Hi All

Fitted a hardwood prehung door in the summer, purchased from Wickes. Now
the wet weather is upon us it's started to bind, so off it came.

Took a gnats off of the hinge side, refitted it and noticed it was also
binding at the top.

Off it came again - thank heavens for lift off hinges. Placed a square on
it to guide the circular saw and noticed the bl**dy thing was completely out
of square, 1/4" over 30" width. How it ever fitted inside the pre hung
frame I have no idea.

I went for a pre hung to save agro! You can't trust anything these days.

Dave

On Sun, 04 Dec 2005 16:56:16 GMT, "david lang"
wrote:

Hi All

Fitted a hardwood prehung door in the summer, purchased from Wickes. Now
the wet weather is upon us it's started to bind, so off it came.

Took a gnats off of the hinge side, refitted it and noticed it was also
binding at the top.

Off it came again - thank heavens for lift off hinges. Placed a square on
it to guide the circular saw and noticed the bl**dy thing was completely out
of square, 1/4" over 30" width. How it ever fitted inside the pre hung
frame I have no idea.

I went for a pre hung to save agro! You can't trust anything these days.

Dave



You went to Wickes and you bought wood.

What else is there to say?


--

..andy

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...

You went to Wickes and you bought wood.

What else is there to say?



Amen to that, bruvver. It's ****e.

Si

On Sun, 04 Dec 2005 16:56:16 GMT, "david lang"
wrote:

Hi All

Fitted a hardwood prehung door in the summer, purchased from Wickes. Now
the wet weather is upon us it's started to bind, so off it came.

YOu should have painted/varnished it properly.

marble wrote:

YOu should have painted/varnished it properly.

I did!

Dave

On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 08:54:16 GMT, "david lang"
wrote:

marble wrote:

YOu should have painted/varnished it properly.

I did!

Dave

You said the wet weather caused it to expand/warp so how did the damp
get to the wood?

marble wrote:

You said the wet weather caused it to expand/warp so how did the damp
get to the wood?

Simply because no treatment will 100% prevent water absorbtion no matter
what it is - it will only reduce it.

Dave

On Thu, 08 Dec 2005 22:31:37 GMT, "david lang"
wrote:

marble wrote:

You said the wet weather caused it to expand/warp so how did the damp
get to the wood?

Simply because no treatment will 100% prevent water absorbtion no matter
what it is - it will only reduce it.

Coating with a few coats of thin epoxy resin (like West Epoxy) will
come very close. Costs an arm and a leg though
--

Andy Hall wrote:
On Sun, 04 Dec 2005 16:56:16 GMT, "david lang"
wrote:

Hi All

Fitted a hardwood prehung door in the summer, purchased from Wickes. Now
the wet weather is upon us it's started to bind, so off it came.

Took a gnats off of the hinge side, refitted it and noticed it was also
binding at the top.

Off it came again - thank heavens for lift off hinges. Placed a square on
it to guide the circular saw and noticed the bl**dy thing was completely out
of square, 1/4" over 30" width. How it ever fitted inside the pre hung
frame I have no idea.

I went for a pre hung to save agro! You can't trust anything these days.

Dave



You went to Wickes and you bought wood.

What else is there to say?


Like timber merchants have anything better?

On Sun, 04 Dec 2005 16:56:16 GMT, "david lang"
wrote:

Fitted a hardwood prehung door in the summer, purchased from Wickes. Now
the wet weather is upon us it's started to bind, so off it came.

If you want a door to fit, and to stay fitting, then it needs to be made
from air-dried timber that has been seasoned for several years.

As timber absorbs moisture it swells. As this moisture is lost, it
shrinks. This process repeats. Kiln drying is a way to make dry timber
quickly, but timber (even indoors) will never preserve this level of
dryness.

Over time and multiple cycles though, the amount of movement as the
timber changes moisture content will reduce. Eventually the timber is
effectively stable, even for the fairly large annual moisture change.
This is not a rapid process though ! We're talking about 5+ years of
slow cycling.

Trying to seal timber against moisture changes is a good approach for
daily changes, but will have no effect over a seasonal change. You might
stop the door sticking in December, but it will still stick in March.
There's no practical coating you can apply to any practical door that's
going to hold winter's moisture out for the 4 or 5 months that would be
necessary to defer this right through a winter.

On 8 Dec 2005 15:35:59 -0800, wrote:


Andy Hall wrote:

You went to Wickes and you bought wood.

What else is there to say?


Like timber merchants have anything better?

Usually not, but everything is relative.


--

..andy

Andy Dingley wrote:
On Sun, 04 Dec 2005 16:56:16 GMT, "david lang"
wrote:


Fitted a hardwood prehung door in the summer, purchased from Wickes. Now
the wet weather is upon us it's started to bind, so off it came.


If you want a door to fit, and to stay fitting, then it needs to be made
from air-dried timber that has been seasoned for several years.

Doesn't have to be air dried. Kiln drying is just as good if it's done
properly which, unfortunateely, it rarely is. If it's dried at source by
the mill, it's normally high quality, but secondary kilning by importers
is a disaster IME.

As timber absorbs moisture it swells. As this moisture is lost, it
shrinks. This process repeats. Kiln drying is a way to make dry timber
quickly, but timber (even indoors) will never preserve this level of
dryness.

Interior softwood goes down to zero moisture content after a few years
in a centrally heated environment

Over time and multiple cycles though, the amount of movement as the
timber changes moisture content will reduce. Eventually the timber is
effectively stable, even for the fairly large annual moisture change.
This is not a rapid process though ! We're talking about 5+ years of
slow cycling.

Trying to seal timber against moisture changes is a good approach for
daily changes, but will have no effect over a seasonal change. You might
stop the door sticking in December, but it will still stick in March.
There's no practical coating you can apply to any practical door that's
going to hold winter's moisture out for the 4 or 5 months that would be
necessary to defer this right through a winter.

I still think candle wax rubbed into the end grain is the best bet.
Nothing is more water resistant or as easy to apply, but obviously it
needs to be done before the door is hung. The bottom edge is the most
vulnerable and the bit that's most often overlooked.

On 8 Dec 2005 15:35:59 -0800, wrote:


Andy Hall wrote:

You went to Wickes and you bought wood.

What else is there to say?


Like timber merchants have anything better?

Absolutely. And being at right timber merchant at the right time, the
wood is light years better than that sold at Wickes anytime, albeit at
2 or 3x the price.

However for a lot of DIY crappy wood is perfectly OK, such as hidden
or temporary stuff.

cheers,
Pete.

On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 10:19:33 +0000, Pete C wrote:

Absolutely. And being at right timber merchant at the right time, the
wood is light years better than that sold at Wickes anytime, albeit at
2 or 3x the price.

If your timber merchant can't beat Wickes' price, then find a better
timber merchant.

It's also worth cultivating the ability to calculate "cube foot" prices
from sawn stock on a shop shelf. A decent timber merchant has fairly
simple pricing based on the cube foot and a small allowance for sawing
and planing. Finding that the equivalent cube foot price in the big
orange barn is 5x that from the merchant is a good sanity check on
whether something is a good price or not.

On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 09:21:41 GMT, Stuart Noble
wrote:

If you want a door to fit, and to stay fitting, then it needs to be made
from air-dried timber that has been seasoned for several years.

Doesn't have to be air dried. Kiln drying is just as good if it's done
properly

My point is that it not only needs to be dried (either way) but that it
also needs to be seasoned for several years after this - i.e. cycled
through wet and dry for a number of cycles. This is rarely done by any
timber merchant (the storage and capital costs would be massive) but it
is done by traditional workshops and high quality joiners.

If you're having to cycle the timber for a few years after initial
drying, then how the initial drying is done doesn't matter. But as
kiln-drying is done to speed up the process, you're unlikely to find
anyone spending money to kiln the timber, then storing it for years
afterwards. Maybe for some softwoods where the high-temperature kilning
also sets the resin it might be done, but then more and more kilning is
a low temperature vacuum drying these days anyway (less energy, so
cheaper).

Interior softwood goes down to zero moisture content after a few years
in a centrally heated environment

No, wood does _not_ go down to "zero moisture" after sitting in a dry
centrally heated house. EMC for 25% RH is still 5% MC and 25% RH is
unbearably dry to live in. C/H rarely gets a house below 30%RH,
otherwise the inhabitants start to complain.

5% MC timber is certainly "dry", but it's not "zero moisture", it's 5%.

Secondly you've missed the main point - it doesn't matter how dry the
timber gets in the dry season, it will still get damp again over the wet
season. "Drying" timber is a reversible process.

I still think candle wax rubbed into the end grain is the best bet.

End grain is certainly the key here. Timber is already quite well sealed
from the sides but (especially for hardwoods) you need to seal the ends
very well.

Something waxy on the end grain would help, but IMHO you get a much
better seal from something like EndSeal (an emulsified wax) rather than
candle wax. Rubbed in wax which is then warmed with a hot air gun can
be effective, but dipping in molten wax is almost useless (it cracks and
leaks).


--
Cats have nine lives, which is why they rarely post to Usenet.

Andy Dingley wrote:
On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 09:21:41 GMT, Stuart Noble
wrote:


If you want a door to fit, and to stay fitting, then it needs to be made
from air-dried timber that has been seasoned for several years.

Doesn't have to be air dried. Kiln drying is just as good if it's done
properly


My point is that it not only needs to be dried (either way) but that it
also needs to be seasoned for several years after this - i.e. cycled
through wet and dry for a number of cycles. This is rarely done by any
timber merchant (the storage and capital costs would be massive) but it
is done by traditional workshops and high quality joiners.

If you're having to cycle the timber for a few years after initial
drying, then how the initial drying is done doesn't matter. But as
kiln-drying is done to speed up the process, you're unlikely to find
anyone spending money to kiln the timber, then storing it for years
afterwards. Maybe for some softwoods where the high-temperature kilning
also sets the resin it might be done, but then more and more kilning is
a low temperature vacuum drying these days anyway (less energy, so
cheaper).


Interior softwood goes down to zero moisture content after a few years
in a centrally heated environment


No, wood does _not_ go down to "zero moisture" after sitting in a dry
centrally heated house. EMC for 25% RH is still 5% MC and 25% RH is
unbearably dry to live in. C/H rarely gets a house below 30%RH,
otherwise the inhabitants start to complain.

5% MC timber is certainly "dry", but it's not "zero moisture", it's 5%.

Depends on the dimensions. I've dismantled interior fittings where the
content was absolutely zero (even taking a chunk from the centre of the
wood). Really old stuff regularly reads zero.

Secondly you've missed the main point - it doesn't matter how dry the
timber gets in the dry season, it will still get damp again over the wet
season. "Drying" timber is a reversible process.

My own observations contradict the theory. The drying process for indoor
stuff is essentially one way. Those 1/8th gaps in the floorboards are
entirely predictable going from 20% to 5%MC, but they don't close up
again in the summer do they?


I still think candle wax rubbed into the end grain is the best bet.


End grain is certainly the key here. Timber is already quite well sealed
from the sides but (especially for hardwoods) you need to seal the ends
very well.

Something waxy on the end grain would help, but IMHO you get a much
better seal from something like EndSeal (an emulsified wax) rather than
candle wax. Rubbed in wax which is then warmed with a hot air gun can
be effective, but dipping in molten wax is almost useless (it cracks and
leaks).

Wax emulsions are never as hydrophobic as the original wax. The
surfactants remain in the finished film and are forever water soluble.
The right wax won't crack on drying. A low melting point paraffin wax is
pretty flexible, and microcrystalline waxes even more so. The latter is
used to seal pallets I believe.

On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 15:50:19 GMT, Stuart Noble
wrote:

5% MC timber is certainly "dry", but it's not "zero moisture", it's 5%.

Depends on the dimensions. I've dismantled interior fittings where the
content was absolutely zero (even taking a chunk from the centre of the
wood). Really old stuff regularly reads zero.

That's because resistance meters don't work that low, not because it has
zero moisture in it. You won't get timber of any age to be zero moisture
content at room temperature.

My own observations contradict the theory. The drying process for indoor
stuff is essentially one way. Those 1/8th gaps in the floorboards are
entirely predictable going from 20% to 5%MC, but they don't close up
again in the summer do they?

Your observations are of shrinkage though, not moisture. That's my point
- after some years of cycling the expansion of damp timber is reduced,
not that the timber stays dry.

Wax emulsions are never as hydrophobic as the original wax. The
surfactants remain in the finished film and are forever water soluble.

A surfactant isn't water soluble though, it's hydrophilic and polar. If
you have this in a small space (where surface tension is significant)
then even a re-wetted emulsion remains as a plug. It won't permit water
to permeate it, and it will take aeons before it could be washed out.

The right wax won't crack on drying.

Depends how you apply it. The trouble with hot-dip wax is that the
timber is still cold and the wax chills and freezes on contact. There's
no mechanical interaction of wax and timber, so the wax layer can crack
or flake.

Pete C wrote:
On 8 Dec 2005 15:35:59 -0800, wrote:


Andy Hall wrote:

You went to Wickes and you bought wood.

What else is there to say?


Like timber merchants have anything better?

Absolutely. And being at right timber merchant at the right time, the
wood is light years better than that sold at Wickes anytime, albeit at
2 or 3x the price.

However for a lot of DIY crappy wood is perfectly OK, such as hidden
or temporary stuff.

cheers,
Pete.

I've been to plenty of timber merchants and the wood hasn't been any
different to that in Wickes, except there is more choice at merchants.
The prices at the timber merchants are also very competitive with
Wickes.
I don't know what you mean by 'at the right merchant at the right
time'? Do you call them up and say, "Hello, is the time right?" ;-)

wrote:

I've been to plenty of timber merchants and the wood hasn't been any
different to that in Wickes, except there is more choice at merchants.
The prices at the timber merchants are also very competitive with
Wickes.
I don't know what you mean by 'at the right merchant at the right
time'? Do you call them up and say, "Hello, is the time right?"

Obviously. Or did you go to each one in turn?

No-one would be that daft would they?

Back on topic again:
A rising-butt hinge will require the top of the door be very off square
as the hinge side of the top would hit the frame before the door had
closed very far.

Think it out.

Weatherlawyer wrote:

Back on topic again:
A rising-butt hinge will require the top of the door be very off
square as the hinge side of the top would hit the frame before the
door had closed very far.

Think it out.

Wasn't a rising butt. Just a lift off hinge, only possible to lift the door
off when it was at 90 degrees to the frame.

Dave

Andy Dingley wrote:
On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 15:50:19 GMT, Stuart Noble
wrote:

A surfactant isn't water soluble though, it's hydrophilic and polar.
If you have this in a small space (where surface tension is significant)
then even a re-wetted emulsion remains as a plug. It won't permit water
to permeate it, and it will take aeons before it could be washed out.

All surfactant are water soluble to a degree or they couldn't emulsify
the wax in the first place. Hydrophilic/lipophilic balance (HLB) and all
that.

Weatherlawyer wrote:
wrote:

I've been to plenty of timber merchants and the wood hasn't been any
different to that in Wickes, except there is more choice at merchants.
The prices at the timber merchants are also very competitive with
Wickes.
I don't know what you mean by 'at the right merchant at the right
time'? Do you call them up and say, "Hello, is the time right?"


Obviously. Or did you go to each one in turn?

No-one would be that daft would they?

Back on topic again:
A rising-butt hinge will require the top of the door be very off square
as the hinge side of the top would hit the frame before the door had
closed very far.

Think it out.


I have them on all my doors and I can assure you that isn't the case.
Don't think it out, take a look.

On 9 Dec 2005 11:55:59 -0800, "Weatherlawyer"
wrote:

A rising-butt hinge will require the top of the door be very off square
as the hinge side of the top would hit the frame before the door had
closed very far.

They leave a small gap at the top. As you're not trying to walk over
the top of the frame, it's easy to place this gap in a rebate and so
there's no need for a draught.

Andy Dingley wrote:

On 9 Dec 2005 11:55:59 -0800, "Weatherlawyer"
wrote:

A rising-butt hinge will require the top of the door be very off square
as the hinge side of the top would hit the frame before the door had
closed very far.

They leave a small gap at the top. As you're not trying to walk over
the top of the frame, it's easy to place this gap in a rebate and so
there's no need for a draught.

It's no good just taking a look.
FFR: If the door was fitted for rising butts (and IIRC they rise about
1/2" with 4" hinges) the inside top corner will hit the head of the
frame 1/4" up at something like 75 degrees closed.

So you have to take 3/8" or so off one corner of the top of the door
with them. I think you need to take it out most of the way along one
side; that is 3/8" to nothing in some 24" and 3/8" to nothing one face
to the other.

I always end up doing them trial and error as the number of times I fit
them I have generally forgotten about that trick by the next time.

On 9 Dec 2005 10:25:41 -0800, wrote:

I've been to plenty of timber merchants and the wood hasn't been any
different to that in Wickes, except there is more choice at merchants.
The prices at the timber merchants are also very competitive with
Wickes.

Maybe it depends on the type of wood being bought. I often get 1 x
1.5" planed softwood for shelving, there are 4 or 5 places near me
that do it. They all vary in price and quality though Wickes are
consistently lowest on both. Even so the nearest size I can get from
Wickes is 18 x 22 mm which looks a little too thin.

cheers,
Pete.

In article .com,
says...

Andy Dingley wrote:

On 9 Dec 2005 11:55:59 -0800, "Weatherlawyer"
wrote:

A rising-butt hinge will require the top of the door be very off square
as the hinge side of the top would hit the frame before the door had
closed very far.

They leave a small gap at the top. As you're not trying to walk over
the top of the frame, it's easy to place this gap in a rebate and so
there's no need for a draught.

It's no good just taking a look.
FFR: If the door was fitted for rising butts (and IIRC they rise about
1/2" with 4" hinges) the inside top corner will hit the head of the
frame 1/4" up at something like 75 degrees closed.

So you have to take 3/8" or so off one corner of the top of the door
with them. I think you need to take it out most of the way along one
side; that is 3/8" to nothing in some 24" and 3/8" to nothing one face
to the other.

I always end up doing them trial and error as the number of times I fit
them I have generally forgotten about that trick by the next time.


Every door I've ever seen fitted with rising butt hinges is flat and
square on top. When hanging the door you set the top of the door to be
flush with the frame when the door is open 90 degrees, so there's a gap
of 5-6mm at the top when it's closed.

Rob Morley wrote:
In article .com,
says...

Andy Dingley wrote:


On 9 Dec 2005 11:55:59 -0800, "Weatherlawyer"
wrote:


A rising-butt hinge will require the top of the door be very off square
as the hinge side of the top would hit the frame before the door had
closed very far.

They leave a small gap at the top. As you're not trying to walk over
the top of the frame, it's easy to place this gap in a rebate and so
there's no need for a draught.


It's no good just taking a look.
FFR: If the door was fitted for rising butts (and IIRC they rise about
1/2" with 4" hinges) the inside top corner will hit the head of the
frame 1/4" up at something like 75 degrees closed.

So you have to take 3/8" or so off one corner of the top of the door
with them. I think you need to take it out most of the way along one
side; that is 3/8" to nothing in some 24" and 3/8" to nothing one face
to the other.

I always end up doing them trial and error as the number of times I fit
them I have generally forgotten about that trick by the next time.



Every door I've ever seen fitted with rising butt hinges is flat and
square on top. When hanging the door you set the top of the door to be
flush with the frame when the door is open 90 degrees, so there's a gap
of 5-6mm at the top when it's closed.

Exactly.