Hi All,

So the time has finally come. Actually staying in hotel last week with
a fantastic shower was the last nail in the coffin for our pathetic
gravity feed system. We are going to investigate the price of having a
high pressure hot water system fitted.
Ive had a look at the heatweb website and am starting to educate myself
into the benefits of heat banks and megaflows. In our house (4 bed) we
have 3 bathrooms which consist of one bath, three showers and three
sinks plus the kitchen hot water (also 15 radiators). Its quite a big
system. Does anybody have any experience of fitting these type of
systems into an existing Yplan gravity feed system and what size of
unit would be required. I would like to be knowledgeable when the
prospective plumbers turn up to give me a quote for obvious reasons.
Is it a major job?

BTW how would I know if the mains water was high enough in terms of
pressure for use with such a system? Our mains riser in the kitchen
comes in through a large bore pipe (70's house) and is stepped down
straight away under the sink to 15mm for feeding the existing gravity
system.

Thanks for any advice,
Matthew

BTW how would I know if the mains water was high enough in terms of
pressure for use with such a system? Our mains riser in the kitchen
comes in through a large bore pipe (70's house) and is stepped down
straight away under the sink to 15mm for feeding the existing gravity
system.

You need to measure the static pressure and the flow rate at the kitchen
tap. Try it at several times of day, specifically including the morning
"rush hour". You may have to contrive something to measure the pressure. In
actuality, the flow rate is more important, although static pressure can be
a good indicator of potential if you know the pipework to be well sized.

If all is OK, you will need a 210L (or thereabouts) unvented cylinder or
heatbank. If you live with greater than average numbers of teenage girls,
consider a slight upgrade.

Consider replacing the 15mm pipe with 22mm. Also consider running a
dedicated 22mm line from the stop cock to the HWC/heat bank. The output from
the heatbank should be in 15mm to reduce the hot water dead leg time and
wastage, especially if your pressure is good.

Christian.

Christian McArdle wrote:

If all is OK, you will need a 210L (or thereabouts) unvented cylinder

My bath is 500x1500x300mm deep. It takes 225 liters to fill it.

I have a 700 liter tank, and sometimes that isn't enough..

My bath is 500x1500x300mm deep. It takes 225 liters to fill it.

I have a 700 liter tank, and sometimes that isn't enough..

There is something wrong with your system if 700 litres won't fill a 225
litre bath.

Christian.

Christian McArdle wrote:
My bath is 500x1500x300mm deep. It takes 225 liters to fill it.

I have a 700 liter tank, and sometimes that isn't enough..

There is something wrong with your system if 700 litres won't fill a 225
litre bath.

Christian.

Especially considering that you would expect some cold to be added as well

"Richard Conway" wrote in message
...
Christian McArdle wrote:
My bath is 500x1500x300mm deep. It takes 225 liters to fill it.

I have a 700 liter tank, and sometimes that isn't enough..

There is something wrong with your system if 700 litres won't fill
a 225
litre bath.

Christian.

Especially considering that you would expect some cold to be added
as well


Perhaps he's a serial bather G

AWEM

There is something wrong with your system if 700 litres won't
fill a 225 litre bath.

Especially considering that you would expect some cold to be added
as well

Perhaps he's a serial bather G

With a decent boiler, this wouldn't matter, as it should be capable of
entirely regenerating the bath full of water in about 22 minutes. The 700
litre tank would provide about 1100 litres of bath water without any
regeneration at all, which is almost 5 of his oversized bath loads.

Christian.

In article .com,
Matthew wrote:
So the time has finally come. Actually staying in hotel last week with
a fantastic shower was the last nail in the coffin for our pathetic
gravity feed system.

Chances are the hotel had a gravity fed system...

We are going to investigate the price of having a high pressure hot
water system fitted.

Before that could you re-site the header tank up higher? You'd be amazed
how little extra height effects pressure if you're starting from near zero
head.

--
*Snowmen fall from Heaven unassembled*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Mon, 21 Aug 2006 16:40:56 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Christian McArdle wrote:

If all is OK, you will need a 210L (or thereabouts) unvented cylinder

My bath is 500x1500x300mm deep. It takes 225 liters to fill it.

I have a 700 liter tank, and sometimes that isn't enough..

Something wrong here...

1)The water in the bath is not pure HW so it will only consume around half
that quantity of HW.

2) Your bath is sized like most peoples however when you get in it, you
only need the water around you (as you will displace anything from 50-100
litres).

The received wisdom is that 70 litres of HW water needs to be stored per
bathroom. (Obvious teenage mermaids and "celebs" taking "hollywood
showers" make for a bit more still).




--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html
Gas Fitting Standards Docs he http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFittingStandards

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article .com,
Matthew wrote:
So the time has finally come. Actually staying in hotel last week with
a fantastic shower was the last nail in the coffin for our pathetic
gravity feed system.

Chances are the hotel had a gravity fed system...

Chances are it will not.

We are going to investigate the price
of having a high pressure hot
water system fitted.

Before that could

Will you please eff off as you are an idiot.

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
...
BTW how would I know if the mains water was high enough in terms of
pressure for use with such a system? Our mains riser in the kitchen
comes in through a large bore pipe (70's house) and is stepped down
straight away under the sink to 15mm for feeding the existing gravity
system.

You need to measure the static pressure and the flow rate at the kitchen
tap. Try it at several times of day, specifically including the morning
"rush hour". You may have to contrive something to measure the pressure.
In actuality, the flow rate is more important, although static pressure
can be a good indicator of potential if you know the pipework to be well
sized.

If all is OK, you will need a 210L (or thereabouts) unvented cylinder or
heatbank. If you live with greater than average numbers of teenage girls,
consider a slight upgrade.

Consider replacing the 15mm pipe with 22mm. Also consider running a
dedicated 22mm line from the stop cock to the HWC/heat bank. The output
from the heatbank should be in 15mm to reduce the hot water dead leg time
and wastage, especially if your pressure is good.

Christian.

Best go for a heat bank as unvented cylinders require an annual service of
approx £100. Heat bank can operate at higher pressures, usually meaning
good flows.

If having 15mm on the draw-offs, have a manifold at the heat bank, which
means all the DHW draw-offs go back to the one point

Christian McArdle wrote:
My bath is 500x1500x300mm deep. It takes 225 liters to fill it.

I have a 700 liter tank, and sometimes that isn't enough..

There is something wrong with your system if 700 litres won't fill a 225
litre bath.

It will only fill three of them.
Christian.

Richard Conway wrote:
Christian McArdle wrote:
My bath is 500x1500x300mm deep. It takes 225 liters to fill it.

I have a 700 liter tank, and sometimes that isn't enough..

There is something wrong with your system if 700 litres won't fill a
225 litre bath.

Christian.

Especially considering that you would expect some cold to be added as well

You don;t know much about my bathing habits so you?
OR about ,y wifes habit of leaving the kitchen sink hot tap running
while she wanders around thinking about something else entirely...

Andrew Mawson wrote:
"Richard Conway" wrote in message
...
Christian McArdle wrote:
My bath is 500x1500x300mm deep. It takes 225 liters to fill it.

I have a 700 liter tank, and sometimes that isn't enough..
There is something wrong with your system if 700 litres won't fill
a 225
litre bath.

Christian.
Especially considering that you would expect some cold to be added
as well


Perhaps he's a serial bather G


Indeed I am.

AWEM

Ed Sirett wrote:
On Mon, 21 Aug 2006 16:40:56 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Christian McArdle wrote:

If all is OK, you will need a 210L (or thereabouts) unvented cylinder
My bath is 500x1500x300mm deep. It takes 225 liters to fill it.

I have a 700 liter tank, and sometimes that isn't enough..

Something wrong here...

1)The water in the bath is not pure HW so it will only consume around half
that quantity of HW.

2) Your bath is sized like most peoples however when you get in it, you
only need the water around you (as you will displace anything from 50-100
litres).

The received wisdom is that 70 litres of HW water needs to be stored per
bathroom. (Obvious teenage mermaids and "celebs" taking "hollywood
showers" make for a bit more still).


I never let received wisdom get in the way of personal experience.

There is something wrong with your system if 700 litres won't fill a 225
litre bath.

It will only fill three of them.

Wow, you like your baths at 60C? Even with a cold bit at the bottom of the
cylinder, it should fill four.

If the only reason you need it so big is because your wife leaves the tap
on, I'd go for a much smaller tank, as it will waste less energy and
regenerate from cold quicker.

Christian.

Doctor Drivel wrote:
"Christian McArdle" wrote in message

Best go for a heat bank as unvented cylinders require an annual service of
approx £100.


I used to have an unvented system and I was never required to have or
to pay for a service.

Heat bank can operate at higher pressures, usually meaning
good flows.

If having 15mm on the draw-offs, have a manifold at the heat bank, which
means all the DHW draw-offs go back to the one point

My unvented system was at 1bar pressure but it had a reasonable flow
rate. My house now has a higher pressure but the flow is rubbish so
that really needs to be checked before anyone starts fitting the mains
fed systems.

wrote in message
ps.com...

Doctor Drivel wrote:
"Christian McArdle" wrote in message

Best go for a heat bank as unvented cylinders require an annual service of
approx £100.


I used to have an unvented system and I was never required to have or
to pay for a service.


"Every" maker stipulates an annual service.


Heat bank can operate at higher pressures, usually meaning
good flows.

If having 15mm on the draw-offs, have a manifold at the heat bank, which
means all the DHW draw-offs go back to the one point

My unvented system was at 1bar pressure but it had a reasonable flow
rate. My house now has a higher pressure but the flow is rubbish so
that really needs to be checked before anyone starts fitting the mains
fed systems.


Yep. good pressure does not mean good flow. It can be improved greatly by
installing an accumulator.

Doctor Drivel wrote:
I used to have an unvented system and I was never required to have or
to pay for a service.


"Every" maker stipulates an annual service.


Yeah but it's usally refreshing the bubble or checking the pressure
vessel, and a quick check of the safety valves all of which can be done
whenever you like in a matter of minutes. I don't know though these
days whether one still needs local council/water board approval to fit
one.

wrote in message
ups.com...

Doctor Drivel wrote:
I used to have an unvented system and I was never required to have or
to pay for a service.


"Every" maker stipulates an annual service.


Yeah but it's usally refreshing the
bubble or checking the pressure
vessel, and a quick check of the
safety valves all of which can be done
whenever you like in a matter of minutes.

The service "has" to undertaken by an "approved" unnted certificate
installr. Thermal stores/heat banks can be DIYed and no annual service.
Have a leak and if no service and proof of service then no insurance payout.

I don't know though these
days whether one still needs local
council/water board approval to fit
one.

An unvented cylinder? Only an "approved" unvented certificate installer can
install one. It is againt the law to fit one otherwise, unless signed off by
a BCO.

On Tue, 22 Aug 2006 00:18:30 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Ed Sirett wrote:
On Mon, 21 Aug 2006 16:40:56 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Christian McArdle wrote:

If all is OK, you will need a 210L (or thereabouts) unvented cylinder
My bath is 500x1500x300mm deep. It takes 225 liters to fill it.

I have a 700 liter tank, and sometimes that isn't enough..

Something wrong here...

1)The water in the bath is not pure HW so it will only consume around half
that quantity of HW.

2) Your bath is sized like most peoples however when you get in it, you
only need the water around you (as you will displace anything from 50-100
litres).

The received wisdom is that 70 litres of HW water needs to be stored per
bathroom. (Obvious teenage mermaids and "celebs" taking "hollywood
showers" make for a bit more still).


I never let received wisdom get in the way of personal experience.

In which case something is not working aright.

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html
Gas Fitting Standards Docs he http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFittingStandards

On Mon, 21 Aug 2006 22:58:58 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article .com,
Matthew wrote:
So the time has finally come. Actually staying in hotel last week with
a fantastic shower was the last nail in the coffin for our pathetic
gravity feed system.

Chances are the hotel had a gravity fed system...

Chances are it will not.

For once, this once at least, I agree with you.


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html
Gas Fitting Standards Docs he http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFittingStandards

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 21 Aug 2006 22:58:58 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article .com,
Matthew wrote:
So the time has finally come. Actually staying in hotel last week with
a fantastic shower was the last nail in the coffin for our pathetic
gravity feed system.

Chances are the hotel had a gravity fed system...

Chances are it will not.

For once, this once at least, I agree with you.

Best you always, as it will be much easier for you then.

Ed Sirett wrote:
On Mon, 21 Aug 2006 22:58:58 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article .com,
Matthew wrote:
So the time has finally come. Actually staying in hotel last week with
a fantastic shower was the last nail in the coffin for our pathetic
gravity feed system.
Chances are the hotel had a gravity fed system...
Chances are it will not.

For once, this once at least, I agree with you.


Thats the trouble with huge quantities of high pressure hot water.

the temptation to stay luxuriating in it for hours...

Doctor Drivel wrote:

The service "has" to undertaken by an "approved" unnted certificate
installr. Thermal stores/heat banks can be DIYed and no annual service.
Have a leak and if no service and proof of service then no insurance payout.

Says who?


An unvented cylinder? Only an "approved" unvented certificate installer can
install one. It is againt the law to fit one otherwise, unless signed off by
a BCO.

...but who-ever fits it also needs local approval. i.e the fitter still
needs to get approval to fit one, even if they're registered.

wrote in message
oups.com...

Doctor Drivel wrote:

The service "has" to undertaken by
an "approved" unvented certificate
installer. Thermal stores/heat banks
can be DIYed and no annual service.
Have a leak and if no service and proof
of service then no insurance payout.

Says who?

The service? Having an unvented certificate? The government say that.
Payout by insurance? The insurance companies.

An unvented cylinder? Only an
"approved" unvented certificate installer can
install one. It is againt the law to fit one
otherwise, unless signed off by a BCO.

..but who-ever fits it also needs local
approval. i.e the fitter still needs to get
approval to fit one, even if they're registered.


He doesn't get approval. He fits it. He then registers the fitting with the
LA.