Hi all

For those following my efforts with a MagnaClean unit:

Saturday

Used a systematic method for trying to optimise the effectiveness of the
unit.
Turned boiler off.
Blocked vent to header tank (taped a carrot under it!)
Wound pump up to speed 3.
Shut down all rads except 1 and run in that state for 15 mins per rad.

Sunday

On the strength that the sludge is likely to be in the lowest pipe work,
repeated above process on ground floor for the 2 furthest rads from the
pump. ie ran water around the 2 main "legs" of the 22mm mains for about 2
hours each.


Conclusion

Rather obviously, the increased water velocity produced more sludge
deposits.
Average of about 3mm sludge on the magnetic core.


Problems

No way of telling what proportion of sludge/particles have been removed.
Reliant on the flow being able to lift the crud via the water flow up to the
pump/filter.
Even if I drain the system, the drain point is 15mm drain cock on a radiator
feed above floor level (concrete floors) therefore never actually drains the
sub-floor mains.

Questions

In light of the inaccessible mains, will a power flush mobilise more of the
crud due to velocity of flow. ie is there an argument in favour of power
flushing given the piping routes?
Any other suggestions on cleaning methods appreciated.


Phil

On Mon, 15 May 2006 08:55:00 +0100, TheScullster wrote
(in article ):

Hi all

For those following my efforts with a MagnaClean unit:

Saturday

Used a systematic method for trying to optimise the effectiveness of the
unit.
Turned boiler off.
Blocked vent to header tank (taped a carrot under it!)
Wound pump up to speed 3.
Shut down all rads except 1 and run in that state for 15 mins per rad.

Sunday

On the strength that the sludge is likely to be in the lowest pipe work,
repeated above process on ground floor for the 2 furthest rads from the
pump. ie ran water around the 2 main "legs" of the 22mm mains for about 2
hours each.


Conclusion

Rather obviously, the increased water velocity produced more sludge
deposits.
Average of about 3mm sludge on the magnetic core.


Problems

No way of telling what proportion of sludge/particles have been removed.
Reliant on the flow being able to lift the crud via the water flow up to the
pump/filter.
Even if I drain the system, the drain point is 15mm drain cock on a radiator
feed above floor level (concrete floors) therefore never actually drains the
sub-floor mains.

Questions

In light of the inaccessible mains, will a power flush mobilise more of the
crud due to velocity of flow. ie is there an argument in favour of power
flushing given the piping routes?
Any other suggestions on cleaning methods appreciated.


Phil



You could do that or you could use my patented method involving taking
radiators off one at a time and flushing at the radiator valves. This will
certainly clear crud out of the pipes. The point also is that it exits and
is not moved around, only to be deposited elsewhere.

If you were to use that followed by a chemical cleanser, followed by flush
and fill with inhibitor, you wouldn't need the Magnawotsit.

"TheScullster" wrote in message
...
Hi all

For those following my efforts with a MagnaClean unit:

Saturday

Used a systematic method for trying to optimise the effectiveness of the
unit.
Turned boiler off.
Blocked vent to header tank (taped a carrot under it!)
Wound pump up to speed 3.
Shut down all rads except 1 and run in that state for 15 mins per rad.

Sunday

On the strength that the sludge is likely to be in the lowest pipe work,
repeated above process on ground floor for the 2 furthest rads from the
pump. ie ran water around the 2 main "legs" of the 22mm mains for about 2
hours each.


Conclusion

Rather obviously, the increased water velocity produced more sludge
deposits.
Average of about 3mm sludge on the magnetic core.


Problems

No way of telling what proportion of sludge/particles have been removed.
Reliant on the flow being able to lift the crud via the water flow up to
the pump/filter.
Even if I drain the system, the drain point is 15mm drain cock on a
radiator feed above floor level (concrete floors) therefore never actually
drains the sub-floor mains.

Questions

In light of the inaccessible mains, will a power flush mobilise more of
the crud due to velocity of flow. ie is there an argument in favour of
power flushing given the piping routes?
Any other suggestions on cleaning methods appreciated.

Phil

You could put a compression cap over the open vent and use the feed from the
F&E tank to connect a mains hose from the mains pipe feeding the F&E tank.
Then you can open up the drain cock and allow mains water to run through.
You will have to draw out your pipe runs to make sure water does run through
the rad and out the drain cock and not by-pass the rad. Make sure the drain
cock is opened before the mains is turned on as too much pressure may pop a
corroded rad.

Your Magaclean is doing its job.

"Andy Hall" aka Matt wrote in message
...
On Mon, 15 May 2006 08:55:00 +0100, TheScullster wrote
(in article ):

Hi all

For those following my efforts with a MagnaClean unit:

Saturday

Used a systematic method for trying to optimise the effectiveness of the
unit.
Turned boiler off.
Blocked vent to header tank (taped a carrot under it!)
Wound pump up to speed 3.
Shut down all rads except 1 and run in that state for 15 mins per rad.

Sunday

On the strength that the sludge is likely to be in the lowest pipe work,
repeated above process on ground floor for the 2 furthest rads from the
pump. ie ran water around the 2 main "legs" of the 22mm mains for about
2
hours each.


Conclusion

Rather obviously, the increased water velocity produced more sludge
deposits.
Average of about 3mm sludge on the magnetic core.


Problems

No way of telling what proportion of sludge/particles have been removed.
Reliant on the flow being able to lift the crud via the water flow up to
the
pump/filter.
Even if I drain the system, the drain point is 15mm drain cock on a
radiator
feed above floor level (concrete floors) therefore never actually drains
the
sub-floor mains.

Questions

In light of the inaccessible mains, will a power flush mobilise more of
the
crud due to velocity of flow. ie is there an argument in favour of power
flushing given the piping routes?
Any other suggestions on cleaning methods appreciated.


Phil



You could do that or you could use my patented method involving taking
radiators off one at a time and flushing at the radiator valves. This
will
certainly clear crud out of the pipes. The point also is that it exits
and
is not moved around, only to be deposited elsewhere.

If you were to use that followed by a chemical cleanser, followed by flush
and fill with inhibitor, you wouldn't need the Magnawotsit.

Matt, until someone forgets to re-dose the inhibitor in 4 years time and
sludge
starts to build up gain. A Maganaclean will grab the sludge.

On Mon, 15 May 2006 10:56:28 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote
(in article ews.net):


"Andy Hall" aka Matt wrote in message
...
On Mon, 15 May 2006 08:55:00 +0100, TheScullster wrote
(in article ):

Hi all

For those following my efforts with a MagnaClean unit:

Saturday

Used a systematic method for trying to optimise the effectiveness of the
unit.
Turned boiler off.
Blocked vent to header tank (taped a carrot under it!)
Wound pump up to speed 3.
Shut down all rads except 1 and run in that state for 15 mins per rad.

Sunday

On the strength that the sludge is likely to be in the lowest pipe work,
repeated above process on ground floor for the 2 furthest rads from the
pump. ie ran water around the 2 main "legs" of the 22mm mains for about
2
hours each.


Conclusion

Rather obviously, the increased water velocity produced more sludge
deposits.
Average of about 3mm sludge on the magnetic core.


Problems

No way of telling what proportion of sludge/particles have been removed.
Reliant on the flow being able to lift the crud via the water flow up to
the
pump/filter.
Even if I drain the system, the drain point is 15mm drain cock on a
radiator
feed above floor level (concrete floors) therefore never actually drains
the
sub-floor mains.

Questions

In light of the inaccessible mains, will a power flush mobilise more of
the
crud due to velocity of flow. ie is there an argument in favour of power
flushing given the piping routes?
Any other suggestions on cleaning methods appreciated.


Phil



You could do that or you could use my patented method involving taking
radiators off one at a time and flushing at the radiator valves. This
will
certainly clear crud out of the pipes. The point also is that it exits
and
is not moved around, only to be deposited elsewhere.

If you were to use that followed by a chemical cleanser, followed by flush
and fill with inhibitor, you wouldn't need the Magnawotsit.

Matt, until someone forgets to re-dose the inhibitor in 4 years time and
sludge
starts to build up gain. A Maganaclean will grab the sludge.


We've had this conversation before.

The correct approach is prevention, not cure.

--

Andy

"Andy Hall" aka Matt wrote in message
...
On Mon, 15 May 2006 10:56:28 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote
(in article ews.net):


"Andy Hall" aka Matt wrote in message
...
On Mon, 15 May 2006 08:55:00 +0100, TheScullster wrote
(in article ):

Hi all

For those following my efforts with a MagnaClean unit:

Saturday

Used a systematic method for trying to optimise the effectiveness of
the
unit.
Turned boiler off.
Blocked vent to header tank (taped a carrot under it!)
Wound pump up to speed 3.
Shut down all rads except 1 and run in that state for 15 mins per rad.

Sunday

On the strength that the sludge is likely to be in the lowest pipe
work,
repeated above process on ground floor for the 2 furthest rads from the
pump. ie ran water around the 2 main "legs" of the 22mm mains for
about
2
hours each.


Conclusion

Rather obviously, the increased water velocity produced more sludge
deposits.
Average of about 3mm sludge on the magnetic core.


Problems

No way of telling what proportion of sludge/particles have been
removed.
Reliant on the flow being able to lift the crud via the water flow up
to
the
pump/filter.
Even if I drain the system, the drain point is 15mm drain cock on a
radiator
feed above floor level (concrete floors) therefore never actually
drains
the
sub-floor mains.

Questions

In light of the inaccessible mains, will a power flush mobilise more of
the
crud due to velocity of flow. ie is there an argument in favour of
power
flushing given the piping routes?
Any other suggestions on cleaning methods appreciated.


Phil



You could do that or you could use my patented method involving taking
radiators off one at a time and flushing at the radiator valves. This
will
certainly clear crud out of the pipes. The point also is that it exits
and
is not moved around, only to be deposited elsewhere.

If you were to use that followed by a chemical cleanser, followed by
flush
and fill with inhibitor, you wouldn't need the Magnawotsit.

Matt, until someone forgets to re-dose the inhibitor in 4 years time and
sludge
starts to build up gain. A Maganaclean will grab the sludge.


We've had this conversation before.

Matt, I know, and even then you never understood either.

Andy Hall wrote:
We've had this conversation before.
The correct approach is prevention, not cure.

Absolutely.
Getting involved in trying to rectify the problems caused by neglect of
chemical water treatment on any heating system and you rapidly learn
the meaning of the phrase "false economy".

Sadly applicable in many of the UK's public institutions where short
term penny pinching by ignorant cretins in sharp suits has caused
billions of pounds of irrepairable damage.

Doctor Drivel wrote:

Make sure the drain
cock is opened before the mains is turned on as too much pressure may pop a
corroded rad.

Or put a pressure reducing valve ( set to say 1 or 1.5 bar) on the
hose connection so that you can't over-pressurize the heating system if
something blocks the drain cock. I much prefer this, but I've
accumulated a few pressure reducing valves.

You can also get chemical additives called, or containing, flocculants
which, as it was explained to me, coat the sediment particles and make
it more likely that they will be entrained by the water flow and so
collect in a filter. Wikipedia explains them thus;

" Flocculants, or flocculating agents, are chemicals that are used to
promote flocculation by causing colloids and other suspended particles
in liquids to aggregate, forming a floc. Flocculants are used in water
treatment processes to improve the sedimentation or filterability of
small particles. For example, a flocculant may be used in swimming pool
or drinking water filtration to aid removal of microscopic particles
which would otherwise cause the water to be cloudy and which would be
difficult or impossible to remove by filtration alone."

I think Fernox do something, or else the power flushing chemical
suppliers. There's a danger of shifting the sediment from one place
(pipes) to another where they're much more harmful (boiler).

"Andy Hall" wrote


You could do that or you could use my patented method involving taking
radiators off one at a time and flushing at the radiator valves.

Thanks Andy

Flushing at the radiator valves will still rely on the water's ability to
lift the crud from the u/floor mains.
By flushing, are you talking a mains pressure connection (like the Doc) or
just the head from the feed tank?


Phil

On Mon, 15 May 2006 13:22:04 +0100, TheScullster wrote
(in article ):


"Andy Hall" wrote


You could do that or you could use my patented method involving taking
radiators off one at a time and flushing at the radiator valves.

Thanks Andy

Flushing at the radiator valves will still rely on the water's ability to
lift the crud from the u/floor mains.
By flushing, are you talking a mains pressure connection (like the Doc) or
just the head from the feed tank?


Phil



For this I think that you would really need to use mains pressure, although
tank head pressure would remove some.

This is not that hard to do simply by temporarily cutting and blocking the
pipes to the header tank and then putting in a filling valve at a point
convenient to a mains water supply. One way to block off the header tank
is to cut in a compression coupler on the feed pipe, then to replace the
barrel part with a stop end. You can put a stop end on the vent pipe.
Obviously this needs to be reversed before firing up the boiler.

There is probably less hassle with this than the hookups required with a
powerflushing machine which generally hooks on in place of the pump.

Is your boiler suitable for sealed operation? If so, while you are doing
this exercise, a conversion to sealed operation would be trivial and
accomplish the objective of providing an easy flushing arrangement into the
bargain.

"Andy Hall" wrote


Is your boiler suitable for sealed operation?

The boiler is Glow Worm Space Saver 50.
How would I find if it is suitable for mains water pressure?

I hope to draw up a schematic of the current system and will post a link.
This shows that, with hot water solenoid valve closed, there is a
significant distance between the make up water connection and the vent - a
point that you have made in previous posts concerning pump over.
My belief is that, as part of an "upgrade" to the system 10 years ago,
thermostatic valves were fitted to many rads by previous owners (or people
appointed).
Due to the poor plumbing layout, this would (from my experiences of the
system) lead to regular pump over. In other words, when all the radiators
ran "cracked", it would possibly have worked OK. But as more rads shut
down, water just pumps over, even on pump speed 2.

Will make this the subject of further thread

Thanks Andy

Phil

Doctor Drivel wrote:

A Magnaclean is not false economy at all.

I didn't say that it was, Drivel.
Please re-read the post whilst trying to concentrate.

On Mon, 15 May 2006 17:05:23 +0100, TheScullster wrote
(in article ):


"Andy Hall" wrote


Is your boiler suitable for sealed operation?

The boiler is Glow Worm Space Saver 50.
How would I find if it is suitable for mains water pressure?

Ask the manufacturer. I used to have one of those and it's a pretty old
design, so I somehow doubt it it's suitable.


I hope to draw up a schematic of the current system and will post a link.
This shows that, with hot water solenoid valve closed, there is a
significant distance between the make up water connection and the vent - a
point that you have made in previous posts concerning pump over.
My belief is that, as part of an "upgrade" to the system 10 years ago,
thermostatic valves were fitted to many rads by previous owners (or people
appointed).
Due to the poor plumbing layout, this would (from my experiences of the
system) lead to regular pump over. In other words, when all the radiators
ran "cracked", it would possibly have worked OK. But as more rads shut
down, water just pumps over, even on pump speed 2.

With correct pipe layout, pump over can be prevented regardless of the number
of TRVs. It just means that there is too great a pressure differential
between vent and FE pipe. This can easily be fixed by bringing them closer
together on the circuit - no more than 150mm - or put in an air separator.

Did I remember you saying that you were planning to replace the boiler?
When I did my system refurbishment, I removed the boiler and installed
isolating valves. I then converted the syste,m to sealed operation,
flushed at the radiators and fitted the new boiler with a strainer on the
return.





Will make this the subject of further thread

Thanks Andy

Phil