Hi all,

Found that the hot water cylinder was leaking earlier this week and am
planning to replace tomorrow. I need an indirect combination hot/cold
one with ideally a 150/40 litre split. I was going to order off BES for
£196 but although they offer Saturday delivery they don't guarantee it
will arrive (my fault for not ordering earlier in the week!)

I suspect I won't get anywhere near as cheap as this from the sheds but
thought I'd ask in case anyone knew of anywhere off the top of their
heads worth checking.

On another note, has anyone attempted having a standard cylinder and
separate cold water tank both in the loft? What sort of weight is a 25
gallon tank and would it be fairly easy to support? The combi cylinder
is going next to the end wall and I was wondering if it would be
possible to use a standard cylinder instead and put a tank above half
supported by brackets/battens on the wall and timber legs. Might be a
bit dodgy though!

Anyways, any help or advice muchly appreciated.

Richard.

Richard Conway wrote:
What sort of weight is a 25 gallon tank

10LBS/gallon. 250LBS.


and would it be fairly easy to support?

Yes, but you could probably do with a pair of these, linked.

Cannot answer your question on the cylinder, but water weighs 10 pounds a
gallon, obviously you also need to allow for the weight of the tank.

Cheers

John

Chris Bacon wrote:
Richard Conway wrote:

What sort of weight is a 25 gallon tank


10LBS/gallon. 250LBS.


and would it be fairly easy to support?


Yes, but you could probably do with a pair of these, linked.

Well we currently have the combi tank which only holds 40l (about 9
gallons) and this doesn't cause to much problems - just about fills a
bath when mixed with cold and we don't have too many baths anyway (we
have showers, before someone makes a wisecrack!)

I figure it would be cheaper to put a seperate cylinder and tank in, the
extra 16 gallons will make bath filling a bit better and next time
something goes wrong I'll only have one thing to replace!

Found that the hot water cylinder was leaking earlier this week and am
planning to replace tomorrow. I need an indirect combination hot/cold
one with ideally a 150/40 litre split. I was going to order off BES for
£196 but although they offer Saturday delivery they don't guarantee it
will arrive (my fault for not ordering earlier in the week!)

If your mains is good flow and pressure, I wouldn't fit a gravity fed
system. It may be cheaper, but it is incapable of running a shower without a
noisy pump. It also solves the loft mounting problem, as there is no heavy
cold cistern required.

Christian.

On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 13:27:47 +0100, Richard Conway
wrote:

Hi all,

Found that the hot water cylinder was leaking earlier this week and am
planning to replace tomorrow. I need an indirect combination hot/cold
one with ideally a 150/40 litre split. I was going to order off BES for
£196 but although they offer Saturday delivery they don't guarantee it
will arrive (my fault for not ordering earlier in the week!)

I suspect I won't get anywhere near as cheap as this from the sheds but
thought I'd ask in case anyone knew of anywhere off the top of their
heads worth checking.

Pretty sure your local B&Q warehouse will have these.

sponix

Christian McArdle wrote:
Found that the hot water cylinder was leaking earlier this week and am
planning to replace tomorrow. I need an indirect combination hot/cold
one with ideally a 150/40 litre split. I was going to order off BES for
£196 but although they offer Saturday delivery they don't guarantee it
will arrive (my fault for not ordering earlier in the week!)


If your mains is good flow and pressure, I wouldn't fit a gravity fed
system. It may be cheaper, but it is incapable of running a shower without a
noisy pump. It also solves the loft mounting problem, as there is no heavy
cold cistern required.

Christian.



I knew this would happen

I would very much like to have mains hot water but we are hoping to move
in the next 2-3 years and can't really justify the expense. We were
first time buyers and had to buy a house we didn't really want just to
get on the ladder, so any money we spend on it needs to be either
maintenance or things that will increase the value for when we sell.

Saying that, we are relatively happy with the shower as it is - even
with no pump.

Richard Conway wrote:

On another note, has anyone attempted having a standard cylinder and
separate cold water tank both in the loft?

Yup, used to have just this setup. The Cylinder sat on the floor on a
offcut of old kitchen worktop, and the cold tank sat on a platform above
it made from some 4x2" studwork on one side, and supported on the roof
purlin the other.

What sort of weight is a 25
gallon tank and would it be fairly easy to support?

Weight including the tank and other gubbins is likely to be 135kg ish
(The water alone is getting on for 115kg)

The combi cylinder
is going next to the end wall and I was wondering if it would be
possible to use a standard cylinder instead and put a tank above half
supported by brackets/battens on the wall and timber legs. Might be a
bit dodgy though!

Would pronanly be fine if you fix it firmly to the wall, and then give
it legs at the front.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

John Rumm wrote:
Richard Conway wrote:

On another note, has anyone attempted having a standard cylinder and
separate cold water tank both in the loft?


Yup, used to have just this setup. The Cylinder sat on the floor on a
offcut of old kitchen worktop, and the cold tank sat on a platform above
it made from some 4x2" studwork on one side, and supported on the roof
purlin the other.

What sort of weight is a 25

gallon tank and would it be fairly easy to support?


Weight including the tank and other gubbins is likely to be 135kg ish
(The water alone is getting on for 115kg)

The combi cylinder

is going next to the end wall and I was wondering if it would be
possible to use a standard cylinder instead and put a tank above half
supported by brackets/battens on the wall and timber legs. Might be a
bit dodgy though!


Would pronanly be fine if you fix it firmly to the wall, and then give
it legs at the front.


I was originally thinking of some sort of angle-iron support, but how
about instead using two or three 4x2" vertical battens secured to the
wall (would plugs and screws be sufficient or would I need some kind of
rawlbolt type things?) and then a horizontal piece across the top.

Try contacting a local plumbing supply centre. I've just replaced the
hot water cylinder (450 x 900 indirect) which cost £97 + VAT making it
cheaper than most other retailers such as the plumbcentre, B&Q and the
like. My local suppliers also offered to accept all the unused fittings
back for refund, so the total for a new cylinder, HP ballcock and float,
few meters of copper pipe, and just the fittings to do the job came to
less than £180. Add the cost of the heating pack from Screwfix and the
grand total came to £240 for a fully working system. This was half of
the cheapest quote I receive for a local plumber for just the plumbing
side !!

Malcolm

Richard Conway wrote:
Christian McArdle wrote:

Found that the hot water cylinder was leaking earlier this week and am
planning to replace tomorrow. I need an indirect combination hot/cold
one with ideally a 150/40 litre split. I was going to order off BES for
£196 but although they offer Saturday delivery they don't guarantee it
will arrive (my fault for not ordering earlier in the week!)

Richard Conway wrote:

I was originally thinking of some sort of angle-iron support, but how
about instead using two or three 4x2" vertical battens secured to the
wall (would plugs and screws be sufficient or would I need some kind of
rawlbolt type things?) and then a horizontal piece across the top.

If you make the uprights long enough then you can spread the load...

Some of it will be taken in shear on the screws (very strong), and some
will be in tension on them - not as strong, but still good for 25kg at
least per fixing. So I would be tempted to go for:

(side view))

#
# | |
# | Tank |
# | |
# | |
############### - plinth
# //
# //
# // - bracing
#//
# - batten fixed to wall in four places
#


That sort of arrangemment should mean most of the load is carried in
shear on the screws, with not too much attempting to pull them from the
wall.

The higher you stick it up the wall, the more head and the better the
shower performance. (I would keep at least a couple of courses down from
the top of the gable however - since there is no load above the bricks
they can be quite weak)

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

John Rumm wrote:
Richard Conway wrote:

I was originally thinking of some sort of angle-iron support, but how
about instead using two or three 4x2" vertical battens secured to the
wall (would plugs and screws be sufficient or would I need some kind
of rawlbolt type things?) and then a horizontal piece across the top.


If you make the uprights long enough then you can spread the load...

Some of it will be taken in shear on the screws (very strong), and some
will be in tension on them - not as strong, but still good for 25kg at
least per fixing. So I would be tempted to go for:

(side view))

#
# | |
# | Tank |
# | |
# | |
############### - plinth
# //
# //
# // - bracing
#//
# - batten fixed to wall in four places
#


That sort of arrangemment should mean most of the load is carried in
shear on the screws, with not too much attempting to pull them from the
wall.

The higher you stick it up the wall, the more head and the better the
shower performance. (I would keep at least a couple of courses down from
the top of the gable however - since there is no load above the bricks
they can be quite weak)


Looks good, although I was thinking that rather than the bracing I would
have two or three legs on the other side of the plinth going down to a
joist that spans a supporting wall.

Looks good, although I was thinking that rather than the bracing I would
have two or three legs on the other side of the plinth going down to a
joist that spans a supporting wall.

That's probably safest. I'd be very wary of supporting close on 150kg at the
top of a (usually badly built) firebreak wall in a loft space. The loading
has a large sideways element in it, too. If it was straight down, it would
probably give the wall greater stability.

Christian.

In article ,
Christian McArdle wrote:
If your mains is good flow and pressure, I wouldn't fit a gravity fed
system. It may be cheaper, but it is incapable of running a shower
without a noisy pump.

That depends entirely on the 'head' from the header tank.

--
*If tennis elbow is painful, imagine suffering with tennis balls *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 13:27:47 +0100, Richard Conway wrote:

Hi all,

Found that the hot water cylinder was leaking earlier this week and am
planning to replace tomorrow. I need an indirect combination hot/cold
one with ideally a 150/40 litre split. I was going to order off BES for
£196 but although they offer Saturday delivery they don't guarantee it
will arrive (my fault for not ordering earlier in the week!)

I suspect I won't get anywhere near as cheap as this from the sheds but
thought I'd ask in case anyone knew of anywhere off the top of their
heads worth checking.

On another note, has anyone attempted having a standard cylinder and
separate cold water tank both in the loft? What sort of weight is a 25
gallon tank and would it be fairly easy to support? The combi cylinder
is going next to the end wall and I was wondering if it would be
possible to use a standard cylinder instead and put a tank above half
supported by brackets/battens on the wall and timber legs. Might be a
bit dodgy though!

Most independent plumbers' merchants would happily sell you a cylinder on
Sat am. However you are likely to have to get them to order it in for you
unless they are a very large shop.

There is no reason why you could not build a strong shelf (3/4" ply and
4x2 timber) and put a standard 25/40 gal cistern on top and a bog standard
(36" or 42"x18" HWC below. This may actually be cheaper than the combi
cylinder.

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

Richard Conway wrote:

Looks good, although I was thinking that rather than the bracing I would
have two or three legs on the other side of the plinth going down to a
joist that spans a supporting wall.

Even better... (I think that is what I suggested in the first place ;-)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"Dave Plowman (News)" in a haze of senile flatulence
wrote in message ...
In article ,
Christian McArdle wrote:
If your mains is good flow and pressure, I wouldn't fit a gravity fed
system. It may be cheaper, but it is incapable of running a shower
without a noisy pump.

That depends entirely on the 'head' from the header tank.

Exactly. Do you think they will give him planning permission to install a
100 foot water tower in the garden?

Duh!

In article ws.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
If your mains is good flow and pressure, I wouldn't fit a gravity fed
system. It may be cheaper, but it is incapable of running a shower
without a noisy pump.

That depends entirely on the 'head' from the header tank.

Exactly. Do you think they will give him planning permission to install a
100 foot water tower in the garden?

You can get a delightful high flow rate shower with the head that nearly
any house can provide for a gravity fed system. Provided you take care
with the pipe runs, sizing and installation. Which of course rules out
your bodged plumbing.

Any fool can provide a high pressure dribble of warm water. That's why
electric showers sell.

How often does your nurse allow you to wash?

--
*When did my wild oats turn to prunes and all bran?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" in a haze of senile flatulence
wrote in message ...
In article ws.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
If your mains is good flow and pressure, I wouldn't fit a gravity
fed
system. It may be cheaper, but it is incapable of running a shower
without a noisy pump.

That depends entirely on the 'head' from the header tank.

Exactly. Do you think they will give him planning permission to install
a
100 foot water tower in the garden?

You can get a delightful high flow rate shower with the head that nearly
any house can provide for a gravity fed system.

And have a water bill through the roof, wasting a valuable resource. Duh!
Stick to the 100 foot tower. Best of luck.

In article ws.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
You can get a delightful high flow rate shower with the head that
nearly any house can provide for a gravity fed system.

And have a water bill through the roof, wasting a valuable resource.

All your hare brained schemes waste the most valuable resource of all -
money.

--
*Never miss a good chance to shut up.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" in a haze of senile flatulence
wrote in message ...
In article ws.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
You can get a delightful high flow rate shower with the head that
nearly any house can provide for a gravity fed system.

And have a water bill through the roof, wasting a valuable resource.

All your hare brained schemes waste the most valuable resource of all -
money.

Money is not a natural resource. Only an electric caber tosser could think
like that.

In article ws.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
And have a water bill through the roof, wasting a valuable resource.

All your hare brained schemes waste the most valuable resource of all -
money.

Money is not a natural resource.

You mentioned 'valuable resource'. It's above in the quote.

Only an electric caber tosser could think like that.

I merely responded to what you wrote. It would take someone with a very
warped mind to imagine what you may or may not have meant, John.

--
*I like cats, too. Let's exchange recipes.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" in a haze of senile flatulence
wrote in message ...
In article ws.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
And have a water bill through the roof, wasting a valuable resource.

All your hare brained schemes waste the most valuable resource of
all -
money.

Money is not a natural resource.

You mentioned 'valuable resource'. It's above in the quote.

Only an electric caber tosser could think like that.

I merely responded

Don't respond, you are not good at it.

In article ws.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
You mentioned 'valuable resource'. It's above in the quote.

Only an electric caber tosser could think like that.

I merely responded

Don't respond, you are not good at it.

Get your nurse to increase your medication and show you how to quote
properly. And ask her about how to get a new ISP after you loose yours -
again.

--
*The problem with the gene pool is that there is no lifeguard *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" in a haze of senile flatulence
wrote in message ...
In article ws.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
You mentioned 'valuable resource'. It's above in the quote.

Only an electric caber tosser could think like that.

I merely responded

Don't respond, you are not good at it.

Get

Please, don't respond, you are not good at it.

Doctor Drivel wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" in a haze of senile flatulence
wrote in message ...

In article ws.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:

If your mains is good flow and pressure, I wouldn't fit a gravity

fed

system. It may be cheaper, but it is incapable of running a shower
without a noisy pump.

That depends entirely on the 'head' from the header tank.

Exactly. Do you think they will give him planning permission to install

a

100 foot water tower in the garden?

You can get a delightful high flow rate shower with the head that nearly
any house can provide for a gravity fed system.


And have a water bill through the roof, wasting a valuable resource. Duh!
Stick to the 100 foot tower. Best of luck.


I built the 100 foot water tower and plumbed it to my HWC with 28mm pipe
with no bends. The flow still wasn't strong enough. I think I'll have
to forget the gravity idea and install two combis instead.

Doctor Drivel wrote:
Don't respond, you are not good at it.

Get

Please, don't respond, you are not good at it.

The record's stuck again. Someone give him a thump.

MBQ

Ed Sirett wrote:
Most independent plumbers' merchants would happily sell you a cylinder on
Sat am. However you are likely to have to get them to order it in for you
unless they are a very large shop.

There is no reason why you could not build a strong shelf (3/4" ply and
4x2 timber) and put a standard 25/40 gal cistern on top and a bog standard
(36" or 42"x18" HWC below. This may actually be cheaper than the combi
cylinder.


Didn't manage to get sorted in the end - will be a job for next week now
so I should have plenty of time to order from BES. Thanks for all the
helpful response anyway people.

I'm still confused about which route to take though - I think for
simplicity I'll probably just stick another combination one in as it
will be easier.

wrote in message
oups.com...

Doctor Drivel wrote:
Don't respond, you are not good at it.

Get

Please, don't respond, you are not good at it.

The record's stuck again. Someone give him a thump.

I know, he coming back.

In message ws.net,
Doctor Drivel writes

"Dave Plowman (News)" in a haze of senile flatulence
wrote in message ...
In article ws.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
You mentioned 'valuable resource'. It's above in the quote.

Only an electric caber tosser could think like that.

I merely responded

Don't respond, you are not good at it.

Get

Please, don't respond, you are not good at it.

I didn't notice you making much of a contribution in that post either

http://tinyurl.com/avfeg

--
geoff

"raden" wrote in message
...
In message ws.net,
Doctor Drivel writes

"Dave Plowman (News)" in a haze of senile
flatulence
wrote in message ...
In article ws.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
You mentioned 'valuable resource'. It's above in the quote.

Only an electric caber tosser could think like that.

I merely responded

Don't respond, you are not good at it.

Get

Please, don't respond, you are not good at it.

I didn't notice you making much of a contribution in that post either

http://tinyurl.com/avfeg

Maxie, that is a nice site.

"raden" wrote in message
...
In message ws.net,
Doctor Drivel writes

"Dave Plowman (News)" in a haze of senile
flatulence
wrote in message ...
In article ws.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
You mentioned 'valuable resource'. It's above in the quote.

Only an electric caber tosser could think like that.

I merely responded

Don't respond, you are not good at it.

Get

Please, don't respond, you are not good at it.

I didn't notice you making much of a contribution in that post either

http://tinyurl.com/avfeg

Maxie, this is a better site....
http://tinyurl.com/8xutj

"raden" wrote in message
...
In message ws.net,
Doctor Drivel writes

"Dave Plowman (News)" in a haze of senile
flatulence
wrote in message ...
In article ws.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
You mentioned 'valuable resource'. It's above in the quote.

Only an electric caber tosser could think like that.

I merely responded

Don't respond, you are not good at it.

Get

Please, don't respond, you are not good at it.

I didn't notice you making much of a contribution in that post either

http://tinyurl.com/avfeg

Maxie....

...Maxie's had nice good swear
...the sort of language we don't like to hear.
...a courteous man? Maxie ain't
...he causes old ladies to drop and faint

...walk around Watford if you dare
...you will hear expletives through the air
...as Maxie screams out loud
...the sort of language of which he's proud
...with effs and C's and B's and T's
...directing words at old ladies

...the Plod viewed Maxie so adverse
...as he shouted out a curse
...they took this foul mouthed fatty man
...and slapped him right inside the can

...through the keyhole Maxie directed
...foul mouthed words towards the detective

...waering a poka dot frock he did shout
...you effing *******s let me out
...the Plod had enough of this fat slob
...and rammed his frock inside his gob

Doctor Drivel wrote:
..through the keyhole Maxie directed
..foul mouthed words towards the detective


"My Old Man's a dustman,
he wears his dustman's hat,
he farted through the keyhole,
and paralysed the cat,"

"Chris Bacon" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:
..through the keyhole Maxie directed
..foul mouthed words towards the detective


"My Old Man's a dustman,

He is? An admiral profession. Lazy *******s tough.

he wears his dustman's hat,

I should think so. better than fireman's hat.

he farted through the keyhole,

Why?

and paralysed the cat,"

The cat was near the keyhole?

You have an odd Dad.

Doctor Drivel wrote:
"Chris Bacon" wrote...
Doctor Drivel wrote:
..through the keyhole Maxie directed
..foul mouthed words towards the detective

"My Old Man's a dustman,

He is? An admiral profession. Lazy *******s tough.

Just an old reminiscence - have you sunk so low, that you
cannot enjoy some childish banter? *You* tell *me* one!!
Disregarde the (other) abstrads here....

It is the case, IME, IRL, that Dustmen w o r k like
mad and then rest exorbitantly. Great! Someone does it.


he wears his dustman's hat,

I should think so. better than fireman's hat.

uk.politics.misc went *that* way.... -


he farted through the keyhole,

Why?

Because, of course, he did... [see pt. 1]


and paralysed the cat,"

The cat was near the keyhole?

Not necessarily... you have given me cause to say.....

Thrsssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssp!

J.L. forgive me, if you're still aliove.


You have an odd Dad.

Increasingly so, with age. I hope I match and surpass him.

Doctor Drivel wrote:
"Chris Bacon" wrote in message
...

Doctor Drivel wrote:

..through the keyhole Maxie directed
..foul mouthed words towards the detective


"My Old Man's a dustman,


He is? An admiral profession. Lazy *******s tough.


he wears his dustman's hat,


I should think so. better than fireman's hat.


Shouldn't he have worn an admiral's hat?

"Richard Conway" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:
"Chris Bacon" wrote in message
...

Doctor Drivel wrote:

..through the keyhole Maxie directed
..foul mouthed words towards the detective


"My Old Man's a dustman,


He is? An admiral profession. Lazy *******s though.


he wears his dustman's hat,


I should think so. better than fireman's hat.


Shouldn't he have worn an admiral's hat?

Most bin men I know wear those hats.

Doctor Drivel wrote:
"Richard Conway" wrote in message
...

Doctor Drivel wrote:

"Chris Bacon" wrote in message
...


Doctor Drivel wrote:


..through the keyhole Maxie directed
..foul mouthed words towards the detective


"My Old Man's a dustman,


He is? An admiral profession. Lazy *******s though.



he wears his dustman's hat,


I should think so. better than fireman's hat.


Shouldn't he have worn an admiral's hat?


Most bin men I know wear those hats.



Do you meat a lot of them while you're looking for food?

"Richard Conway" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:
"Richard Conway" wrote in message
...

Doctor Drivel wrote:

"Chris Bacon" wrote in message
...


Doctor Drivel wrote:


..through the keyhole Maxie directed
..foul mouthed words towards the detective


"My Old Man's a dustman,


He is? An admiral profession. Lazy *******s though.



he wears his dustman's hat,


I should think so. better than fireman's hat.


Shouldn't he have worn an admiral's hat?


Most bin men I know wear those hats.



Do you meat a lot of them while you're looking for food?

Yes, the *******s are always in the deli at the supermarket.