Curious to hear from anyone who whas actually notified the LABC for a DIY
job theyve done covered by Part P and their experience of this new
phenomenon.

--
Ellis Greensitt, Site Admin, UK Electricians Forum
http://supplychain.org.uk/phpBB2/index.php

Yes

Do advanced google groups search for "Part P in Practice"

Phil

I was in the middle of doing the electrics of my kitchen just after
easter. The more I researched PartP the more worried I became.

Decided it was time for an anonymous phone call to the local BCO.

When I said I wanted to speak to someone about Part P you could almost
hear the sucking in of breath, followed by his belief that it was a
poorly worded and badly thought out piece of legislation. Because of
that, they were giving everyone a period of grace up until April 1st
(no it wasn't an April Fool).

He asked if I had started the work before that date. I had, honestly.

he then said "well you're Ok then. Carry on"

a fantastic result I thought

Rob

Please tell us you got the guy's full name, job title etc and made a note of
the time and date in a place where it couldn't possibly be
lost/mislaid/overwritten etc etc.

Phil

As you asked, I contacted council about new circuit needed for immersion
heaters, intending to do it myself under Building Control. It was explained
to me that, in addition to building notice fee, there would be an expense of
getting an electrician in to check the work, and that it would be easier &
cheaper just to get one in to do the work. So that's what I did.

Egremont.

On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 14:55:11 GMT, "Egremont" wrote:

As you asked, I contacted council about new circuit needed for immersion
heaters, intending to do it myself under Building Control. It was explained
to me that, in addition to building notice fee, there would be an expense of
getting an electrician in to check the work, and that it would be easier &
cheaper just to get one in to do the work. So that's what I did.

Egremont.

Are they now allowed to charge more than the BN fee then?

Mike Harrison wrote:
On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 14:55:11 GMT, "Egremont" wrote:

As you asked, I contacted council about new circuit needed for immersion
heaters, intending to do it myself under Building Control. It was explained
to me that, in addition to building notice fee, there would be an expense of
getting an electrician in to check the work, and that it would be easier &
cheaper just to get one in to do the work. So that's what I did.

Are they now allowed to charge more than the BN fee then?

Dunno, but my council evidently do. Their website now says:

"All electrical work undertaken by a person or firm not registered with
a Part P ‘Competent Persons’ self certification scheme an extra site fee
of £165.00 + £28.88 VAT (£193.88)"

That's in addition to the normal fee, which is a minimum of £117.50 incl
VAT, which is for a project valued from £1-£2000.

So the *smallest* amount I could pay them to inspect and approve a
notifiable electrical job is £311. So small wonder that the OP received
the advice he did.

David

"Egremont" wrote in message
...
As you asked, I contacted council about new circuit needed for immersion
heaters, intending to do it myself under Building Control. It was
explained
to me that, in addition to building notice fee, there would be an expense
of
getting an electrician in to check the work, and that it would be easier &
cheaper just to get one in to do the work. So that's what I did.

Egremont.


================
I applied about a month ago and I'm still waiting for a conclusion. The
Council appointed an independent electrician to check the work (already
done - fit new consumer unit), and he did the check about three weeks ago.
He hasn't yet sent his report to Building control.

My council have agreed that there is no charge to me other than the
application fee. This was for a 'Regularisation Certificate' and the total
cost to me is £84-00.

I would suggest that you ask your local Councillor to look at the fees
you're being charged since your Council appears to be acting illegally by
charging you for the cost of inspection over and above the Application fee.

Cic.

On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 21:06:13 +0000, Ed Sirett wrote:

I suspect that
1) They _not_ permitted to make the surcharge.

Indeed, here's a link to something to show the LBA if they get uppity:

http://www.odpm.gov.uk/index.asp?id=1131042

(See paragraph headed: "Local authority inspection and testing of
electrical installation work in dwellings")

2) Frankly they don't
really want to be involved with any of the new notifiable activities [A]
and anything that makes for less work for them is desirable. Hence the
surcharge.

I can believe that.

3) The situation mostly does not arise much (except from very law abiding
diyers).

Very law abiding(!)

4) Most of the horrific examples of shoddy work neither come under their
scrutiny or anyone else's!

[A] This list is quite substantial now I believe the it to be at least the
following:
Electrical work as required by Part Pee etc. Installation of vented
cylinders
Installation of unvented cylinders.
Replacment of main heating appliance. Additional heating applainces.
Installation of flues.
Upgrading heating controls.
Installation of new ventilation.
Installation of new windows.

Some of that is reasonable. I wouldn't be happy putting in an unvented
cylinder - they scare me. Then if I were a plumber, I'd probably feel
differently.

Electrical work - As far as I'm concerned, it's the PIR that
matters, and seeking qualified advice when in doubt. Interestingly,
someone noted on one of the IEE forums that his PArt P LABC notified job
was signed off by a council appointed "inspector" who didn't actually hold
a 2391. If that is actually happening, how is this better than before?

Ventilation - to a degree. Wasn't so much of a problem before fitted
carpets and tight fitting doors/windows.

Unvented cylinder - WTF?

Heating appliances, windows, controls: Well, fuel efficiency is laudable,
but this is supposed to be a capitalist country. If an efficiency measure
is worth making, then it will be made on economic grounds by the
householder. I can see where they are coming from, I suspect most of this
is aimed at new builds to ensure that el-cheapo house builders don't cut
corners, but for householder initiated installations, well they can get
stuffed, none of their business.

I notice on the ODPMs site, a load more amendments for 2006 are in the
pipeline on Part's L and F.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again - this sort of b****cks just
brings Buildings Regs into disrepute.

Tim

Lobster wrote:
Mike Harrison wrote:

On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 14:55:11 GMT, "Egremont" wrote:

As you asked, I contacted council about new circuit needed for immersion
heaters, intending to do it myself under Building Control. It was
explained
to me that, in addition to building notice fee, there would be an
expense of
getting an electrician in to check the work, and that it would be
easier &
cheaper just to get one in to do the work. So that's what I did.


Are they now allowed to charge more than the BN fee then?


Dunno, but my council evidently do. Their website now says:

"All electrical work undertaken by a person or firm not registered with
a Part P ‘Competent Persons’ self certification scheme an extra site fee
of £165.00 + £28.88 VAT (£193.88)"

That's in addition to the normal fee, which is a minimum of £117.50 incl
VAT, which is for a project valued from £1-£2000.

So the *smallest* amount I could pay them to inspect and approve a
notifiable electrical job is £311. So small wonder that the OP received
the advice he did.


My experiences so far:

My council charge the normal rate. Amusingly the form detailing charges
instructs me to neglect the cost of all electrical work. The form
detailing the process tells me I have to get the work inspected by a
part p registered electrician. I won't argue the first if they don't
argue the second.

When I actually chatted to them in person, their first question was "Can
you test it for us". My answer was "No, but I'll find out how to" and
they were happy enough with that, and gave me the forms I'd have to fill
in (an EIC, apparently some councils ask for PIRs). They also said I
didn't need to submit a separate BN for each room, even though I'd want
to do the work on a room-by-room basis.

I got the BNA back this morning, including an inspection card I am
supposed to get filled out with stuff like excavations, footings, damp
course, drains testing.

I suspect we're going to end up ignoring the forms and doing things as
they make sense, since they admit they haven't got a clue about
electrics and aren't set up to do it - in my initial conversations, they
said they'd want to inspect first fix. On a CU replacement.

Ben

On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 01:17:35 +0000, Tim S wrote:

On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 21:06:13 +0000, Ed Sirett wrote:


4) Most of the horrific examples of shoddy work neither come under their
scrutiny or anyone else's!

[A] This list is quite substantial now I believe the it to be at least the
following:
Electrical work as required by Part Pee etc. Installation of vented
cylinders
Installation of unvented cylinders.
Replacment of main heating appliance. Additional heating applainces.
Installation of flues.
Upgrading heating controls.
Installation of new ventilation.
Installation of new windows.

Some of that is reasonable. I wouldn't be happy putting in an unvented
cylinder - they scare me. Then if I were a plumber, I'd probably feel
differently.

Well I hold a 'G3' card. Unfortunately this is of no use to me unless I
also join the IoP as CORGI don't have a self certification scheme for
these.

I agree that these devices need some sort of scrutiny. I have yet to see a
compliant installation. The main sins being in the area of the D2 pipe
(undersized, going uphill, not made of metal and not taken safely to a
gully).


Electrical work - As far as I'm concerned, it's the PIR that
matters, and seeking qualified advice when in doubt. Interestingly,
someone noted on one of the IEE forums that his PArt P LABC notified job
was signed off by a council appointed "inspector" who didn't actually hold
a 2391. If that is actually happening, how is this better than before?

AFAICT the PIR (Periodic Inspection Report) is much the same as an EIC
(Electrical Installation Certificate) although I think the former can
make reference to the latter and hence save some work (must check this out).

I think we are making the same point. All the new stuff that has been
dropped on us from our lords and masters is not what LABCOs are about nor
is it likely to sift out the truly dire
Remember:
http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/HowNotTo.html



Unvented cylinder - WTF?
we've already talked about the Unvented ones.
Did you mean Vented? Yep, even plain blue vented copper cylinder
exchanges are now notifiable jobs. Haven't you seen the
commissioning certificates stuck on the side of them?


Heating appliances, windows, controls: Well, fuel efficiency is laudable,
but this is supposed to be a capitalist country. If an efficiency measure
is worth making, then it will be made on economic grounds by the
householder. I can see where they are coming from, I suspect most of this
is aimed at new builds to ensure that el-cheapo house builders don't cut
corners,
They start out by fitting a Pott. Performa (which is a rehash design,
SEDBUK 'B', with 2 stage primary HeatX) bad enough but then they compound
it with Pott. controls.


I notice on the ODPMs site, a load more amendments for 2006 are in the
pipeline on Part's L and F.

What the F*** is that about?

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

What would *really* annoy me about being forced to give a 'competeing'
contractor an overview of my work is that I may have spent long hours
researching and devising a completely novel solution. Then I'm forced
to give up my design and thoughts for free for someone else to use
comnercially..

SFAIUI building control applications & notices are confidential to BC
and are not available to anyone - not even to the original applicant as
I found out about 5 years ago when I wanted to double check how an
application had ended up after discussion with the BCO [ I did see it
in the end but it was favour!].

On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 20:31:44 +0000, Ed Sirett wrote:

On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 01:17:35 +0000, Tim S wrote:


snip

Hi


Electrical work - As far as I'm concerned, it's the PIR that matters,
and seeking qualified advice when in doubt. Interestingly, someone noted
on one of the IEE forums that his PArt P LABC notified job was signed
off by a council appointed "inspector" who didn't actually hold a 2391.
If that is actually happening, how is this better than before?

AFAICT the PIR (Periodic Inspection Report) is much the same as an EIC
(Electrical Installation Certificate) although I think the former can
make reference to the latter and hence save some work (must check this
out).

I think we are making the same point.

Yes indeed.

All the new stuff that has been
dropped on us from our lords and masters is not what LABCOs are about nor
is it likely to sift out the truly dire Remember:
http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/HowNotTo.html


That's outstanding(!) I love the way it wibbles along the ground and
the right angle bend in front of the white drain pipe is sheer quality!

I really don't think, for one minute, that an owner-occupier totally
ignoring the non-safety related parts of the BR is going to result in the
slightest repercussion, assuming that some jobsworth doesn't notice in the
first 6 months after the job's done (I think that's the statutory
limitation on prosecution). Even given the forthcoming HiP, I just don't
think most buyers will give a rat's a**e if the boiler's non condensing,
the windows are good but not 'K' and the electrics are perfect but not
rubber stamped. They'll probably try to knock a bit off, but they do that
anyway.

I would feel differently if I were a landlord, as I'd feel some duty to
the tenants, and landlords insurance is probably extra fussy, but as an
owner-occupier, well sod them. I have enough reasons not to maim my family
and friends, I don't need a civil servant to make sure I don't.


Unvented cylinder - WTF?
we've already talked about the Unvented ones. Did you mean Vented? Yep,
even plain blue vented copper cylinder exchanges are now notifiable jobs.
Haven't you seen the commissioning certificates stuck on the side of them?

Sorry, cut'n'paste-o. No, I didn't know that. Youngest house I've set foot
in is 15 years old, which I'm guessing predates this.

Speaking entirely as a lay person, I honestly can't see much to
commission (at least on safety grounds) on a vented cylinder. Mostly:
does it work, doesn't it leak and did I get all the air out of the system.

I'm interested, what are the main points of a commissioning cert on these,
officially?


I notice on the ODPMs site, a load more amendments for 2006 are in the
pipeline on Part's L and F.

What the F*** is that about?

Had a look. Fortunately, doesn't look earth shattering. Their main
page led me to think there were major changes coming, but in reality
it looks like a host of minor ammendments. Part F from what I can see
wants better background ventilation, via a trickle ventilator in windows
or equivalent. Few other random things for offices.

Revised Part F is he

http://www.odpm.gov.uk/embedded_object.asp?id=1130634

Can't make out what's happened to Part L, looks like some updated
guidance leaflets. Probably all minor. I just noticed the heading
saying changes were afoot... Probably doesn't amount to much,
I expect they're all whacked out from extruding Part P.

Sorry, didn't mean to scare you. Caught my eye whilst looking for the
Part P bit I gave a link to.

Just wondering how long FatBoy TwoChins and his puppet master will take to
require a rubber stamp to put up a shelf.

Cheers

Tim

Tim S wrote:
Unvented cylinder - WTF?

we've already talked about the Unvented ones. Did you mean Vented? Yep,
even plain blue vented copper cylinder exchanges are now notifiable jobs.
Haven't you seen the commissioning certificates stuck on the side of them?


Sorry, cut'n'paste-o. No, I didn't know that. Youngest house I've set foot
in is 15 years old, which I'm guessing predates this.

Speaking entirely as a lay person, I honestly can't see much to
commission (at least on safety grounds) on a vented cylinder. Mostly:
does it work, doesn't it leak and did I get all the air out of the system.

I'm interested, what are the main points of a commissioning cert on these,
officially?

I think it is more to do with energy effiecieny, ie does the new
cylinder comply with Part L in terms of coil size and insulation.

I'm in the midst of building a fairly huge 2-storey extension. I'm
doing all the electrics myself. When I told the BCO, he said it was no
problem and could I do the testing. I said I'd figure it out, which he
was happy with. "We just need to see the signed certificate", he said.
So I did the testing last weekend and I'm just about to send it off to
BC.

First fix inspection was amusing. BCO admitted he knew hardly anything
and TBH about all he checked was the height of sockets. Didn't ask
about bonding, cable sizes or any of the other things I'd carefulyl
prepared answers for :-)

I think technically the BC office should pay for a contractor to come
out and test your work, but I suspect this would annoy them. And you
don't want to annoy your BCO. Anyway, testing and inspection should be
done througout the build ideally, not just at the end. Must be a bit of
a nightmare inspecting and testing someone else's work once it's all
complete.

Regards,

Jon.

"Richard Conway" wrote in message
...
Tim S wrote:
Unvented cylinder - WTF?

we've already talked about the Unvented ones. Did you mean Vented? Yep,
even plain blue vented copper cylinder exchanges are now notifiable jobs.
Haven't you seen the commissioning certificates stuck on the side of
them?


Sorry, cut'n'paste-o. No, I didn't know that. Youngest house I've set
foot
in is 15 years old, which I'm guessing predates this.

Speaking entirely as a lay person, I honestly can't see much to
commission (at least on safety grounds) on a vented cylinder. Mostly:
does it work, doesn't it leak and did I get all the air out of the
system.

I'm interested, what are the main points of a commissioning cert on
these,
officially?

I think it is more to do with energy effiecieny, ie does the new cylinder
comply with Part L in terms of coil size and insulation.

Are you suggesting that a manufacturer would produce a cylinder that would
not meet the requirements and still apply a commissioning sticker for the
installer to fill in?G