ALLERGIC REACTION TO LOFT INSULATION
 

Millfold Group came today and laid Fibreglass insulation in my loft =
they said it was Rockwool but later retracted haveing said this. Anyway
the guys came and unrolled the stuff. I went up the ladder to have a
look and touched the insulation and not too long after I felt wheezy
and itching all over my body. My arms and hands were actually read and
feeling very itchy.
It made me think that I am allergic to the material they used. I told
them to remove it and put something else. Is there something else ?
and how many people have this type of loft insulation = is it safe in
the long run ?
They originally said it is Rockwool - whatever that is - but then said
no, it is fibreglass.
Does this material in time become "friendly", ie not causing itchiness
and wheezing to the chest.
Why do they put this kind of material in the lost - is it really that
effective for heat preservation in the winter ?
Had I known it would cause this reaction I would not have had the loft
insulated.
Has anyone a similar experience - different loft insulation installed ?

j Hunt

Chris Bacon wrote:

Rockwool is slightly less irritating.

It is also a little duller and softer. Fiberglass is usually quite a
bright yellow. Both are irritants though. Fiber glass is awful. Throw
your clothes away when using that. And wash you hand before you go we
wees, not just after.

Make sure you have no draughts through from the loft. A cold bath will
wash the glass away. But you will have to wash your clothes three or
four times.

It depends on who told you it was rockwool/fibreglass whether the
people who laid it are at fault. For the general everyday use the terms
rockwool and fibreglass are interchangeable.

If someone not directly involved in the contract has used the term
loosely, all they have to do is deny they said it.

It should make a tremendous difference whichever they put down, come
next winter.

Weatherlawyer wrote:
Chris Bacon wrote:
Rockwool is slightly less irritating. (than fibreglass)

It is also a little duller and softer. Fiberglass is usually quite a
bright yellow.

Hm, I've seen that ages ago - have only seen pink, recently.


Fiber glass is awful.

Not nice, I'll grant. Are you a Yank?

On 1 Aug 2005 11:20:54 -0700, wrote:


It made me think that I am allergic to the material they used.

I'd apply for a Nobel prize then, you have just discovered proteins
in fibreglass.

I told them to remove it and put something else.

Can guess what they thought of that idea.

Is there something else ?

Several substances, most can cause slight irritation (but none can
cause allergy).

and how many people have this type of loft insulation

Well over half the countries houses at a guess.

is it safe in the long run ?

It is perfectly safe in both the long and short run.

Does this material in time become "friendly", ie not causing itchiness
and wheezing to the chest.

It can cause skin irritation when disturbed or handled, the other
symptoms are mostly psychosomatic.

Why do they put this kind of material in the lost - is it really that
effective for heat preservation in the winter ?

Yes, that's why it is used.

--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/

On 1 Aug 2005 11:20:54 -0700, wrote:

Millfold Group came today and laid Fibreglass insulation in my loft =
they said it was Rockwool but later retracted haveing said this. Anyway
the guys came and unrolled the stuff. I went up the ladder to have a
look and touched the insulation and not too long after I felt wheezy
and itching all over my body. My arms and hands were actually read and
feeling very itchy.
It made me think that I am allergic to the material they used. I told
them to remove it and put something else. Is there something else ?
and how many people have this type of loft insulation = is it safe in
the long run ?
They originally said it is Rockwool - whatever that is - but then said
no, it is fibreglass.
Does this material in time become "friendly", ie not causing itchiness
and wheezing to the chest.
Why do they put this kind of material in the lost - is it really that
effective for heat preservation in the winter ?
Had I known it would cause this reaction I would not have had the loft
insulated.
Has anyone a similar experience - different loft insulation installed ?

Hi,

In the past it's been mentioned that spraying with a dilute PVA
solution will bind loose fibres on the surface.

cheers,
Pete.

THANKS EVERYONE. SO..... IS FIBREGLASS TOXIC ????? If it has
affected me so badly how can I argue it is good to have in the house ?
Also will I never be able to use the loft for storage so that the
fibreglass remains undisturbed. ???
I must ask them to remove the insulation material
but what is the alternative ??? the company said the only other
alternative they have is
"Whitewool" - what is this - does anyone know ???

PS
this article is quite worrying:
http://www.sustainableenterprises.com/fin/

Pete C wrote:
In the past it's been mentioned that spraying with a dilute PVA
solution will bind loose fibres on the surface.

And spraying with a dilute H2O solution will help the dust settle anyway.

Owain

wrote in message
oups.com...
I must ask them to remove the insulation material
but what is the alternative ??? the company said the only other
alternative they have is
"Whitewool" - what is this - does anyone know ???

PS
this article is quite worrying:
http://www.sustainableenterprises.com/fin/

Courtesy of Google:

www.firstinsulation.com/product_whitewool.php

Fred

Peter Parry wrote:
On 1 Aug 2005 11:20:54 -0700, wrote:


It made me think that I am allergic to the material they used.

I'd apply for a Nobel prize then, you have just discovered proteins
in fibreglass.

snip

is it safe in the long run ?

It is perfectly safe in both the long and short run.

Does this material in time become "friendly", ie not causing itchiness
and wheezing to the chest.

It can cause skin irritation when disturbed or handled, the other
symptoms are mostly psychosomatic.


interesting....

This subject has somewhat concerned me for years, but only around the
times I've been installing it or working in an attic. (IMHE it never
properly settles - even a minor disturbance stirs it up again). Then I
forget about it... until you see the subject on uk.d-i-y....

My concern is the comparison with asbestos - I've known 2 people who
died of asbestosis. My (limited) understanding is that asbestosis (&
isn't there a similar lung-choking complaint that coal miners get?) is
that its primary cause is breathing asbestos dust into the lungs.
Presumably the dust (a) congests the airways but also lingers and
interacts over a long timespan with the cells lining the lungs to cause
mutation into cancerous cells. No allergic reaction there SFAIUI, but
horrible consequences.

Why doesn't this happen with fibreglass/rockwool? The first stage of
breathing in the dust & feeling choked off is the same. Why is it
certain that the next stage(s) don't follow, as in asbestosis?
Asbestosis may take decades to show up - why won't possible ill-effects
of fibreglass be the same?

Is the skin itchiness dues to fibre size or shape or both?

BTW what is the difference between fibreglass and rockwool? Aren't
these essentially the same thing -just different tradce names - made by
melting sand and spinning it, like sugar in a candyfloss machine?

In message , writes
On 1 Aug,
wrote:


This subject has somewhat concerned me for years, but only around the
times I've been installing it or working in an attic. (IMHE it never
properly settles - even a minor disturbance stirs it up again). Then I
forget about it... until you see the subject on uk.d-i-y....

My concern is the comparison with asbestos - I've known 2 people who
died of asbestosis. My (limited) understanding is that asbestosis (&
isn't there a similar lung-choking complaint that coal miners get?) is
that its primary cause is breathing asbestos dust into the lungs.

The party line (I'm *not* convinced by it)

The problem with asbestos is that the fibres will break up into finer
particles, eventually being small enough to peirce the mitochondria of cells,
and even the DNA molecules.

Really ?

--
geoff

In article ,
says...

snip comments re. fibreglass


It can cause skin irritation when disturbed or handled, the other
symptoms are mostly psychosomatic.


Whilst I generally have regard to your latterly infrequent posts,
this particular point I disagree with, on a personal front.

Unfortunately, my lungs have suffered over the years from copious
amounts of farm dust inhalation, followed by a reasonable amount of
industrial fume inhalation, all of which was preceded by bronchitis at
age 18. I have to say though that I have not yet reached age 50.

For the last twelve years or so my job has necessitated the
occasional couple of hours in various glassfibre insulated loft spaces.
If I don't have a mask handy, then usually within a few minutes I am
reduced to a helpless coughing wreck. the coughing often lasts to some
degree for an hour or two after the exposure. I have also noticed that
the earlier green, more abrasive glassfibre is much more dusty, and
causes more or stronger symptoms.

Rockwool seems not to be a problem...
--
Regards,

Will.

On 01 Aug 2005 18:26:41 GMT, Ian Stirling
wrote:

wrote:
Millfold Group came today and laid Fibreglass insulation in my loft =
they said it was Rockwool but later retracted haveing said this. Anyway
the guys came and unrolled the stuff. I went up the ladder to have a
look and touched the insulation and not too long after I felt wheezy
and itching all over my body. My arms and hands were actually read and
feeling very itchy.

Touched it?
Fiberlass will make your body itch.

I think some people are more contact sensitive to it than others. I
can be up to my elbows in it all day with no issues (wearing a mask
etc).

I insulated my loft with the stuff years ago and you can see all the
fibres floating in the air as you move it (so handle it gently /
slowly).

Maybe my immunity may come from spending much of my yoof fiberglassing
(not the *same* stuff I know but also effects some people) real and
model boats.

Nowdays I try to wear gloves etc ..

All the best ..

T i m

In message , T i m
writes
On 01 Aug 2005 18:26:41 GMT, Ian Stirling
wrote:

wrote:
Millfold Group came today and laid Fibreglass insulation in my loft =
they said it was Rockwool but later retracted haveing said this. Anyway
the guys came and unrolled the stuff. I went up the ladder to have a
look and touched the insulation and not too long after I felt wheezy
and itching all over my body. My arms and hands were actually read and
feeling very itchy.

Touched it?
Fiberlass will make your body itch.

I think some people are more contact sensitive to it than others. I
can be up to my elbows in it all day with no issues (wearing a mask
etc).

I insulated my loft with the stuff years ago and you can see all the
fibres floating in the air as you move it (so handle it gently /
slowly).

I think you and me seem to have things in common


Maybe my immunity may come from spending much of my yoof fiberglassing
(not the *same* stuff I know but also effects some people) real and
model boats.

Nowdays I try to wear gloves etc ..

Yeah, but don't you hate them ?

--
geoff

In message , dave
writes
On Mon, 01 Aug 2005 21:44:31 +0100, Owain
wrote:

Pete C wrote:
In the past it's been mentioned that spraying with a dilute PVA
solution will bind loose fibres on the surface.

And spraying with a dilute H2O solution will help the dust settle anyway.

Owain

Dilute H2O?

Dilute it enough and it just ends up being water

--
geoff

On Tue, 02 Aug 2005 00:50:50 GMT, raden wrote:


Dilute it enough and it just ends up being water

Homeopathic water surely?

--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/

TO GET OVER MY PROBLEM - SHOULD I HAVE THE FIBRE GLASS INSULATION
REMOVED FROM MY LOFT - this I suppose is not an easy task and is itself
hazardous.
the insulation people just covered the whole of the attice and all the
joist.
I thought they would have tucked the insulation material in between the
joists.
the loft is unusable and nothing can be stored. - Probably the dust
also got into the water tank.
HELP PLEASE

"Peter Parry" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 02 Aug 2005 00:50:50 GMT, raden wrote:


Dilute it enough and it just ends up being water

Homeopathic water surely?

By now all water is homeopathic as most of the homeopathic water goes down
the drain.
You should be able to homoeopathically treat any illness with water from the
tap by now.

On Tue, 2 Aug 2005 00:44:49 +0100, Will wrote:

In article ,
says...



For the last twelve years or so my job has necessitated the
occasional couple of hours in various glassfibre insulated loft spaces.
If I don't have a mask handy, then usually within a few minutes I am
reduced to a helpless coughing wreck. the coughing often lasts to some
degree for an hour or two after the exposure. I have also noticed that
the earlier green, more abrasive glassfibre is much more dusty, and
causes more or stronger symptoms.

Any particulate matter can cause irritation and coughing, fibreglass
in particular can also irritate the skin. What fibreglass cannot do
is cause an allergic reaction.

--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/

In article . com,
" says...
TO GET OVER MY PROBLEM - SHOULD I HAVE THE FIBRE GLASS INSULATION
REMOVED FROM MY LOFT - this I suppose is not an easy task and is itself
hazardous.
the insulation people just covered the whole of the attice and all the
joist.
I thought they would have tucked the insulation material in between the
joists.

That would be less effective from an insulation point of view -
covering the joists (and eliminating the possibility of gaps between
joist and wadding) will keep the heat in better.

the loft is unusable and nothing can be stored. - Probably the dust
also got into the water tank.
HELP PLEASE


Sit down and have a nice cup of tea. The dust from fibreglass is not
hazardous, just irritating to some people. Consider some of the
suggestions that have been made - I liked the one about spraying with
dilute PVA.

On 1 Aug 2005 13:40:53 -0700, wrote:

THANKS EVERYONE. SO..... IS FIBREGLASS TOXIC ????? If it has
affected me so badly how can I argue it is good to have in the house ?
Also will I never be able to use the loft for storage so that the
fibreglass remains undisturbed. ???
I must ask them to remove the insulation material
but what is the alternative ??? the company said the only other
alternative they have is
"Whitewool" - what is this - does anyone know ???


Knauf do an "itch free" fibrer glass. You can get it from B&Q as well
as insulation vendors (Encon etc). Its usefull because as well as itch
free it is also contained within its own sleeve.



PS
this article is quite worrying:
http://www.sustainableenterprises.com/fin/

You get a lot of scaremongering on the internet!

On Mon, 01 Aug 2005 23:54:39 GMT, raden wrote:


I think some people are more contact sensitive to it than others. I
can be up to my elbows in it all day with no issues (wearing a mask
etc).

I insulated my loft with the stuff years ago and you can see all the
fibres floating in the air as you move it (so handle it gently /
slowly).

I think you and me seem to have things in common

;-)


Maybe my immunity may come from spending much of my yoof fiberglassing
(not the *same* stuff I know but also effects some people) real and
model boats.

Nowdays I try to wear gloves etc ..

Yeah, but don't you hate them ?

Well, I actually wear one glove so I have one hand 'free' to get some
feel and the other for getting messy ;-)

All the best ..

T i m

On 1 Aug 2005 13:40:53 -0700, wrote:

THANKS EVERYONE. SO..... IS FIBREGLASS TOXIC ?????

No.


--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/

On 2 Aug 2005 01:02:24 -0700, wrote:

TO GET OVER MY PROBLEM - SHOULD I HAVE THE FIBRE GLASS INSULATION
REMOVED FROM MY LOFT -

Depends upon whether you feel the large cost would be worth it.

this I suppose is not an easy task and is itself hazardous.

It isn't hazardous at all but it isn't particularly easy and would
fill your house with fibreglass particles.

If you wanted to ensure few fibres escaped during the process then
you would have to commission work similar to that used for removal of
blown asbestos insulation and that would be very expensive (several
thousand pounds).

the insulation people just covered the whole of the attice and all the
joist. I thought they would have tucked the insulation material in between the
joists.

Depends upon the depth laid, modern insulation standards call for
insulation depths greater than the joist depth so insulation rolls
are often laid between joists and a second layer added over that at
right angles to the first.



--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/

On Tue, 02 Aug 2005 11:02:35 +0100, Peter Parry
wrote:

Any particulate matter can cause irritation and coughing, fibreglass
in particular can also irritate the skin. What fibreglass cannot do
is cause an allergic reaction.

That probably depends on whether you are using the term allergy in a
strict and technical sense. If you are referring only to IgE mediated
hypersensitivity, then I think you are right - an allergy can only be
cause by a protein.

Aspirin, however, is not a protein, and people speak of being allergic
to aspirin.

Mr F.

On Tue, 02 Aug 2005 13:19:03 +0100, Mr Fizzion
wrote:

On Tue, 02 Aug 2005 11:02:35 +0100, Peter Parry
wrote:

Any particulate matter can cause irritation and coughing, fibreglass
in particular can also irritate the skin. What fibreglass cannot do
is cause an allergic reaction.

That probably depends on whether you are using the term allergy in a
strict and technical sense. If you are referring only to IgE mediated
hypersensitivity, then I think you are right - an allergy can only be
cause by a protein.

As you say allergies can only be caused by a protein. Certain
medicines and radiocontrast dyes can induce sensitivity reactions and
in some cases an anaphylactoid reaction which is treated similarly to
an anaphylactic reaction.

Non protein sensitivities cannot however produce allergic
sensitisation and one cannot be allergic to fibreglass which is
essentially inert.

Aspirin, however, is not a protein, and people speak of being allergic
to aspirin.

Indeed, but it does not make it true. I know someone who claims to
be highly allergic to Asprin yet will eat Camembert Cheese by the
pound. In particular most sensitivities do not involve an allergic
reaction and specifically anaphylactic reaction.

The difference can be quite important, I once had to stop a well
meaning lady trying to inject an Epipen she carried for her own
peanut allergy into a young girl having a hysterical fit because she
had caught a whiff of floor polish which she was "allergic to" that
week.

--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/

On Tue, 02 Aug 2005 14:53:59 +0100, Peter Parry
wrote:

Aspirin, however, is not a protein, and people speak of being allergic
to aspirin.

Indeed, but it does not make it true. I know someone who claims to
be highly allergic to Asprin yet will eat Camembert Cheese by the
pound. In particular most sensitivities do not involve an allergic
reaction and specifically anaphylactic reaction.

The difference can be quite important, I once had to stop a well
meaning lady trying to inject an Epipen she carried for her own
peanut allergy into a young girl having a hysterical fit because she
had caught a whiff of floor polish which she was "allergic to" that
week.

I'm not sure you're right on this...but then again I'm not sure I'm
right either :-)

It would appear that hypersensitivity to penicillin is a type 1
hypersensitivity mediated by IgE. Penicillin is certainly not a
protein as the structure is far too simple:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penicillin
(Look at the picture)

This article discusses allergic responses to penicillin and states
that the response is mediated by IgE and can cause anaphylaxis:

http://www.clevelandclinicmeded.com/...enallergy1.htm

Mr F

Thank you Adrian
I am not sectionable - not yet - but quite mad about the decision to
get the insulation done. I should have asked more questions,
then they would have told me what work would be involved, what material
used and perhaps they would also have mentioned that the loft would
become unusable.

I am grateful for all the advice give on this topic.
Jo+

"Peter Parry" wrote in message


On 1 Aug 2005 13:40:53 -0700, wrote:

THANKS EVERYONE. SO..... IS FIBREGLASS TOXIC ?????

No.

You should be feeling better by now. If you washed in hot water you
probably enhanced the itching. It are splinters wots adoin of it. Going
up there in high summer made the spicules stick to you. It cuts like
(wait for it. Wait for it!) Glass.

You won't have noticed it until ages after. Then you'd have been
scratching like you had fleas.

You are very unlikely to make that mistake again.

I forgot about the pink stuff. I suppose it all depends where you buy it
from.

If you ever have to go in the loft again just wear an old pair of undies
then bin them and have a cold shower or bath when you get down.

Once the dust settles, there will be almost no bad effects. If you
insist on going up there often, cover the attic with hardboard or
some-such.


--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

In message ,
"dennis@home" writes

"Peter Parry" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 02 Aug 2005 00:50:50 GMT, raden wrote:


Dilute it enough and it just ends up being water

Homeopathic water surely?

By now all water is homeopathic as most of the homeopathic water goes down
the drain.
You should be able to homoeopathically treat any illness with water from the
tap by now.


Now, that is a serious observation


--
geoff

T i m wrote:

Well, I actually wear one glove so I have one hand 'free' to get some
feel and the other for getting messy ;-)

I find a box of 100 latex examination gloves from CPC are good for all
the times you want protection from "messy" while retaining some feel.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

When my house was modernised back in 1981 they use Rockwool that was very
floppy, no strength of its own. This stuff always went for my throat. I've
recently done a big conversion and in the stud walls I used Sheffiled
Insulation RockWool Slab. This is very stiff and can be cut with a Bread
knife very easily. This stuff has no effect on me. The very latest stuff I
bought is called Rock Silk by Knauf Insulations. I still bought it from
Sheffield Insulations. First load was 100mm thick second load I bought 75mm.


Chris


x-- 100 Proof News - http://www.100ProofNews.com
x-- 30+ Days Binary Retention with High Completion
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x-- UNLIMITED DOWNLOAD

wrote:

THANKS EVERYONE. SO..... IS FIBREGLASS TOXIC ????? If it has

Not as such.

If you handle it you will get loads of tiny glass splinters in your
skin. You now know what that feels like.

If you move it about you will get loads of them airborne. Inhale them
and you get the same effect as you felt on your skin in your trachea and
lungs.

affected me so badly how can I argue it is good to have in the house ?

Once it is down, you will no longer need to handle it.

The dust will settle out, and after than there should be no further
problem if you leave it undisturbed.

Also will I never be able to use the loft for storage so that the
fibreglass remains undisturbed. ???

Can't see why not. May be a bit tricky if you have covered up all the
ceiling joists so you can't see them.

I must ask them to remove the insulation material

Leave it alone, and you will probably be fine. The adverse affects are
only a result of contact with the fibres. It is pretty inert, and also
offers good fire resistance. It does not hold moisture, or support
insect or mould growth. If you are worried then board over it. You will
loose a little of the thermal performance but not much. You will also
gain more useful storage space.

this article is quite worrying:
http://www.sustainableenterprises.com/fin/

Indeed, but I suspect should be taken with a good pinch of salt also.

Phrases like "Tons of filthy, rotting fibreglass insulation" are
emotive, and also make little sense (rot is not something it does in a
hurry). Calling it a "replacement for asbestos" is also a little wide of
the mark.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Tue, 02 Aug 2005 21:45:43 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

T i m wrote:

Well, I actually wear one glove so I have one hand 'free' to get some
feel and the other for getting messy ;-)

I find a box of 100 latex examination gloves from CPC are good for all
the times you want protection from "messy" while retaining some feel.

I have a couple of boxes of them (blue / beige?) and I do to use them
these days when working on things that may not be good. The trouble is
they seem to catch on everything and soon end up in shreds ;-(

Also it seems quite a few chemicals cause them to disintegrate?

When fibreglassing those thin petrol station *type) gloves seem to
work ok?

All the best ..

T i m

"John Rumm" wrote in message


this article is quite worrying:
http://www.sustainableenterprises.com/fin/

Indeed, but I suspect should be taken with a good pinch of salt also.

It is also a great way to spend money getting things tested. I doubt the
trigger-happy USA would still have glass fibre installers if there was a
reasonable chance for someone there to sue them.*

Then I got a pop up in Firefox from the visit : (

Time to kill this troll folks.

*They still have a thriving tobacco industry though.


--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

On Tue, 02 Aug 2005 21:09:34 GMT, T i m wrote:

On Tue, 02 Aug 2005 21:45:43 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

T i m wrote:

Well, I actually wear one glove so I have one hand 'free' to get some
feel and the other for getting messy ;-)

I find a box of 100 latex examination gloves from CPC are good for all
the times you want protection from "messy" while retaining some feel.

I have a couple of boxes of them (blue / beige?) and I do to use them
these days when working on things that may not be good. The trouble is
they seem to catch on everything and soon end up in shreds ;-(

Also it seems quite a few chemicals cause them to disintegrate?

And, to return full circle, some people are allergic to latex (and as an
ex-biologist I ought to know if natural rubber is a protein or not - I'd
guess it is).
--
On-line canal route planner: http://www.canalplan.org.uk

(Waterways World site of the month, April 2001)

On Tue, 02 Aug 2005 19:28:27 GMT, raden wrote:

In message ,
"dennis@home" writes
By now all water is homeopathic as most of the homeopathic water goes down
the drain.
You should be able to homoeopathically treat any illness with water from the
tap by now.


Now, that is a serious observation

Isn't it! Is it original? - I'd like to quote it in future and know who
to credit.
--
On-line canal route planner: http://www.canalplan.org.uk

(Waterways World site of the month, April 2001)