Any ideas? Bentone electro oil Inter10 pl10/4 pump/burner assembly
This symptom doesn't seem to be listed anywhere. (commonly seems to be
cutting out within 30 secs or so). The tank filter has not been changed
in 18 years(!!) but when fitting a new plastic tank 5 years back paper
filter looked perfectly clean and no sediment in botttom of glass bowl
so I left as was.( probably rinsed it in fuel)
Photocell is clean, fuel is flowing ( not sure if fast enough, firing
rate stated as 40ml/minute and would certainly seem to easily match
that) .
Some sediment appeared in the first jamjar of oil after disconnecting
flexihose at boiler. 2nd jamjar seems to be clear. I assume this may
have been debris from the hose perhaps although it was a browny colour
and looked like tiny bits of chipboard !! No evidence of water or air
in these samples.
My user notes for the boiler state that there is an internal filter for
the pump but I have no idea where this might be. I guess I should just
change the tank paper filter but access is very difficult in the new
tanks position so if anyone can help in the pump filters location and
what to undo to look at the oil pump itself I'd be very grateful,
thanks
PS The nozzle is original I think and would like to replace. How do I
establish which danfoss series ( ie H,EH, S,ES orB) nozzle I need, I
found the size specification somewhere but not to hand at the moment.

wrote in message
oups.com...
Any ideas? Bentone electro oil Inter10 pl10/4 pump/burner assembly
This symptom doesn't seem to be listed anywhere. (commonly seems to be
cutting out within 30 secs or so). The tank filter has not been changed
in 18 years(!!) but when fitting a new plastic tank 5 years back paper
filter looked perfectly clean and no sediment in botttom of glass bowl
so I left as was.( probably rinsed it in fuel)
Photocell is clean, fuel is flowing ( not sure if fast enough, firing
rate stated as 40ml/minute and would certainly seem to easily match
that) .
Some sediment appeared in the first jamjar of oil after disconnecting
flexihose at boiler. 2nd jamjar seems to be clear. I assume this may
have been debris from the hose perhaps although it was a browny colour
and looked like tiny bits of chipboard !! No evidence of water or air
in these samples.

Good start.

My user notes for the boiler state that there is an internal filter for
the pump but I have no idea where this might be. I guess I should just
change the tank paper filter but access is very difficult in the new
tanks position so if anyone can help in the pump filters location and
what to undo to look at the oil pump itself I'd be very grateful,
thanks

The usual pump is a Danfoss but over the last five years or so there have
been some model changes. Current version is BFP21L3. Whatever its never a
wise procedure to open up the pump as invariably they don't go back together
right.
(Unless you are astoundingly lucky)

PS The nozzle is original I think and would like to replace. How do I
establish which danfoss series ( ie H,EH, S,ES orB) nozzle I need, I
found the size specification somewhere but not to hand at the moment.

The easy way is to take a nylon pan scourer to the flats of the nut of the
nozzle. The details are embossed into them and they can be read when cleaned
off. In the absence of other data I suggest an 80 degree H.
If you have a Danfoss MSLA type pump it will be a distinct probability given
the symptoms. This is obsolete and the BFP version is its current
replacement. You WILL need a pressure gauge to set it up afterwards and you
will need an analyser kit to set up a clean burn. I suggest you may need a
pro who has the right kit to do this job properly, if you cannot find and
independant one locally ask your fuel supplier if they can help.
The photocell may be clean but it could have degraded and may not be
reliably registering the flame, also a possibility is a problem with the
sequence control box.

Hi John, I noticed you seem to be the resident expert on oil boiler
issues! :-) Your name was on many of the posts I found whilst searching
for information prior to my post. Regarding pressure check and gas
analysis post nozzle replacement, is this only if I fit a different
spec nozzle? If I fit an identical spec replacement shouldn't the
pressure and air valve settings be the same?.I feel that the settings
have remained the same ever since original commisioning on installation
of this boiler. I used a maintenance chap for an annual call for first
3 or 4 years and not once did I recall see him making any measurements.
As all that happened was a vacumming out and visual inspection of the
burner I decided to carry out the cleaning task myself ever since. Its
been totally reliable unitl now. ( Fuel economy has remained remarkably
consistant over all 19 years so I've assumed the settings could not
have altered to much away from the ideal if at all) Thanks for your
sugestions re photocell and control box I'm going to start by replacing
the hose, external filter and nozzle and would appreciate your reponse
to leaving the settings alone if I use an identical nozzle.

wrote in message
oups.com...
Hi John, I noticed you seem to be the resident expert on oil boiler
issues! :-) Your name was on many of the posts I found whilst searching
for information prior to my post. Regarding pressure check and gas
analysis post nozzle replacement, is this only if I fit a different
spec nozzle? If I fit an identical spec replacement shouldn't the
pressure and air valve settings be the same?

The tests confirm that the combustion conditions are and remain correct.
These are affected by the factors you mention but also to a greater or
lesser degree by build up of dirt on the fan blades, dust deposits inside
the volute casing and air ports, changes to the flue "suction" for
conventional flue boilers etc. Without testing you cannot have the
confidence that things are the same. Oil pumps do degrade and lose delivery
pressure or it becomes unstable which causes poor atomisation of the fuel
through the nozzle. Incidentally nozzles do wear or erode and ideally should
be replaced at least every couple of years.

I feel that the settings
have remained the same ever since original commisioning on installation
of this boiler. I used a maintenance chap for an annual call for first
3 or 4 years and not once did I recall see him making any measurements.

He "SHOULD" have done and recorded the combustion results on the job
report/history record card which should be kept with the boiler.

As all that happened was a vacuuming out and visual inspection of the
burner I decided to carry out the cleaning task myself ever since. Its
been totally reliable unitl now. ( Fuel economy has remained remarkably
consistant over all 19 years so I've assumed the settings could not
have altered to much away from the ideal if at all) Thanks for your
sugestions re photocell and control box I'm going to start by replacing
the hose, external filter and nozzle and would appreciate your reponse
to leaving the settings alone if I use an identical nozzle.

The hose is rubber under the braid and replacement is advised at least every
3 to 5 years as it suffers embrittlement.
BTW have you a firestop valve which has shut but not absolutely tight hence
allowing the oil pump to fill but not sufficient to keep the burner running
passes on startup. Also worth thinking about is some filters are mounted
"wrong way round" in the flow so the muck they stop is inside the cartidge
not visible on the outside - is this the case with yours perhaps? There is
usually an arrow on the body.

Clean the fan and airways but if you ensure the damper settings etc are kept
as is then you may get away with it.

It concerns me that service men are running around without analysers/Fyrite
kits. Their competence is immediately called into question.

Did not see any gasket at time of
removal, just a large o ring which remained in place on the remaining
part of the pump body.Connected up and oh dear, leaking badly from
pump, not sure exaclty where from.

Martin, you may just have to tourque the bolts a little more.......If
the bolts made a 'snap' sound when loosening, that means there was a
lot of tourque applied to tighten them.

Or check, the o-ring may be pinched..try loosening the bolts and
retighting.....being very carefull on the retighting.

Don't worry about the tech advice.......EH is just an upgrade from H
for your unit.
They still supply H because that's what they used originally for your
uint when first made, now they have millions laying around for
sale..........then later found out the EH would give a better burn.

I gotta go.....work the nite shift here.....off at 4:30am here......I'm
guessing about 9:30, 10am your time I'll check back......Sky

Martin are you on holiday?........If not your doing a heck of a job
workin both ends of this.....Sky

"sky" wrote in message
oups.com...
Martin sounds like your in good hands with John.

My concern was any difference in the way the burner systems work in the
UK in comparision to ours here in the USA, especialy after seeing how
the burner units were built.

John, do you think the braided hose could collapse if it was too old?,
Thus, starving the burner.

The typical failure is fuel leakage "out" of the hose due to positive
internal pressure. However with a suction lift situation it is sometimes
found that the cracked rubber allows air to leak "in" to the tube. This
upsets the pump delivery pressure and causes poor combustion. The rubber
becomes hard and brittle thus collapse is not typical, however there are
always odd situations where other things can happen.

wrote in message
oups.com...

sky wrote:
Martin sounds like your in good hands with John.

My concern was any difference in the way the burner systems work in the
UK in comparision to ours here in the USA, especialy after seeing how
the burner units were built.

John, do you think the braided hose could collapse if it was too old?,
Thus, starving the burner.

An update on progress, replaced nozzle,tank filter and hose to pump.
Problem!! ----Flow rate out of open hose was now just a dribble. it
turned out there was masses more of the brown debris in the pipe run
from tank to boiler. ( I wonder if this was the paper filter
disintegrating although not visible in the bowl).As it was there before
not sure why the flow rate went right down. I think flow rate is now
back to as before ( blew through from disconnected pipe at tank end
and then mucho jamjars of purging. (got debris to flow by removing hose
at boiler which allowed for lower drain off point ). After seeing all
this crud I felt sure the poump strainer must have plenty in it. I took
the plunge and undid the 2 allenbolts and removed the pump assembly.
(MSLAO32) The circular strainer gauze was visible and was covered in
crud. Cleaned up and reassembled. Did not see any gasket at time of
removal, just a large o ring which remained in place on the remaining
part of the pump body. Connected up and oh dear, leaking badly from
pump, not sure exaclty where from. I recieved a number of rubber
gaskets with my paper filter but felt the originals were fine and
bedded down nicely.I also found one gasket which MIGHT have dropped of
the pump body at the time of removal approx 6cms in diameter, hard to
see where this might fit though. So my Q is what seals the pump where
it comes apart? Should there be a removable gasket or the O ring? TIA

The MSLA is old and I can't recall exactly offhand but I think it was simply
an o-ring. The failure to seal again is typical hence my initial comment
about opening the pump not being advised


PS Trianco tech told me my nozzle would be a 0.6 80EH , it turned out
to be an 0.6 80H. trianco tech said the direct replacment would not be
an issue and the EH was a "tighter tolerance" component. If thats the
case how come they still supply plain H's then? Just confused ( and a
bit skeptical about tech support comments)

The difference is mostly marketing hype. Trianco seem to have a ready supply
of EHs but the distribution suppliers never seem to stock both EH and H
options. H is the normal stock. Don't worry about it the H will be fine.

Thanks John,
My experience has been strictly gravity fed residential, where the only
pressure is atmospheric.

martin.........hope everything is okay

Thanks again to John, Sky and any other contributors. As yesterday was
the first non wet day for about a fortnight I took a break (!) and
worked on my car ( replacing brake lines for MOT. (govt test). Just
come back to report progress. I seem to have stopped the pump leak,
Hurray! Removed reseated and retightened (more). However burner not
firing at all (remember it did fine before my changes). Q? I've bled
through the bleed screw on the pump which is also the pressure check
take off point. Small amount of air cleared but I'm puzzled at what
seems an innapropriate flow rate.I've fitted a plastic pipe and bottle
a la brake bleed on a car and am now bleeding with the fan pump etc in
action (probably how it should be done anyway, was concerned about
large jets of oil spewing into the boiler casing before I found the
plastic pipe)
If the pump is specced to 120psi for this model then I would expect it
to be charging out. Instead its filled about a litre in about 10 or
more burner start attempts, ie about 15 secs before lockout occurs.
What should I be expecting?
I wondered whether i had failed to engage the fan splines fitting with
the pump but I would assume that I 'd see no pumping effects at all if
not correct . I re-checked the electrode gap to see if I'd knoocked it
but seems the same as before, bit less than spec at 3mm vs 4mm in
commisoning leaflket that came with boiler. Only other thought is the
new jet appeared to have a shinybrass colour fine guaze around its
base. Until I saw it was guaze I thought it was a cover as the old
(20yrs remember) looked different, It has a smaller filter but I'm just
clutchingat anything at ther moment . I always feel in these
corcumstances that it willbe something simple that as a first time I'm
overlooking. So a request for any final comments before I call up the
repair man!! :-)

wrote in message
oups.com...
Thanks again to John, Sky and any other contributors. As yesterday was
the first non wet day for about a fortnight I took a break (!) and
worked on my car ( replacing brake lines for MOT. (govt test). Just
come back to report progress. I seem to have stopped the pump leak,
Hurray! Removed reseated and retightened (more). However burner not
firing at all (remember it did fine before my changes). Q? I've bled
through the bleed screw on the pump which is also the pressure check
take off point. Small amount of air cleared but I'm puzzled at what
seems an innapropriate flow rate.I've fitted a plastic pipe and bottle
a la brake bleed on a car and am now bleeding with the fan pump etc in
action (probably how it should be done anyway, was concerned about
large jets of oil spewing into the boiler casing before I found the
plastic pipe)
If the pump is specced to 120psi for this model then I would expect it
to be charging out. Instead its filled about a litre in about 10 or
more burner start attempts, ie about 15 secs before lockout occurs.
What should I be expecting?

The pump is a gear pump which is fairly limited in its delivery volume/time
ability. I wouldn't expect a lot different volume from what you describe.
The pressure will be low until there is some resistance to the flow. Bear in
mind the pressure is at a flow of around 0.6 USGPH not a litre in fifteen
seconds.


I wondered whether i had failed to engage the fan splines fitting with
the pump but I would assume that I 'd see no pumping effects at all if
not correct . I re-checked the electrode gap to see if I'd knoocked it
but seems the same as before, bit less than spec at 3mm vs 4mm in
commisoning leaflket that came with boiler. Only other thought is the
new jet appeared to have a shinybrass colour fine guaze around its
base. Until I saw it was guaze I thought it was a cover as the old
(20yrs remember) looked different, It has a smaller filter but I'm just

Danfoss Nozzles have an integral sintered bronze strainer which should not
be disturbed
..
clutchingat anything at ther moment . I always feel in these
corcumstances that it willbe something simple that as a first time I'm
overlooking. So a request for any final comments before I call up the
repair man!! :-)


If the pump is purged and spinning then the nozzle3 should produce a fine
atomised spray, if the drive is not present then either the drive couplings
and shaft are not engaging and transmitting motion to the pumpshaft or the
pump internal drive pin is not present and intact.
You may still have a problem with the photocell as a short circuit cell can
lead the control to think there is a flame before there should be. This
leads to no power being applied to the solenoid and the unit goes to false
light lockout. Check this by open circuiting the photocell when the burner
should ignite but go to lockout AFTER a flame is established.

Thanks John,
What method should I use to view the nozzle spray? Taking the back
plate off behind the nozzle its just to dark to see anything even with
a light shining down there, also the HT leaqds mask the view. Is it
safe to do it with the burner assembly out of the boiler? The thought
of it potentially igniting and a 2 foot flame bursting into the
kithchen is scary! Can you disable the current to the electrodes?

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember saying
something like:

Thanks John,
What method should I use to view the nozzle spray? Taking the back
plate off behind the nozzle its just to dark to see anything even with
a light shining down there, also the HT leaqds mask the view. Is it
safe to do it with the burner assembly out of the boiler? The thought
of it potentially igniting and a 2 foot flame bursting into the
kithchen is scary! Can you disable the current to the electrodes?

Much safer to build a burner stand and do it outdoors. Arrange a small
fuel supply and run a power lead.

If you want to disable the ignition, trace back the feed wires from the
ignition transformer and disconnect them from the control box - I'm
assuming you have the type with discrete control box, ign tx.
--

Dave

"Grimly Curmudgeon" wrote in message
...
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember saying
something like:

Thanks John,
What method should I use to view the nozzle spray? Taking the back
plate off behind the nozzle its just to dark to see anything even with
a light shining down there, also the HT leaqds mask the view. Is it
safe to do it with the burner assembly out of the boiler? The thought
of it potentially igniting and a 2 foot flame bursting into the
kithchen is scary! Can you disable the current to the electrodes?

Much safer to build a burner stand and do it outdoors. Arrange a small
fuel supply and run a power lead.

If you want to disable the ignition, trace back the feed wires from the
ignition transformer and disconnect them from the control box - I'm
assuming you have the type with discrete control box, ign tx.

I agree its better to try these sort of things out of doors but
unfortunately the daylight will cause the unit to go to false light lockout
(you could do it after darkg). I have in the past left the burner in situ
and removed the combustion chamber access plate and baffles which allows you
to see what is going on. Note that you should have one hand on the power so
you can kill the unit instantly also that unless you have a conventional
flue unit there is no flue draw to remove the flue gases.
Very much a do as I say not as I do situation! Hence not to be advised to
others.

Wouldn't it be safer if you attached an ohm meter to the photocell?

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "sky" saying
something like:

Wouldn't it be safer if you attached an ohm meter to the photocell?

Where's the fun in that?
--

Dave

I was standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona, It was such a fine sight
to see, It was Grimly, My Lord..... in a flat bed Ford...Slowin' down
to take a look at me.......

I was thinkin' what's he up to?


Well ...At least ya wouldn't hav ta wait till dark

Steve

sky wrote:
I was standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona, It was such a fine sight
to see, It was Grimly, My Lord..... in a flat bed Ford...Slowin' down
to take a look at me.......

I was thinkin' what's he up to?


Well ...At least ya wouldn't hav ta wait till dark

Steve

Hi all ------ I'm back! (But in no way to I resemble Arnold S. )

I said I was going to call the repair man but I'm just no good at
giving up!!
Needed a break from it for a few days but back with another shot.
Nothing at all from the burner nozzle. (Disconnected HT leads and
started up in the kitchen). Checked the outlet form the pump, there's a
small connecting pipe and absolutely zero. One think I'm noticing is
that the pump assembly can move 5-10 degrees around its shaft axis, ie
I can waggle it a bit. Now I dont seem to recall this before
particularly when tightening the fuel pipe to this assembly.Have I
broken something or failed to engage something when I removed and
replaced the pump cover by undoing the 2 allen bolts to acceesss the
fuel strainer? (Remember it leaked originally after first removal and
so i removed replaced and retightened---more this time and no leakage.)
Any ideas before I really do have to find a decent repair man? (any
contacts welcome who would cover the Hampshire berkshire border area in
UK) Cheers Martin

PS I recognise the eagles lyrics (sky) but is the reference to the
desert a song or just one of those repply sigs some folks have?)

No, it shouldn't waggle. I don't think you broke anything....But
something isn't engaged. Check:
http://heating.danfoss.com/PCM/Prese...B-A21018FB2152

See if you can find your pump, click on the documentation tab, then,
click on one of the red arrows to open the menu.....I did BFP 10/11 Try
handbookservice manual...Other listings will show diagrams and parts of pumps that may help to figure out what happened


PS I recognise the eagles lyrics (sky) but is the reference to the
desert a song or just one of those repply sigs some folks have?)

As far as I know that's just Grimly's sig....But it was just the way it
struck me, that brought out the eagles verse.........

One that I came up with.......The only thing faster than light is your
mind......sky

sky wrote:
No, it shouldn't waggle. I don't think you broke anything....But
something isn't engaged. Check:
http://heating.danfoss.com/PCM/Prese...B-A21018FB2152

See if you can find your pump, click on the documentation tab, then,
click on one of the red arrows to open the menu.....I did BFP 10/11 Try
handbookservice manual...Other listings will show diagrams and parts of pumps that may help to figure out what happened


PS I recognise the eagles lyrics (sky) but is the reference to the
desert a song or just one of those repply sigs some folks have?)

As far as I know that's just Grimly's sig....But it was just the way it
struck me, that brought out the eagles verse.........

One that I came up with.......The only thing faster than light is your
mind......sky




thanks, Glad to now I'm not a wrecker! I'll check it out now martin

sky wrote:
No, it shouldn't waggle. I don't think you broke anything....But
something isn't engaged. Check:
http://heating.danfoss.com/PCM/Prese...B-A21018FB2152

See if you can find your pump, click on the documentation tab, then,
click on one of the red arrows to open the menu.....I did BFP 10/11 Try
handbookservice manual...Other listings will show diagrams and parts of pumps that may help to figure out what happened


PS I recognise the eagles lyrics (sky) but is the reference to the
desert a song or just one of those repply sigs some folks have?)

As far as I know that's just Grimly's sig....But it was just the way it
struck me, that brought out the eagles verse.........

One that I came up with.......The only thing faster than light is your
mind......sky


Well, checked out all the diagrams and refs. form Danfoss and read an
informative manual relating to "things worth knowing about oil pumps"
No pics at all of my mlsa pump as its superceded. At least I know the
correct replacement. ( a BFP21 L3 ref 071NO156) Cant see what I may
have done wrong but to me it now looks like the assembly is
completely free to rotate and that perhaps this is by design. The
attaching of the short outlet pipe providing the only positive
location. I'm testing with the assembly out of the boiler and can feel
the pump rotating when fan starts. I seem to be getting a better flow
rate out of the bleed screw but even after about 10 runs ( 11 secs each
before lockout occurs) what comes through my clear plastic pipe seems
full of air mixed with the oil. Loads of bubbles and no differnet form
the first run today. Of most significance is that in spite of the
bleed screw output ( measured as about 33mls in the 11 secs) if i
shut the bleed screw absolutely nothing come out form the output pipe.
I wondered if it being disconnected was allowing air to be sucked in
during the bleed process but even putting a finger over the end made no
difference to the "full of bubbles" scenario. I can post some pictures
of my dismantled pump assembly if anyone thinks it would help( not
used the pic storage sites but I have used a free files storage site.
but I can easily understand if the recopmendation is now to get the
repair man. Disapointing as clearly it seems I may have messed
something up.
martin

John wrote earlier:
If the pump is purged and spinning then the nozzle3 should produce a fine
atomised spray, if the drive is not present then either the drive
couplings
and shaft are not engaging and transmitting motion to the pumpshaft or
the
pump internal drive pin is not present and intact.

Your not letting the pump run low on the feed side, are you? (obvious
question that still needs to be asked)
What are you using for supply to the pump? A five gallon bucket of
heating oil? Is it level or higher than the pump?
think about how the oil tank is in relation to the pump when everything
is up and running. It's usually level or higher than where the furnace
is.

There was also an earlier concern about a pressure regulator, and it
might need adjustment, but I would think that would only come into play
if you changed nozzle size.

sky wrote:
John wrote earlier:
If the pump is purged and spinning then the nozzle3 should produce a fine
atomised spray, if the drive is not present then either the drive
couplings
and shaft are not engaging and transmitting motion to the pumpshaft or
the
pump internal drive pin is not present and intact.

Your not letting the pump run low on the feed side, are you? (obvious
question that still needs to be asked)
What are you using for supply to the pump? A five gallon bucket of
heating oil? Is it level or higher than the pump?
think about how the oil tank is in relation to the pump when everything
is up and running. It's usually level or higher than where the furnace
is.

There was also an earlier concern about a pressure regulator, and it
might need adjustment, but I would think that would only come into play
if you changed nozzle size.


Hi John,
I'm still feeding from the tank outside. ( burner assembly on kitchen
floor propped up to its installed height of about 10") . I did think
about the pressure head however. My tank is at ground level and
currently there is oil to about 10-12" above the ground. I wondered
whether when I Installed this new plastic tank 5 yrs back and bled
everything when it was full this was OK but attempting to bleed and
get everything working with a minimal head was giving the pump a hard
time. I should state that the flow rate via gravity is still at least
what I was seeing out of the pump bleed valve and actually seemed to be
more. ( not sure if (I was seeing this with the pipe lowered somewhat
from its normal attached position on the pump though). So thats the
situatiuon. It ran fine with this set up prior to the initial problem I
reported and has worked fine with the oil level just about 3" above the
ground. When I went for this ground level set up I thought that I
needed a "tiger loop" but my tank supplier stated that the pump was
more than capable of sucking oil even with no head. Of course the pipe
run is another factor and this amounts to approx 14 metres of 10mm
pipe ( just gone and estimated it) Hope this info is useful,

cheers martin ( never like being beaten!!)

wrote:
sky wrote:
John wrote earlier:
If the pump is purged and spinning then the nozzle3 should produce a fine
atomised spray, if the drive is not present then either the drive
couplings
and shaft are not engaging and transmitting motion to the pumpshaft or
the
pump internal drive pin is not present and intact.

Your not letting the pump run low on the feed side, are you? (obvious
question that still needs to be asked)
What are you using for supply to the pump? A five gallon bucket of
heating oil? Is it level or higher than the pump?
think about how the oil tank is in relation to the pump when everything
is up and running. It's usually level or higher than where the furnace
is.

There was also an earlier concern about a pressure regulator, and it
might need adjustment, but I would think that would only come into play
if you changed nozzle size.



Hi John,
I'm still feeding from the tank outside. ( burner assembly on kitchen
floor propped up to its installed height of about 10") . I did think
about the pressure head however. My tank is at ground level and
currently there is oil to about 10-12" above the ground. I wondered
whether when I Installed this new plastic tank 5 yrs back and bled
everything when it was full this was OK but attempting to bleed and
get everything working with a minimal head was giving the pump a hard
time. I should state that the flow rate via gravity is still at least
what I was seeing out of the pump bleed valve and actually seemed to be
more. ( not sure if (I was seeing this with the pipe lowered somewhat
from its normal attached position on the pump though). So thats the
situatiuon. It ran fine with this set up prior to the initial problem I
reported and has worked fine with the oil level just about 3" above the
ground. When I went for this ground level set up I thought that I
needed a "tiger loop" but my tank supplier stated that the pump was
more than capable of sucking oil even with no head. Of course the pipe
run is another factor and this amounts to approx 14 metres of 10mm
pipe ( just gone and estimated it) Hope this info is useful,

cheers martin ( never like being beaten!!)


martin you need another break, that was me that wrote, not John.

As long as you are getting good flow from the tank, the length of run
shouldn't matter.
What concerns me is the waggle you mentioned earlier. It shouldn't do
that.

Something's not meshed or engaged properly....Sure wish I was there!

I see a red door, and I want it painted black.........Sky

martin you need another break, that was me that wrote, not John.


You're right! ( no colours anymore.....................)

I agree it seems strange that the pump body is free to rotate. I may
have to do some further dismantling , not of the actual pump but the
air vent adjusting assembly Thats all thats between it and the fan
housing. It does feel (vibrations) that the pump internals are turning
and even if the outlet pipe is disconnected ie pump body free to
rotate, starting the fan which drives the coupling doesn't cause the
body itself to rotate. ( tiny movement of body only on startup) Just
seems to turn the internal gears which must thus have pretty low
friction. So I guess I'm thinking even if the ability to rotate is
incorrect, if the gears turn internally then pump should pump. Realise
this doesn't help my problem.

I've just had a thought, 20 years ago I had a car which lost all oil
pressure None was being generated and no oil flow,I was stuck and it
puzzled the local techs at the main dealer. Finally head office
(general motors -- it was an opel model came to the rescue.It turned
out to be a stuck internal pressure relief valve, a spring and ball
bearing design. A quick whack of the ball bearing with a drift,
(fortunately easily accessible) solve the issue. Now I know a boiler
pump has a pressure regulating valve--- have you ever come across these
sticking? PS No vehicle or even consumer electronic companies have
true technical support avaialble to the public any more in UK -- a sad
loss!

cheers and sorry for the name mix up, it was your quotation form John
earlier that threw me :-)

wrote in message
ups.com...

sky wrote:
John wrote earlier:
If the pump is purged and spinning then the nozzle3 should produce a
fine
atomised spray, if the drive is not present then either the drive
couplings
and shaft are not engaging and transmitting motion to the pumpshaft or
the
pump internal drive pin is not present and intact.

Your not letting the pump run low on the feed side, are you? (obvious
question that still needs to be asked)
What are you using for supply to the pump? A five gallon bucket of
heating oil? Is it level or higher than the pump?
think about how the oil tank is in relation to the pump when everything
is up and running. It's usually level or higher than where the furnace
is.

There was also an earlier concern about a pressure regulator, and it
might need adjustment, but I would think that would only come into play
if you changed nozzle size.


Hi John,
I'm still feeding from the tank outside. ( burner assembly on kitchen
floor propped up to its installed height of about 10") . I did think
about the pressure head however. My tank is at ground level and
currently there is oil to about 10-12" above the ground. I wondered
whether when I Installed this new plastic tank 5 yrs back and bled
everything when it was full this was OK but attempting to bleed and
get everything working with a minimal head was giving the pump a hard
time. I should state that the flow rate via gravity is still at least
what I was seeing out of the pump bleed valve and actually seemed to be
more. ( not sure if (I was seeing this with the pipe lowered somewhat
from its normal attached position on the pump though). So thats the
situatiuon. It ran fine with this set up prior to the initial problem I
reported and has worked fine with the oil level just about 3" above the
ground. When I went for this ground level set up I thought that I
needed a "tiger loop" but my tank supplier stated that the pump was
more than capable of sucking oil even with no head. Of course the pipe
run is another factor and this amounts to approx 14 metres of 10mm
pipe ( just gone and estimated it) Hope this info is useful,

cheers martin ( never like being beaten!!)


A "good" oil pump should be able to pump without a positive head but there
is always a risk of a worn pump allowing "drain back" and this often showed
up as the unit needing a couple of resets in the morning but once fired
would run on and off all day then refuse to start in the morning. I don't
think you should have this problem but thats what Tiger loops are there
forg
The age of your MSLA pump is against it. I think you would be well advised
to recheck your mechanical drive couplings, check the solenoid is getting
240v to energise it (and has electrical continuity), check the pressure via
the test point, and if these are ok but pressure not there, replace the
pump.
You will need to set the pressure on the new pump and may need to trim the
coupling length. Also make sure you get the right direction of rotation (L
or R - L is commonest)

A "good" oil pump should be able to pump without a positive head but there
is always a risk of a worn pump allowing "drain back" and this often showed
up as the unit needing a couple of resets in the morning but once fired
would run on and off all day then refuse to start in the morning. I don't
think you should have this problem but thats what Tiger loops are there
forg
The age of your MSLA pump is against it. I think you would be well advised
to recheck your mechanical drive couplings, check the solenoid is getting
240v to energise it (and has electrical continuity), check the pressure via
the test point, and if these are ok but pressure not there, replace the
pump.
You will need to set the pressure on the new pump and may need to trim the
coupling length. Also make sure you get the right direction of rotation (L
or R - L is commonest)


Thanks for that John.
What actualy does the solenoid switch? I'm assuming it's triggered from
the photocell? On my pump I'm assuming its the cylindrical black item
with a wire pair traveling back to the control box. it fits via a hole
in the middle over a shaft that emanates from the pump cover and the
shaft connects to nothing more than a metal disc with a sealing O-ring.
Does the solenoid force this disc down on to a lever which cuts the
flow or opens a bypass to pressure generated within the pump? I'm just
not familiar with these details, thanks for any help!
cheers Martin

A "good" oil pump should be able to pump without a positive head but there
is always a risk of a worn pump allowing "drain back" and this often showed
up as the unit needing a couple of resets in the morning but once fired
would run on and off all day then refuse to start in the morning. I don't
think you should have this problem but thats what Tiger loops are there
forg
The age of your MSLA pump is against it. I think you would be well advised
to recheck your mechanical drive couplings, check the solenoid is getting
240v to energise it (and has electrical continuity), check the pressure via
the test point, and if these are ok but pressure not there, replace the
pump.
You will need to set the pressure on the new pump and may need to trim the
coupling length. Also make sure you get the right direction of rotation (L
or R - L is commonest)

Just experimenting whether I can post these image links of the
dismantled pump and casing for info. Dont worry no image larger than
34kb
Martin

Sorry about the apparent duplicates. First 2 shots just to demo the
ability to rotate the pump assembly. Then show how the pump shaft is
located within the fan housing, can just make out a circlip, However
the raised circular area itself rotates, this would I feel need to be
fixed to prevent the pump body rotating HTH martin

martin, my apology on being detained....utterly unavoidable....

In reference to your snapshots:
http://www.image-upload.net/files/30...0%20Z5.4. jpg

The white, geared piece looks a little worn.....in comparison to the
black driveshaft........
Wouldn't this give you pause to consider replacing that part?

If you had to engage the services of a Tradesman, I could surely
understand....Sky

martin, my apology on being detained....utterly unavoidable....

In reference to your snapshots:
http://www.image-upload.net/files/30...0%20Z5.4. jpg

The white, geared piece looks a little worn.....in comparison to the
black driveshaft........
Wouldn't this give you pause to consider replacing that part?

If you had to engage the services of a Tradesman, I could surely
understand....Sky

sky wrote:
martin, my apology on being detained....utterly unavoidable....

In reference to your snapshots:
http://www.image-upload.net/files/30...0%20Z5.4. jpg

The white, geared piece looks a little worn.....in comparison to the
black driveshaft........
Wouldn't this give you pause to consider replacing that part?

If you had to engage the services of a Tradesman, I could surely
understand....Sky

Not sure why this posted twice.

Damm Google.........