In article ,
(Flash Gordon) wrote:

2) Must the table saw machine be fixed to legs or fixed down to a
workbench (which I don't have) or can it be operated safely from the
floor/ground?

my router table is fixed to a piece of mdf and a batten screwed to the
underneath. I sit it on my cheapo but solid Wickes workmate and clamp
the batten in the jaws. This arrangement may be too high up for many but
I am fairly tall and like it.

I have seen contractors saws sitting on the ground by they are usually
attached to a piece of ply or some such. The main limitation with this
is comfort and ease of use. It is also hard to move quickly and easily
when crouching or kneeling down.

Peter

--
Peter Ashby
School of Life Sciences, University of Dundee, Scotland
To assume that I speak for the University of Dundee is to be deluded.
Reverse the Spam and remove to email me.

Flash Gordon wrote:

I have read just about every message in this Group about the low-cost
brand NuTool and about table saws - so I take on board the limitations
of quality and problems some have with saw alignment etc. Having said
that, I am still interested and ever the optimist that if I buy some
NuTool equipment that it will be OK for me!

Well to be fair, there is quite some variation in the quality of the
NuTool kit - some bits being better than others..... Most of it is made
in the far east then "badged" - so in many cases you find exactly the
same products turning up in a number of "brands".

My questions concern the NuTool 10" Table Saw with router/jigsaw
facility. At the outset I plan to cut shelves and battens for alcoves
and to round off the outside edges with a router.

I have a 10" NuTool table saw - but not one that can act as a router
table though. Hence I can only answer some of these questions.

Regarding general quality of cut however it is surprisingly good. The
supplied blade is a general purpose TCT affair - but has expansion slots
etc. and gives a reasonably good finish (i.e. if you feed the saw in a
nice even movement the finish is not far of a bit of shop bought "planed
all round" timber). There is no noticeable run out on the blade on my
one either. The fence is probably the weakest part of the design - being
folded from steel sheet rather than cast and machined or formed from
extrusion. You need to use a set square to make sure you have locked it
off square, and its only 3" high or so. Having said that a nice bit of
2x4 and some clamps can be pressed into service when you need something
a bit more solid!

1) What sort of router can fit and how is it fixed to the machine?

Don't know in this case - but usually with most router tables the router
is first screwed to a mounting plate, which in turn is attached to the
table.

2) Must the table saw machine be fixed to legs or fixed down to a
workbench (which I don't have) or can it be operated safely from the
floor/ground?

I don't think you will find it at all comfortable using it on the
ground. I personally find a using a decent workmate type folding bench
works very well. You can screw a small length of timber to the lugs on
the bottom of the saw which you can either "hook over" the edge of the
workmate, or for that matter clamp it in the jaws of the workmate to
stop the saw from moving.

3) What brand of router bits (other than NuTool) will fit and what
would be best for either pine or MDF?

Depends on the router more than the table. Smaller routers take bits
with a 1/4" shank. The larger ones take 1/2" but usually come with a
collet reducer to allow use of the smaller shank bits. Some of the 1/4"
routers have alternate collets that take 8mm shank bits as well
(although fewer people make tooling in this size).

The NuTool own brand bits I have seen are pants! - HSS rather than TCT
tipped. They may work ok for a while on pine. They will die rather
rapidly on abrasive materials like MDF.

Places like www.screwfix.com do some budget TCT bits that are not too bad.

Request a paper catalogue from www.axminster.co.uk - they have a huge
range of decent quality bits.

And also companies like Trend do nice (but expensive) tooling.
www.trendm.co.uk

4) The machine has a jigsaw facility which I have even less idea about
- does anyone else? I already have a Bosch jigsaw and wonder if this
would fit - and again how are these things attached?

Don't know - have a look at the NuTool web site and see if there is a
downloadable manual.

5) A final question about safety... are there any safety guards for
things like a router or jigsaw fixed to such a table?

as above.

Many thanks in advance for any advice you may be able to give. This is
my first posting!

Congratulations - and welcome to the mad house!


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 14 Aug 2003 03:13:21 -0700, (Flash Gordon)
wrote:

I have read just about every message in this Group about the low-cost
brand NuTool and about table saws - so I take on board the limitations
of quality and problems some have with saw alignment etc. Having said
that, I am still interested and ever the optimist that if I buy some
NuTool equipment that it will be OK for me!

My questions concern the NuTool 10" Table Saw with router/jigsaw
facility. At the outset I plan to cut shelves and battens for alcoves
and to round off the outside edges with a router.

1) What sort of router can fit and how is it fixed to the machine?
2) Must the table saw machine be fixed to legs or fixed down to a
workbench (which I don't have) or can it be operated safely from the
floor/ground?
3) What brand of router bits (other than NuTool) will fit and what
would be best for either pine or MDF?
4) The machine has a jigsaw facility which I have even less idea about
- does anyone else? I already have a Bosch jigsaw and wonder if this
would fit - and again how are these things attached?
5) A final question about safety... are there any safety guards for
things like a router or jigsaw fixed to such a table?

Many thanks in advance for any advice you may be able to give. This is
my first posting!

I'd be tempted to try an experiment at this point - I'd get hold of an
e-mail address for NuTool or whoever you might buy this item from, and
I'd copy the questions you just asked here, to them. My suspicion is
that you may learn more than just the answers to these questions, and
that might be worth more than you'd think just now.

Trust me, I'm still a newbie!

Take Care,
Gnube
{too thick for linux}

Flash Gordon wrote:
I have read just about every message in this Group about the
low-cost
brand NuTool and about table saws - so I take on board the
limitations
of quality and problems some have with saw alignment etc. Having
said
that, I am still interested and ever the optimist that if I buy some
NuTool equipment that it will be OK for me!

My questions concern the NuTool 10" Table Saw with router/jigsaw
facility. At the outset I plan to cut shelves and battens for
alcoves
and to round off the outside edges with a router.

1) What sort of router can fit and how is it fixed to the machine?
2) Must the table saw machine be fixed to legs or fixed down to a
workbench (which I don't have) or can it be operated safely from the
floor/ground?
3) What brand of router bits (other than NuTool) will fit and what
would be best for either pine or MDF?
4) The machine has a jigsaw facility which I have even less idea
about
- does anyone else? I already have a Bosch jigsaw and wonder if this
would fit - and again how are these things attached?
5) A final question about safety... are there any safety guards for
things like a router or jigsaw fixed to such a table?

Many thanks in advance for any advice you may be able to give. This
is
my first posting!

Flash Gordon

I have the sip 10 inch saw table which also has router and jigsaw
spaces. I have set up a jigsaw in mine (an old black and decker) I
used various screws and washers to fix it in the table. I do not find
it much practical use. The saw bench comes with legs although I have
also used it on a low bench. It is dangerous to use the saw bench
unfixed with any decent sized bits of wood. The router mount facility
would sort most smaller routers, all types require the use of a stand
or similar to get clearance below the table for the router . The saw
bench only has a fence, there is no safety guarding for a router. A
dedicated router table would be far better.

The sip 10 inch saw with legs at costco is less than a hundred pounds
at present, excellent value, although personally I would ignore the
extra mountings and just use it as a large table saw bench. I have
not seen the nutool version, but it sounds very like my sip.

MrCheerful

John Rumm wrote in message ...
Well to be fair, there is quite some variation in the quality of the
NuTool kit - some bits being better than others..... Most of it is made
in the far east then "badged" - so in many cases you find exactly the
same products turning up in a number of "brands".

I did wonder though one gets the impression they are only branded at
the very cheap end.

Regarding general quality of cut however it is surprisingly good. The
supplied blade is a general purpose TCT affair - but has expansion slots
etc. and gives a reasonably good finish (i.e. if you feed the saw in a
nice even movement the finish is not far of a bit of shop bought "planed
all round" timber). There is no noticeable run out on the blade on my
one either. The fence is probably the weakest part of the design - being
folded from steel sheet rather than cast and machined or formed from
extrusion. You need to use a set square to make sure you have locked it
off square, and its only 3" high or so. Having said that a nice bit of
2x4 and some clamps can be pressed into service when you need something
a bit more solid!

Again - a very useful and practical reply. It is good to know that
this kit can be worked with and for some is OK. For the low cost, I
don't mind having to do work arounds with angles and measures.

Don't know in this case - but usually with most router tables the router
is first screwed to a mounting plate, which in turn is attached to the
table.

I've seen pics of routers and their bits and pieces on Ebay but none
seem to have much that looks like a mounting plate. I've only been to
a couple of local chain store DIY stores who do not have boxes on
their shelves for me to examine so I'll have to look a bit further
afield. Internet searches have provided precious little on my
questions.

Places like www.screwfix.com do some budget TCT bits that are not too bad.

Request a paper catalogue from www.axminster.co.uk - they have a huge
range of decent quality bits.

And also companies like Trend do nice (but expensive) tooling.
www.trendm.co.uk

Thank you again for these links which I'll follow up. Very useful -
though I had seen Screwfix.com, I hadn't checked out axminster.co.uk

Don't know - have a look at the NuTool web site and see if there is a
downloadable manual.

Their website has good intentions but otherwise doesn't work! And I've
sat on the phone to them but not got further than holding for an
operator as my call was valuable.... etc!

I was surprised to see that Tesco.com has Nutools for sale on their
website but alas they have no further info either.

Many thanks in advance for any advice you may be able to give. This is
my first posting!

Congratulations - and welcome to the mad house!

:-)

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

Flash Gordon!

Gnube wrote in message . ..
I'd be tempted to try an experiment at this point - I'd get hold of an
e-mail address for NuTool or whoever you might buy this item from, and
I'd copy the questions you just asked here, to them. My suspicion is
that you may learn more than just the answers to these questions, and
that might be worth more than you'd think just now.

Doh! I'll do that and will report back. I posed some of the questions
to a NuTool supplier who has not replied to date.

Trust me, I'm still a newbie!
At what point does one go from a newbie to a non-newbie? :-)

Gnube
{too thick for linux}
wry grin

Flash Gordon!

Flash Gordon wrote:

I did wonder though one gets the impression they are only branded at
the very cheap end.

No you get badge engineering going on at all levels! If you look at the
NuTool 1/2" router for example it shows up in lots of places as far as I
can tell for about the same sort of money (about 100 quid in this case).
The Axminster "white" own brand looks to be another version of the same
router for example.

Again - a very useful and practical reply. It is good to know that
this kit can be worked with and for some is OK. For the low cost, I
don't mind having to do work arounds with angles and measures.

You can get good enough results with it - but it may not be as quick to
work with as some of the more professional tools. This would be more of
an issue in a production environment that at home however.

I've seen pics of routers and their bits and pieces on Ebay but none
seem to have much that looks like a mounting plate. I've only been to

The plates never come with the routers as far as I aware - they are
normally either sold with tables or something you buy separately.

See http://www.trendmachinery.co.uk/crt/

For one example of mounting plates etc. You can also get generic plates
for mounting in a table of your own construction. Failing that you could
make your own out of a bit of ply or MDF or even thick acrylic sheet.

a couple of local chain store DIY stores who do not have boxes on
their shelves for me to examine so I'll have to look a bit further
afield. Internet searches have provided precious little on my
questions.

The B&Q superstore places do carry some of the more serious Trend kit
including router tables and mounting plates etc.

Thank you again for these links which I'll follow up. Very useful -
though I had seen Screwfix.com, I hadn't checked out axminster.co.uk

It's worth getting the (free) paper catalogue from them - their web site
is good if you know exactly what you are looking for - but it's hopeless
for browsing.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Hello Mr Cheerful!

I had seen your posts elsewhere on the subject of NuTool and table
saws and considered writing to you privately before I posted this
message... so thanks for replying!

"MrCheerful" wrote in message ...
The router mount facility
would sort most smaller routers, all types require the use of a stand
or similar to get clearance below the table for the router .

Ahh.... major detail here. I hadn't thought of the clearance needed
BELOW the table for the router.

Thank you for your various safety warnings.

I have
not seen the nutool version, but it sounds very like my sip.

Here is a pic of a Nutool 10" table saw but this item is advertising
just the legs attachment:
http://www.tesco.com/electrical/Brow...typeid=7796577

I'm still unsure whether a table mounted router or a hand held would
be better? I've heard they can be a bit of a beast to hand-hold... a
friend of mine - who is a strapping big woman with more strength than
the average bloke - has warned they pretty much have a life of their
own. And what with me not having experience, this is why I was looking
at an attachable table mounted router. And within all that, cost is a
bit of an issue.

It is the fault of programs like "New Yankee Workshop" on Home &
Leisure that show such beautiful woodwork and equipment like a
hand-held router made to look like spreading butter on bread!!!

Flash Gordon!

Gnube wrote in message . ..
Ah, now that's one of the extra lessons I had in mind. I see it this
way; if they don't want to help before I buy and they don't yet have
the cash, then what chance after they got the money and I got a
problem? I'm not sure that arrangement would suit me too well.

I sent NuTool an email after 7pm last night and just received an
acknowledgement email this morning sent at 8.31am - which is quite
encouraging at this stage!

I know what you mean about the support not being available, but on the
other hand if they are ditributing kit at such low-cost for the masses
then I'm prepared to accept that support may not be too forthcoming.
However, there is little excuse for basic information to not be
available - especially when safety is crucial and in my internet
research have come across quite a few stories involving bits of
fingers!

Flash Gordon!

The nutool does look exactly like the sip !

Holding a router is not usually a problem, holding the material still
can be.

A router table is a nice thing to have, but with a good saw you can
build a router table!

I suggest you buy a saw table like this and a cheap router, you will
probably be able to attach the router with no need of any expensive
extras, most router bases have a selection of holes to mount them
with, a few screws may be needed to suit the holes. You will have to
modify the fence on the saw table by adding a bit of wood with a gap
in the middle so that the router bit will stick up and have a guide
either side.
Yes, I think Normliness is next to godliness.

MrCheerful

On 15 Aug 2003 00:46:39 -0700, (Flash Gordon)
wrote:

However, there is little excuse for basic information to not be
available - especially when safety is crucial and in my internet
research have come across quite a few stories involving bits of
fingers!

And that's why I felt it was important enough to change my buying
decisions. Oddly Ferm do reply to e-mails - if they had a seriously up
market approach they could conquer the entire market, but they don't;
so for now they don't overcharge and they do reply to e-mail. It's not
a perfect world, but some bits of it work after a fashion, which is a
fair start!

Take Care,
Gnube
{too thick for linux}

Flash Gordon wrote:

Ahh.... major detail here. I hadn't thought of the clearance needed
BELOW the table for the router.

Not so much of an issue with the smaller 1/4" routers - but the bigger
1/2" beasties are likely to be too long to fit under unless the table is
on a narrow set of legs or a workmate....

I'm still unsure whether a table mounted router or a hand held would
be better? I've heard they can be a bit of a beast to hand-hold... a

Hmmm - depends on what you are trying to do with it. The 1/4" routers
are very easy to hand hold for many tasks and you can get good results
that way. The 1/2" units tend to be bigger and heavier so are more of a
handfull if you are having to support the weight of the unit when
routing an edge or something like that.

friend of mine - who is a strapping big woman with more strength than
the average bloke - has warned they pretty much have a life of their
own. And what with me not having experience, this is why I was looking

Makes me wonder if she is using it right! If you start doing things like
trying to cut in the wrong direction, or plunging into the middle of a
bit of wood and then routing freehand it gets much harder to control.
But putting profiles on edges with bearing guided cutters etc should be
pretty straight forward.

at an attachable table mounted router. And within all that, cost is a
bit of an issue.

Table mounting is handy for some types of work, and an absolute
necessity when using the larger diameter cutters (like panel raising
bits etc)

Much of the skill in routing is working out how to guide and anchour the
router in the places you want it. Either with tables, fences, trammels
etc, but also with home made jigs.

You might find it worthwhile getting a good book on router technique and
jigs etc. The book I have found very good - especially for jigs and info
on making router tables etc is:-

Woodworking with the Router: Professional Router Techniques and Jigs Any
Woodworker Can Use

by Bill Hylton, Fred Matlock

See Amazon he-

http://makeashorterlink.com/?Z1A821EE3

It is the fault of programs like "New Yankee Workshop" on Home &
Leisure that show such beautiful woodwork and equipment like a
hand-held router made to look like spreading butter on bread!!!

Well in some cases it should be much the same only less greasy!

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In article ,
John Rumm wrote:

It is the fault of programs like "New Yankee Workshop" on Home &
Leisure that show such beautiful woodwork and equipment like a
hand-held router made to look like spreading butter on bread!!!

Well in some cases it should be much the same only less greasy!

And you don't need to take a piece of sandpaper or a scraper to your
bread and butter after application either ;-)

Peter

--
Peter Ashby
School of Life Sciences, University of Dundee, Scotland
To assume that I speak for the University of Dundee is to be deluded.
Reverse the Spam and remove to email me.

Hello John

Thanks for your great advice and...

John Rumm wrote in message ...
You might find it worthwhile getting a good book on router technique and
jigs etc. The book I have found very good - especially for jigs and info
on making router tables etc is:-

Woodworking with the Router: Professional Router Techniques and Jigs Any
Woodworker Can Use

by Bill Hylton, Fred Matlock

See Amazon he-

http://makeashorterlink.com/?Z1A821EE3

.... excellent looking book with some great reviews. I'll get a copy as
it sounds like exactly the sort of thing a novice like I would need.

Many thanks

Flash Gordon!