which it would do if it were cellar fungus
or other type of wet rot) but it will at least hinder it from spreading, so
you need to check that there are adequate airbricks to ventilate the floor
void.

This is a serious problem and often requires drastic measures to get rid of.
There's a chapter in the Book of Leviticus in the Bible that describes how
to get rid of dry rot - pull the house down and cast the stones into an
unclean place. Nowadays there are chemicals that can kill it, but all
infected wood has to be removed and burnt, and often all masonry affected
needs to be injected. Bleach isn't effective at all. This isn't a DIY job,
you need to call in a specialist building preservation firm.

My feeling, if the conversion was only 4 years ago, is that developer
probably failed to take proper measures to prevent rot attack and you may
have a legitimate claim against him, but you will need a Chartered Building
Surveyor's report to confirm that. If you had a full survey done when you
bought it, your surveyor might have been expected to point out the lack of
ventilation, even if he couldn't inspect the timbers. And if there's an
NHBC Certificate you probably have a valid claim on that too. Otherwise I'm
afraid normal building insurance policies do not cover this.

Peter

Peter Taylor wrote:

snip lots of good stuff

This isn't a DIY job, you need to call in a specialist building
preservation firm.

I don't agree with that bit though for two reasons. Firstly, many timber
treatment firms seem to be in a similar class to the damp proofing ones!
Secondly there is no black magic here - dry rot is eminently DIY
treatable.

The first thing to do is fix the cause of rot (i.e. the source of
water). Then get the ventilation right so that you prevent the
possibility of return. Remove all timber showing any visible trace of
infection plus an additional meter of sound wood beyond that. Hack off
the plaster, treat all masonry in the surrounding plus woodwork in the
surrounding area using suitable chemical treatments. Let it dry out for
a little bit and then replaster and decorate etc.



--
Cheers,

John.

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| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Peter Taylor wrote:

snip lots of good stuff

This isn't a DIY job, you need to call in a specialist building
preservation firm.

I don't agree with that bit though for two reasons. Firstly, many timber
treatment firms seem to be in a similar class to the damp proofing ones!

That's true, but there are some very good ones too.

Secondly there is no black magic here - dry rot is eminently DIY
treatable.

The first thing to do is fix the cause of rot (i.e. the source of water).
Then get the ventilation right so that you prevent the possibility of
return. Remove all timber showing any visible trace of infection plus an
additional meter of sound wood beyond that.

Correct advice but so easy to say. Renewing all timber within a metre
distance could involve complete renewal of the ground floor, partial renewal
of plumbing and electrical installations, perhaps a new staircase, plus all
the plastering, tiling and decoration. The fruiting body and the appearance
of fungus 10 months ago suggests the fungus may have spread extensively.

I agree dry rot is treatable by the DIY-er if it's not too extensive and as
long as he understands how easily the fungus can regenerate and attack
perfectly dry timber. Personally I think I would prefer to have a
guarantee. But before Alex dives into trying to cure it himself he needs to
at least have a thorough investigation and a professional report on how it
was caused and the extent of treatment required if he is to have any hope of
claiming the cost back.

Peter

Peter Taylor wrote:

"John Rumm" wrote in message

The first thing to do is fix the cause of rot (i.e. the source of water).

That's good advise.

Then get the ventilation right so that you prevent the possibility of
return.

That's not bad advise either.

Remove all timber showing any visible trace of infection plus an
additional meter of sound wood beyond that.

That you don't need to do. Wait for the timber to dry and remove the
decayed sections.

and attack perfectly dry timber.

That's is not correct and make no sense if you think about it. It's a
fungus and they all require water to grow and feed. Every last one of
them. Find the leak, fix it, and the fungus dies.

Any guarantee issued by a remedial company will require you to keep
your house in a water tight condition (ie.: well maintained).
Essentially: keep your house dry and you wont get dry rot. It's an easy
guarantee to make and even easier to get out of.

mg.

Peter Taylor wrote:

"John Rumm" wrote in message

The first thing to do is fix the cause of rot (i.e. the source of water).

That's good advise.

Then get the ventilation right so that you prevent the possibility of
return.

That's not bad advise either.

Remove all timber showing any visible trace of infection plus an
additional meter of sound wood beyond that.

That you don't need to do. Wait for the timber to dry and remove the
decayed sections.

and attack perfectly dry timber.

That's is not correct and makes no sense if you think about it. It's a
fungus and they all require water to grow and feed. Every last one of
them. Find the leak, fix it, and the fungus dies.

Any guarantee issued by a remedial company will require you to keep
your house in a water tight condition (ie.: well maintained).
Essentially: keep your house dry and you wont get dry rot. It's an easy
guarantee to make and even easier to get out of.

mg.

Remove all timber showing any visible trace of infection plus an
additional meter of sound wood beyond that.

That you don't need to do. Wait for the timber to dry and remove the
decayed sections.

and attack perfectly dry timber.

That's is not correct and makes no sense if you think about it. It's a
fungus and they all require water to grow and feed. Every last one of
them. Find the leak, fix it, and the fungus dies.

Go back and read Peter Taylor's first post! Water is one of the decay
products and the hyphae transfer it to fresh sites. It may go quiescent when
it is completely dry and relatively well ventilated, but it won't be dead.
Box it up when it isn't all removed and it will start up again. Been there,
done that.

wrote:

Remove all timber showing any visible trace of infection plus an
additional meter of sound wood beyond that.


That you don't need to do. Wait for the timber to dry and remove the
decayed sections.


and attack perfectly dry timber.


That's is not correct and make no sense if you think about it. It's a
fungus and they all require water to grow and feed. Every last one of
them. Find the leak, fix it, and the fungus dies.

I think the point we were both making is that dry rot is able to carry
its own water supply from the "damp" area into other dry ones. So timber
that is itself dry can be attacked so long as there is still a source of
water to the fungus elsewhere.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In article ,
"Newshound" writes:
Go back and read Peter Taylor's first post! Water is one of the decay
products and the hyphae transfer it to fresh sites. It may go quiescent when

Water isn't a decay product -- it's transferred to the decay site
by the hyphae. It is required to increase the moisture level of
the timber under attack so the enzyme the dry rot produces which
breaks down cellulose in the timber can operate. This forms the food
to enable the hyphae to grow. Sometimes there's an excess of water
and you can see tiny droplets hanging from the fungus. It was thought
at one time that dry rot could extract moisture from the air, but I
don't think this is believed anymore, and probably arose from seeing
those tiny water droplets.

it is completely dry and relatively well ventilated, but it won't be dead.
Box it up when it isn't all removed and it will start up again. Been there,
done that.

Even if it was all removed, if you box it up in same conditions as
before, another spore will germinate (although it does require a
slightly tighter moisture range to germinate than to grow after
germination). The spores blow around everywhere anyway, as it's
been spread across the UK for centuries.

Dry rot is native in caves of the Himalayas where it feeds on
tree roots which break through the cave walls. It was imported
to the UK in the hulls of wooden ships, and the goods carried
(particularly wooden ones) ensured it was distributed across
the UK. The native climate in the UK is too dry for dry rot to
germinate and live, but micro climates found in buildings can
sometimes emulate the conditions in a damp cave.

--
Andrew Gabriel

wrote in message
ups.com...

Peter Taylor wrote:

"John Rumm" wrote in message

The first thing to do is fix the cause of rot (i.e. the source of
water).

That's good advise.

Then get the ventilation right so that you prevent the possibility of
return.

That's not bad advise either.

Remove all timber showing any visible trace of infection plus an
additional meter of sound wood beyond that.

That you don't need to do. Wait for the timber to dry and remove the
decayed sections.

and attack perfectly dry timber.

That's is not correct and makes no sense if you think about it. It's a
fungus and they all require water to grow and feed. Every last one of
them. Find the leak, fix it, and the fungus dies.

This is partly true, but what I said was also correct.

You're right that DR will not initially attack dry timber (anything less
than 20% moisture content), so there must be (or have been) some damp timber
in a poorly ventilated situation for it to have started in the first place.
The various species of "wet rot" need higher levels of moisture, but DR
prefers only a very low level, around 22%. That's why it's quite common for
attacks to occur when a building is drying out, for example after flooding
or after a quenching by firemen's hoses.

However, once it is established, DR is unique in that it can transport
moisture from this damp location to other timber that might be bone dry, and
cause it to become damp enough for the fungus to extract the cellulose. Wet
rot will only attack timber that is already damp. I remember seeing one
case of DR in the cellar of a hotel, where the fungus had spread upwards of
10 metres from a damp wall, across the joists and boards of the floor above,
which were nowhere near any dampness.

I agree that cutting off the source of dampness and allowing the structure
to dry out will (eventually) cause the fungus to stop spreading. But that's
often easier said than done. But the fungus doesn't die, in the sense it
has been eradicated. If any dampness reappears the fungus will immediately
come to life and start spreading again.

Peter

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...

Dry rot is native in caves of the Himalayas where it feeds on
tree roots which break through the cave walls. It was imported
to the UK in the hulls of wooden ships, and the goods carried
(particularly wooden ones) ensured it was distributed across
the UK.

I never knew that before - thanks for the snippet. How does that square
with being mentioned, way back, in the Old Testament?

Peter

"Peter Taylor" wrote in message
news:4522ce57$0$16579$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-n
SNIP

My brother bought a cheap terraced house where dry rot was found and he
treated it DIY. Cause was previous owners crazy paved front drive was built
over the air bricks and all enhanced by a long time leaking gutter. Dry rot
spread from blocked airbricks to inside floor timbers and wall plaster work.

He cut away all the floor and joists (build little brick towers to support
the cut off joists from rest of house) for over a metre from last sighting
of mould tendrils. Remove plaster again over a metre away from damp.Removed
the crazy paving thus exposing the airbricks and replaced/repaired the
gutter. Carefully bag all the waste and burn as dropped peices of rubbish
could lie in wait for years until the conditions are right. Treat exposed
wood and brick work with dry rot treatmemt, leave for a week and repeat. He
sealed the room off during treatment as it recommended the house should not
be lived in during treatment....

Anyway replaced joists (pressure treated), floorboards and plaster and all
looks fine now. Just check airbricks and gutters occasionaly and hopefully
gone for good.

Ian_m wrote:
"Peter Taylor" wrote in message
news:4522ce57$0$16579$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-n
SNIP

My brother bought a cheap terraced house where dry rot was found and he
treated it DIY. Cause was previous owners crazy paved front drive was built
over the air bricks and all enhanced by a long time leaking gutter. Dry rot
spread from blocked airbricks to inside floor timbers and wall plaster work.

He cut away all the floor and joists (build little brick towers to support
the cut off joists from rest of house) for over a metre from last sighting
of mould tendrils. Remove plaster again over a metre away from damp.Removed
the crazy paving thus exposing the airbricks and replaced/repaired the
gutter. Carefully bag all the waste and burn as dropped peices of rubbish
could lie in wait for years until the conditions are right. Treat exposed
wood and brick work with dry rot treatmemt, leave for a week and repeat. He
sealed the room off during treatment as it recommended the house should not
be lived in during treatment....

Anyway replaced joists (pressure treated), floorboards and plaster and all
looks fine now. Just check airbricks and gutters occasionaly and hopefully
gone for good.

The previous owners of our chapel (now being converted) had dry roy
treated by "specialists" who were absolutely crap and the rot came back
in a big way. We are now doing all the things that they should have
done - unblocking air vents, installing extra ventilation, dpm affixed
to damp wall, dpm to all joist/masonry junctions, removing rubbish from
under floor area, treating timber etc etc.
There is still a potential prob we realise - cold underfloor area gets
condensation when air absolute humidity is high i.e. in spring thru to
autumn. Result boards never quite drying out, staying cold, getting
more condensation. Solution - several days blasting 3kw fan heaters
down holes in floor until boards really dry. Seems to have worked but
am monitoring the situation at intervals - have left liftable boards in
various places and peer down with a shaving mirror and a bright torch.
The specialist ****s were "Bagguley & Jenkins" of Notts. Don't touch em
with a barge pole (or the pole will get dry rot!).

cheers
Norman

"Ian_m" wrote in message
...
"Peter Taylor" wrote in message
news:4522ce57$0$16579$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-n
SNIP

My brother bought a cheap terraced house where dry rot was found and he
treated it DIY. Cause was previous owners crazy paved front drive was
built over the air bricks and all enhanced by a long time leaking gutter.
Dry rot spread from blocked airbricks to inside floor timbers and wall
plaster work.

He cut away all the floor and joists (build little brick towers to support
the cut off joists from rest of house) for over a metre from last
sighting of mould tendrils. Remove plaster again over a metre away from
damp.Removed the crazy paving thus exposing the airbricks and
replaced/repaired the gutter. Carefully bag all the waste and burn as
dropped peices of rubbish could lie in wait for years until the conditions
are right. Treat exposed wood and brick work with dry rot treatmemt, leave
for a week and repeat. He sealed the room off during treatment as it
recommended the house should not be lived in during treatment....

Anyway replaced joists (pressure treated), floorboards and plaster and all
looks fine now. Just check airbricks and gutters occasionaly and hopefully
gone for good.


That's excellent. If you ever see someone on their hands and knees peering
into an airbrick, you can bet he's either a nerdy surveyor like me or
sometime in the past he's suffered a bout of dry rot!

Peter

Thanks for all your contributions. I've sent a letter to the management
company, together with a print of the photo I linked to. Now it's just a
case of seeing how they respond, whether dry rot is confirmed by a
professional inspection, and who ends up paying.

Mainly because my property is only a leasehold, and partly because I'd
like a guarantee to pass on to any nervous buyer in the future, I won't be
taking this on as a DIY job, but I'm sure I'll become a regular in
uk.d-i-y in due course (I nearly contributed to the 'fishy smell' thread,
but you guys seem to have nailed it - I was going to suggest the light
fitting too! :-)

Cheers,
Alex.

--
Alex Butcher, Bristol UK. PGP/GnuPG ID:0x5010dbff

"[T]he whole point about the reason why I think it is important we go for
identity cards and an identity database today is that identity fraud and
abuse is a major, major problem. Now the civil liberties aspect of it, look
it is a view, I don't personally think it matters very much."
- Tony Blair, 6 June 2006 http://www.number-10.gov.uk/output/Page9566.asp

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Newshound" writes:
Go back and read Peter Taylor's first post! Water is one of the decay
products and the hyphae transfer it to fresh sites. It may go quiescent
when

Water isn't a decay product -- it's transferred to the decay site
by the hyphae. It is required to increase the moisture level of
the timber under attack so the enzyme the dry rot produces which
breaks down cellulose in the timber can operate. This forms the food
to enable the hyphae to grow. Sometimes there's an excess of water
and you can see tiny droplets hanging from the fungus. It was thought
at one time that dry rot could extract moisture from the air, but I
don't think this is believed anymore, and probably arose from seeing
those tiny water droplets.

It eats cellulose. Some of the carbon turns into carbon dioxide. Some of the
hydrogen and oxygen turns into water. In that sense water is one of the
decay products. The hyphae transfer this to a dry site and the process
continues.