It seems I will need to do a bit of riveting shortly, and I know nothing
about it...

Background is that my kids have got into sailing (something else I know
nothing about), and it has been decreed that Dad needs to upgrade the
rigging on their dinghy, which may prove interesting! Anyway, part of
this will involve attaching new bits to the mast - this sort of thing:

http://www.sailboats.co.uk/Product~Holt_Halyard_Cleat_Nylon_Topp_Mast_HA.130. html

which is apparently a lump of nylon a couple of inches long; the mast
being a hollow aluminium pole. This needs doing with rivets, I'm told.

So, what do I need?

Searching for 'rivet' at Screwfix, I find the following:
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?cId=102094&ts=70670&id=10068#
and
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?ts=71204&id=12009

Is that the right tool and parts I need!?

Thanks
David

On Sun, 26 Feb 2006 16:29:49 GMT, Lobster
wrote:

It seems I will need to do a bit of riveting shortly, and I know nothing
about it...

Background is that my kids have got into sailing (something else I know
nothing about), and it has been decreed that Dad needs to upgrade the
rigging on their dinghy, which may prove interesting! Anyway, part of
this will involve attaching new bits to the mast - this sort of thing:

http://www.sailboats.co.uk/Product~Holt_Halyard_Cleat_Nylon_Topp_Mast_HA.130. html

which is apparently a lump of nylon a couple of inches long; the mast
being a hollow aluminium pole. This needs doing with rivets, I'm told.

So, what do I need?

Searching for 'rivet' at Screwfix, I find the following:
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?cId=102094&ts=70670&id=10068#
and
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?ts=71204&id=12009

Is that the right tool and parts I need!?

Thanks
David

Go to your nearest car bits shop and buy a kit there to experiment
with.

I don't like rivets to attach fitments to anything, feeling they are
more suited for sheet materials. A self tapping screw would seem
preferable, but it may be something to do with damaging the structure
of the mast and creating fracture points.

After you have done a couple of play rivets you will find it very
simple to do well.

"Lobster" wrote in message
...
It seems I will need to do a bit of riveting shortly, and I know nothing
about it...

Background is that my kids have got into sailing (something else I know
nothing about), and it has been decreed that Dad needs to upgrade the
rigging on their dinghy, which may prove interesting! Anyway, part of
this will involve attaching new bits to the mast - this sort of thing:

http://www.sailboats.co.uk/Product~Holt_Halyard_Cleat_Nylon_Topp_Mast_HA.130. html

which is apparently a lump of nylon a couple of inches long; the mast
being a hollow aluminium pole. This needs doing with rivets, I'm told.

So, what do I need?

Searching for 'rivet' at Screwfix, I find the following:
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?cId=102094&ts=70670&id=10068#
and
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?ts=71204&id=12009

Is that the right tool and parts I need!?

Thanks
David




===================
Why not buy at the same place?

http://www.sailboats.co.uk/Product~H..._Gun_H392.html

Be careful - 3/16" pop rivets can require a lot of hand strength.

Cic.

EricP wrote:
On Sun, 26 Feb 2006 16:29:49 GMT, Lobster
wrote:

It seems I will need to do a bit of riveting shortly, and I know
nothing about it...

Background is that my kids have got into sailing (something else I
know nothing about), and it has been decreed that Dad needs to
upgrade the rigging on their dinghy, which may prove interesting!
Anyway, part of this will involve attaching new bits to the mast -
this sort of thing:


http://www.sailboats.co.uk/Product~H...Topp_Mast_HA.1
30.html

which is apparently a lump of nylon a couple of inches long; the mast
being a hollow aluminium pole. This needs doing with rivets, I'm
told.

So, what do I need?

Searching for 'rivet' at Screwfix, I find the following:

http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?cId=102094&ts=70670&id=10068#
and
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?ts=71204&id=12009

Is that the right tool and parts I need!?

Thanks
David

Go to your nearest car bits shop and buy a kit there to experiment
with.

I don't like rivets to attach fitments to anything, feeling they are
more suited for sheet materials. A self tapping screw would seem
preferable, but it may be something to do with damaging the structure
of the mast and creating fracture points.

After you have done a couple of play rivets you will find it very
simple to do well.

Yup! I aggree,that sort of attachment was designed to be self tapped to a
pole, judging by the depth of the hole a rivet will not be long enough for
a fix.
--

Sir Benjamin Midllethwaite

Lobster wrote:
The3rd Earl Of Derby wrote:
EricP wrote:

On Sun, 26 Feb 2006 16:29:49 GMT, Lobster
wrote:


It seems I will need to do a bit of riveting shortly, and I know
nothing about it...

Background is that my kids have got into sailing (something else I
know nothing about), and it has been decreed that Dad needs to
upgrade the rigging on their dinghy, which may prove interesting!
Anyway, part of this will involve attaching new bits to the mast -
this sort of thing:



http://www.sailboats.co.uk/Product~H...Topp_Mast_HA.1
30.html

which is apparently a lump of nylon a couple of inches long; the
mast being a hollow aluminium pole. This needs doing with rivets,
I'm told.

So, what do I need?

Searching for 'rivet' at Screwfix, I find the following:



http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?cId=102094&ts=70670&id=10068#

and
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?ts=71204&id=12009

Is that the right tool and parts I need!?

Go to your nearest car bits shop and buy a kit there to experiment
with.

Would that be the same as the Screwfix kit, then?

I don't like rivets to attach fitments to anything, feeling they are
more suited for sheet materials. A self tapping screw would seem
preferable, but it may be something to do with damaging the
structure of the mast and creating fracture points.

After you have done a couple of play rivets you will find it very
simple to do well.

Yup! I aggree,that sort of attachment was designed to be self tapped
to a pole, judging by the depth of the hole a rivet will not be long
enough for a fix.

Well, it's just that all the bits on the dinghy as originally supplied
(a Topper, FWIW) were fixed with rivets, and a bloke I was talking to
at the sailing club was talking about riveting the new bits on, so I
assumed there was good reason not to use self-tappers (which is
admittedly what I'd have done otherwise).

David

So why is there a need to upgrade the rigging?
--

Sir Benjamin Midllethwaite

The3rd Earl Of Derby wrote:
EricP wrote:

On Sun, 26 Feb 2006 16:29:49 GMT, Lobster
wrote:


It seems I will need to do a bit of riveting shortly, and I know
nothing about it...

Background is that my kids have got into sailing (something else I
know nothing about), and it has been decreed that Dad needs to
upgrade the rigging on their dinghy, which may prove interesting!
Anyway, part of this will involve attaching new bits to the mast -
this sort of thing:


http://www.sailboats.co.uk/Product~H...Topp_Mast_HA.1
30.html

which is apparently a lump of nylon a couple of inches long; the mast
being a hollow aluminium pole. This needs doing with rivets, I'm
told.

So, what do I need?

Searching for 'rivet' at Screwfix, I find the following:


http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?cId=102094&ts=70670&id=10068#

and
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?ts=71204&id=12009

Is that the right tool and parts I need!?

Go to your nearest car bits shop and buy a kit there to experiment
with.

Would that be the same as the Screwfix kit, then?

I don't like rivets to attach fitments to anything, feeling they are
more suited for sheet materials. A self tapping screw would seem
preferable, but it may be something to do with damaging the structure
of the mast and creating fracture points.

After you have done a couple of play rivets you will find it very
simple to do well.

Yup! I aggree,that sort of attachment was designed to be self tapped to a
pole, judging by the depth of the hole a rivet will not be long enough for
a fix.

Well, it's just that all the bits on the dinghy as originally supplied
(a Topper, FWIW) were fixed with rivets, and a bloke I was talking to at
the sailing club was talking about riveting the new bits on, so I
assumed there was good reason not to use self-tappers (which is
admittedly what I'd have done otherwise).

David

On Sun, 26 Feb 2006 16:29:49 GMT, Lobster
wrote:

It seems I will need to do a bit of riveting shortly, and I know nothing
about it...

Background is that my kids have got into sailing (something else I know
nothing about), and it has been decreed that Dad needs to upgrade the
rigging on their dinghy, which may prove interesting! Anyway, part of
this will involve attaching new bits to the mast - this sort of thing:

http://www.sailboats.co.uk/Product~Holt_Halyard_Cleat_Nylon_Topp_Mast_HA.130. html

which is apparently a lump of nylon a couple of inches long; the mast
being a hollow aluminium pole. This needs doing with rivets, I'm told.

That cleat doesn't look like it's meant to be pop riveted - for a
start, the hole on the left is countersunk so you'll need a
countersunk rivet, which is a bit specialist. The worst problem is the
other hole though - It's very deep, so the nose of the tool won't be
able to reach the head of the rivet.

I've never been a fan of self-tappers either. I'd tend to use rivnuts
for something like that :-

http://www.nfauto.co.uk/nutsert.htm

The only downside (apart from the cost of the tool) is that you do
need a big hole in the mounting surface, so mast-strength might be a
problem. Also, you need to make sure you use the right rivnuts for
your mast wall-thickness (The tools tend to come with nuts for very
thin panels)

Cheers,

Colin.

On Sun, 26 Feb 2006 17:25:24 GMT, Lobster
wrote:

The3rd Earl Of Derby wrote:
EricP wrote:

On Sun, 26 Feb 2006 16:29:49 GMT, Lobster
wrote:


It seems I will need to do a bit of riveting shortly, and I know
nothing about it...

Background is that my kids have got into sailing (something else I
know nothing about), and it has been decreed that Dad needs to
upgrade the rigging on their dinghy, which may prove interesting!
Anyway, part of this will involve attaching new bits to the mast -
this sort of thing:


http://www.sailboats.co.uk/Product~H...Topp_Mast_HA.1
30.html

which is apparently a lump of nylon a couple of inches long; the mast
being a hollow aluminium pole. This needs doing with rivets, I'm
told.

So, what do I need?

Searching for 'rivet' at Screwfix, I find the following:


http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?cId=102094&ts=70670&id=10068#

and
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?ts=71204&id=12009

Is that the right tool and parts I need!?

Go to your nearest car bits shop and buy a kit there to experiment
with.

Would that be the same as the Screwfix kit, then?

I don't like rivets to attach fitments to anything, feeling they are
more suited for sheet materials. A self tapping screw would seem
preferable, but it may be something to do with damaging the structure
of the mast and creating fracture points.

After you have done a couple of play rivets you will find it very
simple to do well.

Yup! I aggree,that sort of attachment was designed to be self tapped to a
pole, judging by the depth of the hole a rivet will not be long enough for
a fix.

Well, it's just that all the bits on the dinghy as originally supplied
(a Topper, FWIW) were fixed with rivets, and a bloke I was talking to at
the sailing club was talking about riveting the new bits on, so I
assumed there was good reason not to use self-tappers (which is
admittedly what I'd have done otherwise).

I'm no expert on boats, but I'd have thought that self-tappers would
work loose on a mast rattling about in the breeze.

Looking at the picture of the cleat, it seems that one of the fixing
holes is quite deep - you might have trouble getting the "nozzle" of a
riveter in there.

--
Frank Erskine

On Sun, 26 Feb 2006 17:11:22 GMT, The3rd Earl Of Derby wrote:

EricP wrote:
On Sun, 26 Feb 2006 16:29:49 GMT, Lobster
wrote:

It seems I will need to do a bit of riveting shortly, and I know
nothing about it...

Background is that my kids have got into sailing (something else I
know nothing about), and it has been decreed that Dad needs to
upgrade the rigging on their dinghy, which may prove interesting!
Anyway, part of this will involve attaching new bits to the mast -
this sort of thing:


http://www.sailboats.co.uk/Product~H...Topp_Mast_HA.1
30.html

which is apparently a lump of nylon a couple of inches long; the mast
being a hollow aluminium pole. This needs doing with rivets, I'm
told.

So, what do I need?

Searching for 'rivet' at Screwfix, I find the following:

http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?cId=102094&ts=70670&id=10068#
and
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?ts=71204&id=12009

Is that the right tool and parts I need!?

Thanks
David

Go to your nearest car bits shop and buy a kit there to experiment
with.

I don't like rivets to attach fitments to anything, feeling they are
more suited for sheet materials. A self tapping screw would seem
preferable, but it may be something to do with damaging the structure
of the mast and creating fracture points.

After you have done a couple of play rivets you will find it very
simple to do well.

Yup! I aggree,that sort of attachment was designed to be self tapped to a
pole, judging by the depth of the hole a rivet will not be long enough for
a fix.

Absolute ********
Don¢t use self-tappers on an alloy mast they will just rip out.
Get the correct alloy countersunk pop rivets from a chandlers.
The last thing you need is a cleat to rip out and the boom smacks one of
your kids in the head before knocking them overboard.

--
DaveWu

Lobster wrote:
It seems I will need to do a bit of riveting shortly, and I know nothing
about it...

Background is that my kids have got into sailing (something else I know
nothing about), and it has been decreed that Dad needs to upgrade the
rigging on their dinghy, which may prove interesting! Anyway, part of
this will involve attaching new bits to the mast - this sort of thing:

http://www.sailboats.co.uk/Product~Holt_Halyard_Cleat_Nylon_Topp_Mast_HA.130. html


which is apparently a lump of nylon a couple of inches long; the mast
being a hollow aluminium pole. This needs doing with rivets, I'm told.

So, what do I need?

Searching for 'rivet' at Screwfix, I find the following:
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?cId=102094&ts=70670&id=10068#
and
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?ts=71204&id=12009

Is that the right tool and parts I need!?

At the moment, I don't know.

What you must first do, is give us an indication of what the cleat is
for, what size holes are in it for fastening to the mast, at what
position will it be fixed to the mast (height).

These are only a few questions that spring to mind right now.

There are lots ot considerations about this seemingly small job.

After spending well over 20 years working with what I would imagine to
be very similar materials in the aerospace industry, I would urge you to
consider the following.

A dinghy's mast is subject to stress across it and as such, any weakness
will cause it to crack. Any hole is a potential weak spot. OK if on an
inland lake/pond :-)
Put the same dinghy in the sea and you can imagine what would happen if
the same thing happened.

The link that was posted about rivets looks like it infers 'pop rivets'.
These are OK in the right job, but I would tend to go for something that
can't work loose, or snap off.

Post again with as much info about the job and boat as you can.

Dave

Dave W wrote:
On Sun, 26 Feb 2006 17:11:22 GMT, The3rd Earl Of Derby wrote:

EricP wrote:
On Sun, 26 Feb 2006 16:29:49 GMT, Lobster
wrote:

It seems I will need to do a bit of riveting shortly, and I know
nothing about it...

Background is that my kids have got into sailing (something else I
know nothing about), and it has been decreed that Dad needs to
upgrade the rigging on their dinghy, which may prove interesting!
Anyway, part of this will involve attaching new bits to the mast -
this sort of thing:



http://www.sailboats.co.uk/Product~H...Topp_Mast_HA.1
30.html

which is apparently a lump of nylon a couple of inches long; the
mast being a hollow aluminium pole. This needs doing with rivets,
I'm told.

So, what do I need?

Searching for 'rivet' at Screwfix, I find the following:


http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?cId=102094&ts=70670&id=10068#
and
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?ts=71204&id=12009

Is that the right tool and parts I need!?

Thanks
David

Go to your nearest car bits shop and buy a kit there to experiment
with.

I don't like rivets to attach fitments to anything, feeling they are
more suited for sheet materials. A self tapping screw would seem
preferable, but it may be something to do with damaging the
structure of the mast and creating fracture points.

After you have done a couple of play rivets you will find it very
simple to do well.

Yup! I aggree,that sort of attachment was designed to be self tapped
to a pole, judging by the depth of the hole a rivet will not be long
enough for a fix.

Absolute ********
Don¢t use self-tappers on an alloy mast they will just rip out.
Get the correct alloy countersunk pop rivets from a chandlers.
The last thing you need is a cleat to rip out and the boom smacks one
of your kids in the head before knocking them overboard.

How's he supposed to get a rivet in the deepest recess, huh!
--

Sir Benjamin Midllethwaite

Lobster wrote:
It seems I will need to do a bit of riveting shortly, and I know nothing
about it...

Background is that my kids have got into sailing (something else I know
nothing about), and it has been decreed that Dad needs to upgrade the
rigging on their dinghy, which may prove interesting! Anyway, part of
this will involve attaching new bits to the mast - this sort of thing:

http://www.sailboats.co.uk/Product~Holt_Halyard_Cleat_Nylon_Topp_Mast_HA.130. html


which is apparently a lump of nylon a couple of inches long; the mast
being a hollow aluminium pole. This needs doing with rivets, I'm told.

So, what do I need?

Searching for 'rivet' at Screwfix, I find the following:
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?cId=102094&ts=70670&id=10068#
and
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?ts=71204&id=12009

Is that the right tool and parts I need!?

Thanks
David

Right tool, wrong part (for this application). Corrosion is a big issue
on any boat - mild steel rivets (even if plated) will have a very
limited lifespan. Stainless steel fittings + aluminium mast + salt water
will also cause galvanic corrosion of the aluminium very quickly. Self
tappers will therefore become loose as the aluminium corrodes around
them. Stainless steel rivets will last longer than self tappers,
aluminium rivets will be the best option.

However - why is this extra cleat needed? It is a long time since I
sailed Toppers, but it is what is called a strict one design class. This
means that you are not allowed to change anything on the boat unless
specifically stated in the rules. The rules say:

"Any alteration to the hull, spars, foils, sails, rigging or equipment
as supplied by the builder or sailmaker shall be prohibited, except as
specifically authorised by these rules."

Obviously this only matters if your kids wish to race it, or when you
come to sell it, but be advised that sailing has far more than its fair
share of bar room experts who will be able to think of things that you
'need', be it a new sail, new foils (rudder and daggerboard), different
ropes, different blocks, different toestraps, new storage bags,
different trolley, etc, etc, etc. If you are competing in the national
or world championships these things matter - anywhere else it will just
cost you a lot of money for no reason.

If you post a bit more info on where the cleat is supposed to go and
what it is supposed to do I'll try and advise you further, or you could
go along to the Topper class association website at
http://www.gbrtopper.co.uk/ and ask on their forums (if not already
asked and answered there).

HTH

Chris

--
Cut along the dotted line to reply

On Sun, 26 Feb 2006 17:25:24 GMT, Lobster
wrote:

Go to your nearest car bits shop and buy a kit there to experiment
with.

Would that be the same as the Screwfix kit, then?

Yep, but ask around. Most people probably have a kit in their
garage/shed from 1983 minus the four rivets they used then.

Lobster wrote:
It seems I will need to do a bit of riveting shortly, and I know nothing
about it...

Background is that my kids have got into sailing (something else I know
nothing about), and it has been decreed that Dad needs to upgrade the
rigging on their dinghy, which may prove interesting! Anyway, part of
this will involve attaching new bits to the mast - this sort of thing:


given the risks and complications I'd ask the manufacturer


NT

In article .com,
writes
Lobster wrote:
It seems I will need to do a bit of riveting shortly, and I know nothing
about it...

Background is that my kids have got into sailing (something else I know
nothing about), and it has been decreed that Dad needs to upgrade the
rigging on their dinghy, which may prove interesting! Anyway, part of
this will involve attaching new bits to the mast - this sort of thing:


given the risks and complications I'd ask the manufacturer


NT


'Woss wrong 'wiv a few tiewraps?......
--
Tony Sayer

Chris wrote:
Lobster wrote:

It seems I will need to do a bit of riveting shortly, and I know nothing
about it...

Background is that my kids have got into sailing (something else I know
nothing about), and it has been decreed that Dad needs to upgrade the
rigging on their dinghy, which may prove interesting! Anyway, part of
this will involve attaching new bits to the mast - this sort of thing:

http://www.sailboats.co.uk/Product~Holt_Halyard_Cleat_Nylon_Topp_Mast_HA.130. html


which is apparently a lump of nylon a couple of inches long; the mast
being a hollow aluminium pole. This needs doing with rivets, I'm told.

So, what do I need?

Searching for 'rivet' at Screwfix, I find the following:
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?cId=102094&ts=70670&id=10068#

and
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?ts=71204&id=12009

Is that the right tool and parts I need!?

Right tool, wrong part (for this application). Corrosion is a big issue
on any boat - mild steel rivets (even if plated) will have a very
limited lifespan. Stainless steel fittings + aluminium mast + salt water
will also cause galvanic corrosion of the aluminium very quickly. Self
tappers will therefore become loose as the aluminium corrodes around
them. Stainless steel rivets will last longer than self tappers,
aluminium rivets will be the best option.

However - why is this extra cleat needed? It is a long time since I
sailed Toppers, but it is what is called a strict one design class. This
means that you are not allowed to change anything on the boat unless
specifically stated in the rules. The rules say:

Thanks for this, and for the other replies.

Sorry for any confusion, I guess I shouldn't have posted that particular
cleat as an example; I thought it would help my explanation rather
than totally cloud the issue, as has happened! I'm not actually fitting
that cleat at all; I'm buying (apparently) two kits to convert our
existing old Topper to centre-main (which I'm told is a good thing) and
at the same time fitting racing rigging, all of which is offially
approved and race-legal. I don't have any pics of the actual kit which
I'll be ordering, nor do I know exactly what the kit will contain, but
I'm told it will involve riveting various components to the mast and boom.

I'll know more when the kit (and instructions!) are in my hands; perhaps
I'd better wait till then. Just that I knew I'll be needing some
riveting kit, and wanted to order that in parallel. Seems it's more
complicated than I'd imagined, though!

David

"The3rd Earl Of Derby" wrote in message
. uk...

How's he supposed to get a rivet in the deepest recess, huh!

By using the correct tool?
You can get long nosed riveters.

For one or two you can probably slip some washers over the tang. ;-)

Lobster wrote:

Thanks for this, and for the other replies.

Sorry for any confusion, I guess I shouldn't have posted that particular
cleat as an example; I thought it would help my explanation rather than
totally cloud the issue, as has happened! I'm not actually fitting that
cleat at all; I'm buying (apparently) two kits to convert our existing
old Topper to centre-main (which I'm told is a good thing) and at the
same time fitting racing rigging, all of which is offially approved and
race-legal. I don't have any pics of the actual kit which I'll be
ordering, nor do I know exactly what the kit will contain, but I'm told
it will involve riveting various components to the mast and boom.

I'll know more when the kit (and instructions!) are in my hands; perhaps
I'd better wait till then. Just that I knew I'll be needing some
riveting kit, and wanted to order that in parallel. Seems it's more
complicated than I'd imagined, though!

Riveting of this nature is straightforward (IME) - the main things are
to ensure the hole you drill is the right size for the rivet, the rivet
is the correct length for the thickness of the materials and you hold
the materials being joined tightly together as you rivet. I would expect
that if instructions are not included with the kit they will be
available from the Topper class association (or via their forum).

I assume (perhaps incorrectly) from your OP that your kids are new to
sailing. Find me three sailors, and one will say centre main is best,
one will say aft main is best, one will say the 'Laser arrangement'
(basically a bit of both) is best. The reality is the difference is (for
many sailors) personal preference. IMO, aft main is easiest for a new
sailor. From the class rules, I'm guessing the other changes are
primarily to increase purchase on kicking strap, downhaul and outhaul.
The kits seem to be primarily low stretch ropes and high quality ball
bearing / ratchet blocks. None of these matter for beginner sailors (or
even intermediate level club sailors). At club level, practice and
training to be able to spot wind shifts, decide when to tack and keep
the boat level and working at its most efficient is vastly more
important. Reading the book 'Start to Win' by Eric Twiname:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/...040278-1403022

would (IMO) make a vastly bigger difference to their sailing.

If on the other hand your kids are vying to become the next Ben Ainslie,
feel free to ignore me :-).

Cheers

Chris

--
Cut along the dotted line to reply

Chris wrote:

Right tool, wrong part (for this application). Corrosion is a big issue
on any boat - mild steel rivets (even if plated) will have a very
limited lifespan. Stainless steel fittings + aluminium mast + salt water
will also cause galvanic corrosion of the aluminium very quickly.

According to my aircraft experience, stainless and ally are OK.

Self
tappers will therefore become loose as the aluminium corrodes around
them.

Only if the aluminium is allowed to. By dipping the fastener into an
interfay solution, the aluminium will be sealed to the atmosphere.

Stainless steel rivets will last longer than self tappers,

I have never come across these in the aerospace industry, though they
must exist.

aluminium rivets will be the best option.

I would doubt very much that they had the sheer or stress strength to do
the job.

Dave wrote:
Chris wrote:

Right tool, wrong part (for this application). Corrosion is a big
issue on any boat - mild steel rivets (even if plated) will have a
very limited lifespan. Stainless steel fittings + aluminium mast +
salt water will also cause galvanic corrosion of the aluminium very
quickly.

According to my aircraft experience, stainless and ally are OK.

According to my marine experience they are not ;-). 'Very quickly' was
an exaggeration (there are certainly many worse combinations of metals
for galvanic corrosion), however I have seen a number of instances where
stainless fasteners have pulled out of the aluminium masts / tubes they
have been fitted to.

Self tappers will therefore become loose as the aluminium corrodes
around them.

Only if the aluminium is allowed to. By dipping the fastener into an
interfay solution, the aluminium will be sealed to the atmosphere.

True, though I don't know how available interfay solutions are to the
diy market?

Stainless steel rivets will last longer than self tappers,

I have never come across these in the aerospace industry, though they
must exist.

They are available from yacht chandlers, and specialist tool / fixing
suppliers.


aluminium rivets will be the best option.

I would doubt very much that they had the sheer or stress strength to do
the job.

We are talking about attaching a plastic cleat to lightweight sailing
dinghy. The aluminium (alloy) rivet is not the weak link - the cleat
will fail first.

Cheers

Chris

--
Cut along the dotted line to reply

Lobster wrote:
It seems I will need to do a bit of riveting shortly, and I know
nothing about it...

Background is that my kids have got into sailing (something else I
know nothing about), and it has been decreed that Dad needs to upgrade the
rigging on their dinghy, which may prove interesting! Anyway, part of
this will involve attaching new bits to the mast - this sort of thing:

http://www.sailboats.co.uk/Product~Holt_Halyard_Cleat_Nylon_Topp_Mast_HA.130. html

which is apparently a lump of nylon a couple of inches long; the mast
being a hollow aluminium pole. This needs doing with rivets, I'm
told.
So, what do I need?

Searching for 'rivet' at Screwfix, I find the following:
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?cId=102094&ts=70670&id=10068#
and
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?ts=71204&id=12009

Is that the right tool and parts I need!?

Thanks
David

David

Try
rec.boats.building
and
uk.rec.sailing

Vj

On Sun, 26 Feb 2006 16:29:49 GMT, Lobster
wrote:

So, what do I need?

Don't use rivets through plastic components - you'll crack them.

Instead I'd rivet a nut insert into the tube, then screw into that. The
nuts (rivnuts and many other brands) are basically ready-threaded
hollow rivets. You put them in with the same sort of tool.

Watch for corrosion when rivettting, especially involving aluminium and
anywhere near boats. Use compatible rivets - talk to a chandlers.

When buying a pop-rivet gun, get a 3 jaw design, not a 2 jaw. There's
an extra size increment you can have, just from the grip, let alone the
effort needed. Air riveters are nice if you're doing a lot. Lazy tong
riveters are not.

Chris wrote:

I assume (perhaps incorrectly) from your OP that your kids are new to
sailing. Find me three sailors, and one will say centre main is best,
one will say aft main is best, one will say the 'Laser arrangement'
(basically a bit of both) is best. The reality is the difference is (for
many sailors) personal preference. IMO, aft main is easiest for a new
sailor. From the class rules, I'm guessing the other changes are
primarily to increase purchase on kicking strap, downhaul and outhaul.
The kits seem to be primarily low stretch ropes and high quality ball
bearing / ratchet blocks. None of these matter for beginner sailors (or
even intermediate level club sailors). At club level, practice and
training to be able to spot wind shifts, decide when to tack and keep
the boat level and working at its most efficient is vastly more
important.

Well, the kids are intermediate level; the elder one is doing inter-club
racing for the first time this season, so I've been detailed to fit
racing rigging in favour of the OEM stuff (which to answer someone
else's query as to why, gives you more control of the sail profile
AIUI). At the same time we decided that switching to centre main was a
good idea primarily because (a) the local club is currently converting
its own Toppers that way, and our kids use them a lot too; and (b) we've
found that when on holiday hiring dinghies, most seem to be centre main too.

Thanks
David

Chris wrote:
Dave wrote:

Chris wrote:


According to my aircraft experience, stainless and ally are OK.


According to my marine experience they are not ;-). 'Very quickly' was
an exaggeration (there are certainly many worse combinations of metals
for galvanic corrosion), however I have seen a number of instances where
stainless fasteners have pulled out of the aluminium masts / tubes they
have been fitted to.

Yes, I can see why.
I wish I had kept all my paperwork on this subject instead of filing it
in the round out tray.


True, though I don't know how available interfay solutions are to the
diy market?

What alternatives are there? Could an everyday gunge do the job. How
about silicone glue, the type used in making fish tanks?
My original worry was that the mast would corrode from inside out, hence
to do the job the right way, so that it does not happen.

aluminium rivets will be the best option.


I would doubt very much that they had the sheer or stress strength to
do the job.


We are talking about attaching a plastic cleat to lightweight sailing
dinghy. The aluminium (alloy) rivet is not the weak link - the cleat
will fail first.

I would go for the aluminium rivet to fail first :-)
As you say, it will only be holding a piece of plastic onto the mast.

Regards

Dave

Lobster wrote:
It seems I will need to do a bit of riveting shortly, and I know nothing
about it...

Well, thanks very much for all the advice - time to fess up...!

I've just ordered all the bits of string and pulley kits etc over the
phone, and I asked about the riveting issue. The nice lady told me that
to install the kit I wouldn't need any rivets at all in fact! (just
drill out two old ones). Evidently I had misunderstood what the bloke
at the sailing club had told me.

Oh well, I learned something about rivets for the future I suppose :-)

David

On Sun, 26 Feb 2006 17:25:24 GMT, Lobster
wrote:

I assumed there was good reason not to use self-tappers

Self tappers won't hold in aluminium. Their thread form is too coarse
and aluminium is too soft. The "self tappers" for use in aluminium are
something like a "Tap-tite" screw that looks more like a normal fine
machine screw, until you put it under a microscope and see the
sharp-edged thread it uses. Even then you're better with a riveted
join, or a riveted thread insert.

In article ,
Andy Dingley wrote:

Self tappers won't hold in aluminium. Their thread form is too
coarse and aluminium is too soft. The "self tappers" for use in
aluminium are something like a "Tap-tite" screw that looks more
like a normal fine machine screw, until you put it under a
microscope and see the sharp-edged thread it uses.

I thought Taptites had a non-round profile, being
tri-lobed. You can feel it if you spin the thread
between your fingers. The idea is that the profile
*forms* a thread in soft materials, rather than doing
a full cut.

I used to have a set of taps for threading holes in
extruded aluminium heatsinks (or other ductile materials.
They were tri-lobed profile, with no flutes, producing
very little swarf when forming the thread.

--
Tony Williams.

Lobster wrote:

I've just ordered all the bits of string and pulley kits etc over the
phone, and I asked about the riveting issue. The nice lady told me
that to install the kit I wouldn't need any rivets at all in fact!
(just drill out two old ones). Evidently I had misunderstood what
the bloke at the sailing club had told me.

Buggeration - the nice lady lied; the kit which she's finally sent me
*does* in fact need a component riveting to the mast, so I'm in the
market for a rivet gun after all.

Andy Dingley wrote:

When buying a pop-rivet gun, get a 3 jaw design, not a 2 jaw.
There's an extra size increment you can have, just from the grip, let
alone the effort needed.

Thanks for that advice Andy: now, as a total rivetting numpty, is it
obvious whether a river gun has a 3 or 2 jaw design? Never handled one
before. What about the Screwfix one which I cited previously?
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?cId=102094&ts=70670&id=10068#

Thanks
David