Morning All,

So - SWMBO has expressed a keen interest in looking at kitchens in the new
year sales...and i have to admit that I've just about had enough of the
"architects special" that we have left over from the former owners
"efforts".

This raises some questions.

Firstly - the boiler. It's right in the inside corner of the kitchen under
the chimney. Old floor mount Ideal Mexico Slimiline CF45/55 (can't recall
without whipping the door off and it's a bit like arkwrights till so won't
do that just at the mo - but my mind says the 45k BTU one). It's ~ 15 years
old, and still in good working order, but, not particularly well located for
the sort of refit of the kitchen we both have in mind.

So - the question has to be asked - replacements....what *are* the options
these days?

I've read and re-read different versions of the "rules" now and am as clued
up as before I started (ie I know what appears to be nothing!)

The perfect solution would be a floor mount that goes in it's place and
means next to no changes anywhere (apart from perhaps converting from open
vented to sealed and losing the tanks in the roofspace) - the hw cylinder is
only 3 yrs old and most of the rads are only a couple of years old with
every one having thermostatic valves and being in good order. *BUT* I guess
that you can't fit a normal boiler these days - and the location of the
existing one would mean that any of the "modern" replacements would be more
or less impossible to fit in with the pipework etc.

If it has to move - it's to the complete opposite side of the house
Floors up, ceilings down, outside wall job and that's not attractive either
as - owing to the age of the house/location of windows - it's would be sat
on a wall between two windows standing out something like a sore thumb an
dprobably take 3 days to re-jig the pipework never mind the new floors
needed as a result.

Anyway - suggestions anyone? ISTR someone (Andy Gabriel?) suggested a while
back that he Keston might be a good unit to look at owing to the ease of
routing the breathe/exhaust pipes and their plastic nature - but I can't
recall what was asked at the time - and the boilers market seems to have had
an attack of EU regulation since then!

On the kitchens subject - anyone care to suggest any suppliers of "proper"
kitchens (cherry or oak doors preferably as they seem to be the best
"visual" fit for the house). We looked at a local kitchen studio place
yesterday and got the feeling that the "job" done by them would cost
something of the order of £20k - which is about £15k labour and £5k
materials at vastly inflated prices - so - anyone got any ideas??

Happy Christmas one and all......

Cheers
dan.

On Sat, 24 Dec 2005 10:06:33 GMT, "Dan delaMare-Lyon"
wrote:

Morning All,

So - SWMBO has expressed a keen interest in looking at kitchens in the new
year sales...and i have to admit that I've just about had enough of the
"architects special" that we have left over from the former owners
"efforts".

This raises some questions.

Firstly - the boiler. It's right in the inside corner of the kitchen under
the chimney. Old floor mount Ideal Mexico Slimiline CF45/55 (can't recall
without whipping the door off and it's a bit like arkwrights till so won't
do that just at the mo - but my mind says the 45k BTU one). It's ~ 15 years
old, and still in good working order, but, not particularly well located for
the sort of refit of the kitchen we both have in mind.

So - the question has to be asked - replacements....what *are* the options
these days?

I've read and re-read different versions of the "rules" now and am as clued
up as before I started (ie I know what appears to be nothing!)

The short version is that unless there are extenuating circumstances,
you have to fit a condensing boiler. There are details of what those
can be on www.odpm.gov.uk Type the keywords "boiler assessment" in
the search engine.

Based on what you've said, I doubt if there's an exemption, and a
condensing model would be desirable anyway.



The perfect solution would be a floor mount that goes in it's place and
means next to no changes anywhere (apart from perhaps converting from open
vented to sealed and losing the tanks in the roofspace) - the hw cylinder is
only 3 yrs old and most of the rads are only a couple of years old with
every one having thermostatic valves and being in good order. *BUT* I guess
that you can't fit a normal boiler these days - and the location of the
existing one would mean that any of the "modern" replacements would be more
or less impossible to fit in with the pipework etc.

There are floor standing models such as the Worcester Bosch Highflow
which is a storage combi product.




If it has to move - it's to the complete opposite side of the house
Floors up, ceilings down, outside wall job and that's not attractive either
as - owing to the age of the house/location of windows - it's would be sat
on a wall between two windows standing out something like a sore thumb an
dprobably take 3 days to re-jig the pipework never mind the new floors
needed as a result.

Anyway - suggestions anyone? ISTR someone (Andy Gabriel?) suggested a while
back that he Keston might be a good unit to look at owing to the ease of
routing the breathe/exhaust pipes and their plastic nature - but I can't
recall what was asked at the time - and the boilers market seems to have had
an attack of EU regulation since then!

This is one, and there are a number now that can use pairs of 50mm
high temperature waste pipe as air supply and flue.

Had you thought about the loft as a place to install the boiler? or
the airing cupboard?

I would have thought that it is worth going to a little effort to gain
what amounts to an appliance footprint in the kitchen.....



On the kitchens subject - anyone care to suggest any suppliers of "proper"
kitchens (cherry or oak doors preferably as they seem to be the best
"visual" fit for the house). We looked at a local kitchen studio place
yesterday and got the feeling that the "job" done by them would cost
something of the order of £20k - which is about £15k labour and £5k
materials at vastly inflated prices - so - anyone got any ideas??

I think that the first thing to do is to decide roughly on what you
are willing to spend - although that may be iterative based on once
you have an idea of cost ranges from talking to people and looking
around.

Keep in mind that the sale discounts really are a con. A high list
price is set by the volume suppliers and they then run pretty much
back to back sales that must end this month. The sale price is the
real price - compare that against things that are not on sale.

The next part is to consider the degree of individuality, attention to
detail and design flexibility you want to have. I think that you are
likely to get that either by very thorough researching yourself in
terms of design ideas and materials (and it can be very time
consuming) or by using a local kitchen design firm (shop around for
these).

You can find better quality materials and fittings in places that
supply the mid to high end kitchen trade than you ever will in DIY
stores, so if you are planning for this to be a DIY exercise, then I
would suggest looking for those. Some say that they will only sell to
the trade, so one may have to print some headed paper to get in the
door. Cash usually works.

I had a complete kitchen remodelling done about 4 years ago and
selected one from a number of local companies, partly based on
references and partly the design ideas and care taken to achieve what
was wanted. I guess that we went through three or four fundamental
design ideas and then many hours of going through details of fittings,
materials suppliers and so on. This was an open book in that list
prices and typical discounts were known, so margins etc. were easy
enough to work out. They weren't the cheapest or the most expensive
either, but have a good reputation for quality of installation,
materials and service. I value those things quite highly, so was
willing to pay for that to a degree.

I would avoid any of the national operations. These are the ones like
Kitchens Direct, etc. who are playing the numbers game.
Coincidentally, I had a call from one of them yesterday afternoon - I
had forgotten to register one of my ISDN numbers on the PABX with the
TPS. The initial call was from an Indian call centre, followed by
somebody from the UK. The story was that they had "surveyors" in my
(area code) area yesterday and would I like a free, with no obligation
survey and design. He added that they weren't necessarily trying to
sell me anything, but that we could have the ideas ready for when we
were ready to do something. Not having much to do, I played him
along for about 15 minutes. There were the obvious things that he
wanted to be sure that both of us were here "so that they could get
the design right". Sure. I asked him how long they typically took
to do a design, and was told that sometimes it could take as much as
an hour, so that was why it was important to have us both there.
I let him spin his yarn before asking whether they could do something
equivalent to a Smallbone kitchen. He assured me that they could.
I wished him a happy Christmas and suggested that he might like to do
a little market research over the holiday period.

The best advice I can give you is not to be swayed by sales or offers
but to take time over it. Whether you are going to spend £5k or £25k,
you will be glad that you did.




--

..andy

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 24 Dec 2005 10:06:33 GMT, "Dan delaMare-Lyon"
wrote:


Cheers Andy!

Gets me thinking...

"Dan delaMare-Lyon" wrote in message
...
Morning All,

So - SWMBO has expressed a keen interest in looking at kitchens in the new
year sales...and i have to admit that I've just about had enough of the
"architects special" that we have left over from the former owners
"efforts".

This raises some questions.

Firstly - the boiler. It's right in the inside corner of the kitchen
under the chimney. Old floor mount Ideal Mexico Slimiline CF45/55 (can't
recall without whipping the door off and it's a bit like arkwrights till
so won't do that just at the mo - but my mind says the 45k BTU one). It's
~ 15 years old, and still in good working order, but, not particularly
well located for the sort of refit of the kitchen we both have in mind.

So - the question has to be asked - replacements....what *are* the options
these days?

I've read and re-read different versions of the "rules" now and am as
clued up as before I started (ie I know what appears to be nothing!)

The perfect solution would be a floor mount that goes in it's place and
means next to no changes anywhere (apart from perhaps converting from open
vented to sealed and losing the tanks in the roofspace) - the hw cylinder
is only 3 yrs old and most of the rads are only a couple of years old with
every one having thermostatic valves and being in good order. *BUT* I
guess that you can't fit a normal boiler these days - and the location of
the existing one would mean that any of the "modern" replacements would be
more or less impossible to fit in with the pipework etc.

If it has to move - it's to the complete opposite side of the house
Floors up, ceilings down, outside wall job and that's not attractive
either as - owing to the age of the house/location of windows - it's would
be sat on a wall between two windows standing out something like a sore
thumb an dprobably take 3 days to re-jig the pipework never mind the new
floors needed as a result.

Anyway - suggestions anyone? ISTR someone (Andy Gabriel?) suggested a
while back that he Keston might be a good unit to look at owing to the
ease of routing the breathe/exhaust pipes and their plastic nature - but I
can't recall what was asked at the time - and the boilers market seems to
have had an attack of EU regulation since then!

On the kitchens subject - anyone care to suggest any suppliers of "proper"
kitchens (cherry or oak doors preferably as they seem to be the best
"visual" fit for the house). We looked at a local kitchen studio place
yesterday and got the feeling that the "job" done by them would cost
something of the order of £20k - which is about £15k labour and £5k
materials at vastly inflated prices - so - anyone got any ideas??

Happy Christmas one and all......

Cheers
dan.

My deepest sympathies--I have been through a similar exercise.
It's time for a new boiler just admit it and get a few quotes and ideas from
plumbers.
Buy the kitchen you want and if you do not want to diy then get a local
joiner to fit it

In article ,
Rupert wrote:
Buy the kitchen you want and if you do not want to diy then get a local
joiner to fit it

IMHO the quality of the fitting is far more important than the quality of
the units themselves - even shed ones can be pretty good.

--
*Is it true that cannibals don't eat clowns because they taste funny?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...

I've read and re-read different versions of the "rules" now and am as
clued
up as before I started (ie I know what appears to be nothing!)

The short version is that unless there are extenuating circumstances,
you have to fit a condensing boiler. There are details of what those
can be on www.odpm.gov.uk Type the keywords "boiler assessment" in
the search engine.

Based on what you've said, I doubt if there's an exemption, and a
condensing model would be desirable anyway.

I don't doubt that condensing would be "agreeable" (as in more efficient) -
it's whether or not it involves so much work and labour that any potential
saving frmo having the condensing until would be vastly outweighed by the
changes needed elsewhere...?!

The perfect solution would be a floor mount that goes in it's place and
means next to no changes anywhere (apart from perhaps converting from open
vented to sealed and losing the tanks in the roofspace) - the hw cylinder
is
only 3 yrs old and most of the rads are only a couple of years old with
every one having thermostatic valves and being in good order. *BUT* I
guess
that you can't fit a normal boiler these days - and the location of the
existing one would mean that any of the "modern" replacements would be
more
or less impossible to fit in with the pipework etc.

There are floor standing models such as the Worcester Bosch Highflow
which is a storage combi product.

Hmm - I'll have a look at that - thanks.

Anyway - suggestions anyone? ISTR someone (Andy Gabriel?) suggested a
while
back that he Keston might be a good unit to look at owing to the ease of
routing the breathe/exhaust pipes and their plastic nature - but I can't
recall what was asked at the time - and the boilers market seems to have
had
an attack of EU regulation since then!

This is one, and there are a number now that can use pairs of 50mm
high temperature waste pipe as air supply and flue.

Reading back actually - Andy, it was you who suggested this one originall -
finally found the post!

Had you thought about the loft as a place to install the boiler? or
the airing cupboard?

Loft - yse thought about it, but SWMBO is worried about having it up there -
plus - as it's just battens and slates, no felt in there, it's rather
draughty and tends to get a little damp (not damp but feels damp and cold on
wet days I think is what I actually mean) - I'd be worried that it would
rtificaily age the boiler - but - if the tanks in the roof space were to go
it would be a perfect place to put it as all the pipes are already up there!

Airing Cupboard is in the little'uns room. It's got the hw cylinder and
controls etc in it at the moment and I'd be worried for her safety (albeit
probably unnecessarily) - but the question still arises - how do you get air
to it/from it if you put it there I guess.

I would have thought that it is worth going to a little effort to gain
what amounts to an appliance footprint in the kitchen.....

Well this is a slimiline that's in there at the moment so between 300 and
450 mm wide - yes it would be nice to be shot of it - but equally if to be
shot of it costs as much as the raw materials for the kitchen.....

I think that the first thing to do is to decide roughly on what you
are willing to spend - although that may be iterative based on once
you have an idea of cost ranges from talking to people and looking
around.

Keep in mind that the sale discounts really are a con. A high list
price is set by the volume suppliers and they then run pretty much
back to back sales that must end this month. The sale price is the
real price - compare that against things that are not on sale.

The next part is to consider the degree of individuality, attention to
detail and design flexibility you want to have. I think that you are
likely to get that either by very thorough researching yourself in
terms of design ideas and materials (and it can be very time
consuming) or by using a local kitchen design firm (shop around for
these).

You can find better quality materials and fittings in places that
supply the mid to high end kitchen trade than you ever will in DIY
stores, so if you are planning for this to be a DIY exercise, then I
would suggest looking for those. Some say that they will only sell to
the trade, so one may have to print some headed paper to get in the
door. Cash usually works.

I had a complete kitchen remodelling done about 4 years ago and
selected one from a number of local companies, partly based on
references and partly the design ideas and care taken to achieve what
was wanted. I guess that we went through three or four fundamental
design ideas and then many hours of going through details of fittings,
materials suppliers and so on. This was an open book in that list
prices and typical discounts were known, so margins etc. were easy
enough to work out. They weren't the cheapest or the most expensive
either, but have a good reputation for quality of installation,
materials and service. I value those things quite highly, so was
willing to pay for that to a degree.

I would avoid any of the national operations. These are the ones like
Kitchens Direct, etc. who are playing the numbers game.
Coincidentally, I had a call from one of them yesterday afternoon - I
had forgotten to register one of my ISDN numbers on the PABX with the
TPS. The initial call was from an Indian call centre, followed by
somebody from the UK. The story was that they had "surveyors" in my
(area code) area yesterday and would I like a free, with no obligation
survey and design. He added that they weren't necessarily trying to
sell me anything, but that we could have the ideas ready for when we
were ready to do something. Not having much to do, I played him
along for about 15 minutes. There were the obvious things that he
wanted to be sure that both of us were here "so that they could get
the design right". Sure. I asked him how long they typically took
to do a design, and was told that sometimes it could take as much as
an hour, so that was why it was important to have us both there.
I let him spin his yarn before asking whether they could do something
equivalent to a Smallbone kitchen. He assured me that they could.
I wished him a happy Christmas and suggested that he might like to do
a little market research over the holiday period.

The best advice I can give you is not to be swayed by sales or offers
but to take time over it. Whether you are going to spend £5k or £25k,
you will be glad that you did.

Ta - will see what we can come up with on this front. It will probably be a
DIY 'cept gas works and sparks, plus I'm not doing the worktop jointing -
got on badly last time so it can go to a mate who is gifted in that area....

Cheers
dan.

"Rupert" wrote in message
...

So - SWMBO has expressed a keen interest in looking at kitchens in the
new year sales...and i have to admit that I've just about had enough of
the "architects special" that we have left over from the former owners
"efforts".

My deepest sympathies--I have been through a similar exercise.
It's time for a new boiler just admit it and get a few quotes and ideas
from plumbers.

Yup - realising that now - but I have to say 24 hours on and I'm a lot less
scared at the work to be done - thanks largely to Andy Hall and his
suggestion about using the loft

Buy the kitchen you want and if you do not want to diy then get a local
joiner to fit it

Ta

Merry xmas one and all!

Cheers
dan.

On Sun, 25 Dec 2005 12:04:01 GMT, "Dan delaMare-Lyon"
wrote:

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .

I've read and re-read different versions of the "rules" now and am as
clued
up as before I started (ie I know what appears to be nothing!)

The short version is that unless there are extenuating circumstances,
you have to fit a condensing boiler. There are details of what those
can be on www.odpm.gov.uk Type the keywords "boiler assessment" in
the search engine.

Based on what you've said, I doubt if there's an exemption, and a
condensing model would be desirable anyway.

I don't doubt that condensing would be "agreeable" (as in more efficient) -
it's whether or not it involves so much work and labour that any potential
saving frmo having the condensing until would be vastly outweighed by the
changes needed elsewhere...?!

There's very little in it, Dan.

I presume that the current boiler is a conventional flue? Let's
assume you stayed with a floor mount in the kitchen There aren't
many conventional flue models left on the market. There's a broader
range of room sealed and fan flue, and as far as I can tell, all
condensing models are fan flue. Given that situation, unless you
replace like with like, you would have to change the flue anyway.

The only remaining issue is to provision for the condensate drain.
Generally in a kitchen this should not be an issue. Presumably you
can get access to a waste pipe, a soil stack or an outside gully?

Take a look through the assessment rules. You might be able to find a
justification for not going condensing if you look hard, but I would
expect it to be difficult from what you've described. Of course, you
may be able to find a fitter willing to bend the rules, but that's
another matter.



The perfect solution would be a floor mount that goes in it's place and
means next to no changes anywhere (apart from perhaps converting from open
vented to sealed and losing the tanks in the roofspace) - the hw cylinder
is
only 3 yrs old and most of the rads are only a couple of years old with
every one having thermostatic valves and being in good order. *BUT* I
guess
that you can't fit a normal boiler these days - and the location of the
existing one would mean that any of the "modern" replacements would be
more
or less impossible to fit in with the pipework etc.

There are floor standing models such as the Worcester Bosch Highflow
which is a storage combi product.

Hmm - I'll have a look at that - thanks.

There are a couple of others such as the Powermax.


Anyway - suggestions anyone? ISTR someone (Andy Gabriel?) suggested a
while
back that he Keston might be a good unit to look at owing to the ease of
routing the breathe/exhaust pipes and their plastic nature - but I can't
recall what was asked at the time - and the boilers market seems to have
had
an attack of EU regulation since then!

This is one, and there are a number now that can use pairs of 50mm
high temperature waste pipe as air supply and flue.

Reading back actually - Andy, it was you who suggested this one originall -
finally found the post!

It's a very good way of solving flue problems. Another option that
it might provide is a kitchen location in a place that would suit your
design better. There's no fundamental reason (as long as you can meet
flue location on outside requirements, why a wall mounted boiler has
to go at top cupboard level either.




Had you thought about the loft as a place to install the boiler? or
the airing cupboard?

Loft - yse thought about it, but SWMBO is worried about having it up there -
plus - as it's just battens and slates, no felt in there, it's rather
draughty and tends to get a little damp (not damp but feels damp and cold on
wet days I think is what I actually mean) - I'd be worried that it would
rtificaily age the boiler - but - if the tanks in the roof space were to go
it would be a perfect place to put it as all the pipes are already up there!

Airing Cupboard is in the little'uns room. It's got the hw cylinder and
controls etc in it at the moment and I'd be worried for her safety (albeit
probably unnecessarily) - but the question still arises - how do you get air
to it/from it if you put it there I guess.

Take a look at the Keston Boilers site (download the manual for the
Celsius 25). Basically, the air inlet pipe and the flue are both
done in 50mm plastic. Note that you can position the inlet pipe at a
different place to the outlet if you like and can run over long
distances.

I don't think that I would be concerned about loft mounting from the
deterioration point of view - outhouses and garages are places and
these are usually unheated. You do have to make frost provision by
lagging pipes. Most modern boilers have an internal frost protection
to protect themselves.

I probably wouldn't put the boiler into a bedroom. Not because of the
fire risk, but because they do have a fan. Most are pretty quiet, so
in a kitchen cupboard not an issue. Also, since they are modulating
(output drops to match load), typically the boiler only runs flat out
for water heating. However, in a bedroom in the middle of the night
it might be noticable.




I would have thought that it is worth going to a little effort to gain
what amounts to an appliance footprint in the kitchen.....

Well this is a slimiline that's in there at the moment so between 300 and
450 mm wide - yes it would be nice to be shot of it - but equally if to be
shot of it costs as much as the raw materials for the kitchen.....

Ah... OK.

I'm not sure if these are still available - probably not at all in
condensing or storage combi.

It seems to me that if you want to minimise disruption, you would be
better off with a small wall mount system boiler in the kitchen and
keep the cylinder etc.



The best advice I can give you is not to be swayed by sales or offers
but to take time over it. Whether you are going to spend £5k or £25k,
you will be glad that you did.

Ta - will see what we can come up with on this front. It will probably be a
DIY 'cept gas works and sparks, plus I'm not doing the worktop jointing -
got on badly last time so it can go to a mate who is gifted in that area....


OK. Then I would take advantage of the design ideas and fitments
that the kitchen studios offer and then find a way to source them.

--

..andy

On Sat, 24 Dec 2005 15:09:47 +0000, Dan delaMare-Lyon wrote:

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 24 Dec 2005 10:06:33 GMT, "Dan delaMare-Lyon"
wrote:


The disruption is not going to be because the newer boiler is condensing.
The main areas that cause disruption are when a very different location
must be found for the boiler. And the need to upgrade the controls (TRVs
and cylinder stat) which you may well not have, currently.

It is very likely that the new boiler can go into much the same location
as the existing. A wall mounted unit does not have to go high up, although
freeing base unit space in a kitchen is nearly always a benefit.

..
--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...

I don't doubt that condensing would be "agreeable" (as in more
efficient) -
it's whether or not it involves so much work and labour that any potential
saving frmo having the condensing until would be vastly outweighed by the
changes needed elsewhere...?!

There's very little in it, Dan.

I presume that the current boiler is a conventional flue? Let's
assume you stayed with a floor mount in the kitchen There aren't
many conventional flue models left on the market. There's a broader
range of room sealed and fan flue, and as far as I can tell, all
condensing models are fan flue. Given that situation, unless you
replace like with like, you would have to change the flue anyway.

snip
Yup conventional Flue has to change - I've done some reading now

Had you thought about the loft as a place to install the boiler? or
the airing cupboard?

snip

Take a look at the Keston Boilers site (download the manual for the
Celsius 25). Basically, the air inlet pipe and the flue are both
done in 50mm plastic. Note that you can position the inlet pipe at a
different place to the outlet if you like and can run over long
distances.

I did indeed do that - put my mind at rest and seemed to be a decent bit of
kit. Like the idea that it auto cycles to keep itself fit when it's not in
use! Question that I was left wiht (bearing in mind I already see where the
boiler needs to go - and don't fancy trying to get 50mm pipe up the already
lined flue all the way to the roof from the ground floor) is.....how close
toghether can the air/flue pipes be - and how close to the property are they
allowed to be (as in any opening windows)?? I can see a ncie route where
bugger all work is required to move the water pipes (in fact they get made
shorter y about 1m) - the gas is already there, and we can lose the
breath/vent pipe on the wall above the new cabinetry so would be uber neat.
Couple of sweeping bends required, but other than that - it looks quite an
easy run and would be at wall cabinet height giving us some useless space
back on the floor for us to put another cabinet load of stuff in....

I don't think that I would be concerned about loft mounting from the
deterioration point of view - outhouses and garages are places and
these are usually unheated. You do have to make frost provision by
lagging pipes. Most modern boilers have an internal frost protection
to protect themselves.

Yup - didn't think about the garage issue - makes sense actually to put the
damn thing in the loft, lose the tanks, convert to sealed and be done with
it - plus it's the least faffing with cutting holes in walls etc...

I would have thought that it is worth going to a little effort to gain
what amounts to an appliance footprint in the kitchen.....

Well this is a slimiline that's in there at the moment so between 300 and
450 mm wide - yes it would be nice to be shot of it - but equally if to be
shot of it costs as much as the raw materials for the kitchen.....

Ah... OK.

I'm not sure if these are still available - probably not at all in
condensing or storage combi.

Well bizarrely Plumb Center still list our boiler thats in there at the
moment (albeit the 10kbtu bigger one but dimensionally it's identical) for
£750 - not sure I want it now though I rather like the idea of the
keston....

The best advice I can give you is not to be swayed by sales or offers
but to take time over it. Whether you are going to spend £5k or £25k,
you will be glad that you did.

Ta - will see what we can come up with on this front. It will probably be
a
DIY 'cept gas works and sparks, plus I'm not doing the worktop jointing -
got on badly last time so it can go to a mate who is gifted in that
area....


OK. Then I would take advantage of the design ideas and fitments
that the kitchen studios offer and then find a way to source them.

wilco.

Thanks Andy,
Cheers
dan.

On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 10:32:34 GMT, "Dan delaMare-Lyon"
wrote:

"Andy Hall" wrote in message


Take a look at the Keston Boilers site (download the manual for the
Celsius 25). Basically, the air inlet pipe and the flue are both
done in 50mm plastic. Note that you can position the inlet pipe at a
different place to the outlet if you like and can run over long
distances.

I did indeed do that - put my mind at rest and seemed to be a decent bit of
kit.

This was an example. Quite a number of other boilers have this option
now, generally by use of an adaptor which fits onto what is typically
a concentric fitting on the boiler itself. On these, the standard is
a concentric flue (which can also be quite long) or you can fit the
adaptor and split into two 50mm muPVC pipes. Note that this is high
temperature pipe (also available from plumbers merchants). Details in
manuals.

Like the idea that it auto cycles to keep itself fit when it's not in
use!

A lot have this nowadays. Internal frost protection and exercising of
the pump are quite common.

Question that I was left wiht (bearing in mind I already see where the
boiler needs to go - and don't fancy trying to get 50mm pipe up the already
lined flue all the way to the roof from the ground floor) is.....how close
toghether can the air/flue pipes be - and how close to the property are they
allowed to be (as in any opening windows)??

If you download the boiler installation manuals, they almost always
have the design rules. Flue termination siting is pretty much
generic. Keston say that their inlet and outlet terminations must be
at least 200mm apart. There doesn't seem to be a requirement on how
far pipes need to be apart for the run. Note that you do have to
make sure that there is a slope back towards the boiler so that
condensate in the pipe runs back. You don't want it collecting there
or dripping out of the flue terminal.


I can see a ncie route where
bugger all work is required to move the water pipes (in fact they get made
shorter y about 1m) - the gas is already there, and we can lose the
breath/vent pipe on the wall above the new cabinetry so would be uber neat.
Couple of sweeping bends required, but other than that - it looks quite an
easy run and would be at wall cabinet height giving us some useless space
back on the floor for us to put another cabinet load of stuff in....

Exactly. Take a look at compartment ventilation and clearance
requirements for servicing when you are planning. Some boilers now
release so little heat through the case that no compartment
ventilation is needed. However, on those that require it, if you are
mounting in a wall cupboard, you may be able to achieve it by cutting
part of the bottom and the top away.


Another useful kitchen design trick is fly-over shelves. Basically,
these are a shelf at the height of the top of the top cupboards
(perhaps 200-250mm deep) with cornice fitted to the front. Visually,
these connect runs of cupboards together and also provide a place to
run cables and pipes out of sight. In addition, you can fit
downlighters to provide accent lighting against the walls.




I don't think that I would be concerned about loft mounting from the
deterioration point of view - outhouses and garages are places and
these are usually unheated. You do have to make frost provision by
lagging pipes. Most modern boilers have an internal frost protection
to protect themselves.

Yup - didn't think about the garage issue - makes sense actually to put the
damn thing in the loft, lose the tanks, convert to sealed and be done with
it - plus it's the least faffing with cutting holes in walls etc...

You would typically not have the boiler size issue either, and could
either go for a decent size combi or for a system boiler driving a
heatbank. (Christian did this, I believe).





--

..andy