I have had a lot of questions from people asking how to become a qualified
electrician (England and Wales), so I am putting on a series of one day
events to explain how you can do it.

http://www.magna.demon.co.uk/electri...s_training.htm

I am currently trading very successfully as an electrician. I am fully
qualified registered and legal, which I did without and further training,
simply by applying what I already knew from previous jobs. The trick is
knowing how to comply with all the convoluted bureaucracy.

Regards

Stephen

All but very minor electrical works now has to be notified, (since January
2005) to Building Control (Building Regulations Part P). The installation
must be installed or tested and certified by a registered 'Competent
Person'. Becoming a registered competent person is not cheap. I have worked
in the construction industry as an electrician, electrical designer,
contracts / project manager for forty years plus, on all manner of
electrical installations and even I would not be classed as a competent
person unless I became registered.

You consider you can train / teach 'many' people, providing them with enough
knowledge, to become a qualified electrician, in one day, when it took me,
and many like me, a five year apprenticeship to become qualified. I think
not.

Send me a list of the people who take your course so I can avoid them if I
ever need any part of my installation certified.


"Stephen" wrote in message
...
I have had a lot of questions from people asking how to become a qualified
electrician (England and Wales), so I am putting on a series of one day
events to explain how you can do it.

http://www.magna.demon.co.uk/electri...s_training.htm

I am currently trading very successfully as an electrician. I am fully
qualified registered and legal, which I did without and further training,
simply by applying what I already knew from previous jobs. The trick is
knowing how to comply with all the convoluted bureaucracy.

Regards

Stephen

Can you clarify what you're offering?

Is it information about becoming Part P qualified - i.e. careers
advice?

Is it actual training in electrical work?

Is it training that wholly or partly leads to a Part P qualification?

Is it information/training about other routes to compliance such as
full plans/building notices?

Could you list the qualifications you hold?

In article ,
"Bright Spark" writes:
All but very minor electrical works now has to be notified, (since January
2005) to Building Control (Building Regulations Part P). The installation
must be installed or tested and certified by a registered 'Competent
Person'.

Actually, it's installed by a 'Competent Person' or tested and certified
by the Local Authority (or someone they assign) who does not need to be
a 'Competent Person' (and can be a DIY-installer themselves if the
Local Authority inspector is happy they know what they're doing).

However, the whole scheme is being ignored by most parties (electricians,
many Building Control Officers, and the public), most of whom are not the
slighest bit interested in it. The government department which introduced
it have now admitted they way over-estimated the number of electrical
accidents/deaths in the original Regulatory Impact Document (by including
incidents due to appliance faults, which are actually the majority of
incidents and not relevant for Part P).

--
Andrew Gabriel

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Bright Spark" writes:
All but very minor electrical works now has to be notified, (since
January
2005) to Building Control (Building Regulations Part P). The installation
must be installed or tested and certified by a registered 'Competent
Person'.

Actually, it's installed by a 'Competent Person' or tested and certified
by the Local Authority (or someone they assign) who does not need to be
a 'Competent Person' (and can be a DIY-installer themselves if the
Local Authority inspector is happy they know what they're doing).

However, the whole scheme is being ignored by most parties (electricians,
many Building Control Officers, and the public), most of whom are not the
slighest bit interested in it. The government department which introduced
it have now admitted they way over-estimated the number of electrical
accidents/deaths in the original Regulatory Impact Document (by including
incidents due to appliance faults, which are actually the majority of
incidents and not relevant for Part P).

Only when a house is sold may a test be applicable. People are taking it
seriously. Heating fitters who previously would do the wiring are now
getting Part P certified electricians to do it. The same with kitchen being
fitted by the major chains.

In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Heating fitters who previously would do the wiring are now
getting Part P certified electricians to do it.

Well at least that's a plus. Most of the wiring I've seen done by a
plumber - even although the plumbing is immaculate - is dreadful. Probably
think it's beneath them.

--
Small asylum seeker wanted as mud flap, must be flexible and willing to travel

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ews.net,
"Doctor Drivel" writes:

Only when a house is sold may a test be applicable. People are taking it
seriously. Heating fitters who previously would do the wiring are now
getting Part P certified electricians to do it. The same with kitchen being
fitted by the major chains.

My two indirect experiences of CORGI heating installations and
one of a kitchen being fitted since Part P range from no observance
of Part P whatsoever, to using it as an excuse not to do any of the
electrical work and just plug the boiler into a socket outlet ("that's
all we're allowed to do now, gov.").

No electrical test is applicable when a house is sold. Not even was one
included as part of the government's now abandoned Home Condition Report.

--
Andrew Gabriel

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article ews.net,
"Doctor Drivel" writes:

Only when a house is sold may a test be applicable. People are taking it
seriously. Heating fitters who previously would do the wiring are now
getting Part P certified electricians to do it. The same with kitchen
being
fitted by the major chains.

My two indirect experiences of CORGI heating installations and
one of a kitchen being fitted since Part P range from no observance
of Part P whatsoever, to using it as an excuse not to do any of the
electrical work and just plug the boiler into a socket outlet ("that's
all we're allowed to do now, gov.").

No electrical test is applicable when a house is sold. Not even was one
included as part of the government's now abandoned Home Condition Report.

I can quote you verbatim from the RICS Homebuyer's survey on the house I am
currently buying, I suspect they put the same on every survey - still
"caveat emptor":

"Visible wiring and fittings appear to be satisfactory with no obvious
defects. However, the

system is unlikely to comply with the very latest standards and some
upgrading may be

required. Further advice and estimates should be obtained from a qualified
electrician.

The Institute of Electrical Engineers recommend that domestic installations
should be

inspected every five years. It should be noted that any larger repair and
alteration works

now require Building Regulation approval, unless carried out by an approved
contractor. If

there is no evidence of a recent test, we advise that one should now be
carried out.

ACTION - You are advised to arrange for a qualified electrician, preferably
NICEIC

(www.niceic.org.uk) or ECA (www.eca.co.uk) approved, to test the
installation and quote for

any necessary remedial work."

In uk.d-i-y wrote:
Can you clarify what you're offering?

Is it information about becoming Part P qualified - i.e. careers
advice?

Is it actual training in electrical work?

Is it training that wholly or partly leads to a Part P qualification?

There isn't any such thing as "Part P qualification" is there?


Is it information/training about other routes to compliance such as
full plans/building notices?

Could you list the qualifications you hold?


--
Chris Green

There isn't any such thing as "Part P qualification" is there?

OK - Part P exemption for the pedant!

"Bright Spark" wrote in message
...
All but very minor electrical works now has to be notified, (since January
2005) to Building Control (Building Regulations Part P). The installation
must be installed or tested and certified by a registered 'Competent
Person'. Becoming a registered competent person is not cheap. I have
worked
in the construction industry as an electrician, electrical designer,
contracts / project manager for forty years plus, on all manner of
electrical installations and even I would not be classed as a competent
person unless I became registered.

You consider you can train / teach 'many' people, providing them with
enough
knowledge, to become a qualified electrician, in one day, when it took me,
and many like me, a five year apprenticeship to become qualified. I think
not.


I agree, it's not my intention to train people to be competent in one day.
What I am offering is a comprehensive, impartial guide of everything you
need to know to comply with the requirements. Some will need further
training and experience some will not.

A five year apprenticeship is one method, but in not necessary.

Stephen

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
reenews.net...

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Bright Spark" writes:
All but very minor electrical works now has to be notified, (since
January
2005) to Building Control (Building Regulations Part P). The
installation
must be installed or tested and certified by a registered 'Competent
Person'.

Actually, it's installed by a 'Competent Person' or tested and certified
by the Local Authority (or someone they assign) who does not need to be
a 'Competent Person' (and can be a DIY-installer themselves if the
Local Authority inspector is happy they know what they're doing).

However, the whole scheme is being ignored by most parties
(electricians,
many Building Control Officers, and the public), most of whom are not
the
slighest bit interested in it. The government department which
introduced
it have now admitted they way over-estimated the number of electrical
accidents/deaths in the original Regulatory Impact Document (by
including
incidents due to appliance faults, which are actually the majority of
incidents and not relevant for Part P).

Only when a house is sold may a test be applicable. People are taking it
seriously. Heating fitters who previously would do the wiring are now
getting Part P certified electricians to do it. The same with kitchen
being
fitted by the major chains.


The IET recommend a test periodiclly every 10 years

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article ews.net,
"Doctor Drivel" writes:

Only when a house is sold may a test be applicable. People are taking
it
seriously. Heating fitters who previously would do the wiring are now
getting Part P certified electricians to do it. The same with kitchen
being
fitted by the major chains.

My two indirect experiences of CORGI heating installations and
one of a kitchen being fitted since Part P range from no observance
of Part P whatsoever, to using it as an excuse not to do any of the
electrical work and just plug the boiler into a socket outlet ("that's
all we're allowed to do now, gov.").

No electrical test is applicable when a house is sold. Not even was one
included as part of the government's now abandoned Home Condition Report.

--
Andrew Gabriel

The IET recommend a test when the house is sold

wrote in message
ps.com...
Can you clarify what you're offering?

Yes

I qualified as a "competant person" about a year ago and my main difficulty
was finding a single source of impartial information, on what I actually had
to do. I have designed this one day event therefore to provide a list of
all the registering bodies, qualifications and acreditations you need. If
you have anough experience and initiative, this may be all you need. I have
in fact got people up and trading in one phone call. You may well need
further training and experience after the day, but you will leave with a
complete cheklist and plan.

I also run specific courses on all aspects of the job technical
organisational and business, if you need any subsequent advice


Is it information about becoming Part P qualified - i.e. careers
advice?

Yes it is


Is it actual training in electrical work?

No it's not, however I will point you to all the relevant information and
standards you need


Is it training that wholly or partly leads to a Part P qualification?

That depends on what qualifications and experience you already have, but
that is the basic intent


Is it information/training about other routes to compliance such as
full plans/building notices?

Yes if you mean how to perfom work legally without being a registered
"competant person"

Could you list the qualifications you hold?

I have an Honours Degree in Electronic Engineering (BSc Hons) am a Chartered
Electrical Engineer CEng) a Member of the Institute of Engineering
Technology (MIET) (Formerly the Institute of Electrical Engineerin IEE) and
am a Project Managment Profesional (PMP) registered with the Project
Management Institute (PMI) a class A competent registered electrician with
the National Association of Professional Inspectors and Testers (NAPIT)

In uk.d-i-y wrote:
There isn't any such thing as "Part P qualification" is there?

OK - Part P exemption for the pedant!

I meant rather that you can't "qualify" for it, the only way to be
able to 'self certify' which is what I assume is meant is to be a
member of a 'select' group of trade organisations. There's no
qualification as such required, you can't get this status by training
or taking exams.

--
Chris Green

wrote in message
...
In uk.d-i-y wrote:
There isn't any such thing as "Part P qualification" is there?

OK - Part P exemption for the pedant!

I meant rather that you can't "qualify" for it, the only way to be
able to 'self certify' which is what I assume is meant is to be a
member of a 'select' group of trade organisations. There's no
qualification as such required, you can't get this status by training
or taking exams.

--
Chris Green

The way to self certify is by qualifying to be accepted a registered
competent person, for which you must meet certain criteria of training,
competence and assessed ability.

The message
from "Stephen" contains these words:

The way to self certify is by qualifying to be accepted a registered
competent person, for which you must meet certain criteria of training,
competence and assessed ability.

So how do electricians do it?

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

"Guy King" wrote in message
...
The message
from "Stephen" contains these words:

The way to self certify is by qualifying to be accepted a registered
competent person, for which you must meet certain criteria of training,
competence and assessed ability.

So how do electricians do it?


Do you want to know in general or do you have a specific enquiry?

In uk.d-i-y Stephen wrote:

wrote in message
...
In uk.d-i-y wrote:
There isn't any such thing as "Part P qualification" is there?

OK - Part P exemption for the pedant!

I meant rather that you can't "qualify" for it, the only way to be
able to 'self certify' which is what I assume is meant is to be a
member of a 'select' group of trade organisations. There's no
qualification as such required, you can't get this status by training
or taking exams.


The way to self certify is by qualifying to be accepted a registered
competent person, for which you must meet certain criteria of training,
competence and assessed ability.

Not as I (and just about everyone else here) understands it, the only
people who can self certify are members of NICEIC or a couple of
other trade bodies.

--
Chris Green

Bright Spark wrote:
All but very minor electrical works now has to be notified, (since
January 2005) to Building Control (Building Regulations Part P). The

Not true I'm afraid, this only covers domestic (household) electrical work
but I've worked on pubs, cinemas and nightclubs with no problems at all and
I'm not even an electrician, more to the point, no one asked nor cared.

Stephen wrote:
I have had a lot of questions from people asking how to become a qualified
electrician (England and Wales), so I am putting on a series of one day
events to explain how you can do it.

http://www.magna.demon.co.uk/electri...s_training.htm

I am currently trading very successfully as an electrician. I am fully
qualified registered and legal, which I did without and further training,
simply by applying what I already knew from previous jobs. The trick is
knowing how to comply with all the convoluted bureaucracy.

Regards

Stephen
If "currently trading very successfully as an electrician" how do you
have time to teach? Those who can do, those who can't teach.

cheers
Jacob

In article . com,
normanwisdom wrote:
If "currently trading very successfully as an electrician" how do you
have time to teach? Those who can do, those who can't teach.

The cost is 120 quid a day, so with a few pupils he'd be quids in...

--
*Procrastination is the art of keeping up with yesterday.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article . com,
writes

normanwisdom wrote:
If "currently trading very successfully as an electrician" how do you
have time to teach? Those who can do,
those who can't teach.

Dont'cha mean those who can't do run the bl**dy country


And those who can't teach work for OFSTED.

MBQ


--
Tony Sayer

wrote in message
ups.com...

normanwisdom wrote:
If "currently trading very successfully as an electrician" how do you
have time to teach? Those who can do, those who can't teach.

And those who can't teach work for OFSTED.

MBQ


Simple I get more money for teaching. Those who can and can teach are in
demand

On 10 Aug 2006 13:10:19 -0700, "normanwisdom"
wrote:


Stephen wrote:
I have had a lot of questions from people asking how to become a qualified
electrician (England and Wales), so I am putting on a series of one day
events to explain how you can do it.

http://www.magna.demon.co.uk/electri...s_training.htm

I am currently trading very successfully as an electrician. I am fully
qualified registered and legal, which I did without and further training,
simply by applying what I already knew from previous jobs. The trick is
knowing how to comply with all the convoluted bureaucracy.

Regards

Stephen
If "currently trading very successfully as an electrician" how do you
have time to teach? Those who can do, those who can't teach.

cheers
Jacob
I think that the point is that you can make more money giving courses
than in actually doing the thing!

Maris

On 11 Aug 2006 02:15:20 -0700, wrote:


normanwisdom wrote:
If "currently trading very successfully as an electrician" how do you
have time to teach? Those who can do, those who can't teach.

And those who can't teach work for OFSTED.

A bigger bunch of morons is hard to imagine.

Maris



MBQ

In message , Stephen
writes

The IET recommend a test when the house is sold


What constitutes a "test"? Do testers just go around the property
looking at visible wiring and visible electrical fittings, or do they
dig deeper?

--
Ian

In message , news
writes
In message , Stephen
writes

The IET recommend a test when the house is sold


What constitutes a "test"? Do testers just go around the property
looking at visible wiring and visible electrical fittings, or do they
dig deeper?

I don't know what they are meant to do, but in my previous experience,
they do all you say and take off a sample of outlet sockets/switch
plates etc. One "tester" also asked for a copy of the wiring diagram
for the property, which I had neatly drawn in a cad program. All mine
have "passed", don't know what happens if one "fails". I should have
another test coming up in about 3-4 weeks - if you can wait that long,
I'll let you know.
--
Alan

"Stephen" wrote in message
...

"Bright Spark" wrote in message
...
All but very minor electrical works now has to be notified, (since
January
2005) to Building Control (Building Regulations Part P). The installation
must be installed or tested and certified by a registered 'Competent
Person'. Becoming a registered competent person is not cheap. I have
worked
in the construction industry as an electrician, electrical designer,
contracts / project manager for forty years plus, on all manner of
electrical installations and even I would not be classed as a competent
person unless I became registered.

You consider you can train / teach 'many' people, providing them with
enough
knowledge, to become a qualified electrician, in one day, when it took
me,
and many like me, a five year apprenticeship to become qualified. I think
not.


I agree, it's not my intention to train people to be competent in one day.
What I am offering is a comprehensive, impartial guide of everything you
need to know to comply with the requirements. Some will need further
training and experience some will not.

A five year apprenticeship is one method, but in not necessary.

Stephen



There seems to be some confusion with regard to this subject. Yes Part P
appears to be specific to domestic installations

The following is an extract from the Kingston Councils web site.

..........From 1 January 2005 all electrical work in dwellings will
need to comply with Building Regulation 'Part P' requirements and be
carried out by persons who are competent to do the work.

Small jobs such as replacing a socket-outlet or a light
switch on an existing circuit will not need to be notified to a building
control body (although there will be some exceptions for
high risk areas such as kitchens and bathrooms).

All work that involves adding a new circuit to a dwelling
will need to be either notified to building control, who will then inspect
the work, or carried out by a competent person who
is registered with a Part P Self-Certification Scheme.

Persons registered with Part P Self-Certification Schemes
will be fully qualified electrical contractors with the ability to
thoroughly check a circuit for safety and be aware
of other Building Regulation requirements that may impact on any particular
installation. They will be able to issue Building
Regulations Certificates of compliance and will have to give those details
to the relevant Local Authority.

Most jobs carried out by DIYers will be small jobs that do
not need to be notified to building control, but they should still be
checked by a competent electrician..............

Yes anybody can do electrical work in a house (dwelling) but it will need to
be notified to Building Control and it will need to be tested and verified
in accordance with BS 7671. A test / completion certificate will also need
to be issued in accordance with BS 7671.

A number of organisations run 'Competent Person, schemes including the ECA.
The cost is between £400 to £500 and it appears that it is necessary to
re-register every year. The requirement is to have a body of work inspected
and I guess that technical questions will be asked as well. It apparently
takes about half a day to complete the course.

If the work is carried out by an electrician that is not registered,
Building Control may inspect it but this will cost. It is also possible for
a 'Competent Person' to be employed to do the test and inspection, but again
this will cost. My guess is this will cost at least £100.00 or more.

"Stephen Biddle" wrote:

"Alan" wrote in message
.. .
In message , news
writes
In message , Stephen
writes

The IET recommend a test when the house is sold

.... or changes occupier. As well as at set intervals depending on the
nature of the property.

As someone who makes a living out of testing and inspection, let me
try and undo a few misunderstandings here.

What constitutes a "test"? Do testers just go around the property looking
at visible wiring and visible electrical fittings, or do they dig deeper?

I don't know what they are meant to do, but in my previous experience,
they do all you say and take off a sample of outlet sockets/switch plates
etc. One "tester" also asked for a copy of the wiring diagram for the
property, which I had neatly drawn in a cad program. All mine have
"passed", don't know what happens if one "fails". I should have another
test coming up in about 3-4 weeks - if you can wait that long, I'll let
you know.

It is standard practice to request all the documentation for an
installation, including wiring diagrams, before starting an
inspection. Quite often this documentation does not exist and it is
then necessary to carry out a survey of the installation before
inspection and testing can begin.

The practice of sampling, as described above, is only recommended
where full documentation exists and is up to date. In such a case it
is usual to sample not less that 10% of the installation.

Where no documentation exists, the results deviate significantly from
previous results or problems with the installation are found, then a
full inspection of the installation would normally be carried out.

Sometimes an inspector will determine that part of the installation is
not in a safe condition to be tested. In that case the more detailed
tests will not be carried out, and the reason why they were not done
will be detailed in the report instead.

Sometimes part of an installation cannot be isolated, in such a case
the inspector will list these limitations in the section of the report
provided. In extreme cases the limitations may restrict the report to
merely what can be seen without any testing or dismantling of the
installation.

If you are handed a Periodic Inspection Report (PIR) then make sure
you read this part ("Extent and Limitations of the Inspection")
carefully.

Full details of what is inspected, tested and reported on, can be
found in Guidance Note 3 for the IEE Wiring Regulations (Inspection
and Testing).

The test is "Periodic Inspection" defined in BS7671, like an MOT, most
properties fail on first inpection but the faults are usually minor, unless
some substandard work has been done in the mean time.

Technically there is no such thing as a "Periodic Inspection Test" the
correct title is "Periodic Inspection Report for an Electrical
Installation". This, as its name suggests, it is a report compiled by
a competent person, on the state of an electrical installation at the
time it was inspected.

That is where the similarity with an MOT ends.

It is usual for the person carrying out the report to have passed City
and Guilds 2391 (Inspection and Testing) together with City and Guilds
2381 (16th Edition Wiring Regulations). That person, or the company
they work for, may also be a member of one or more trade bodies (such
as NICEIC) but it is not compulsory.

The latest advice I have seen is that the inspection and testing of
domestic installations does not require you to be able to self certify
for "Building Regulations Part P" purposes, but that advice does seem
to change weekly. (Don't get me started on Part P.)

There is no concept of a "passed" or "failed" PIR. At the end of the
report the inspector is required to provide a list of observations and
recommendations (ranked according to the remedial action recommended),
and then to finally state whether or not the general condition of the
installation is, in their opinion, "satisfactory" or "unsatisfactory".

What the person receiving the report does with it is not the concern
of the inspector.

If that person, having been told that the condition of the
installation is unsatisfactory, or even unsafe, chooses to ignore the
PIR, then they are quite free to do so.

If however the PIR has been requested on behalf of, say, an insurance
company, then that company may well insist that any faults and issues
listed are corrected and the installation then reassessed.

Reports can always be issued - even for the most dangerous of
installations and anybody who says they cannot give you a report
"because..." and then touts for the repair work, should be treated
with an element of suspicion. If in doubt get a second opinion.

blatant plug bias="high"
What you really need is somebody that specialises in inspection and
testing, rather than a general contractor.
/blatant plug

The person signing the report is deemed to be legally responsible for
their opinion, so make sure they sign it. Nobody can sign a PIR unless
they actually carried out the inspection and testing.

John
--
John White,
Electrical Contractor

In article ,
"Bright Spark" writes:
If the work is carried out by an electrician that is not registered,
Building Control may inspect it but this will cost. It is also possible for
a 'Competent Person' to be employed to do the test and inspection, but again
this will cost. My guess is this will cost at least £100.00 or more.

Part P does not allow you to use a 'Competent Person' to inspect
work carried out by anyone not registered under Part P as a means
of complying with Part P. It never did allow this, but some
councils were wrongly thinking that it did, so it was reissued
in April to make this clearer. Only the council may perform
inspections, although they may subcontract that to anyone they
like (does not need to be an electrician registered under Part P,
and can even be the DIY installer themselves if the council
believes they are sufficiently compitent). The local council is
responsible for paying for the inspection -- again it always was,
but some were charging clients for it, and this has been explicitly
forbidden in the reissued Part P.

--
Andrew Gabriel

"John White" wrote in message
...

John
--
John White,
Electrical Contractor

A well written piece - my compliments to you John