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Solar water heating and combi boilers
My original question was what to do with the surplus electricity. Indeed
I'm not sure what the regs are, currently, wrt to connecting microCHP into a mains installation. I understand suppliers are concerned about the risk of their engineers getting fried by power fed back from a CHP generator into what would otherwise be a dead part of the system under fault conditions. Apart from that are there ways of selling surplus power (I recall someone talking about trading RECs)? Or does one just give it away? Some suppliers support export arrangements, but not many at present - I believe this is something being taken up at regulatory level with the government in line with the proposals for "green" energy targets. The backfeed issue is, as I am lead to believe, mute, (i`ve raised the question myself) as any connected load on the network will dissipate the export rendering it effectively safe (and anyone working on the network should be treating it as live regardless) - but the protection should really prevent export in the event of the loss of mains supply. The energy minister a couple of years ago (a scottish bloke IIRC) was touted as the first "user" of a turbine generation device that was described as simply plugging into a standard 13A socket - I got little mental alarm bells ringing back then about export / protection ! Whether multiple backfeeds may cause a problem in the event of the failure of one isolating protection device on a segment of network, thereby putting a voltage back onto the network that may fool other isolating protection devices to think the mains are energised on the other hand... Even better if it happens to backfeed something like a pole mounted transformer - which, lets face it, is likely to be common in sites with wind turbines as they`re often remote. Other issues you will likely encounter a * Standard supply / connection agreements do not typically allow for export. * Metering of the installation / export - the metering is relatively costly compared to a standard meter (possibly due to low volumes). * Electronic meters may flag up illegal abstraction if the supply happens to flow in the "wrong" direction. * The local meter operator may not be in a position to fit the metering specified by the supplier - in which case the supplier may need to send a meter fixer a considerable number of miles to do it for them - thats assuming the local REC allow export back to the network in the first place... A suggested work-around I heard was to give anyone exporting an "allowance" off the bill, but how that would be policed is anyones guess - everyone will say they`re generating to knock a few quid off ! (and if the customers' generation equipment fails, how would this be detected to allow the bills to be adjusted) For exporting less than 16A/phase I believe G83/1 applies, otherwise look at G59/1 |
Solar water heating and combi boilers
On Tue, 23 May 2006 22:13:43 GMT someone who may be John Stumbles
wrote this:- Indeed I'm not sure what the regs are, currently, wrt to connecting microCHP into a mains installation. Much the same as connecting a small wind turbine I presume. With these it must not output electricity if there is not an external voltage from the mains. Apart from that are there ways of selling surplus power (I recall someone talking about trading RECs)? Or does one just give it away? There are essentially three parts. Firstly reductions in importing electricity. Secondly payment for exported electricity. Thirdly amalgamation by your supplier of renewable certificates. As an example http://www.good-energy.co.uk/home/33_generation.html is one offer. -- David Hansen, Edinburgh I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54 |
Solar water heating and combi boilers
"Colin Wilson" wrote in message t... The energy minister a couple of years ago (a scottish bloke IIRC) was touted as the first "user" of a turbine generation device that was described as simply plugging into a standard 13A socket - I got little mental alarm bells ringing back then about export / protection ! What happened to that system? Mary |
Solar water heating and combi boilers
On Wed, 24 May 2006 10:54:16 +0100 someone who may be "Mary Fisher"
wrote this:- The energy minister a couple of years ago (a scottish bloke IIRC) was touted as the first "user" of a turbine generation device that was described as simply plugging into a standard 13A socket - I got little mental alarm bells ringing back then about export / protection ! What happened to that system? It was probably the windsave http://www.windsave.com/ Of course the "plug-in" idea is to some extent a marketing gimmick. I certainly wouldn't have one in any property I look after. However, as they say in http://www.windsave.com/FAQ_technical.htm#22 "How safe is the system if the plug is pulled out of the socket? "There are two aspects here to be aware of. Please note that the applicable regulations demand that our system is safe in all modes of use, or indeed, 'non-use'. We typically hard wire into a fused spur, so there is no inadvertent disconnection available in normal use. When we do use a 'plug in ' technique , the socket for the 13A plug is also made safe from 'inadvertent unplugging' by means of a safety cover, which requires a tool (and a 'responsible person') to remove it. However, also please note that the standards do also require the system to go 'dead and safe' within 0.4 seconds maximum. We comply with this, but the above two methods also work to preclude this aspect of any part 'exposed' remaining live for personal contact." -- David Hansen, Edinburgh I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54 |
Solar water heating and combi boilers
The energy minister a couple of years ago (a scottish bloke IIRC) was
touted as the first "user" of a turbine generation device that was described as simply plugging into a standard 13A socket - I got little mental alarm bells ringing back then about export / protection ! What happened to that system? Not a clue, I never got any answers... |
Solar water heating and combi boilers
"David Hansen" wrote in message ... On Wed, 24 May 2006 10:54:16 +0100 someone who may be "Mary Fisher" wrote this:- The energy minister a couple of years ago (a scottish bloke IIRC) was touted as the first "user" of a turbine generation device that was described as simply plugging into a standard 13A socket - I got little mental alarm bells ringing back then about export / protection ! What happened to that system? It was probably the windsave http://www.windsave.com/ Of course the "plug-in" idea is to some extent a marketing gimmick. I certainly wouldn't have one in any property I look after. However, as they say in http://www.windsave.com/FAQ_technical.htm#22 "How safe is the system if the plug is pulled out of the socket? "There are two aspects here to be aware of. Please note that the applicable regulations demand that our system is safe in all modes of use, or indeed, 'non-use'. We typically hard wire into a fused spur, so there is no inadvertent disconnection available in normal use. When we do use a 'plug in ' technique , the socket for the 13A plug is also made safe from 'inadvertent unplugging' by means of a safety cover, which requires a tool (and a 'responsible person') to remove it. However, also please note that the standards do also require the system to go 'dead and safe' within 0.4 seconds maximum. We comply with this, but the above two methods also work to preclude this aspect of any part 'exposed' remaining live for personal contact." sigh I don't understand any of that - but is the company still going? Mary -- David Hansen, Edinburgh I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54 |
Solar water heating and combi boilers
On Wed, 24 May 2006 20:11:04 +0100 someone who may be "Mary Fisher"
wrote this:- sigh I don't understand any of that They only use the plug approach if they have to. Normally they wire it into a suitable connection unit, of which there is an example at http://www.mkelectric.co.uk/products...2&rangeid=1030 If they have to use the plug approach then the plug is fitted with a cover that is screwed into the socket, so that it cannot be accidentally withdrawn. No matter how it is connected, the controls are arranged so that if the external mains voltage disappears then within 0.4 of a second the controller will stop outputting power to the mains wiring. I assume it also brakes the wind turbine to a standstill. The external mains voltage could disappear because the plug is withdrawn, the cables are removed from the connection unit or cut, or the external supply fails (a power cut). This does mean that in a power cut the turbine cannot supply electricity. There are ways round this, but these are best supervised by a suitably qualified electrical engineer. - but is the company still going? As far as I know. The second wind turbine put up on the BBC2 television programme 'It's Not Easy Being Green' http://www.itsnoteasybeinggreen.org/index.htm was one of theirs. -- David Hansen, Edinburgh I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54 |
Solar water heating and combi boilers
"David Hansen" wrote in message ... On Wed, 24 May 2006 20:11:04 +0100 someone who may be "Mary Fisher" wrote this:- sigh I don't understand any of that They only use the plug approach if they have to. Normally they wire it into a suitable connection unit, of which there is an example at http://www.mkelectric.co.uk/products...2&rangeid=1030 But - I'm sorry to be so simple - if the 'windmill' is generating electricity how can it be used by putting it into the domestic wiring which is designed to deliver power, not accept it? .... - but is the company still going? As far as I know. The second wind turbine put up on the BBC2 television programme 'It's Not Easy Being Green' http://www.itsnoteasybeinggreen.org/index.htm was one of theirs. I've saved that to peruse later. Some things look interesting but I haven't time now, off to Scotland tomorrow. Back next week. Don't go away ... :-) Mary -- David Hansen, Edinburgh I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54 |
Solar water heating and combi boilers
Mary Fisher wrote:
They only use the plug approach if they have to. Normally they wire it into a suitable connection unit, of which there is an example at http://www.mkelectric.co.uk/products...2&rangeid=1030 But - I'm sorry to be so simple - if the 'windmill' is generating electricity how can it be used by putting it into the domestic wiring which is designed to deliver power, not accept it? The simple answer is, the domestic wiring does not care... much the same way you can have two batteries in a circuit and draw powwer from them both. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
Solar water heating and combi boilers
On Thu, 25 May 2006 22:30:58 +0100 someone who may be "Mary Fisher"
wrote this:- But - I'm sorry to be so simple - if the 'windmill' is generating electricity how can it be used by putting it into the domestic wiring which is designed to deliver power, not accept it? In essence what it does is reduce the amount of electricity drawn from the external supply. If the house is not consuming as much as is being generated then the surplus is fed into the external supply by the control system. In the water analogy, water can be sent either way along a set of pipes with branches. In electricity the "water" is not actually flowing in one direction. Rather it is flowing in one direction and then the other constantly. Thus there is no great problem accepting the wind generated electricity in current circumstances. In fact local generation tends to smooth operation of the local system. There would be more serious problems if a large proportion of electricity was generated in this way. -- David Hansen, Edinburgh I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54 |
Solar water heating and combi boilers
Mary Fisher wrote:
You have to understand the limitations of some folk, they expect to be spoon fed :-) Talking of which, you still have not told us what water softening you use with your solartwin system. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
Solar water heating and combi boilers
"John Rumm" wrote in message ... Mary Fisher wrote: You have to understand the limitations of some folk, they expect to be spoon fed :-) Talking of which, you still have not told us what water softening you use with your solartwin system. I'm sorry, I don't remember seeing the question. We've been very busy and have had lots of distractions ... We're not using any water softener, why should we? Mary |
Solar water heating and combi boilers
"John Rumm" wrote in message ... Mary Fisher wrote: They only use the plug approach if they have to. Normally they wire it into a suitable connection unit, of which there is an example at http://www.mkelectric.co.uk/products...2&rangeid=1030 But - I'm sorry to be so simple - if the 'windmill' is generating electricity how can it be used by putting it into the domestic wiring which is designed to deliver power, not accept it? The simple answer is, the domestic wiring does not care... much the same way you can have two batteries in a circuit and draw powwer from them both. Well, I know I'm only a simple little grey haired old woman but if I tried to put water from our rain butt into a domestic water tap I'd be surprised if it would be acepted. Now you can show off your physics - but not in words of one syllable, please, I do have a smidgeon of the old fashioned variety. Mary |
Solar water heating and combi boilers
"David Hansen" wrote in message ... On Thu, 25 May 2006 22:30:58 +0100 someone who may be "Mary Fisher" wrote this:- But - I'm sorry to be so simple - if the 'windmill' is generating electricity how can it be used by putting it into the domestic wiring which is designed to deliver power, not accept it? In essence what it does is reduce the amount of electricity drawn from the external supply. If the house is not consuming as much as is being generated then the surplus is fed into the external supply by the control system. Ah - so there's some system to 'control' it ... it doesn't just go through from the generator into the power outlet. In the water analogy, water can be sent either way along a set of pipes with branches. In electricity the "water" is not actually flowing in one direction. Rather it is flowing in one direction and then the other constantly. Alternating current I understand. Thus there is no great problem accepting the wind generated electricity in current circumstances. In fact local generation tends to smooth operation of the local system. There would be more serious problems if a large proportion of electricity was generated in this way. I understand that, thank you. But I hadn't heard mention of an intermediary control system. Mary -- David Hansen, Edinburgh I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54 |
Solar water heating and combi boilers
On Tue, 30 May 2006 22:13:57 +0100, Mary Fisher wrote:
I'm only a simple little grey haired old woman Seconded. You forgot to add that you;re a simple grey haired old woman who believes in an imaginary friend. but if I tried to put water from our rain butt into a domestic water tap I'd be surprised if it would be acepted. If it were of the same quality as tap water then it's feasible. Does your rain butt have a filter and chlorination equipment? A domestic generator suitable for on-line use is supplied with equipment to match the voltage and phase of the generator to the mains, which means that subject to an agreement with your supplier and suitable metering equipment it's permitted to generate your own electricity and supply it to the grid. |
Solar water heating and combi boilers
Mary Fisher wrote:
Well, I know I'm only a simple little grey haired old woman but if I tried to put water from our rain butt into a domestic water tap I'd be surprised if it would be acepted. Now you can show off your physics - but not in words of one syllable, please, I do have a smidgeon of the old fashioned variety. cue longer than intended response Think of voltage as "pressure" or in the case of water then "bar" If your water butt was full and was 30m tall you'd have 3 bar of pressure at the bottom of your butt. :¬) If you then plumbed it in to your domestic water pipe which has a pressure of 2.5 bar then the water from your butt would indeed flow into your pipes until the butt had drained down by 5m to give the same effective pressure as your water supply (i.e. the level/depth of water in your butt is 25 metres from bottom to top. With me so far... At which point, when you turn on a tap in the house water would flow equally from the water but to the tap and from the water main to the tap. EXCEPT.... the water butt would be a reducing water pressure as the level reduced whereas the water supply from the main would be pretty constant. in other words, the water butt would now be acting as a "pressure storage" device. All water would flow from the water main to the tap UNLESS the water main pressure dropped, at which point water from the butt would now flow into the house until both pressures are again equal. In the mean time.... it's raining.... an awfull lot, and isn't stopping. your butt is now trying to fill up, but as we know,when it is full it has 3 bar of pressure. so........ all the time it's raining and your butt is trying to create more than 2.5 bar of pressure, the excess water (that which would take the water deeper than 25m is overcoming the pressure in the water main and water is flowing into your house to cover any demand made from open taps etc. Where there is no demand, the water from the butt keeps trying to equalise the pressure between the water main and it's self, and flows back out of the house along the pipe to the water meter, through the water meter and into the big pipe in the road. This action causes your water meter to actually run backwards as you are returning water back to the system. Conclusion. Volts (electricity pressure) = Bar (water pressure) Wind = Rain If volts or bar are equal from 2 sources (water main & water butt OR electricity supply & wind turbine) in the same circuit power will be used equally from both sources. If volts/bar from one source is greater than the other then the source with the biggest numbers will be the supplier of the energy/water. Only thing that doesn't quite tie up is that there will always be 240v on the ring main and the wind turbine will never output anything above or below 240v so I can't really see that the electricity meter would ever actually run in reverse as some might suggest. HTH -- http://gymratz.co.uk - Best Gym Equipment & Bodybuilding Supplements UK. http://trade-price-supplements.co.uk - TRADE PRICED SUPPLEMENTS for ALL! http://fitness-equipment-uk.com - UK's No.1 Fitness Equipment Suppliers. http://Water-Rower.co.uk - Worlds best prices on the Worlds best Rower. |
Solar water heating and combi boilers
Mary Fisher wrote:
Talking of which, you still have not told us what water softening you use with your solartwin system. I'm sorry, I don't remember seeing the question. We've been very busy and have had lots of distractions ... We're not using any water softener, why should we? Erm, well if you have soft water already then there is no need. If you don't, then the solar system will scale up since it is continualliy being fed fresh water rather than recirculated water. (hence the original question about whether you local H2O was already soft) -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
Solar water heating and combi boilers
Mary Fisher wrote:
The simple answer is, the domestic wiring does not care... much the same way you can have two batteries in a circuit and draw powwer from them both. Well, I know I'm only a simple little grey haired old woman but if I tried to put water from our rain butt into a domestic water tap I'd be surprised if it would be acepted. Now you can show off your physics - but not in words of one syllable, please, I do have a smidgeon of the old fashioned variety. Well to use your analogy of the water butt, if you had a pump on it to raise the pressure so that it was comparable to that of your mains supply, then it would be "accepted" in the sense that when you turned on a tap you would end up with a mixture of rain water and fresh water coming out. In the case of a power system, the "pressure" is voltage, and the "flow rate" is current. So get the pressure (voltage) right, and turn on a tap (plug in an appliance), and water (current) will flow from both sources. You will need a few no return valves in there to make sure you don't end up back feeding your generator with mains power, and to ensure that if you do back feed the mains supply with your generator, it is only done under certain controlled conditions. (one presumes that the local generator must also have some way of aligning the phase of its output with that of the main supply) -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
Solar water heating and combi boilers
On Tue, 30 May 2006 22:54:19 GMT someone who may be "Pet @
www.gymratz.co.uk ;¬)" wrote this:- Only thing that doesn't quite tie up is that there will always be 240v on the ring main 230V plus a little or minus even less. and the wind turbine will never output anything above or below 240v It will output a suitable voltage and waveform so that energy flows "backwards" into the electricity system. Both voltage and waveform are created electronically. so I can't really see that the electricity meter would ever actually run in reverse as some might suggest. Many meters don't, because they are designed not to, but it would be amusing to have the sort that does. -- David Hansen, Edinburgh I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54 |
Solar water heating and combi boilers
On Tue, 30 May 2006 22:17:01 +0100 someone who may be "Mary Fisher"
wrote this:- Ah - so there's some system to 'control' it ... it doesn't just go through from the generator into the power outlet. The photograph at the top of http://www.windsave.com/installation.htm shows the box from one manufacturer. This chops up the DC from the turbine and converts it to a suitable AC to output. This is a standard process now, used in many applications, including trams/trains and the UPS systems some have their computers plugged into. -- David Hansen, Edinburgh I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54 |
Solar water heating and combi boilers
"John Rumm" wrote in message ... Mary Fisher wrote: Talking of which, you still have not told us what water softening you use with your solartwin system. I'm sorry, I don't remember seeing the question. We've been very busy and have had lots of distractions ... We're not using any water softener, why should we? Erm, well if you have soft water already then there is no need. If you don't, then the solar system will scale up since it is continualliy being fed fresh water rather than recirculated water. Silicone piping. |
Solar water heating and combi boilers
David Hansen wrote:
230V plus a little or minus even less. I thought it was a theoretical 230V to fall in line with some European ruling whereas in fact the UK voltage didn't ever change they just factored in a 5% tolerance so 230v +- 5% means that 240v still falls into line. But I've prolly mis-interpreted something. so I can't really see that the electricity meter would ever actually run in reverse as some might suggest. Many meters don't, because they are designed not to, but it would be amusing to have the sort that does. How would one tell? Ours is a 1970's model. -- http://gymratz.co.uk - Best Gym Equipment & Bodybuilding Supplements UK. http://trade-price-supplements.co.uk - TRADE PRICED SUPPLEMENTS for ALL! http://fitness-equipment-uk.com - UK's No.1 Fitness Equipment Suppliers. http://Water-Rower.co.uk - Worlds best prices on the Worlds best Rower. |
Solar water heating and combi boilers
On Wed, 31 May 2006 15:46:41 GMT someone who may be "Pet @
www.gymratz.co.uk ;¬)" wrote this:- I thought it was a theoretical 230V to fall in line with some European ruling whereas in fact the UK voltage didn't ever change they just factored in a 5% tolerance so 230v +- 5% means that 240v still falls into line. Before the change it was 240V plus or minus the same amount (can't be bothered to look it up). Now it is 230V plus something or minus less than something. This allows the voltage that arrives at people's house to remain at around 240V, while allowing people to claim harmonisation. IIRC the next stage is to set it at 230V plus or minus something. The voltage will eventually change to 230V, but not as quickly as party politicians claimed. Many meters don't, because they are designed not to, but it would be amusing to have the sort that does. How would one tell? No idea, I'm not an expert on meter markings. A 1970's model might just run backwards. -- David Hansen, Edinburgh I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54 |
Solar water heating and combi boilers
Mary Fisher wrote:
We're not using any water softener, why should we? Erm, well if you have soft water already then there is no need. If you don't, then the solar system will scale up since it is continualliy being fed fresh water rather than recirculated water. Silicone piping. I was asking about the softness of the water, not the pipes! ;-) If you go he http://www.yorkshirewater.com/?PC=LS...H=497&OBH=493# (stick your own postcode into the search box on the bottom left of the home page he http://www.yorkshirewater.com/ if you want a more local report than the central Leeads one I picked as an example) It says: "The water supplied to the zone is classified as being moderately hard water, which is river/reservoir derived. As we have a grid system in place whereby we can move water around the Yorkshire region as required, occasionally the hardness of your water may vary." (Alas the loacl report I looked at omits the hardness figures from the report!) So the thrust of my question was driven by: (To quote from http://www.solartwin.com/PDF/Best_practice.pdf) "Water quality Best practice in water hardness control is more important for direct than for indirect solar water heating systems. Direct solar water heating systems may need robust hardness control: and water softeners may be difficult to install in a few properties. Unless they are plumbed “indirectly”, water harness control for direct solar is usually achieved by polyphosphates where the water hardness is 100-200 ppm CaCO3 and by the use of an ion exchange softener above this figure. Ion exchange water softeners are thus regarded as essential best practice. Lower cost, but less effective hardness control options such as “physical water conditioning” may be feasible for indirect solar thermal plumbing." Hence if you water is "moderately hard": Which from: http://www.yorkshirewater.com/?OBH=1240&SCH=hardness Gives: Hardness in mg/l Hardness in mg/l as calcium as calcium carbonate Soft 0 - 20 0 - 50 Moderately soft 20 - 40 50 - 100 Slightly hard 40 - 60 100 - 150 Moderately hard 60 - 80 150 - 200 Hard 80 - 120 200 - 300 Very hard Over 120 Over 300 That suggests a 150 - 200 ppm CaCO3 level, which is in the range that Solartwin recommend you use some form of softening. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
Solar water heating and combi boilers
Pet @ www.gymratz.co.uk ;¬) wrote:
David Hansen wrote: 230V plus a little or minus even less. I thought it was a theoretical 230V to fall in line with some European ruling whereas in fact the UK voltage didn't ever change they just factored in a 5% tolerance so 230v +- 5% means that 240v still falls into line. But I've prolly mis-interpreted something. No, that is about right. It used to be specced at 240V +/- 6%, all that changed was the specified voltage was lowered to 230V and the tollerance widened to allow 240V to meet the spec of 230V -6%/+10% -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
Solar water heating and combi boilers
"John Rumm" wrote in message ... Mary Fisher wrote: We're not using any water softener, why should we? Erm, well if you have soft water already then there is no need. If you don't, then the solar system will scale up since it is continualliy being fed fresh water rather than recirculated water. Silicone piping. I was asking about the softness of the water, not the pipes! ;-) Yes dear, but why is there a problem about scaling in silicone piping? |
Solar water heating and combi boilers
Mary Fisher wrote:
Silicone piping. I was asking about the softness of the water, not the pipes! ;-) Yes dear, but why is there a problem about scaling in silicone piping? Well one presumes that eventually the collector gets blocked with scale or the solar pump stops working, leaving you with a nice roof ornament. You will also get plenty of scale accumulating/forming in the hot water cylinder, and this is free to migrate into the solar system since it is directly plumbed. Scaling in pipes themselves is usually less of an issue (although micorbore is more at risk) than the rest of the system. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
Solar water heating and combi boilers
On Wed, 31 May 2006 21:11:41 +0100, "Mary Fisher"
wrote: Yes dear, but why is there a problem about scaling in silicone piping? There isn't, there is one in the metal heat collector and metal junction pipes the silicone piping attaches to. If you don't use soft water these quite rapidly become clogged rendering the panel unusable. -- Peter Parry. http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/ |
Solar water heating and combi boilers
"John Rumm" wrote in message ... Mary Fisher wrote: Silicone piping. I was asking about the softness of the water, not the pipes! ;-) Yes dear, but why is there a problem about scaling in silicone piping? Well one presumes that eventually the collector gets blocked with scale or the solar pump stops working, leaving you with a nice roof ornament. You will also get plenty of scale accumulating/forming in the hot water cylinder, and this is free to migrate into the solar system since it is directly plumbed. Scaling in pipes themselves is usually less of an issue (although micorbore is more at risk) than the rest of the system. It's not microbore. The domestic pipes don't block from scale and they're not made from low friction material. There's lots of room in the cylinder for scale but it tends to stick to the surfaces and not migrate ... You seem to think you know more about this system than the manufacturers. Do you think they haven't addressed these potential problems? |
Solar water heating and combi boilers
On Wed, 31 May 2006 21:48:58 +0100, Mary Fisher wrote:
"John Rumm" wrote in message ... Mary Fisher wrote: Silicone piping. I was asking about the softness of the water, not the pipes! ;-) Yes dear, but why is there a problem about scaling in silicone piping? Well one presumes that eventually the collector gets blocked with scale or the solar pump stops working, leaving you with a nice roof ornament. You will also get plenty of scale accumulating/forming in the hot water cylinder, and this is free to migrate into the solar system since it is directly plumbed. Scaling in pipes themselves is usually less of an issue (although micorbore is more at risk) than the rest of the system. It's not microbore. The domestic pipes don't block from scale and they're not made from low friction material. And they don't work in the same way or at the same temperatures as a solar collector. There's lots of room in the cylinder for scale but it tends to stick to the surfaces and not migrate ... The collector is, however the place where fresh water is first heated to a temperature greater than 60C which means that if scale is likely to form anywhere it's within the solar collector. The other problem you have if you have soft water is that you are passing oxygen-rich water through the solar collector and replenishing it before it can become oxygen depleted as happens in domestic hot water systems. This oxygen rich water will increase corrosion. You seem to think you know more about this system than the manufacturers. Do you think they haven't addressed these potential problems? I do. It's not in their interest to solve such problems. You fall back on faith that insert name here knows much more than any mere newsgroup reader quite often. Do you imagine that everyone who sells some domestic appliance is a genius and that only losers read newsgroups? |
Solar water heating and combi boilers
"Peter Parry" wrote in message ... On Wed, 31 May 2006 21:11:41 +0100, "Mary Fisher" wrote: Yes dear, but why is there a problem about scaling in silicone piping? There isn't, there is one in the metal heat collector and metal junction pipes the silicone piping attaches to. If you don't use soft water these quite rapidly become clogged rendering the panel unusable. The piping is silicone. |
Solar water heating and combi boilers
Mary Fisher wrote:
'strewth, do you take obtuse lessons? Scaling in pipes themselves is usually less of an issue (although micorbore is more at risk) than the rest of the system. It's not microbore. Never said it was... The domestic pipes don't block from scale and they're not made from low friction material. Note my comment above: "Scaling in pipes themselves is usually less of an issue". I was highlighting that pipes are not usually the things most affected by scale. You seem to think you know more about this system than the manufacturers. Sorry, I don't think you are paying attention. I am not trying to back you into a corner so that I can say "aha! it won't work then because...", I was just trying to find out more about the system from someone who has actually used it. I have no knowledge of the system other than what I have read in the manufacturers installation manual. The *makers say* that in a situation with moderately hard water, hardness control is *required*. Therefore it was my assumption that since you had it professionally fitted following the makers advice you must have some form of water softening device fitted. I just wanted to know what they used! Is that such a difficult question? Do you think they haven't addressed these potential problems? The makers certainly seem to have addressed the issues in their instructions. Depending on what your installer did, he may have failed to address a potential problem by ignoring the makers advice. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
Solar water heating and combi boilers
On Wed, 31 May 2006 21:48:46 +0100 someone who may be Peter Parry
wrote this:- Yes dear, but why is there a problem about scaling in silicone piping? There isn't, there is one in the metal heat collector There isn't any metal in contact with the water in a Solartwin panel. It flows through silicone pipes as part of the freeze tolerant design. and metal junction pipes the silicone piping attaches to. The silicone pipes attach close to the hot water cylinder. Any scale that forms there is going to be little different than they which forms when the cylinder is heated by the coil. However, taking account of water hardness is advised by the manufacturer. In this case I have no idea whether the installers considered water hardness and decided that it wasn't a great problem, failed to consider it, or were told not to do anything about it. -- David Hansen, Edinburgh I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54 |
Solar water heating and combi boilers
"John Rumm" wrote in message ... Mary Fisher wrote: 'strewth, do you take obtuse lessons? I do wonder why you're being so persistent about this. Do you really care about what kind of water heating we have or do you just like baiting me? You seem to think you know more about this system than the manufacturers. Sorry, I don't think you are paying attention. I am not trying to back you into a corner so that I can say "aha! it won't work then because...", That's how you come across. I was just trying to find out more about the system from someone who has actually used it. I doubt that you're considering to install one. I've told you how it works for us, you continue to criticise it. I have no knowledge of the system other than what I have read in the manufacturers installation manual. So why are you bothering? The *makers say* that in a situation with moderately hard water, hardness control is *required*. Therefore it was my assumption that since you had it professionally fitted following the makers advice you must have some form of water softening device fitted. YOU haven't been listening. I've said lots of times that we fitted it ourselves. Hardness has to be added to our water. That's been said here too and not just by me. Do you think they haven't addressed these potential problems? The makers certainly seem to have addressed the issues in their instructions. Depending on what your installer did, he may have failed to address a potential problem by ignoring the makers advice. Spouse installed it, with extra advice and encouragement from the makers (I've said that before) because he trusts his own skills, so do I. What you think is irrelevant. We spent months thinking about the system and researching it and others. We are very happy with it, full stop. We have had no problems so far with it. We can't anticipate any problems because it was thoroughly researched (without benefit of your advice, but you can't be on hand or everyone all the time). So saying, we understand that nothing is perfect. That wouldn't stop us buying a new spoon or car or pc or bag of flour. Perhaps you live in a world where you are confident that nothing you have will ever let you down. That's not the real world. Stay in it and leave lesser mortals to enjoy or suffer from their own judgements. Nobody's going to blame you. |
Solar water heating and combi boilers
"David Hansen" wrote in message ... On Wed, 31 May 2006 21:48:46 +0100 someone who may be Peter Parry wrote this:- Yes dear, but why is there a problem about scaling in silicone piping? There isn't, there is one in the metal heat collector There isn't any metal in contact with the water in a Solartwin panel. It flows through silicone pipes as part of the freeze tolerant design. and metal junction pipes the silicone piping attaches to. The silicone pipes attach close to the hot water cylinder. Any scale that forms there is going to be little different than they which forms when the cylinder is heated by the coil. Thanks, David. However, taking account of water hardness is advised by the manufacturer. In this case I have no idea whether the installers considered water hardness and decided that it wasn't a great problem, failed to consider it, or were told not to do anything about it. Spouse installed it. Hardness isn't an issue here. We don't have softeners, they're not needed and are undesirable. No water - hot or cold - appliance suffers from scaling over normal periods of use (e.g. twenty + years for a multipoint water heater, 22 years for a central heating boiler, a hundred years for a copper kettle ... ). Mary |
Solar water heating and combi boilers
On Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:59:32 +0100 someone who may be "Mary Fisher"
wrote this:- Spouse installed it. Sorry. I had forgotten that you have said that several times. It's probably because I'm of the male persuasion:-) I think that those who perhaps mainly have experience of hard water areas tend to not appreciate what soft water is like. People sometimes wonder why I don't use the water softener in my dishwasher. The reason I don't is that it makes the water far too soft. -- David Hansen, Edinburgh I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54 |
Solar water heating and combi boilers
On Wed, 31 May 2006 22:16:05 +0100, "Mary Fisher"
wrote: The piping is silicone. "How hardness affects Solartwin Is hardness control required? Yes. It is very important our panels heat up to over 60C. High temperatures promote limescale deposition. Limescale could eventually block panels unless controlled...Warranty is invalid for incorrect hardness methods or thresholds... For direct installations, use nothing else except: – Polyphosphate 100-199 ppm CaCO3 only – Ion Exchange Water Softener 100 ppm CaCO3 and above" -- Peter Parry. http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/ |
Solar water heating and combi boilers
On Wed, 31 May 2006 21:48:58 +0100, "Mary Fisher"
wrote: There's lots of room in the cylinder for scale but it tends to stick to the surfaces and not migrate ... You seem to think you know more about this system than the manufacturers. Do you think they haven't addressed these potential problems? Of course they have - they require the hardness of the water to be controlled. "0-99 (max) ppm CaCO3 very soft. No water hardness treatment to be done here. 100-199 (max) ppm CaCO3 slightly hard-mod hard. EITHER Fernox Superconc. Preventer OR Ion exch water softener req'd If EVER over 200 ppm CaCO3 hard-very hard. Ion exchange water softener required" -- Peter Parry. http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/ |
Solar water heating and combi boilers
"David Hansen" wrote in message ... I think that those who perhaps mainly have experience of hard water areas tend to not appreciate what soft water is like. I think, to be fair, that the same applies to people who mainly have experience of soft water. When we visit a son in Wiltshire I'm amazed at the scale on everything touched by water. Yes, even him :-) But when we visit a daughter in Wales, whose water is from a spring, we're surprised that it's even softer than ours. It certainly made a difference when the water board put hardness in (for the sake of our arteries). People sometimes wonder why I don't use the water softener in my dishwasher. The reason I don't is that it makes the water far too soft. We've never tried it. Mary |
Solar water heating and combi boilers
Mary Fisher wrote:
'strewth, do you take obtuse lessons? I do wonder why you're being so persistent about this. Do you really care about what kind of water heating we have or do you just like baiting me? Yup I have nothing better to do.... I asked a question that is all. I can't help it if you have to be so defensive about it. This is obviously a "touchy" subject for you, why I am not sure, perhaps you expect everyone will challenge your decision to install it. Not me. I appreciate you enjoy arguing for the sake of it, but sometimes, just sometimes you could just answer a straight question. So to recap in this thread: I have asked about your system, what components it consisted of, what it cost, what water softening was installed. Back on topic I have also discussed solutions for combining solar with a combi, then had a diversion into back feeding AC power supplies. Mostly you have given in response suspicion, and avoidance. Did the earth move for you too? OK I give up, I don't want to know *that* much. Happy now? You seem to think you know more about this system than the manufacturers. Sorry, I don't think you are paying attention. I am not trying to back you into a corner so that I can say "aha! it won't work then because...", That's how you come across. Then my presentation or your perception is flawed. I was just trying to find out more about the system from someone who has actually used it. I doubt that you're considering to install one. I've told you how it works for us, you continue to criticise it. I am not considering installing one for me, since it would be incompatible with my system. That does not mean that I don't want to understand the system, its benefits, and pitfalls, and hence form an opinion as to whether it would be appropriate for others who *may* want such a system and might ask me to install it. Now, show me where I have criticised your system. I have no knowledge of the system other than what I have read in the manufacturers installation manual. So why are you bothering? So I can find out more. Questions do not indicate hostility. You need to address your preconceptions. The *makers say* that in a situation with moderately hard water, hardness control is *required*. Therefore it was my assumption that since you had it professionally fitted following the makers advice you must have some form of water softening device fitted. YOU haven't been listening. I've said lots of times that we fitted it ourselves. Hardness has to be added to our water. That's been said here too and not just by me. OK fair enough. You have said that. The difficulty is that the small fragments of information that you did give have been handed out piecemeal and obfuscated by the additional twittering. Spouse installed it, with extra advice and encouragement from the makers (I've said that before) because he trusts his own skills, so do I. I am sure he did his bit just fine. What I was trying to reconcile was the conflicting advice - the instructions say use water softening, yet it seems they did not suggest that you should. This may mean that someone screwed up, it may be they think they can sell more systems this way, it may be your water is not actually hard enough to be a problem, it may be the advice in the instructions is wrong. Who knows? You probably do, but it seems you don't want to say. What you think is irrelevant. We spent months thinking about the system and researching it and others. We are very happy with it, full stop. We have had no problems so far with it. We can't anticipate any problems because it was thoroughly researched (without benefit of your advice, but you can't be on hand or everyone all the time). I would not be qualified to offer you advice in these circumstances, and so I would not. Again you are being defensive. I was not criticising your purchase. The only "criticism" I have expressed if you wish to call it that, was the statement that the type of system you have would be of little use to the owner of a water heating system that is based on a combi and has no storage. Personally I don't consider that a criticism. Perhaps you live in a world where you are confident that nothing you have will ever let you down. Yes that would be nice, but I am not *that* delusional. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
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