I have to replace my old boiler so and going for a combi i live in a 2
bed bungalow and have an electric shower. After searching the net I have
come up with two options. Any thoughts for or against each one.

Biasi Rive compact HE £468.83 inc vat, flue and timer

or

Ideal Isar 24 HE £688.64 inc vat and flue

I plan to run my dishwaser and washing machine just of the cold supply
so they need not enter the equation and a rough calc of BTU requirements
for rads is 26000.

I do plan to hopefully loft convert at some point so that would mean
possible 3-4 more rads and another basin.

Thanks for you help

Paul

"Paul" wrote in message
...

I have to replace my old boiler so and
going for a combi i live in a 2
bed bungalow and have an electric shower.
After searching the net I have
come up with two options. Any thoughts for
or against each one.

Biasi Rive compact HE £468.83 inc vat, flue and timer

Give this a miss. The condensing boiler has a secondary heat exchanger. Bad
news.

or

Ideal Isar 24 HE £688.64 inc vat and flue

Much better. 2 yr guarantee, one piece heat exchanger, pre-mix downwards
firing burner.

I plan to run my dishwaser and washing machine just of the cold supply
so they need not enter the equation and a rough calc of BTU requirements
for rads is 26000.

I do plan to hopefully loft convert at some point so that would mean
possible 3-4 more rads and another basin.

The boiler is big enough to heat your house, with more capacity to spare,
unless it is "very" big. Combi's are high rated burners for the DHW side,
so lots of oomph for CH. It will not fill the bath quickly at all. It will
give very good showers. If you don't mind slow bath fills or shower most of
the time, then it is fine.

If you want fast bath fill then you will require a high flowrate combi,
which are more expensive.

Try these for cheap combi's. They are the cheapest. Give them a ring:
http://www.uselessenergy.org.uk/boilers_prices.asp

Go for in this order:

- Glow-Worm 38CXI @ £719.19
- Worcester Greenstar 35HE Plus @ £832.30
- Isar 35HE @ £685.00

Snip
If you want fast bath fill then you will require a high flowrate combi,
which are more expensive.

Try these for cheap combi's. They are the cheapest. Give them a ring:
http://www.uselessenergy.org.uk/boilers_prices.asp

Go for in this order:

- Glow-Worm 38CXI @ £719.19
- Worcester Greenstar 35HE Plus @ £832.30
- Isar 35HE @ £685.00


How quickly on bath filling is not very quickly? I can afford the glow
worm 30CXI or the Ideal HE30 which would you pick? The glow worm has a
stainless steel heat exchanger is this better?

I have just had to replace the control pack on my old CH system will i
be able to use that on my combi to save buying another?

Cheers for you help someone who makes sense( there seems to be a shortage)

Paul

On Fri, 05 Aug 2005 12:03:47 +0100, Paul wrote:

Snip
If you want fast bath fill then you will require a high flowrate combi,
which are more expensive.

Try these for cheap combi's. They are the cheapest. Give them a ring:
http://www.uselessenergy.org.uk/boilers_prices.asp

Go for in this order:

- Glow-Worm 38CXI @ £719.19
- Worcester Greenstar 35HE Plus @ £832.30
- Isar 35HE @ £685.00


How quickly on bath filling is not very quickly? I can afford the glow
worm 30CXI or the Ideal HE30 which would you pick? The glow worm has a
stainless steel heat exchanger is this better?

I have just had to replace the control pack on my old CH system will i
be able to use that on my combi to save buying another?

Cheers for you help someone who makes sense( there seems to be a shortage)

Paul

I would suggest checking on the track record of Dr Drivel/IMM before
forming an opinion.


The Glow Worm (highest power of these) manages 15 litres/minute for a
temperature increase of 35 degrees. Assuming that the water supply
can deliver this rate (you should check that), then in the winter,
when the cold water temperature is around 5-8 degrees, it means that
in effect this will be the *total* rate supplied to a bath or shower
at 40 or so degrees.

In the context of a bath, which requires 150 litres to be at all
reasonable, it would take around 10 minutes to fill. You may be OK
with that, or you may not.

You could use your existing controller with any of these boilers
although some have one built in.

A stainless steel heat exchanger is a good idea.





--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 05 Aug 2005 12:03:47 +0100, Paul wrote:

Snip
If you want fast bath fill then you will require a high flowrate combi,
which are more expensive.

Try these for cheap combi's. They are the cheapest. Give them a ring:
http://www.uselessenergy.org.uk/boilers_prices.asp

Go for in this order:

- Glow-Worm 38CXI @ £719.19
- Worcester Greenstar 35HE Plus @ £832.30
- Isar 35HE @ £685.00


How quickly on bath filling is not very quickly? I can afford the glow
worm 30CXI or the Ideal HE30 which would you pick? The glow worm has a
stainless steel heat exchanger is this better?

I have just had to replace the control pack on my old CH system will i
be able to use that on my combi to save buying another?

Cheers for you help someone who makes sense( there seems to be a
shortage)

Paul

I would suggest checking on the track record of Dr Drivel/IMM before
forming an opinion.

Not another know-it-all Internet amateur.

The Glow Worm (highest power of these) manages 15 litres/minute for a
temperature increase of 35 degrees. Assuming that the water supply
can deliver this rate (you should check that), then in the winter,
when the cold water temperature is around 5-8 degrees, it means that
in effect this will be the *total* rate supplied to a bath or shower
at 40 or so degrees.

In the context of a bath, which requires 150 litres to be at all
reasonable,

100 litres is the modern standard, as the baths are shaped for the human
body.

it would take around 10 minutes to fill. You may be OK
with that, or you may not.

See my other post.

You could use your existing controller with any of these boilers
although some have one built in.

A stainless steel heat exchanger is a good idea.

I would suggest checking on the track record
of Dr Drivel/IMM before forming an opinion.

So would I, and you will find sound advise. Doctor Evil/Doctor
Drivel/IMM, any of those, all the same poster, and clearly very
experienced. I buy and renovate houses, and he is the only one worth
reading on heating and water systems. I have used his advice to great
effect in the past, and Google a lot on his posts. His detractors are
not worth taking seriously at all. Just take no notice of them. In a
current thread, he gave a landlord excellent options, while the other
contributors merely stupidly slagged and mainly took up space.

It takes a while to realise which people to take notice of. Andy Wade,
who has been missing of late, is good for electrics, and various others
on building work.

On 5 Aug 2005 09:08:32 -0700, wrote:

I would suggest checking on the track record
of Dr Drivel/IMM before forming an opinion.

So would I, and you will find sound advise. Doctor Evil/Doctor
Drivel/IMM, any of those, all the same poster, and clearly very
experienced.

Are you sure?

- Typically proposes use of one or two combis regardless of the
requirement and without taking regard to whether the water supply is
adequate or the gas supply used beyond spec.

- Comes up with overly complicated solutions which apparently defy the
laws of physics using thermal stores which add complexity and reduce
reliability while providing no real benefit to the user.

- Tries to alter the OP's requirement when it becomes clear that the
recommended solution won't work

- Advocates use of multipoint water heaters in an unapproved mode

- Has a new "best product" each month

- Advocates ridiculous levels of insulation and hermetic sealing to
houses while completely missing the larger issues.

- Claims to be professionally qualified but is evasive when asked
about it.

- Is unable/unwilling to read manufacturer instructions on products
and then blames the product when problems happen.

These are just a few which spring to mind. It would be advisable to
establish credentials and seek professional opinions ......





--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

wrote:
I would suggest checking on the track record
of Dr Drivel/IMM before forming an opinion.


So would I, and you will find sound advise. Doctor Evil/Doctor
Drivel/IMM, any of those, all the same poster, and clearly very
experienced. I buy and renovate houses, and he is the only one worth
reading on heating and water systems. I have used his advice to great
effect in the past, and Google a lot on his posts. His detractors are
not worth taking seriously at all. Just take no notice of them. In a
current thread, he gave a landlord excellent options, while the other
contributors merely stupidly slagged and mainly took up space.


Some contributors such as yourself appear to be easily fooled by
verbose but frequently stupid, and generally inadequate, responses from
the resident one size fits all, combi advocate who is frequently unable
to write properly in the English language and never justifies his
figures. If you really believe that IMM is worth reading and believing,
then I'm very suspicious of your appraisal and critical facilities and
would never under any circumstances attach any credulity to your
responses! Do you live in the next door council flat, which you have
purchased?

Messrs Hall, Plowman, Sirett and Raden etc, have the advantage of being
expert experienced practitioners rather than waffling internet
theorists, so have far greater credibility when a problem is being
discussed.

Regards
Capitol

wrote:

I would suggest checking on the track record
of Dr Drivel/IMM before forming an opinion.

So would I, and you will find sound advise. Doctor Evil/Doctor
Drivel/IMM, any of those, all the same poster, and clearly very
experienced. I buy and renovate houses, and he is the only one worth
reading on heating and water systems. I have used his advice to great
effect in the past, and Google a lot on his posts.

You are Drivels mother and I claim my five pound note

--

"Paul" wrote in message
...

Snip
If you want fast bath fill then you
will require a high flowrate combi,
which are more expensive.

Try these for cheap combi's. They are
the cheapest. Give them a ring:
http://www.uselessenergy.org.uk/boilers_prices.asp

Go for in this order:

- Glow-Worm 38CXI @ £719.19
- Worcester Greenstar 35HE Plus @ £832.30
- Isar 35HE @ £685.00

How quickly on bath filling is not very quickly?

8 to 10 minutes, depending on bath size and temperature of in the incoming
cold mains water. A very large bath will be irritating to fill. A modern
100 litres bath is not that bad. Less in summer when the mains temperature
is higher.

With combi's many people find it is best to fill the bath 1/3 full and then
get in while still filling, as the Japanese do. But many people can't
figure out this simple procedure. Some use a hair washing shower attachment
while sitting in the bath, and this also fills as you go along.

Go for the high flowrates and you will not be that disappointed. There are
combi's with higher flowrates than the best in the list, but they cost more.

I can afford the glow worm 30CXI or
the Ideal HE30 which would you pick?
The glow worm has a stainless steel
heat exchanger is this better?

Glow Worm. It is basically a Vaillant, and made in Holland. The Dutch
invented condensing boilers, and 90% plus of boilers are condensers.

I have just had to replace the
control pack on my old CH system will i
be able to use that on my combi to
save buying another?

Control pack? Do you mean programmer? Timeclock? What make have you
installed?

Cheers for you help someone who
makes sense( there seems to be a shortage)

This is the Internet, so the loonies can have a say alongside all the bright
ones. Sadly, the unaware may not know the difference.

snip
Control pack? Do you mean programmer? Timeclock? What make have you
installed?


Cheers for you help someone who
makes sense( there seems to be a shortage)


This is the Internet, so the loonies can have a say alongside all the bright
ones. Sadly, the unaware may not know the difference.


It is a Danfoss Control Pack from www.screwfix.com/ 66341-38 I guess I
can utalise the programme, room stat and wiring box.

Paul

"Paul" wrote in message
...
snip
Control pack? Do you mean programmer? Timeclock? What make have you
installed?


Cheers for you help someone who
makes sense( there seems to be a shortage)


This is the Internet, so the loonies can have a say alongside all the
bright
ones. Sadly, the unaware may not know the difference.


It is a Danfoss Control Pack from www.screwfix.com/ 66341-38 I guess I
can utalise the programme, room stat and wiring box.

Paul

I would say nothing salvagable from that setup. It can be used but not
worth it for what it offers and the hassle. Go for:
Honeywell T6667B1085 CM67 Prog Room Stat With Optimum Start
£54.05 Including VAT
http://tinyurl.com/9qwal

The CM67 requires only a two core cable. Childs play to fit. This is the
stat and programmer all in one with about 6 different temperature times
during the day - you set temperatures. It optimum starts. That is, you
tell it the start time in the morning and it figures out the time to take to
warm up the boiler. If a warm morning it will hold off the boiler until the
start time. Well worth it, and saves money on gas.

"Doctor Drivel" wrote:

8 to 10 minutes, depending on bath size and temperature of in the incoming
cold mains water. A very large bath will be irritating to fill.

So the tablets are working?

The Dutch invented condensing boilers, and 90% plus of boilers are condensers.

90% already? That tosser Prescott has done a really good job.
--

"Matt" wrote in message
...
"Doctor Drivel" wrote:

8 to 10 minutes, depending on bath size and temperature of in the
incoming
cold mains water. A very large bath will be irritating to fill.

So the tablets are working?

Yes, the salt tablets do reduce scale.

snip drivel

Paul wrote:

Snip

If you want fast bath fill then you will require a high flowrate combi,
which are more expensive.

Try these for cheap combi's. They are the cheapest. Give them a ring:
http://www.uselessenergy.org.uk/boilers_prices.asp

Go for in this order:

- Glow-Worm 38CXI @ £719.19
- Worcester Greenstar 35HE Plus @ £832.30
- Isar 35HE @ £685.00


How quickly on bath filling is not very quickly? I can afford the glow
worm 30CXI or the Ideal HE30 which would you pick? The glow worm has a
stainless steel heat exchanger is this better?

I fitted an Isar HE35 (a combination of requirements lead to its choice
- a primary one being it was small enough to fit the space it needed to
go in, and the WB was too big!).

From a hot water performance perspective it is just about adequate, but
I am glad I did not fit a smaller one. If you hardly ever use the bath
however you may find the 30kW ones acceptable.

BTW Beware of Drivel's claims of a "average" bath being 100 litres. He
has been challenged many times on this claim, and yet has never been
able to substantiate it. Most baths will be a fair bit more than this
(unless you like a 3" deep puddle). So using a figure of 150 litres may
be a safer assumption.

I have just had to replace the control pack on my old CH system will i
be able to use that on my combi to save buying another?

You should certainly be able to use the stat and the programmer. There
will be no need for the rest unless you are also planning to keep the
hot water cylinder (which you could drive from the heating side of a
combi if you wanted).

If you want more flexibility and better temperature control of the
heating through the day, then a programmable stat may be a better
choice. Screwfix do a range of Horstman ones that are quite good and
well priced.

http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/...12157&ts=58352



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...

If you want more flexibility and better temperature control of the
heating through the day, then a programmable stat may be a better
choice. Screwfix do a range of Horstman ones that are quite good and
well priced.

http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/...12157&ts=58352

Not worth going for when the CM67 is available for just under £50. The has
no optimisation and very large and ugly looking. The cheap end of the
market. The CM67 is world away from such stuff.

Another example of poor advice.

Doctor Drivel wrote:

Not worth going for when the CM67 is available for just under £50. The has
no optimisation and very large and ugly looking. The cheap end of the

Optimisation in a small property with relatively low total heating
demand is of dubtfull value - especially when coupled to a combi that is
significantly overspecified from a heating load perspective.

Note also that the 50 quid version is typically the version *without*
the optimum start capability.

As to "large an ugly looking", they are actually very similar in size,
and one could argue the Centaurstat has nice clean lines without all the
wavy lines of the Honeywell. However each to his own.

market. The CM67 is world away from such stuff.

It will do the job more than well enough at one third of the price. A
win win situation!

BTW, check TLC for programmable stats - they have a good range.

Another example of poor advice.

So stop offering it then.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Fri, 05 Aug 2005 12:03:47 +0100, Paul wrote:

Snip
If you want fast bath fill then you will require a high flowrate combi,
which are more expensive.

Try these for cheap combi's. They are the cheapest. Give them a ring:
http://www.uselessenergy.org.uk/boilers_prices.asp

Go for in this order:

- Glow-Worm 38CXI @ £719.19
- Worcester Greenstar 35HE Plus @ £832.30
- Isar 35HE @ £685.00


How quickly on bath filling is not very quickly? I can afford the glow
worm 30CXI or the Ideal HE30 which would you pick? The glow worm has a
stainless steel heat exchanger is this better?

I have just had to replace the control pack on my old CH system will i
be able to use that on my combi to save buying another?

Cheers for you help someone who makes sense( there seems to be a shortage)

Paul

These are all middle to upper-middle market products.
The only control parts you will need are the wall thermostat and timer.

Although some manufacturers are quoting long guarantees on
Silicon-Aluminium heat exchangers I'll _feel_ more content with a S/S unit.

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

"Doctor Drivel" wrote:

Combi's are high rated burners for the DHW side,
so lots of oomph for CH. It will not fill the bath quickly at all. It will
give very good showers. If you don't mind slow bath fills or shower most of
the time, then it is fine.

Has someone put something in his tea?


--

"Matt" wrote in message
...
"Doctor Drivel" wrote:

Combi's are high rated burners for the DHW side,
so lots of oomph for CH. It will not fill the bath quickly at all. It
will
give very good showers. If you don't mind slow bath fills or shower most
of
the time, then it is fine.

Has someone

snip Internet lunacy

Combi's are high rated burners for the DHW side,
so lots of oomph for CH. It will not fill the bath quickly at all. It
will
give very good showers. If you don't mind slow bath fills or shower most
of
the time, then it is fine.

Has someone put something in his tea?

I think someone has stolen his account.

Christian.

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
et...
Combi's are high rated burners for the DHW side,
so lots of oomph for CH. It will not fill the bath quickly at all. It
will
give very good showers. If you don't mind slow bath fills or shower
most
of
the time, then it is fine.

Has someone put something in his tea?

I think someone has stolen his account.

My tea account?

On Fri, 5 Aug 2005 11:07:41 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


Give this a miss. The condensing boiler has a secondary heat exchanger. Bad
news.

Why?

Give this a miss. The condensing boiler has a secondary heat exchanger.
Bad news.

Why?

Secondary exchanger designs are rehashed non-condensing boilers. As a
non-condensing boiler doesn't produce streams of corrosive acid, they were
often designed with a heat exchanger directly above a upward firing burner.
However, by bolting an additional exchanger on, the boiler starts to
condense (you'd hope so!). This acidic condensate then goes downwards
(gravity) and lands on the burner, which corrodes. Meanwhile, the existing
heat exchanger also gets covered in acid, which is was never designed to
cope with.

Christian.

"s--p--o--n--i--x" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 5 Aug 2005 11:07:41 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:

Give this a miss. The condensing boiler
has a secondary heat exchanger. Bad
news.

Why?

If I recall this was explained to you:


"s--p--o--n--i--x" wrote in message
...

- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

I'm still looking for a CH condensing combi boiler and am looking for
recommendations.

I'm thinking of possibly buying a Biasi
from B&Q because of the
cracking deals on them at the moment
and some people recommend them
highly.

However, I'm also considering going for
something more expensive. I'd
therefore like some suggestions on
what to "shortlist". What is a good
reliable brand nowadays? Why should
I choose expensive brand X over a
cheap Biasi?

I'm after feedback from people that
actually own the boiler in
question. I'm not after "I heard of
someone who had an XYZ and it was
crap" or "It's cheap so it must be crap"
type stuff. I'm after first
hand experiences.

sponix

DON'T get any condensing boiler with a secondary heat exchanger. There are
now tons of these around as the makers have converted their old ranges using
most of the old parts. It is a Heat Robinson affair. The BIASI has a
secondary heat exchanger.

Get a one piece heat exchanger, side or downward firing burner. The Ideal
Icos and Glow Worm Condensers are good and well priced. I would go for the
Glow Worm. Well priced and good. If you buy cheapo will may regret it



"s--p--o--n--i--x" wrote in message
...

Been doing a trawl for a replacement combi boiler...

B&Q have some very good deals on Biasi
boilers (Presumably due to the
exchange rate)

And volume sales

They appear to be well made, very compact and have some versatile
flueing options.

If condensing and they have a secondary condensing heat exchanger don't
bother. Avoid ANY boiler with a secondary heat exchanger. Many makers have
just sipped them in to comply with the 1st Aril condensing regs. Buy
boilers with a top mounted burners and a one piece heat exchanger.

Avoid anything made by Ravenheat. BIASI are better. The non-condensing
combi is a well priced budget boiler. They use a lot of pretty well
standard parts, so simple enough.

Why don't you get a very high flowrate multi-point instant water heater and
a small condensing system boiler for the heating. Two simple systems. No
tanks or cylinders and wizzo hot water on-demand flowrates. Rinnai, the
Japanese maker who are the world's largest maker of gas appliances, are now
importing into the UK. There products are "excellent". 38 litres/min?
They have it. They regulate the hot water output to +- 1 degree F. You can
have a remote control temperature control, one is waterproof for the shower,
so you have the temperature say 37C for the shower and them zap it up to 55C
for the kitchen sink. The Rinnia can also be fitted "outside" on an outside
wall, if you have location and fluing problems. Rinnia is probably the
largest selling instant water heater in the world.

This is a highly cost effective route.

Paul wrote:
I have to replace my old boiler

What did she do

Richard Conway wrote:
Paul wrote:

I have to replace my old boiler


What did she do

sadly the top where the flue joins is patched and on it last legs

Paul

On Fri, 05 Aug 2005 09:10:00 +0100, Paul wrote:

I have to replace my old boiler so and going for a combi i live in a 2
bed bungalow and have an electric shower. After searching the net I have
come up with two options. Any thoughts for or against each one.

Biasi Rive compact HE £468.83 inc vat, flue and timer

FWIW, the Biasi has a stainless steel heat exchanger with copper
waterways.

sponix

"s--p--o--n--i--x" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 05 Aug 2005 09:10:00 +0100, Paul wrote:

I have to replace my old boiler so and going for a combi i live in a 2
bed bungalow and have an electric shower. After searching the net I have
come up with two options. Any thoughts for or against each one.

Biasi Rive compact HE £468.83 inc vat, flue and timer

FWIW, the Biasi has a stainless steel heat exchanger with copper
waterways.

...and secondary one too, so not worth a light.