Hi,

I live in a rented flat with storage heaters and a hot water boiler
powered by off peak electricity (Powergen said its the Economy 10
tariff).

My boiler has two immersion heaters with separate switches in the
cupboard. They wern't marked so by trial and error I discovered that
one works all the time and the other one only goes on at night when
permanently switched "on".

So far so good....

Two days ago I woke up with no hot water, and after some
experimentation I find that the storage heaters now also do not heat up
(They've been off recently since its good weather..)

I can still heat up my hot water boiler using the other "always works"
switch but only manually.

My questions a

1. How could only the night time cheap electricity stop working.
2. How can my supplier (Powergen) fix it.
3. If I use electrical appliances during the night time when it ought
to be cheap electriicty will it still be cheap? e.g. if I turn on the
water bolier "manually" at 2am in the morning??


I have inspected my meter (which is very confusing) which seems to have
3 rates, numbered 1-3, which when I phoned Powergen they told me 1 was
night, 2 was day and 3 was "stored heat" (didn't really understand that
bit). The meter still seems to change from day to night i.e. during day
the rate 2 and 3 readings are flashed alternately and marked "current"
and in the middle of the night rates 1 and 3 are marked "current".

Sorry if this is a bit vague - I'm not really familiar with any of this
stuff.


Any explanations or advice will be appreciated.

wrote:
I live in a rented flat with storage heaters and a hot water boiler
powered by off peak electricity (Powergen said its the Economy 10
tariff).
My boiler has two immersion heaters with separate switches in the
cupboard. They wern't marked so by trial and error I discovered that
one works all the time

Usually the top one, for topping up during the day. It will be expensive
if you leave this running all the time.

and the other one only goes on at night when
permanently switched "on".

Leave that one on.

So far so good....
Two days ago I woke up with no hot water, and after some
experimentation I find that the storage heaters now also do not heat up
(They've been off recently since its good weather..)
I can still heat up my hot water boiler using the other "always works"
switch but only manually.
My questions a
1. How could only the night time cheap electricity stop working.

You have probably got two consumer units - one for the night-only
circuits. That will be connected to the meter through a contactor
(relay), timeswitch or teleswitch. Maybe the timeswitch has stopped.

2. How can my supplier (Powergen) fix it.

By correcting the fault.

3. If I use electrical appliances during the night time when it ought
to be cheap electriicty will it still be cheap? e.g. if I turn on the
water bolier "manually" at 2am in the morning??

Most modern economy tariffs apply to all electricty taken during the
cheap period. Check that with Powergen. If it is the case, it might be
worthwhile putting your washing machine on a timer, if you don't mind it
running during the night. (Some washers have a delayed start button to
do this.)

The good news for you is you live in a rented property, so it's your
landlord's responsibility.

Owain

Thanks for the hints.

From my description of the problem, does the fault sound like something
I (or the landlord) would need to get an electrician to sort out, or is
it more like something Powergen should be sorting?

I have arranged for someone from Powergen to come out and look at the
meter (although they cant come for two weeks!!) but maybe its not
actually a meter or supply problem, but something "internal" in the
flats wiring or something????

achookang wrote:
Thanks for the hints.
From my description of the problem, does the fault sound like something
I (or the landlord) would need to get an electrician to sort out, or is
it more like something Powergen should be sorting?

It depends exactly where the fault is. Have you checked your consumer
units and made sure there are no MCBs/RCDs tripped?

The meter, timeswitch/teleswitch/contactor are usually sealed and would
be Powergen's responsibility.

Have you agreed how much your landlord is going to reduce the rent
because of your increased electricity bills? :-)

If you can upload a photo of your switchgear to a website and post the
URL (photos aren't allowed in uk.* newsgroups) we might be able to
identify your set-up.

Owain

The meter, timeswitch/teleswitch/contactor are usually sealed and would
be Powergen's responsibility.

Load switching equipment is often *not* the responsibility of the
supplier - its often the customers' equipment.

--
Please add "[newsgroup]" in the subject of any personal replies via email
--- My new email address has "ngspamtrap" & @btinternet.com in it ;-) ---

OK. I'm not sure exactly what you need pix of, but if you go to
http://www.chookang.plus.com/temp you will get a directory listing of
some jpegs. Hopefully the pix therein will help. If you need pix of
other things please reply and I'll try and sort it.

Alan

achookang wrote:
OK. I'm not sure exactly what you need pix of, but if you go to
http://www.chookang.plus.com/temp you will get a directory listing of
some jpegs. Hopefully the pix therein will help. If you need pix of
other things please reply and I'll try and sort it.


Alan, When was that unvented cylinder installed and who did the job?!

Martyn

"achookang" wrote in message
ups.com...
OK. I'm not sure exactly what you need pix of, but if you go to
http://www.chookang.plus.com/temp you will get a directory listing of
some jpegs. Hopefully the pix therein will help. If you need pix of
other things please reply and I'll try and sort it.

Alan


Your main switch is marked 24h and o/p. o/p will be the off peak supply.
Your meter looks like it is sending out 2 supplies. Has your distribution
board (fuse board) got 2 main switches on it? Or have you a photo of it?

Alan, When was that unvented cylinder installed and who did the job?!

if you mean that small cylinder on the lower right from the big tank,
it was presumably installed when the flats were built along with
everything else. The flat is only 1 year old (approx.)

Tim Morley wrote:


Your main switch is marked 24h and o/p. o/p will be the off peak supply.
Your meter looks like it is sending out 2 supplies. Has your distribution
board (fuse board) got 2 main switches on it? Or have you a photo of it?

Tim,

the fuse board is one of those modern things with a bank of switch type
things that presumably get tripped if there is a surge and can be
manually switched back again.

There is one separate red bank of three switches marked "non RCD
protected": (1) off-peak immersion, (2) storage heating, (3) storage
heating. [there are 2 storage heaters in the flat]

Then there is a green bank marked "RCD protected": (1)sockets (2)
sockets, along with a master RCD switch.

Then finally another red bank "non- RCD protected": (1)lights (2)lights
(3)smoke detector (4)central heating (5)immersion (6)cooker, and a main
switch for that bank.

So, yes, there seems to be separate switches for the off peak immersion
and the regular immersion.

None of the switches had been "tripped" by the way, they were/are all
in the on position!

Alan

achookang wrote:
OK. I'm not sure exactly what you need pix of, but if you go to
http://www.chookang.plus.com/temp you will get a directory listing of
some jpegs. Hopefully the pix therein will help. If you need pix of
other things please reply and I'll try and sort it.

It appears that you have a combined meter/teleswitch which is
responsible for switching on the off-peak supply at the appropriate
time. This is why you have two phase wires (reds) out of the meter into
your main switch.

I am *very* concerned that you appear to have three separate switches on
that main switch, switching the neutral separately from the phase.
Having a single-pole switch in the neutral is very very very bad.

I would have expected the neutral to split at the main switch, feeding
two DP switches, and then feeding two consumer units.

An electrician would open the main switch and test for voltage on the
24hr and O/P terminals at the appropriate times - unfortunately this
means a night call-out for the electrician.

Do you hear a click from the meter/teleswitch at the start/end of the
off-peak period? which would be the internal contactor kicking in and out.

I think it's a supplier problem, and loss of supply/teleswitch failure
should be a lot more urgent than a 2 week wait, more like 2 hour response.

I am assuming it's nothing as mundane as the jumper to the off-peak
bus-bar in the consumer unit having fallen out of its terminals.

Owain

achookang wrote:
Alan, When was that unvented cylinder installed and who did the job?!

if you mean that small cylinder on the lower right from the big tank,
it was presumably installed when the flats were built along with
everything else. The flat is only 1 year old (approx.)

The unvented cylinder is the larger tank. If its that new, you should
have a blue benchmark card for it. Do you have it and has it been
completed?

Martyn

Owain wrote:

It appears that you have a combined meter/teleswitch which is
responsible for switching on the off-peak supply at the appropriate
time. This is why you have two phase wires (reds) out of the meter into
your main switch.

I am *very* concerned that you appear to have three separate switches on
that main switch, switching the neutral separately from the phase.
Having a single-pole switch in the neutral is very very very bad.

Now you have me worried. Can you explain a bit more, why you have
concerns about this switch arrangement? (in non-technical terms if
possible - I have no experience with this sort of thing). Is it
dangerous? In what circumstances? What needs changed?


I would have expected the neutral to split at the main switch, feeding
two DP switches, and then feeding two consumer units.

An electrician would open the main switch and test for voltage on the
24hr and O/P terminals at the appropriate times - unfortunately this
means a night call-out for the electrician.

Do you hear a click from the meter/teleswitch at the start/end of the
off-peak period? which would be the internal contactor kicking in and out.

I haven't tried listening. I don't know what time the different
charging periods start/end - any ideas? Is it always the same in
different geographical areas, and at different times of year? (and even
with different suppliers??)
Also the meter cupboard is outside the flat in the hall.

I think it's a supplier problem, and loss of supply/teleswitch failure
should be a lot more urgent than a 2 week wait, more like 2 hour response.

I'm going to try and contact Powergen again and see if I can persuade
them to come a bit quicker.


I am assuming it's nothing as mundane as the jumper to the off-peak
bus-bar in the consumer unit having fallen out of its terminals.
I'm afraid you've completely lost me there.... :-)


Alan

Martyn Pollard wrote:
achookang wrote:
Alan, When was that unvented cylinder installed and who did the job?!

The unvented cylinder is the larger tank. If its that new, you should
have a blue benchmark card for it. Do you have it and has it been
completed?

As a tenant, I haven't been left any such documents by the landlord.
What would the benchmark card tell me?

Do you have concerns there is something wrong with it? How could I
tell? Could it have any bearing on the original problem of no off peak
electricity supply? (also affects the storage heaters)

achookang wrote:
Owain wrote:
I am *very* concerned that you appear to have three separate switches on
that main switch, switching the neutral separately from the phase.
Having a single-pole switch in the neutral is very very very bad.
Now you have me worried. Can you explain a bit more, why you have
concerns about this switch arrangement? (in non-technical terms if
possible - I have no experience with this sort of thing). Is it
dangerous? In what circumstances? What needs changed?

What is bad about having a single-pole switch in the neutral is that, if
the neutral is switched off, things stop working, and it might be
assumed that the circuit is dead. However, the phase (live) is still
connected and the circuit is still very much alive and waiting to zap
anyone unsuspecting.

Are they three switches, or does the black one not do anything?

Owain

Owain wrote:
achookang wrote:
Owain wrote:
I am *very* concerned that you appear to have three separate switches on
that main switch, switching the neutral separately from the phase.
Having a single-pole switch in the neutral is very very very bad.
Now you have me worried. Can you explain a bit more, why you have
concerns about this switch arrangement? (in non-technical terms if
possible - I have no experience with this sort of thing). Is it
dangerous? In what circumstances? What needs changed?

What is bad about having a single-pole switch in the neutral is that, if
the neutral is switched off, things stop working, and it might be
assumed that the circuit is dead. However, the phase (live) is still
connected and the circuit is still very much alive and waiting to zap
anyone unsuspecting.

Are they three switches, or does the black one not do anything?

Owain,

thanks for your continuing advice.

The black switch has a metal bar/wire inside it connecting it to the
adjacent red switches. So if you move the black switch, it also
switches the red ones. I didn't fully switch them, since I'd have to
reset a bunch of timing appliances in my house (what a pain) but I
could see from moving it a bit, and closely inspecting it that it was
connected as I noted above.

I guess this is the safety mechanism so the neutral and live all get
switched together to avoid the situation you descibed.


Alan

The person installing an unvented cylinder must be 'competent'. In this
case they must have done relevant training and hold an unvented
certificate. From the picture, the plumbing of the safety discharge
pipework does not appear to meet those regulations - but I might be
wrong. I had wondered if it had been checked by the the BCO,
especially if its a new build.

Since you are not paying for the maintenance, I would ask your landlord
to get an approved person to come and give it a safety check and also
look at the problem with immersion heater. Specifically, ask the person
about the regulations for the safety discharge.

Also check out www.economy10.com for some useful info on the tariff.