I'm currently rewiring my kitchen. Fortunately, I had the foresight to
buy a 100m reel of twin and earth just before the new colours were
brought in, but I've been thinking: what if I hadn't done this, what
would be the correct process for running a new ring main to the kitchen
to replace the shonky ~70's installation (complete with no earth
sheathing in the sockets, cables set directly into concrete floor about
15mm below the surface, sockets screwed to skirting-board about 20mm
above ground level, etc)? Is it simply not possible to DIY this type of
work legally any more?

And, as a secondary question; given that my opinion of NICEIC, and those
responsible for these additional layers of bureaucracy, is essentially
"**** 'em. **** 'em vigorously, right in the eyes." what problems would
I have selling the house if I carried the work out myself, in accordance
with 16th edition IEE regs (of which I do possess a copy, and which all
of my work materially conforms to), with the new T&E colours, but didn't
have all the correct bits of paper (whatever the correct bits of paper
are...)?

Couldn't I just claim that I was never given any magic bits of paper,
get an "approved" electrician in to check everything measures up, and
issue me with the appropriate paper? What are the magic bits of paper?
Just an invoice from an "approved" electrician - or some form of pretty
certificate?

Forgive me if this has been covered before - I've googled for NICEIC and
read zillions of the resultant threads, but none of the stuff I read
answered these questions. Feel free to point me at an appropriate
thread/URL on google if this has been done to death already.

Cheers.

On Fri, 10 Feb 2006 03:32:11 +0000, A Bloke
wrote:

Forgive me if this has been covered before - I've googled for NICEIC and
read zillions of the resultant threads, but none of the stuff I read
answered these questions. Feel free to point me at an appropriate
thread/URL on google if this has been done to death already.

Oops, never mind. The magic incantation I need for google was "Part P",
not "NICEIC". It seems that Part P is being largely ignored and treated
with the contempt it so rightfully deserves. Smashing. This makes me
proud to be British.

A Bloke wrote:

I'm currently rewiring my kitchen. Fortunately, I had the foresight to
buy a 100m reel of twin and earth just before the new colours were
brought in, but I've been thinking: what if I hadn't done this, what

Not that important really, old colours were allowed after part P and new
colours were allowed before it - so the colour does not actually
definitively date the work.

would be the correct process for running a new ring main to the kitchen
to replace the shonky ~70's installation (complete with no earth
sheathing in the sockets, cables set directly into concrete floor about
15mm below the surface, sockets screwed to skirting-board about 20mm
above ground level, etc)? Is it simply not possible to DIY this type of
work legally any more?

It is entirely legal and possible. The correct way would be to submit a
building notice application to the local building control department and
pay the required fee[1] and make the work available for inspection at
the required times.

[1] there is much controversy here and differing approaches between
councils. The orifice of the deputy prime minister (the low lives
responsible for "part taking the pee") have produced a memo stating that
the inspection costs ought not be passed onto the consumer. However many
councils are seeking to do so, resulting extra charges over and above
that of the BNA - sometimes £200 or more extra.

And, as a secondary question; given that my opinion of NICEIC, and those
responsible for these additional layers of bureaucracy, is essentially
"**** 'em. **** 'em vigorously, right in the eyes." what problems would

Can't say I have ever felt that charitable toward them... but to each
his own! ;-)

I have selling the house if I carried the work out myself, in accordance
with 16th edition IEE regs (of which I do possess a copy, and which all
of my work materially conforms to), with the new T&E colours, but didn't
have all the correct bits of paper (whatever the correct bits of paper
are...)?

The potential problems are the theoretical ones of not complying with
building regulations (5K fine and all that) - although I get the
impression that building control only pursue that sort of sanction in
the most dire cases of illegal bodgery where other forms of negotiation
have proved fruitless (any BCOs care to comment?). If the work is all to
standard then I can't see them getting too excited about it.

The second issue is that of paperwork. Chances are this will pan out
much like the equally daft bit of legislation requiring replacement
windows/doors to be notified (or installed by relevant quango member) -
conveyancers may be hot on it for a year or so and then will lose
interest. Time will tell.

Couldn't I just claim that I was never given any magic bits of paper,

You could - probably does not make any difference...

get an "approved" electrician in to check everything measures up, and

Possibly

issue me with the appropriate paper? What are the magic bits of paper?
Just an invoice from an "approved" electrician - or some form of pretty
certificate?

Not sure - test results from electrician and completion notice from
building control perhaps.

Forgive me if this has been covered before - I've googled for NICEIC and
read zillions of the resultant threads, but none of the stuff I read
answered these questions. Feel free to point me at an appropriate
thread/URL on google if this has been done to death already.

Do a google search of this group on "Part P" - be prepared for a long read!


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In article ,
John Rumm writes:
[1] there is much controversy here and differing approaches between
councils. The orifice of the deputy prime minister (the low lives
responsible for "part taking the pee") have produced a memo stating that
the inspection costs ought not be passed onto the consumer. However many

It's not that the inspection costs ought not be passed onto the consumer,
it's that this is what the building notice cost is already paying for.
Therefore, the council is not permitted to ask you to pay again for an
inspection, nor is it permitted to ask you to get an electrical company
to inspect the installation. The inspections were supposed to be done
by the BCO when they visit, like they do for other such work. Most
councils seem to think they need to use Part P registered electricians,
but this isn't so. They can even accept your own inspection if they
think you are competent, and this has certainly been done in some cases.

--
Andrew Gabriel

The BC office I work in has not taken anybody to court (for a B Regs issue)
for 15 years or so. The biggest change in recent has been people not being
able to sell their houses because they didn't have a completion certificate.
Owners carrying out works large and small seem very anxious to get the bit
of paper and appear to aware of the problems they'll have without it.
Part P is still relatively new, and we haven't had anybody trying to
regularise (ie get a certificate after the work has finished having not told
us beforehand) electrical works, and not sure they could do without exposing
cable runs.
The other option is some form of indemnity insurance, certainly it seems
available for extensions without permission, I wonder if it would work for
Part P.

IanC





"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
A Bloke wrote:

I'm currently rewiring my kitchen. Fortunately, I had the foresight to
buy a 100m reel of twin and earth just before the new colours were
brought in, but I've been thinking: what if I hadn't done this, what

Not that important really, old colours were allowed after part P and new
colours were allowed before it - so the colour does not actually
definitively date the work.

would be the correct process for running a new ring main to the kitchen
to replace the shonky ~70's installation (complete with no earth
sheathing in the sockets, cables set directly into concrete floor about
15mm below the surface, sockets screwed to skirting-board about 20mm
above ground level, etc)? Is it simply not possible to DIY this type of
work legally any more?

It is entirely legal and possible. The correct way would be to submit a
building notice application to the local building control department and
pay the required fee[1] and make the work available for inspection at the
required times.

[1] there is much controversy here and differing approaches between
councils. The orifice of the deputy prime minister (the low lives
responsible for "part taking the pee") have produced a memo stating that
the inspection costs ought not be passed onto the consumer. However many
councils are seeking to do so, resulting extra charges over and above that
of the BNA - sometimes £200 or more extra.

And, as a secondary question; given that my opinion of NICEIC, and those
responsible for these additional layers of bureaucracy, is essentially
"**** 'em. **** 'em vigorously, right in the eyes." what problems would

Can't say I have ever felt that charitable toward them... but to each his
own! ;-)

I have selling the house if I carried the work out myself, in accordance
with 16th edition IEE regs (of which I do possess a copy, and which all
of my work materially conforms to), with the new T&E colours, but didn't
have all the correct bits of paper (whatever the correct bits of paper
are...)?

The potential problems are the theoretical ones of not complying with
building regulations (5K fine and all that) - although I get the
impression that building control only pursue that sort of sanction in the
most dire cases of illegal bodgery where other forms of negotiation have
proved fruitless (any BCOs care to comment?). If the work is all to
standard then I can't see them getting too excited about it.

The second issue is that of paperwork. Chances are this will pan out much
like the equally daft bit of legislation requiring replacement
windows/doors to be notified (or installed by relevant quango member) -
conveyancers may be hot on it for a year or so and then will lose
interest. Time will tell.

Couldn't I just claim that I was never given any magic bits of paper,

You could - probably does not make any difference...

get an "approved" electrician in to check everything measures up, and

Possibly

issue me with the appropriate paper? What are the magic bits of paper?
Just an invoice from an "approved" electrician - or some form of pretty
certificate?

Not sure - test results from electrician and completion notice from
building control perhaps.

Forgive me if this has been covered before - I've googled for NICEIC and
read zillions of the resultant threads, but none of the stuff I read
answered these questions. Feel free to point me at an appropriate
thread/URL on google if this has been done to death already.

Do a google search of this group on "Part P" - be prepared for a long
read!


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Therefore, the council is not permitted to ask you to pay again for an
inspection, nor is it permitted to ask you to get an electrical company
to inspect the installation.

True, but each Council sets its fees, so if it structures its fees correctly
it can charge for the cost of electrical inspections. Whether the
additional bit as required by some authorities is "illegal" I don't believe
has been tested, it's just the subject of an ODPM memo which many LA's are
ignoring.

IanC

On Fri, 10 Feb 2006 04:03:58 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

[snip, very comprehensive reply]

Thanks John, that's much appreciated.

Do a google search of this group on "Part P" - be prepared for a long read!

Yep, I've managed to do that now and I see it really has been done to
death! I am going to continue to completely ignore part P, do the work I
know I am competent and able to do, and deal with any "issues" that are
raised if/when I come to sell the house. This is very much a "thin end
of the wedge" thing and I think that the more people (both professional
and DIY) who "forget" to play along with the paper-trail, the better for
everyone in the long run.

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
John Rumm writes:
[1] there is much controversy here and differing approaches between
councils. The orifice of the deputy prime minister (the low lives
responsible for "part taking the pee") have produced a memo stating that
the inspection costs ought not be passed onto the consumer. However many

It's not that the inspection costs ought not be passed onto the consumer,
it's that this is what the building notice cost is already paying for.
Therefore, the council is not permitted to ask you to pay again for an
inspection, nor is it permitted to ask you to get an electrical company
to inspect the installation. The inspections were supposed to be done
by the BCO when they visit, like they do for other such work. Most
councils seem to think they need to use Part P registered electricians,
but this isn't so. They can even accept your own inspection if they
think you are competent, and this has certainly been done in some cases.

Apparently East riding of Yorkshire have employed a Part P BCO. Whether just
one can cope with the flood (not) of notifications is anyones guess

River Tramp wrote:

The other option is some form of indemnity insurance, certainly it seems
available for extensions without permission, I wonder if it would work for
Part P.

Another option would presumably be for the vendor to simply state that
work was completed by them to an acceptable standard but without the
required paperwork. They would be happy to discuss what was done with
potential buyers or their expert agents should it be required, and
additionally the buyer may authorise their own checks (at their own
expense) should the feel the need.

I can't see many people balking at a house purchase over a lack of
certification for wiring. Especially when you considder that this is the
situation they have always been in until now anyway - and even if they
have paperwork it does not tell them anything about the state of the
wiring prior to the current regulations taking effect.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

John

I don't think the problem is the purchasers, more being picked up by a
surveyor or the mortgage company.

I wonder if it's the sort of thing surveyors are going to look for
automatically with the home buyers report.

IanC




"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
River Tramp wrote:

The other option is some form of indemnity insurance, certainly it seems
available for extensions without permission, I wonder if it would work
for Part P.

Another option would presumably be for the vendor to simply state that
work was completed by them to an acceptable standard but without the
required paperwork. They would be happy to discuss what was done with
potential buyers or their expert agents should it be required, and
additionally the buyer may authorise their own checks (at their own
expense) should the feel the need.

I can't see many people balking at a house purchase over a lack of
certification for wiring. Especially when you considder that this is the
situation they have always been in until now anyway - and even if they
have paperwork it does not tell them anything about the state of the
wiring prior to the current regulations taking effect.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

John Rumm wrote:
River Tramp wrote:

The other option is some form of indemnity insurance, certainly it seems
available for extensions without permission, I wonder if it would work for
Part P.

Another option would presumably be for the vendor to simply state that
work was completed by them to an acceptable standard but without the
required paperwork. They would be happy to discuss what was done with
potential buyers or their expert agents should it be required, and
additionally the buyer may authorise their own checks (at their own
expense) should the feel the need.

I can't see many people balking at a house purchase over a lack of
certification for wiring. Especially when you considder that this is the
situation they have always been in until now anyway - and even if they
have paperwork it does not tell them anything about the state of the
wiring prior to the current regulations taking effect.

Then again there are always some with no sense, easily scared by what
are basically CYA clauses in surveys. Plus lenders tend to behave
stupid to try and cover themselves against every eventuality.

Then there are people who are really quite lost. I know one who was
scared by the fact that the DHW header tank was above her kids bedroom.
But no, she wasnt worried about the subsidence!

But after someone's paid for 2 surveys they soon grow up. Usually.


NT

Christian McArdle wrote:
They can even accept your own inspection if they think you are
competent, and this has certainly been done in some cases.


Indeed, this is what I'm expecting with my loft conversion, provided that
getting my equipment recalibrated (out of date by a few months) is cheaper
than buying an inspection.

I suspect that given a certificate with all the right numbers on, they'll
just rubber stamp it. For this purpose, I might even add my (electronic
engineering) BEng to my name for the first time in my life.

The current agreement with my BCO is that I'll let them know what I'm
doing when, document it with photos, and they'll drop round for the odd
inspection. I'll then hand them all the test certificates at the end,
and they'll get an electrician round to take a look before signing it
off. Obviously it took a bit of talking to them to reassure them I had
some idea what I was doing.

So far they haven't actually been round "because there isn't much to see
on a CU change anyway". Given I paid them the grand total of 100+VAT, I
seriously doubt they'll actually get an electrician round at any point,
and it surely won't be for a full PIR. Funnily enough, I stuck MEng on
the BNA too. It wasn't electrical engineering though...

Ben

"Ben Blaukopf" wrote in message
...
Christian McArdle wrote:
They can even accept your own inspection if they think you are
competent, and this has certainly been done in some cases.

Given I paid them the grand total of 100+VAT, I
seriously doubt they'll actually get an electrician round at any point,
and it surely won't be for a full PIR.....
Ben

I had a builder in doing some general building work and he does electrical
work as well. The house needed completely rewiring so he did it for us and
we complied with Part P and got the BCO involved.

I paid the sum of £58.75 to the council, who then employed a local firm of
electricians to do the tests and inspections - and it was a thorough test
and inspection. The guy unscrewed various switches and sockets to test for
numerous things, even tightness of terminal screws. He was there about 6
hours in total.

Then they billed the council £200.

This was the system for about 2 months until the council realized that they
couldn't afford to do it this way. They now use one of their own employees
to do Part P tests and inspections, and the price that the public pay is
still the same at £58.75.

Mogweed

It may be above board and legal but not necessarily helpful. Certainly
my council will accept the Building control notice but say they have no
way to issue a completion certificate, in which case it's better never
to apply.

Stephen

Christian McArdle wrote:
Yep, I've managed to do that now and I see it really has been done to
death! I am going to continue to completely ignore part P, do the work I
know I am competent and able to do, and deal with any "issues" that are
raised if/when I come to sell the house.

Just get a periodic inspection report before you sell. Most buyers would be
happy with that. It's more than they usually get. Alternatively, do it
properly and submit a building notice beforehand. That way is entirely above
board and legal.

Christian.