Hi All,

So, a large 'home made' MDF rack / cupboard / storage system falls
off the wall of my mates shop on Sat last thing (no one hurt) and he
calls me on Monday morning in a bit if a panic to see if I can help
him sort it out.

Long story short I refuse to try to repair / put back the MDF 'kit'
that was laying on the floor and led him to some slotted upright
shelving with real pine (t/g floorboards) shelves (strong, cheap, low
sag unlike Conitiboard)?

He agrees and I rule out (checking for wires / pipes etc) and start
drilling hole for the uprights. The shop is quite old and one or two
of the holes hit flint. Now I know I could punch through it with my
SDS drill (and eventually did) but I wanted to keep the noise down for
the flat above (this *was* midday though and 86 deg) and remembered
I once had a 'masonary punch' that was perfect for cracking a hard
thing with a few taps of a hammer then being able to drill on through.
From memory it had a plated hex body like a cold chisel and a long
fluted parallel shaft / 'punch' bit?

So I nipped round the sheds, nothing, Jewsons (I though they were
pretty good?) nothing and a local very well stocked tool shop,
nothing? At least the last one had someone in there that remembered
such things but 'hadn't seen one for ages' ? ;-(

So, are they long gone .. do we just smash through everything with 3KW
impact drills these days .. ?

Yours in hope .. all the best ..

T i m

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 21:01:46 UTC, T i m wrote:

I once had a 'masonary punch' that was perfect for cracking a hard
thing with a few taps of a hammer then being able to drill on through.
From memory it had a plated hex body like a cold chisel and a long
fluted parallel shaft / 'punch' bit?

A quick google reveals this. I think it's what you are after...

http://diytools.com/store/search.asp?ProductTypeID=575

On 22 Jun 2005 21:23:07 GMT,it is alleged that "Bob Eager"
spake thusly in uk.d-i-y:

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 21:01:46 UTC, T i m wrote:

I once had a 'masonary punch' that was perfect for cracking a hard
thing with a few taps of a hammer then being able to drill on through.
From memory it had a plated hex body like a cold chisel and a long
fluted parallel shaft / 'punch' bit?

A quick google reveals this. I think it's what you are after...

http://diytools.com/store/search.asp?ProductTypeID=575

They still make them :-O
Wow. Cool. +[other expressions of pleased surprise] :-)

--
The follies which a man regrets most in his life are those
which he didn't commit when he had the opportunity.
- Helen Rowland

On 22 Jun 2005 21:23:07 GMT, "Bob Eager" wrote:

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 21:01:46 UTC, T i m wrote:

I once had a 'masonary punch' that was perfect for cracking a hard
thing with a few taps of a hammer then being able to drill on through.
From memory it had a plated hex body like a cold chisel and a long
fluted parallel shaft / 'punch' bit?

A quick google reveals this. I think it's what you are after...

http://diytools.com/store/search.asp?ProductTypeID=575

"Google" .. I knew I had forgotten something (seriously)! ;-) (Also I
wasn't sure what they were called so that wouldn't help my search ..)
;-(

But alas they aren't what I am thinking of Bob as they look like they
are designed for an SDS drill and that was what I was trying to avoid
(in this case).

All the best ..

T i m

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 22:29:51 UTC, T i m wrote:

A quick google reveals this. I think it's what you are after...

http://diytools.com/store/search.asp?ProductTypeID=575

"Google" .. I knew I had forgotten something (seriously)! ;-) (Also I
wasn't sure what they were called so that wouldn't help my search ..)
;-(

But alas they aren't what I am thinking of Bob as they look like they
are designed for an SDS drill and that was what I was trying to avoid
(in this case).

Well, I wasn't expecting you to find them on Google. I only tried
because the name came to mind. I remember my father using them, in the
days before he bought his Black and Decker and all the attachments
(circular saw, orbital sander, jigsaw...)

But look closely; I don't believe they are SDDS bits. I think they are
mean to fit the handle...

On 22 Jun 2005 22:58:15 GMT, "Bob Eager" wrote:


Well, I wasn't expecting you to find them on Google.

I bet if I knew what they were officially called it would find them
though! ;-)

I only tried
because the name came to mind. I remember my father using them, in the
days before he bought his Black and Decker and all the attachments
(circular saw, orbital sander, jigsaw...)

My first electric drill was a Stanley (still going), then a Rockwell
(sorta going) then BD .. (still going). ;-)

But look closely; I don't believe they are SDDS bits. I think they are
mean to fit the handle...

Ah, sorry, I'm just used to every bit fitting into SDS tools these
days .. drill, chisel, cocktail mixer ... ;-)

All the best ..

T i m

I bet if I knew what they were officially called it would find them
though! ;-)

I believe they were called Rawltools.

Dave

In article , "T i m"
says...
On 22 Jun 2005 21:23:07 GMT, "Bob Eager" wrote:

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 21:01:46 UTC, T i m wrote:

I once had a 'masonary punch' that was perfect for cracking a hard
thing with a few taps of a hammer then being able to drill on through.
From memory it had a plated hex body like a cold chisel and a long
fluted parallel shaft / 'punch' bit?

A quick google reveals this. I think it's what you are after...

http://diytools.com/store/search.asp?ProductTypeID=575

"Google" .. I knew I had forgotten something (seriously)! ;-) (Also I
wasn't sure what they were called so that wouldn't help my search ..)
;-(

But alas they aren't what I am thinking of Bob as they look like they
are designed for an SDS drill and that was what I was trying to avoid
(in this case).

"Ideal for use where power drills cannot be used"

These are the good old "hit and twist" drills that grandad used.

On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 02:04:36 +0100, Rob Morley
wrote:



"Ideal for use where power drills cannot be used"

These are the good old "hit and twist" drills that grandad used.

Yep .. ;-)

T i m

Rob Morley wrote:
"Google" .. I knew I had forgotten something (seriously)! ;-) (Also I
wasn't sure what they were called so that wouldn't help my search ..)

Rawldrills - obvious once you know. Google produces 42 hits.

But alas they aren't what I am thinking of Bob as they look like they
are designed for an SDS drill and that was what I was trying to avoid
(in this case).

Just think of it as a traditional Rawldrill that can be tapped very
precisely with an ordinary hammer. It even has a convenient fluted
handle.

"Ideal for use where power drills cannot be used"

These are the good old "hit and twist" drills that grandad used.

(Dad, actually, which says something about my own age.)

The very smallest of the old Rawldrill collection (3/16") now lives in
the case with the SDS drill, for jobs where a hole needs to be started
in precisely the right place on glazed tiles or a very rough surface.


--
Ian White

In article ,
Ian White wrote:
Rawldrills - obvious once you know. Google produces 42 hits.

No - Rawldrills are ordinary masonry drills - or were. The correct name is
Rawltool.

--
*If all is not lost, where the hell is it?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Rob Morley wrote:
These are the good old "hit and twist" drills that grandad used.

Oi. ;-) They were needed for many things DIY until SDS became affordable.
So last generation might be a better phrase. ;-)

--
*Why do we say something is out of whack? What is a whack? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"T i m" wrote
But alas they aren't what I am thinking of Bob as they look like they
are designed for an SDS drill and that was what I was trying to avoid
(in this case).
I don't think so. On the site it says
"Ideal for use where power drills cannot be used and accurate holes are
needed."
so looks like a hand tool

On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 11:55:21 +0800, "Toolmaker"
wrote:

"T i m" wrote
But alas they aren't what I am thinking of Bob as they look like they
are designed for an SDS drill and that was what I was trying to avoid
(in this case).
I don't think so. On the site it says
"Ideal for use where power drills cannot be used and accurate holes are
needed."
so looks like a hand tool


I think you are right but these may be the 'bit's' that go inside a
holder / handle? (but as you say, still manually powered) ;-)

I only saw the small picture and felt they weren't what I was thinking
of (they probably are just an alternative design).

All the best ..

T i m

So, are they long gone .. do we just smash through everything with 3KW
impact drills these days .. ?

Yours in hope .. all the best ..

T i m

Hmm, can't say I've heard of those, but they sound like a most
excellent idea. The closest I have had any contact with is the old
fashioned 'Rawlplug jumper" which had the fluted shaft etc, but used a
long pointy bit somewhat similar to drill bit, only with just one
flute, and not spiralled much. You'd tap it with the hammer, twist a
little, tap more, etc. (Real fun when you belt one into a 30 amp
cooker circuit that shouldn't be running diagonally up the wall)

If you know what one looks like, but can't find one new, a *really*
good place to find old tools, often in very good condition, are car
boot sales. People sell off Uncle Fred's tools while clearing out the
house, and if Fred was a tradesman, he likely wrapped them in oilcloth
40 years ago and they're still in perfect condition:-)

--
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind.
- Albert Einstein

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 21:30:29 GMT, Chip
wrote:

So, are they long gone .. do we just smash through everything with 3KW
impact drills these days .. ?

Yours in hope .. all the best ..

T i m

Hmm, can't say I've heard of those, but they sound like a most
excellent idea. The closest I have had any contact with is the old
fashioned 'Rawlplug jumper" which had the fluted shaft etc, but used a
long pointy bit somewhat similar to drill bit, only with just one
flute, and not spiralled much. You'd tap it with the hammer, twist a
little, tap more, etc. (Real fun when you belt one into a 30 amp
cooker circuit that shouldn't be running diagonally up the wall)

That's the badger Chip .. ;-)

If you know what one looks like, but can't find one new, a *really*
good place to find old tools, often in very good condition, are car
boot sales. People sell off Uncle Fred's tools while clearing out the
house, and if Fred was a tradesman, he likely wrapped them in oilcloth
40 years ago and they're still in perfect condition:-)

I wish .. I'm the bloke that would watch the only one at the boot
sale being sold just as I got there for 5p .. ;-(

All the best ..

T i m

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 21:01:46 GMT, T i m babbled
like a waterfall and said:

Hi All,

So, a large 'home made' MDF rack / cupboard / storage system falls
off the wall of my mates shop on Sat last thing (no one hurt) and he
calls me on Monday morning in a bit if a panic to see if I can help
him sort it out.

Long story short I refuse to try to repair / put back the MDF 'kit'
that was laying on the floor and led him to some slotted upright
shelving with real pine (t/g floorboards) shelves (strong, cheap, low
sag unlike Conitiboard)?

He agrees and I rule out (checking for wires / pipes etc) and start
drilling hole for the uprights. The shop is quite old and one or two
of the holes hit flint. Now I know I could punch through it with my
SDS drill (and eventually did) but I wanted to keep the noise down for
the flat above (this *was* midday though and 86 deg) and remembered
I once had a 'masonary punch' that was perfect for cracking a hard
thing with a few taps of a hammer then being able to drill on through.
From memory it had a plated hex body like a cold chisel and a long
fluted parallel shaft / 'punch' bit?

So I nipped round the sheds, nothing, Jewsons (I though they were
pretty good?) nothing and a local very well stocked tool shop,
nothing? At least the last one had someone in there that remembered
such things but 'hadn't seen one for ages' ? ;-(

So, are they long gone .. do we just smash through everything with 3KW
impact drills these days .. ?

Yours in hope .. all the best ..

T i m

They were Rawl things. Still got mine and use it occasionally. Trouble
with them was getting the drill out of the handle. You banged it into
a hard wall nicely and then tried to remove it, and only then did the
bit slip easily out of the handle, leaving the bit as part of the
wall. Any other time even the largest metalworking vice would fail.

Jolly little things.

EricP wrote:

They were Rawl things. Still got mine and use it occasionally. Trouble
with them was getting the drill out of the handle.

Never seen a handle for them.

I have always assumed it is a simple "tap & twist" affair.
I tried to use one once as I had one in my "installation engineers" tool
kit. got fed up after about 30 seconds of futile tapping & twisting so
pulled out the pre-sds hammed drill and did the job properly.

--
http://gymratz.co.uk - Best Gym Equipment & Bodybuilding Supplements UK.
http://trade-price-supplements.co.uk - TRADE PRICED SUPPLEMENTS for ALL!
http://fitness-equipment-uk.com - UK's No.1 Fitness Equipment Suppliers.
http://gymratz.co.uk/hot-seat.htm - Live web-cam! (sometimes)

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 21:59:49 GMT, "Pet @ www.gymratz.co.uk"
wrote:

EricP wrote:

They were Rawl things. Still got mine and use it occasionally. Trouble
with them was getting the drill out of the handle.

Never seen a handle for them.

I have always assumed it is a simple "tap & twist" affair.

Me 2

I tried to use one once as I had one in my "installation engineers" tool
kit. got fed up after about 30 seconds of futile tapping & twisting so
pulled out the pre-sds hammed drill and did the job properly.

;-)

I have resorted to an old tipped drill as the 'punch' but it's not as
good as the real thing ... and sometimes you don't have power .. or
room for an electric drill and it's good to know there is *a* way of
still doing it? ;-)

All the best ..

T i m

In article ,
Pet @ www.gymratz.co.uk wrote:
They were Rawl things. Still got mine and use it occasionally. Trouble
with them was getting the drill out of the handle.

Never seen a handle for them.

Think there was a de lux version with interchangeable blades for different
sizes. I've just got a few of different sizes, which are fixed. The handle
is a hex, so if they get jammed you use a spanner to free it

--
*He who laughs last has just realised the joke.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 21:36:57 GMT, EricP
wrote:


They were Rawl things. Still got mine and use it occasionally. Trouble
with them was getting the drill out of the handle. You banged it into
a hard wall nicely and then tried to remove it, and only then did the
bit slip easily out of the handle, leaving the bit as part of the
wall. Any other time even the largest metalworking vice would fail.

The one I remember was built as one item (no doubt the punch and
handle were two different steels) but the two were fused together
somehow.

Jolly little things.

They were indeed ;-)

All the best ..

T i m

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 21:36:57 UTC, EricP wrote:

They were Rawl things. Still got mine and use it occasionally. Trouble
with them was getting the drill out of the handle. You banged it into
a hard wall nicely and then tried to remove it, and only then did the
bit slip easily out of the handle, leaving the bit as part of the
wall. Any other time even the largest metalworking vice would fail.

What you needed was:

http://www.londontools.co.uk/acatalo..._RAWL_457.html

On 22 Jun 2005 22:58:14 GMT, "Bob Eager" babbled
like a waterfall and said:

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 21:36:57 UTC, EricP wrote:

They were Rawl things. Still got mine and use it occasionally. Trouble
with them was getting the drill out of the handle. You banged it into
a hard wall nicely and then tried to remove it, and only then did the
bit slip easily out of the handle, leaving the bit as part of the
wall. Any other time even the largest metalworking vice would fail.

What you needed was:

http://www.londontools.co.uk/acatalo..._RAWL_457.html

Good lord!

First prize for Googling. )

I had thought them extinct. Might get some more bits then )

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 23:09:30 GMT, EricP
wrote:


Good lord!

First prize for Googling. )

I had thought them extinct. Might get some more bits then )

And at a quid, can't be expensive eh? ;-)

T i m

On 22 Jun 2005 22:58:14 GMT, "Bob Eager" wrote:

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 21:36:57 UTC, EricP wrote:

They were Rawl things. Still got mine and use it occasionally. Trouble
with them was getting the drill out of the handle. You banged it into
a hard wall nicely and then tried to remove it, and only then did the
bit slip easily out of the handle, leaving the bit as part of the
wall. Any other time even the largest metalworking vice would fail.

What you needed was:

http://www.londontools.co.uk/acatalo..._RAWL_457.html

Well possibly .. though if the bit was part of the handle I wouldn't
;-)

If there was any chance of the bit falling out and getting jambed in
the hole then it would happen to me .. ;-(

All the best ..

T i m

In article ,
T i m wrote:
http://www.londontools.co.uk/acatalo..._RAWL_457.html

Well possibly .. though if the bit was part of the handle I wouldn't
;-)

If there was any chance of the bit falling out and getting jambed in
the hole then it would happen to me .. ;-(

Did you Google 'Rawltool'? That's what they're called.

--
*I took an IQ test and the results were negative.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
T i m wrote:
Now I know I could punch through it with my
SDS drill (and eventually did) but I wanted to keep the noise down for
the flat above (this *was* midday though and 86 deg) and remembered
I once had a 'masonary punch' that was perfect for cracking a hard
thing with a few taps of a hammer then being able to drill on through.
From memory it had a plated hex body like a cold chisel and a long
fluted parallel shaft / 'punch' bit?

Rawltool. But it wouldn't be anything like as fast as an SDS. And you
needed more than a few taps of a hammer. But they would eventually go
through stuff a hammer drill wouldn't touch. I've still got a few
somewhere. And they were very hard work.

--
*If love is blind, why is lingerie so popular?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 22:50:30 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
T i m wrote:
Now I know I could punch through it with my
SDS drill (and eventually did) but I wanted to keep the noise down for
the flat above (this *was* midday though and 86 deg) and remembered
I once had a 'masonary punch' that was perfect for cracking a hard
thing with a few taps of a hammer then being able to drill on through.
From memory it had a plated hex body like a cold chisel and a long
fluted parallel shaft / 'punch' bit?

Rawltool. But it wouldn't be anything like as fast as an SDS.

Speed isn't always everything Dave?

And you
needed more than a few taps of a hammer.

I am only talking about fracturing a stone or flint that's trying to
re-direct ter drill bit .. not making the whole hole with the thing
(even though you could).

But they would eventually go
through stuff a hammer drill wouldn't touch.

Indeed .. or break up something sufficiently to let you continue with
a lighter/ quieter cheapo 'hammer' (that aren't) drill?

I've still got a few
somewhere. And they were very hard work.

Typical .. you have 'a few' but don't use them and I would like one
but can't find one anywhere ... sigh ;-)

All the best ..

T i m

T i m wrote:

Indeed .. or break up something sufficiently to let you continue with
a lighter/ quieter cheapo 'hammer' (that aren't) drill?

I have always found my SDS to be much quieter than my standard hammer
drill. Especially as you can usually drill using very little speed
giving quite a low frequency note - far nicer than my old bosch howling
like a banshee!

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 04:18:13 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

T i m wrote:

Indeed .. or break up something sufficiently to let you continue with
a lighter/ quieter cheapo 'hammer' (that aren't) drill?

I have always found my SDS to be much quieter than my standard hammer
drill. Especially as you can usually drill using very little speed
giving quite a low frequency note - far nicer than my old bosch howling
like a banshee!

Hmmm .. good point. ;-)

The only minor fear I have is when drilling older houses (like mine ..
1897, solid 9" walls and morter mostly sand) that the power of an
'impact' drill might knock some of the bricks about? Also with SDS
drills being generally heaver I think you loose a bit of 'feel'
compared with a lighter drill?

Still looking ...

All the best ..

T i m

In article ,
T i m wrote:
The only minor fear I have is when drilling older houses (like mine ..
1897, solid 9" walls and morter mostly sand) that the power of an
'impact' drill might knock some of the bricks about? Also with SDS
drills being generally heaver I think you loose a bit of 'feel'
compared with a lighter drill?

The bricks are held in place by the weight of the ones on top.

But with mine, which is London stocks, I generally just use a hammer drill
up to No 10 or so.
Mainly because the SDS is in a case, and the bits are greasy. So kept for
serious stuff. ;-)

--
*Ah, I see the f**k-up fairy has visited us again

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

T i m wrote:

The only minor fear I have is when drilling older houses (like mine ..
1897, solid 9" walls and morter mostly sand) that the power of an
'impact' drill might knock some of the bricks about? Also with SDS

It will depend on the wall I guess... we have solid 9" walls here with a
further inch of rock hard render over. No problems drilling with the
SDS, although you need to take it easy on the exit if drilling right
through so that you don't take too big a lump out the wall as an exit wound!

drills being generally heaver I think you loose a bit of 'feel'
compared with a lighter drill?

I think my SDS and my hammer drill are simmilar weights... The hammer
drill is in theory 2 speed (although only the fastest speed works now),
so there is far less finesse than I get with the SDS and its very good
speed controller.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Rawltool. But it wouldn't be anything like as fast as an SDS.

Very similar to SDS if you think about. Whacked with a big hammer, turned,
whacked, turned, whacked.

I used to have one, very useful bit of kit with a 4lb lump hammer behind it.
How many Joules would that be?

Dave

In article ,
David Lang wrote:
Rawltool. But it wouldn't be anything like as fast as an SDS.

Very similar to SDS if you think about. Whacked with a big hammer,
turned, whacked, turned, whacked.

Absolutely.

I used to have one, very useful bit of kit with a 4lb lump hammer behind
it.

Yup - about the only DIY way of 'drilling' granite or stafford blues etc
before SDS.

How many Joules would that be?

Later...;-)

--
*If God dropped acid, would he see people?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

David Lang wrote:

I used to have one, very useful bit of kit with a 4lb lump hammer behind it.
How many Joules would that be?

Depends on how hard you hammer!

Lets say you stick 100N of force onto the hammer. That gives you a
hammer acceleration of 100 / 1.8 = 55 m/s^2

Over a 20cm stroke length that will get you to an impact speed of
sqrt( 2 * 55 * 0.2 ) = 4.7 m/s

energy = 0.5 * 1.8 * 22 = 20J

So quite a bit then!


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/