Hi,

I am replacing my current 20 yr old HW cylinder and am considering
installing a mains pressure unvented system to remove the need for a
shower pump.

The installation instructions for some of these cylinders describe
particular building regulations to follow etc. and it does not look
overly complex but is the installation something that can be legally
carried out by a proficient diyer or does it require a professional.

Looking at the supplier web sites there seems to be quite a variation in
price between Thermasaver, Heatrae and Albion. Is there a significant
difference between them or does anyone have particular experience of
installing and commisioning them?

Thanks

Kevin

On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:35:10 +0100, Kevin Campbell
wrote:

Hi,

I am replacing my current 20 yr old HW cylinder and am considering
installing a mains pressure unvented system to remove the need for a
shower pump.

The installation instructions for some of these cylinders describe
particular building regulations to follow etc. and it does not look
overly complex but is the installation something that can be legally
carried out by a proficient diyer or does it require a professional.

There are two main options.

-You can use a BBA or Institute of Plumbing approved installer
- You can issue a Building Notice at your local authority. This will
carry a fee which is based on the commercial (not DIY) cost of the
works. Details from your local authority building control department.
Be prepared for fun if you go this route, because the implementation
of the legislation intends you to go for the first option.

If you know what you are doing, there is no specific reason why you
shouldn't do the work provided that you use the correct components in
the correct places. However, remember that you have potentially 200
litres of scalding water under pressure, so not unreasonably it's
important that the installation is done safely. This is why there
is a competent installer scheme and an alternative route if not.

Don't be tempted to skip this because you will find the house
unsaleable if you don't have the paper trail.





Looking at the supplier web sites there seems to be quite a variation in
price between Thermasaver, Heatrae and Albion. Is there a significant
difference between them or does anyone have particular experience of
installing and commisioning them?

Thanks

Kevin

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Kevin Campbell" wrote in message
...
Hi,

I am replacing my current 20 yr old HW cylinder and am considering
installing a mains pressure unvented system to remove the need for a
shower pump.

The installation instructions for some of these cylinders describe
particular building regulations to follow etc. and it does not look
overly complex but is the installation something that can be legally
carried out by a proficient diyer or does it require a professional.

Looking at the supplier web sites there seems to be quite a variation in
price between Thermasaver, Heatrae and Albion. Is there a significant
difference between them or does anyone have particular experience of
installing and commisioning them?

Kevin,

Unvented cylinders require a BBA approved fitter. Not a DIY task. A DHW
only heat banks is superior in many aspects and can be DIYed. Some versions
don't even require an overflow pipe to the outside. Unvented cylinders are
at high pressure and require complex pressure reducing and control valves
and kit. Heat banks are at low pressure and still give full mains pressure
hot water.

Unvented cylinders require annual servicing. If one bursts (and when they
go they go with abig insurance job) your insurance company may not pay out
if it is not serviced each year, and certainly if not fitted by a BBA
fitter.

See:
http://www.heatweb.com
http://www.range-cylinders.co.uk (go to thermal storage)



---
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On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 17:27:45 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Kevin Campbell" wrote in message
...
Hi,

I am replacing my current 20 yr old HW cylinder and am considering
installing a mains pressure unvented system to remove the need for a
shower pump.

Kevin

Consider getting a combi to supply the showers only. Then no expensive,
noisy, vibrating, troublesome power shower pumps. Have the CH section as a
conventional system with a 3-way "diverter" valve, not mid-position. As the
combi's water section will only be used for showers, once or twice a day,
they last quite a time as they are not excessivly switching in an out. All
the water system, except the showers will be at low pressure and high flow.

If you are replacing the cold water tank think about a "combi cylinder".
Have a 50-50 split of hot water and cold water storage. Have the cold water
section 115 litres and take all the cold supplies off the cold water
section. This way using a combi boiler for the shower side you eliminate
the cold water tank in the loft, or put the combi cylinder in the loft (well
insulated of course) and have a larger airing cupboard. Telford do the
Trident, which has a 115litre/115litre split. have a look at their web
site. Combi cylinders are simpler and quicker to install.
http://www.telford-group.com/trident.htm

Some cylinder makers will provide combi cylinders to order, in that if you
wanted a 115 litre hot section and 115 litre cold section and appropriate
tappings, etc, they will provide it.

So you would have:

1. A combi boiler supplying any high pressure showers.
2. A combi cylinder with a large cold water section. providing low pressure
hot and cold water.
3. A DHW priority system.
4. No tank in the loft, or
5. A combi cylinder in the loft and a larger airing cupboard.

This is a cost effective way to get high pressure showers and rid of a
separate cold water tank, the only points you need high pressure.


There are a number of pitfalls for the unwary in this.

A Google search for previous threads on the limitations of this
approach would be advisable



---

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 17:27:45 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Kevin Campbell" wrote in message
...
Hi,

I am replacing my current 20 yr old HW cylinder and am considering
installing a mains pressure unvented system to remove the need for a
shower pump.

Kevin

Consider getting a combi to supply the showers only. Then no expensive,
noisy, vibrating, troublesome power shower pumps. Have the CH section as
a
conventional system with a 3-way "diverter" valve, not mid-position. As
the
combi's water section will only be used for showers, once or twice a day,
they last quite a time as they are not excessivly switching in an out.
All
the water system, except the showers will be at low pressure and high
flow.

If you are replacing the cold water tank think about a "combi cylinder".
Have a 50-50 split of hot water and cold water storage. Have the cold
water
section 115 litres and take all the cold supplies off the cold water
section. This way using a combi boiler for the shower side you eliminate
the cold water tank in the loft, or put the combi cylinder in the loft
(well
insulated of course) and have a larger airing cupboard. Telford do the
Trident, which has a 115litre/115litre split. have a look at their web
site. Combi cylinders are simpler and quicker to install.
http://www.telford-group.com/trident.htm

Some cylinder makers will provide combi cylinders to order, in that if
you
wanted a 115 litre hot section and 115 litre cold section and appropriate
tappings, etc, they will provide it.

So you would have:

1. A combi boiler supplying any high pressure showers.
2. A combi cylinder with a large cold water section. providing low
pressure
hot and cold water.
3. A DHW priority system.
4. No tank in the loft, or
5. A combi cylinder in the loft and a larger airing cupboard.

This is a cost effective way to get high pressure showers and rid of a
separate cold water tank, the only points you need high pressure.


There are a number of pitfalls for the unwary in this.

Not of they follow what I outlined.


---
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"IMM" wrote in message ...
"Kevin Campbell" wrote in message
...

Unvented cylinders require annual servicing. If one bursts (and when they
go they go with abig insurance job) your insurance company may not pay out
if it is not serviced each year, and certainly if not fitted by a BBA
fitter.

I was also under the impression that unvented cylinders required
annual servicing; however when I recently had our unvented Vaillant
system serviced (by an in-house Vaillant engineer) the guy did the
boiler but didn't even want to look at the cylinder (see previous
thread at http://tinyurl.com/jtjf). Other respondents seemed to
indicate that was reasonable...??

David

"David" wrote in message
om...
Andy Hall wrote in message
. ..
On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:35:10 +0100, Kevin Campbell
wrote:

-You can use a BBA or Institute of Plumbing approved installer
- You can issue a Building Notice at your local authority. This will
carry a fee which is based on the commercial (not DIY) cost of the
works. Details from your local authority building control department.
Be prepared for fun if you go this route, because the implementation
of the legislation intends you to go for the first option.

If you know what you are doing, there is no specific reason why you
shouldn't do the work provided that you use the correct components in
the correct places. However, remember that you have potentially 200
litres of scalding water under pressure, so not unreasonably it's
important that the installation is done safely. This is why there
is a competent installer scheme and an alternative route if not.

Don't be tempted to skip this because you will find the house
unsaleable if you don't have the paper trail.

We had an extension built 2-3 years ago, during which time we also had
an unvented system installed. We went through all the proper channels
vis-a-vis building control and planning permission, and told the
council (verbally) we were putting the unvented system in, because I
knew this was subject to building control; however they really weren't
interested. I remember when the council guy came round to sign off
after the extension was done I opened the airing cupboard door to show
off my new high-pressure tank, but he wasn't bothered. He signed us
off, but nowhere do I have any record of my unvented system having
been inspected and approved - or even me having asked for it to be
checked, for that matter. Only 'evidence' I have is the installer's
documentation which slightly predates the final council inspection
certificate.

I'm happy my system is safe and above board, but should I be worried
about lack of paper trail?

David,

If you have the council signing it off and the BBA man signing it off to,
then fine. If it requires an annual service then you have better get one
done each year by a BBA man, otherwise the insurance company will not pay
up.



---
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"David" wrote in message
om...
"IMM" wrote in message
...
"Kevin Campbell" wrote in message
...

Unvented cylinders require annual servicing. If one bursts (and when
they
go they go with abig insurance job) your insurance company may not pay
out
if it is not serviced each year, and certainly if not fitted by a BBA
fitter.

I was also under the impression that unvented cylinders required
annual servicing; however when I recently had our unvented Vaillant
system serviced (by an in-house Vaillant engineer) the guy did the
boiler but didn't even want to look at the cylinder (see previous
thread at http://tinyurl.com/jtjf). Other respondents seemed to
indicate that was reasonable...??

David,

Check with Vaillant. Emphasise: service, insurance.


---
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"Andy Hall" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 17:27:45 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Kevin Campbell" wrote in message
...
Hi,

I am replacing my current 20 yr old HW cylinder and am considering
installing a mains pressure unvented system to remove the need for a
shower pump.

Kevin

Consider getting a combi to supply the showers only. Then no expensive,
noisy, vibrating, troublesome power shower pumps. Have the CH section as
a
conventional system with a 3-way "diverter" valve, not mid-position. As
the
combi's water section will only be used for showers, once or twice a day,
they last quite a time as they are not excessivly switching in an out.
All
the water system, except the showers will be at low pressure and high
flow.

If you are replacing the cold water tank think about a "combi cylinder".
Have a 50-50 split of hot water and cold water storage. Have the cold
water
section 115 litres and take all the cold supplies off the cold water
section. This way using a combi boiler for the shower side you eliminate
the cold water tank in the loft, or put the combi cylinder in the loft
(well
insulated of course) and have a larger airing cupboard. Telford do the
Trident, which has a 115litre/115litre split. have a look at their web
site. Combi cylinders are simpler and quicker to install.
http://www.telford-group.com/trident.htm

Some cylinder makers will provide combi cylinders to order, in that if
you
wanted a 115 litre hot section and 115 litre cold section and appropriate
tappings, etc, they will provide it.

So you would have:

1. A combi boiler supplying any high pressure showers.
2. A combi cylinder with a large cold water section. providing low
pressure
hot and cold water.
3. A DHW priority system.
4. No tank in the loft, or
5. A combi cylinder in the loft and a larger airing cupboard.

This is a cost effective way to get high pressure showers and rid of a
separate cold water tank, the only points you need high pressure.


There are a number of pitfalls for the unwary in this.

A Google search for previous threads on the limitations of this
approach would be advisable

Please supply link to spurious information.


---
--

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.507 / Virus Database: 304 - Release Date: 04/08/2003

On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 11:37:42 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 17:27:45 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Kevin Campbell" wrote in message
...
Hi,

I am replacing my current 20 yr old HW cylinder and am considering
installing a mains pressure unvented system to remove the need for a
shower pump.

Kevin

Consider getting a combi to supply the showers only. Then no expensive,
noisy, vibrating, troublesome power shower pumps. Have the CH section as
a
conventional system with a 3-way "diverter" valve, not mid-position. As
the
combi's water section will only be used for showers, once or twice a day,
they last quite a time as they are not excessivly switching in an out.
All
the water system, except the showers will be at low pressure and high
flow.

If you are replacing the cold water tank think about a "combi cylinder".
Have a 50-50 split of hot water and cold water storage. Have the cold
water
section 115 litres and take all the cold supplies off the cold water
section. This way using a combi boiler for the shower side you eliminate
the cold water tank in the loft, or put the combi cylinder in the loft
(well
insulated of course) and have a larger airing cupboard. Telford do the
Trident, which has a 115litre/115litre split. have a look at their web
site. Combi cylinders are simpler and quicker to install.
http://www.telford-group.com/trident.htm

Some cylinder makers will provide combi cylinders to order, in that if
you
wanted a 115 litre hot section and 115 litre cold section and appropriate
tappings, etc, they will provide it.

So you would have:

1. A combi boiler supplying any high pressure showers.
2. A combi cylinder with a large cold water section. providing low
pressure
hot and cold water.
3. A DHW priority system.
4. No tank in the loft, or
5. A combi cylinder in the loft and a larger airing cupboard.

This is a cost effective way to get high pressure showers and rid of a
separate cold water tank, the only points you need high pressure.


There are a number of pitfalls for the unwary in this.

A Google search for previous threads on the limitations of this
approach would be advisable

Please supply link to spurious information.


No need. A search on your name plus keywords such as "combi" and
"heatbank" will reveal about 90% of the spurious information generated
in this NG.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 11:37:42 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 17:27:45 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Kevin Campbell" wrote in message
...
Hi,

I am replacing my current 20 yr old HW cylinder and am considering
installing a mains pressure unvented system to remove the need for a
shower pump.

Kevin

Consider getting a combi to supply the showers only. Then no
expensive,
noisy, vibrating, troublesome power shower pumps. Have the CH section
as
a
conventional system with a 3-way "diverter" valve, not mid-position.
As
the
combi's water section will only be used for showers, once or twice a
day,
they last quite a time as they are not excessivly switching in an out.
All
the water system, except the showers will be at low pressure and high
flow.

If you are replacing the cold water tank think about a "combi
cylinder".
Have a 50-50 split of hot water and cold water storage. Have the cold
water
section 115 litres and take all the cold supplies off the cold water
section. This way using a combi boiler for the shower side you
eliminate
the cold water tank in the loft, or put the combi cylinder in the loft
(well
insulated of course) and have a larger airing cupboard. Telford do
the
Trident, which has a 115litre/115litre split. have a look at their
web
site. Combi cylinders are simpler and quicker to install.
http://www.telford-group.com/trident.htm

Some cylinder makers will provide combi cylinders to order, in that if
you
wanted a 115 litre hot section and 115 litre cold section and
appropriate
tappings, etc, they will provide it.

So you would have:

1. A combi boiler supplying any high pressure showers.
2. A combi cylinder with a large cold water section. providing low
pressure
hot and cold water.
3. A DHW priority system.
4. No tank in the loft, or
5. A combi cylinder in the loft and a larger airing cupboard.

This is a cost effective way to get high pressure showers and rid of a
separate cold water tank, the only points you need high pressure.

There are a number of pitfalls for the unwary in this.

A Google search for previous threads on the limitations of this
approach would be advisable

Please supply link to spurious information.

No need.

The topic was a combi boiler supplying the shower and a combi cylinder
supplying the rest. Link please? I assume you made it up; about the Google
and all that.


---
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On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 12:34:27 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


So you would have:

1. A combi boiler supplying any high pressure showers.
2. A combi cylinder with a large cold water section. providing low
pressure
hot and cold water.
3. A DHW priority system.
4. No tank in the loft, or
5. A combi cylinder in the loft and a larger airing cupboard.

This is a cost effective way to get high pressure showers and rid of a
separate cold water tank, the only points you need high pressure.

There are a number of pitfalls for the unwary in this.

A Google search for previous threads on the limitations of this
approach would be advisable

Please supply link to spurious information.

No need.

The topic was a combi boiler supplying the shower and a combi cylinder
supplying the rest. Link please? I assume you made it up; about the Google
and all that.


Actually not. The topic was about a mains pressure unvented cylinder.
You introduced combination boilers, tanks and underwear.....




---

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 12:34:27 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


So you would have:

1. A combi boiler supplying any high pressure showers.
2. A combi cylinder with a large cold water section. providing low
pressure
hot and cold water.
3. A DHW priority system.
4. No tank in the loft, or
5. A combi cylinder in the loft and a larger airing cupboard.

This is a cost effective way to get high pressure showers and rid
of a
separate cold water tank, the only points you need high pressure.

There are a number of pitfalls for the unwary in this.

A Google search for previous threads on the limitations of this
approach would be advisable

Please supply link to spurious information.

No need.

The topic was a combi boiler supplying the shower and a combi cylinder
supplying the rest. Link please? I assume you made it up; about the
Google
and all that.

Actually not.

Actually yes.

The topic was about a mains pressure unvented cylinder.
You introduced combination boilers, tanks

The OP wanted a solution to a problem. I gave a far better and cheaper
solution. One which you should have adopted, but you never knew.

and underwear.....

You are cracking up man. Get professional attention.



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On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 12:31:26 +0100, "IMM" wrote:

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...

A Google search for previous threads on the limitations of this
approach would be advisable

Please supply link to spurious information.

No need. A search on your name plus keywords such as "combi" and
"heatbank" will reveal about 90% of the spurious information generated
in this NG.

How long have comeded?

Qué ?? (1)

Phil Addison
1. Fawlty Towers, any episode you like.

--
Phil Addison
The uk.d-i-y FAQ is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/
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