Dear all,
The time has finally come where I've got to get off my a*se and sort the
garden out.
The first bit of work is to build a low 12.5 metre long retaining/decorative
wall for some soil (weed) banking that we've got. It's a new build
garden/swamp and nothing else has been done to it apart from turfing the
flat bits and putting in extra drainage courtesy of the NHBC.
I've googled a bit already but would appreciate any links for hints and tips
for mortar/concrete mixes, foundations (if necessary) and other such bits
like recommended stone. I'm a real novice at this construction side of
things and would appreciate any help and, as mentioned, links to handy
sites. Hopefully this doesn't sound like I'm being too lazy but sagely
advice from the group would be most appreciated. We have had some
landscapers in to do some work in the past but the cost is a bit prohibitive
at the moment so I'll just have to bite the bullet and do it myself.

Cheers,
Keith

Most builders in England will not think much beyond a 3:1 sand cement
mix. But this is far too strong for your needs and cement is a serious
consumer of energy and producer of CO2. The mortar's strength and
brittlness will mean that it may crack if there is any settlement. To
avoid this you may be advised to lay foundations.

An alternative approach is to use a lime based mortar which is weaker
and less brittle. Foundations will not be needed, lime requires less
energy to produce and reabsorbs from the air the CO2 given off during
production as it sets. A 3:1 mix of sand and lime is fine but you
could incorporate up to 20% earth in the mix. Dig a hole and use earth
from a foot down rather than the topsoil. The resulting mortar will be
just as strong and cheaper.

When you buy bagged hydrated lime from a builders' merchant empty the
bag into a dustbin full of water. Then use the resulting 'putty' to
mix with your aggregate. It will keep forever under water but lime in
a bag gradually absorbs CO2 from the air and so is not as good if not
used fresh.

Don't worry if it looks as though the mortar is not going hard. It
takes weeks and weeks but gradually gets harder and stronger as the
lime reacts with the air.

"KD" wrote in message
...
Dear all,
The time has finally come where I've got to get off my a*se and sort the
garden out.
The first bit of work is to build a low 12.5 metre long
retaining/decorative
wall for some soil (weed) banking that we've got. It's a new build
garden/swamp and nothing else has been done to it apart from turfing the
flat bits and putting in extra drainage courtesy of the NHBC.
I've googled a bit already but would appreciate any links for hints and
tips
for mortar/concrete mixes, foundations (if necessary) and other such bits
like recommended stone. I'm a real novice at this construction side of
things and would appreciate any help and, as mentioned, links to handy
sites. Hopefully this doesn't sound like I'm being too lazy but sagely
advice from the group would be most appreciated. We have had some
landscapers in to do some work in the past but the cost is a bit
prohibitive
at the moment so I'll just have to bite the bullet and do it myself.

Cheers,
Keith



Commenting on the previous post, I ought to add that there was a thread on
lime mortar a week or two back, so find it if you want to go that way. I've
never heard of using earth in the mix but I can't claim to be an expert.
Remember
lime putty ( hydated non-hydraulic lime + water ) needs to soak for, well,
according
to some, weeks as then when mixed with sand it will behave in a 'fatty' way
( which
means handles well on a trowel and when you position/adjust stones on it ).

Lime mortar looks nicer ( white ) than cement IMO, but you can get white
cement
if you wish, I will assume you use cement.

The sand you use also is important. Silver sand gives a light coloured
mortar.
Sharp sand gives a strong mortar but needs plasticiser added to facilitate
good
handling. Soft sand gives a weaker mortar but handles well even without
plasticiser
apparently. Soft sand may be a yellowish colour.

A mix of 1:4 cement/sand by volume works with stone. It's not critical to be
honest.
You could use a weaker mix. Getting the aount of water in the mix is
important: too
much and it will be sloppy, too little and it will be stiff and
unadjustable.

Get a bricklayer's trowel ( quite big ) so that you can get a decent amount
of mortar
on it. Stone walls are usually 'battered' slightly ( they are thinner at the
top than at
the bottom ). With proper stone walls you will have two skins of stones, on
either
side, with a central mortar and rubble infill, and occasional larger stones
that span
the width of the wall to hold the two skins together.

If your wall is small and thin you will have to use one skin of stones only.
Make sure a
single-brick thickness wall ( 4"-5" ) doesn't exceed three feet in height
without piers.

You will need to figure out what stone to use. Random quarried stone is too
difficult
to work with, you need stone with at least one 'fair' face and probably
more.
Quarries sell walling stone direct sometimes, it will have been selected for
fair faces.
The style is up to you, but it takes a fair amount of skill and messing
about to get
close fits between the stones. One cop-out is to fit the main stones as best
you can
then fill in any gaps where a lot of mortar is showng by pressing in small
pieces of stone.

Don't get too perfectionist about filling every single gap between stones
with cement:
you can fill in a bit when you've finished each course.

Probably easier to work with is quarried slate, as this naturally forms flat
and easy-to
-stack pieces. You might need a grinder to square up the ends of some piece.
Use a
level/long straightedge and your eyeballs as you go along: stone walls are
less critical
than brick in terms of accuracy.

I'd use some form of foundation on a slender wall, but a thick, low,
battered wall is
unlikely to be going anywhere and you might get away with just a splash of
cement
at the base. Leave the mortar to stiffen up a bit before attempting to tidy
up the mortar
joints, a couple of hours is OK, use a wire brush perhaps.

I am not an expert!

Andy.

It may be surprising to many people in Britain but most houses in the
world are built with earth rather than cement. Unfortunately our
climate means that some weather protection is usually needed for earth
buildings so cob houses are traditionally rendered with a layer of lime
plaster. Many have survived thus for centuries. Adding some lime to
the earth makes the material much stronger and more weather proof.

But back to the earth in the garden wall. Mortar consists of aggregate
and a cementing material to stick the aggregate particles together -
usually lime or Portland cement. Ideally there should be just enough
cement to fill the gaps between the aggregate particles without pushing
them apart. This means, roughly, a 3:1 ratio of sand and cement. If
the aggregate consists of a range of grain sizes the small bit
partially fill the gaps between the large bits so less cement is
needed. There is also a larger surface area for the cement to stick
to. If the grains tend to be angular in shape they pack together
tigtly without slipping past each other. Such is the case with 'sharp'
sand. This gives a strong mortar. If a mixture of sharp sand, silt
and clay is used, with up to about 25% clay, it can be so strong that
the cement may not be needed. This is what earth buildings are made
of. For a practical garden wall mortar in rainy England the addition
of, say, 10% lime, will to a sharp sand and earth mix will prove
satisfactory and cheap.

The advantage of 'soft' sand is more for the bricklayer than the wall.
Small, even sized and rounded sand grains will not produce such a
strong mortar but it will be more 'workable' as the sand grains can
slide over each other easily while the mortar is wet. This allows the
brickie to lay zillions of bricks per hour and there will be plenty of
strength if he is using Ordinary Portland cement instead of lime. But
for the DIY garden wall where speed of build is not critical but cost
of materials, appearance, resistance to cracking without resorting to
massive foundations, health of the environment and a generally pleasant
and interesting experience are the issues, a sharp sand, earth, lime
mortar will be excellent.

wrote:
It may be surprising to many people in Britain but most houses in the
world are built with earth rather than cement. Unfortunately our
climate means that some weather protection is usually needed for earth
buildings so cob houses are traditionally rendered with a layer of lime
plaster. Many have survived thus for centuries. Adding some lime to
the earth makes the material much stronger and more weather proof.

But back to the earth in the garden wall. Mortar consists of aggregate
and a cementing material to stick the aggregate particles together -
usually lime or Portland cement. Ideally there should be just enough
cement to fill the gaps between the aggregate particles without pushing
them apart. This means, roughly, a 3:1 ratio of sand and cement. If
the aggregate consists of a range of grain sizes the small bit
partially fill the gaps between the large bits so less cement is
needed. There is also a larger surface area for the cement to stick
to. If the grains tend to be angular in shape they pack together
tigtly without slipping past each other. Such is the case with 'sharp'
sand. This gives a strong mortar. If a mixture of sharp sand, silt
and clay is used, with up to about 25% clay, it can be so strong that
the cement may not be needed. This is what earth buildings are made
of. For a practical garden wall mortar in rainy England the addition
of, say, 10% lime, will to a sharp sand and earth mix will prove
satisfactory and cheap.

The advantage of 'soft' sand is more for the bricklayer than the wall.
Small, even sized and rounded sand grains will not produce such a
strong mortar but it will be more 'workable' as the sand grains can
slide over each other easily while the mortar is wet. This allows the
brickie to lay zillions of bricks per hour and there will be plenty of
strength if he is using Ordinary Portland cement instead of lime. But
for the DIY garden wall where speed of build is not critical but cost
of materials, appearance, resistance to cracking without resorting to
massive foundations, health of the environment and a generally pleasant
and interesting experience are the issues, a sharp sand, earth, lime
mortar will be excellent.

as the sand grains can
slide over each other easily while the mortar is wet!!!!
For heavens sake the man wants to build a wall, not take an exam on mud
in mortar, well meaning advice but sorry, way off the mark.
Firstly, if you are a novice DO NOT attempt to build this wall, its far
too much to attempt if you don't know what you are doing. Ask around
the local establishment if there are any brickys willing to do cash
work, you can do the mixing and loading out whilst the professional
does the craft. It won't cost that much and will save you much head
scratching and banging of head on not very good garden wall.
If you are intent, here is my 10 pence worth,
DO put a footing in, 1 ft wide, try and get down to solid base, make
concrete 150mm thick, if theres quiet a bit of weight to hold back, put
a few pillars in the wall, 1 every 6 ft should do, these can face the
rear and be covered by the soil, weed etc.
If using brickwork mix at 4 sand, 1 cement. If using sand stone or
similar, mix at 6 sand 1 lime 1 cement, although i have walled stone in
normal mortar many times.
My best advice is get a bricky, why listen to me? House basher
(bricklayer) for 17 years, site manager for 5 years, building
contractor for 2 years.
Hope all goes well.

wrote:

An alternative approach is to use a lime based mortar which is weaker
and less brittle. Foundations will not be needed, lime requires less
energy to produce and reabsorbs from the air the CO2 given off during
production as it sets.


I wish you'd stop spouting crap about lime mortar.

You like it, that's fine. But you can't sell it on the green angle. Both
production processes (for producing cement and lime) use a lot of
energy. They also both liberate some co2 from the material being
processed. When lime sets, it reabsorbs much of the liberated co2.

However, the amount of co2 produced while making the energy required for
the process is far greater than the amounts released/reabsorbed by the
material. So the difference in net co2 release between cement and lime
production is quite small.

Add to that the fact that you need a lot more lime for the same project,
with all the associated transport + storage (energy) costs, and the
higher maintenance of lime based construction, and your environmental
argument vanishes.


--
Grunff

The kilning temperature used to turn limestone, calcium carbonate, to
quicklime, calcium oxide, is lower than that used in making Ordinary
Portland cement. Thus less energy is required and consequent CO2
emission is lower. The CO2 driven off in the limestone to quicklime
reaction is reabsorbed as the lime mortar sets. OPC reabsorbs much
less CO2. Dry hydrated lime weighs slightly less than an equivalent
volume of OPC so should involve marginally lower transport (energy)
costs. Wet lime putty is heavier so that advantage is lost but for a
garden wall the extra quality of lime putty hardly justifies its extra
cost. Dry bagged lime will do. My suggestion of using a sand / earth
/ lime mix allows the use of much less lime so the overall cost in
cash, energy, CO2 emission and general damage to the environment is
reduced.

But hey, let's not get too exited. The planet is not going to be won
or lost over a modest garden wall. Remember my first suggestion was a
3:1 sand cement mortar. The rest was just in case someone, perhaps KD,
was interested in thinking a little further.

"KD" wrote in message
...
Dear all,
The time has finally come where I've got to get off my a*se and sort the
garden out.
The first bit of work is to build a low 12.5 metre long
retaining/decorative wall for some soil (weed) banking that we've got.
It's a new build garden/swamp and nothing else has been done to it apart
from turfing the flat bits and putting in extra drainage courtesy of the
NHBC.
I've googled a bit already but would appreciate any links for hints and
tips for mortar/concrete mixes, foundations (if necessary) and other such
bits like recommended stone. I'm a real novice at this construction side
of things and would appreciate any help and, as mentioned, links to handy
sites. Hopefully this doesn't sound like I'm being too lazy but sagely
advice from the group would be most appreciated. We have had some
landscapers in to do some work in the past but the cost is a bit
prohibitive at the moment so I'll just have to bite the bullet and do it
myself.

Cheers,
Keith


Thanks for all the advice so far.

Keith

wrote in message
oups.com...
It may be surprising to many people in Britain but most houses in the
world are built with earth rather than cement. Unfortunately our
climate means that some weather protection is usually needed for earth
buildings so cob houses are traditionally rendered with a layer of lime
plaster. Many have survived thus for centuries. Adding some lime to
the earth makes the material much stronger and more weather proof.

But back to the earth in the garden wall. Mortar consists of aggregate
and a cementing material to stick the aggregate particles together -
usually lime or Portland cement. Ideally there should be just enough
cement to fill the gaps between the aggregate particles without pushing
them apart. This means, roughly, a 3:1 ratio of sand and cement. If
the aggregate consists of a range of grain sizes the small bit
partially fill the gaps between the large bits so less cement is
needed. There is also a larger surface area for the cement to stick
to. If the grains tend to be angular in shape they pack together
tigtly without slipping past each other. Such is the case with 'sharp'
sand. This gives a strong mortar. If a mixture of sharp sand, silt
and clay is used, with up to about 25% clay, it can be so strong that
the cement may not be needed. This is what earth buildings are made
of. For a practical garden wall mortar in rainy England the addition
of, say, 10% lime, will to a sharp sand and earth mix will prove
satisfactory and cheap.

Yes, we still have a few 'cob' walls down here in Devon, and they are
essentially mud and whatnot, but I reckon as far as novices go, it
might be best to stick to something well-known.

As far as the original poster getting in a brickie, well, that's for him to
judge.
I built a very passable stone wall a while back, and I had never built
anything
like that before. I did a bit of research on mortars and walls and just had
a go.
Being my first attempt I was painfully slow and did everything the hard way.
Nevertheless, I got my wall in the end, and I've got a bit of experience
now.

Bricklaying/stonework is not easy, it takes a lot of skill to be productive,
but
if you are prepared to put the effort in then and haven't got ten thumbs
then
you're in with a chance!

Andy.

"andrewpreece" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
oups.com...
It may be surprising to many people in Britain but most houses in the
world are built with earth rather than cement. Unfortunately our
climate means that some weather protection is usually needed for earth
buildings so cob houses are traditionally rendered with a layer of lime
plaster. Many have survived thus for centuries. Adding some lime to
the earth makes the material much stronger and more weather proof.

But back to the earth in the garden wall. Mortar consists of aggregate
and a cementing material to stick the aggregate particles together -
usually lime or Portland cement. Ideally there should be just enough
cement to fill the gaps between the aggregate particles without pushing
them apart. This means, roughly, a 3:1 ratio of sand and cement. If
the aggregate consists of a range of grain sizes the small bit
partially fill the gaps between the large bits so less cement is
needed. There is also a larger surface area for the cement to stick
to. If the grains tend to be angular in shape they pack together
tigtly without slipping past each other. Such is the case with 'sharp'
sand. This gives a strong mortar. If a mixture of sharp sand, silt
and clay is used, with up to about 25% clay, it can be so strong that
the cement may not be needed. This is what earth buildings are made
of. For a practical garden wall mortar in rainy England the addition
of, say, 10% lime, will to a sharp sand and earth mix will prove
satisfactory and cheap.

Yes, we still have a few 'cob' walls down here in Devon, and they are
essentially mud and whatnot, but I reckon as far as novices go, it
might be best to stick to something well-known.

As far as the original poster getting in a brickie, well, that's for him
to
judge.
I built a very passable stone wall a while back, and I had never built
anything
like that before. I did a bit of research on mortars and walls and just
had
a go.
Being my first attempt I was painfully slow and did everything the hard
way.
Nevertheless, I got my wall in the end, and I've got a bit of experience
now.

Bricklaying/stonework is not easy, it takes a lot of skill to be
productive,
but
if you are prepared to put the effort in then and haven't got ten thumbs
then
you're in with a chance!

Andy.


Cheers Andy,
I am not aiming high - about two feet in fact ;-) and thankfully I don't
have to do this all at once. I can mix batches in small amounts and build
slowly. I'll probably be bringing the rocks back to the house in numbers of
10 or less (small car) so it's the only way to go. We've basically got a
slope in the middle of the back garden and I want to retain the earth behind
a small wall as I work on planting out other tress and shrubs, hence I can
build a piece of wall and move along - I hope :O)

Thanks,
Keith

"KD" wrote in message
...

"andrewpreece" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
oups.com...
It may be surprising to many people in Britain but most houses in the
world are built with earth rather than cement. Unfortunately our
climate means that some weather protection is usually needed for earth
buildings so cob houses are traditionally rendered with a layer of lime
plaster. Many have survived thus for centuries. Adding some lime to
the earth makes the material much stronger and more weather proof.

But back to the earth in the garden wall. Mortar consists of aggregate
and a cementing material to stick the aggregate particles together -
usually lime or Portland cement. Ideally there should be just enough
cement to fill the gaps between the aggregate particles without pushing
them apart. This means, roughly, a 3:1 ratio of sand and cement. If
the aggregate consists of a range of grain sizes the small bit
partially fill the gaps between the large bits so less cement is
needed. There is also a larger surface area for the cement to stick
to. If the grains tend to be angular in shape they pack together
tigtly without slipping past each other. Such is the case with 'sharp'
sand. This gives a strong mortar. If a mixture of sharp sand, silt
and clay is used, with up to about 25% clay, it can be so strong that
the cement may not be needed. This is what earth buildings are made
of. For a practical garden wall mortar in rainy England the addition
of, say, 10% lime, will to a sharp sand and earth mix will prove
satisfactory and cheap.

Yes, we still have a few 'cob' walls down here in Devon, and they are
essentially mud and whatnot, but I reckon as far as novices go, it
might be best to stick to something well-known.

As far as the original poster getting in a brickie, well, that's for him
to
judge.
I built a very passable stone wall a while back, and I had never built
anything
like that before. I did a bit of research on mortars and walls and just
had
a go.
Being my first attempt I was painfully slow and did everything the hard
way.
Nevertheless, I got my wall in the end, and I've got a bit of experience
now.

Bricklaying/stonework is not easy, it takes a lot of skill to be
productive,
but
if you are prepared to put the effort in then and haven't got ten thumbs
then
you're in with a chance!

Andy.


Cheers Andy,
I am not aiming high - about two feet in fact ;-) and thankfully I don't
have to do this all at once. I can mix batches in small amounts and build
slowly. I'll probably be bringing the rocks back to the house in numbers
of
10 or less (small car) so it's the only way to go. We've basically got a
slope in the middle of the back garden and I want to retain the earth
behind
a small wall as I work on planting out other tress and shrubs, hence I can
build a piece of wall and move along - I hope :O)

Thanks,
Keith

Sound exactly like one of the walls I built, a 22" high and 10 foot long
retaining
wall ( because the garden is on a slope ). I made mine in the shape of an
arc centred
on a nearby Magnolia tree. Because of that and its thickness, and the fact
it was 'battered'
I didn't use a substantial foundation, just a bit of mortar under the lowest
course of stones.

As it was a retaining wall I made it single-faced: the side that faced the
earth
was roughly finished with plenty of mortar, and just had the actual
stonework
giving a nice finish on the visible side. That makes it a lot easier, less
than
half the work of making a double-faced stone wall.

I topped the wall with a single course of bricks laid on edge just to give a
level finish,
and also because I'd run out of stone! Small tip, if your stones are quite
irregular,
lay out a course, or even two courses of stones with no mortar, as a 'dry
run', that
way you can fit them together more neatly. Takes a bit of time and
rearrangement though,
and is not as quick as the
use-lots-of-mortar-to-fill-the-gaps-and-stick-little-bits-of-
stone-in-them-to-make-it-look-better technique!

Andy.

In message om, Bod
writes
Firstly, if you are a novice DO NOT attempt to build this wall, its far
too much to attempt if you don't know what you are doing.

Rather a non DIY answer, and the sort that ****es me off

If you're a novice, how else are you going to gain any experience ?

You come here, and ask, get advice and then you have some pointers as to
how to proceed.

I've built several walls, I just got on and built them using a bit of
common sense.

It's the same with plastering, concreting, etc ...

It might not be quite as good as a professional who is doing things on a
day to day basis but then you can look at it and say "I did that"


--
geoff

In message , KD
writes
Cheers Andy,
I am not aiming high - about two feet in fact ;-) and thankfully I don't
have to do this all at once. I can mix batches in small amounts and build
slowly. I'll probably be bringing the rocks back to the house in numbers of
10 or less (small car) so it's the only way to go. We've basically got a
slope in the middle of the back garden and I want to retain the earth behind
a small wall as I work on planting out other tress and shrubs, hence I can
build a piece of wall and move along - I hope :O)

Just go for it

Practice a bit first to get a feel

You can always pull bits down if hey go wrong, and do them again

--
geoff

On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 16:28:45 GMT, raden babbled
like a waterfall and said:

In message om, Bod
writes
Firstly, if you are a novice DO NOT attempt to build this wall, its far
too much to attempt if you don't know what you are doing.

Rather a non DIY answer, and the sort that ****es me off

If you're a novice, how else are you going to gain any experience ?

You come here, and ask, get advice and then you have some pointers as to
how to proceed.

I've built several walls, I just got on and built them using a bit of
common sense.

It's the same with plastering, concreting, etc ...

It might not be quite as good as a professional who is doing things on a
day to day basis but then you can look at it and say "I did that"

Well said!

As I will be doing with my wall next week after your last pep talk to
me!

"KD" wrote in message
...
Dear all,
The time has finally come where I've got to get off my a*se and sort the
garden out.
The first bit of work is to build a low 12.5 metre long
retaining/decorative wall for some soil (weed) banking that we've got.
It's a new build garden/swamp and nothing else has been done to it apart
from turfing the flat bits and putting in extra drainage courtesy of the
NHBC.
I've googled a bit already but would appreciate any links for hints and
tips for mortar/concrete mixes, foundations (if necessary) and other such
bits like recommended stone. I'm a real novice at this construction side
of things and would appreciate any help and, as mentioned, links to handy
sites. Hopefully this doesn't sound like I'm being too lazy but sagely
advice from the group would be most appreciated. We have had some
landscapers in to do some work in the past but the cost is a bit
prohibitive at the moment so I'll just have to bite the bullet and do it
myself.

Cheers,
Keith


Hi all,
Thanks for all the advice - I'm likely to bottle the masonry option and
go for the 'woodblocx' approach which I spotted at B&Q this afternoon while
looking for cement and edging. Seems quite attractive and does exactly what
I need. If you want to see what I mean then simply go to the .co.uk website
(I didn't put the link so people wouldn't think I was spamming or anything).
Hopefully after a good 'treatment' the wood will last a while. I'll let you
know how I get on if anybody's interested :O)

Thanks once again,
Keith