On Tue, 7 Feb 2012 18:46:10 -0500, "Existential Angst"
wrote:

Awl --

Ie, discounts....

If the base price of a machine is $90K, with about $15K in options (rigid
tapping, larger carousel, renishaw, programmable coolant, etc), how much
wiggle room is there in the bottom-line price?

How does one gracefully, visavis combattively, negotiate a discount?

Big machine vendors, like Haas, have substantial educational discounts, and
I would think that "we" could get at least a piece of that.

Iny thoughts?

Having been sales manager for one machine tool company, and marketing
manager for two, I'd say you should push hard. I don't know what gross
margins are today but when I was involved they were on the order of
50% of list price. We needed an average of 30% or so to survive. That
was in 2001.

What discount you can get depends on several things. You aren't big
enough to get a loss-leader type of discount, in which they expect to
sell you more machines. Depending on what you're buying, you may get a
deal by clearing out some inventory, if new models are on the way. You
could run into a situation where a company has to meet a quota and
they'll give up a lot to make a sale. The chances of this happening in
February are quite slim.

I'd start with 25% off. If you can't get 15%, consider waiting and
digging in your heels a bit. But stay with them if you do that. Don't
brush them off or say "take it or leave it." Keep them on the hook.

If you really need the machine, now, expect something like 10%.

Now, what are you buying, and from whom?

--
Ed Huntress

On Tue, 07 Feb 2012 19:23:36 -0500, Ed Huntress wrote:

On Tue, 7 Feb 2012 18:46:10 -0500, "Existential Angst"
wrote:

Awl --

Ie, discounts....

If the base price of a machine is $90K, with about $15K in options
(rigid tapping, larger carousel, renishaw, programmable coolant, etc),
how much wiggle room is there in the bottom-line price?

How does one gracefully, visavis combattively, negotiate a discount?

Big machine vendors, like Haas, have substantial educational discounts,
and I would think that "we" could get at least a piece of that.

Iny thoughts?

Having been sales manager for one machine tool company, and marketing
manager for two, I'd say you should push hard. I don't know what gross
margins are today but when I was involved they were on the order of 50%
of list price. We needed an average of 30% or so to survive. That was in
2001.

What discount you can get depends on several things. You aren't big
enough to get a loss-leader type of discount, in which they expect to
sell you more machines. Depending on what you're buying, you may get a
deal by clearing out some inventory, if new models are on the way. You
could run into a situation where a company has to meet a quota and
they'll give up a lot to make a sale. The chances of this happening in
February are quite slim.

Is there a right way to ask if any particular models are on the "clear
out this inventory now" list?

Ang: I thought you were in New Yawk City -- aren't "graceful negotiating"
and "combative negotiating" synonyms over there?

--
My liberal friends think I'm a conservative kook.
My conservative friends think I'm a liberal kook.
Why am I not happy that they have found common ground?

Tim Wescott, Communications, Control, Circuits & Software
http://www.wescottdesign.com

On Tue, 07 Feb 2012 19:17:02 -0600, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On Tue, 07 Feb 2012 19:23:36 -0500, Ed Huntress wrote:

On Tue, 7 Feb 2012 18:46:10 -0500, "Existential Angst"
wrote:

Awl --

Ie, discounts....

If the base price of a machine is $90K, with about $15K in options
(rigid tapping, larger carousel, renishaw, programmable coolant, etc),
how much wiggle room is there in the bottom-line price?

How does one gracefully, visavis combattively, negotiate a discount?

Big machine vendors, like Haas, have substantial educational discounts,
and I would think that "we" could get at least a piece of that.

Iny thoughts?

Having been sales manager for one machine tool company, and marketing
manager for two, I'd say you should push hard. I don't know what gross
margins are today but when I was involved they were on the order of 50%
of list price. We needed an average of 30% or so to survive. That was in
2001.

What discount you can get depends on several things. You aren't big
enough to get a loss-leader type of discount, in which they expect to
sell you more machines. Depending on what you're buying, you may get a
deal by clearing out some inventory, if new models are on the way. You
could run into a situation where a company has to meet a quota and
they'll give up a lot to make a sale. The chances of this happening in
February are quite slim.

Is there a right way to ask if any particular models are on the "clear
out this inventory now" list?

Just ask. Every salesman is different, but you'll do best with most of
them just by being straightforward.

I personally handled sales to the aerospace industry, when I was sales
manager at Sodick. They were my "pocket accounts." I liked working
with straight talkers. We could do business -- and I was more inclined
to be sympathetic to their situation.

If you bull**** the salesmen, they won't respect you. Just say what's
on your mind. There's nothing to be gained by being coy in machine
tool purchases.


Ang: I thought you were in New Yawk City -- aren't "graceful negotiating"
and "combative negotiating" synonyms over there?

g I'm in New Jersey. Most of my business dealings were in New
England or Chicago.

Sodick then was headquartered in Saddle Brook, NJ. Wasino, where I was
marketing manager, was in Wayne, NJ. Both are now in Chicago suburbs.

--
Ed Huntress

On Tue, 07 Feb 2012 20:29:11 -0500, Ed Huntress wrote:

On Tue, 07 Feb 2012 19:17:02 -0600, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On Tue, 07 Feb 2012 19:23:36 -0500, Ed Huntress wrote:

On Tue, 7 Feb 2012 18:46:10 -0500, "Existential Angst"
wrote:

Awl --

Ie, discounts....

If the base price of a machine is $90K, with about $15K in options
(rigid tapping, larger carousel, renishaw, programmable coolant, etc),
how much wiggle room is there in the bottom-line price?

How does one gracefully, visavis combattively, negotiate a discount?

Big machine vendors, like Haas, have substantial educational
discounts, and I would think that "we" could get at least a piece of
that.

Iny thoughts?

Having been sales manager for one machine tool company, and marketing
manager for two, I'd say you should push hard. I don't know what gross
margins are today but when I was involved they were on the order of
50% of list price. We needed an average of 30% or so to survive. That
was in 2001.

What discount you can get depends on several things. You aren't big
enough to get a loss-leader type of discount, in which they expect to
sell you more machines. Depending on what you're buying, you may get a
deal by clearing out some inventory, if new models are on the way. You
could run into a situation where a company has to meet a quota and
they'll give up a lot to make a sale. The chances of this happening in
February are quite slim.

Is there a right way to ask if any particular models are on the "clear
out this inventory now" list?

Just ask. Every salesman is different, but you'll do best with most of
them just by being straightforward.

I was just wondering if there's a common term. For stereo equipment it's
'floor model', for new cars in September it's whatever has that year on
the windshield.

"Old inventory you want to move" is universal, I suppose.

--
My liberal friends think I'm a conservative kook.
My conservative friends think I'm a liberal kook.
Why am I not happy that they have found common ground?

Tim Wescott, Communications, Control, Circuits & Software
http://www.wescottdesign.com

On Tue, 07 Feb 2012 19:57:33 -0600, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On Tue, 07 Feb 2012 20:29:11 -0500, Ed Huntress wrote:

On Tue, 07 Feb 2012 19:17:02 -0600, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On Tue, 07 Feb 2012 19:23:36 -0500, Ed Huntress wrote:

On Tue, 7 Feb 2012 18:46:10 -0500, "Existential Angst"
wrote:

Awl --

Ie, discounts....

If the base price of a machine is $90K, with about $15K in options
(rigid tapping, larger carousel, renishaw, programmable coolant, etc),
how much wiggle room is there in the bottom-line price?

How does one gracefully, visavis combattively, negotiate a discount?

Big machine vendors, like Haas, have substantial educational
discounts, and I would think that "we" could get at least a piece of
that.

Iny thoughts?

Having been sales manager for one machine tool company, and marketing
manager for two, I'd say you should push hard. I don't know what gross
margins are today but when I was involved they were on the order of
50% of list price. We needed an average of 30% or so to survive. That
was in 2001.

What discount you can get depends on several things. You aren't big
enough to get a loss-leader type of discount, in which they expect to
sell you more machines. Depending on what you're buying, you may get a
deal by clearing out some inventory, if new models are on the way. You
could run into a situation where a company has to meet a quota and
they'll give up a lot to make a sale. The chances of this happening in
February are quite slim.

Is there a right way to ask if any particular models are on the "clear
out this inventory now" list?

Just ask. Every salesman is different, but you'll do best with most of
them just by being straightforward.

I was just wondering if there's a common term. For stereo equipment it's
'floor model', for new cars in September it's whatever has that year on
the windshield.

"Old inventory you want to move" is universal, I suppose.

You're not likely to know when they have new models coming out and are
trying to move old inventory, until the new models actually come out.

If you're the Lean Manufacturing manager at Ford or GM, you have
sources in Japan and Germany who are telling you what's going on.
Otherwise, just be straight and open with the salesman. He may tell
you.

--
Ed Huntress

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 7 Feb 2012 18:46:10 -0500, "Existential Angst"
wrote:

Awl --

Ie, discounts....

If the base price of a machine is $90K, with about $15K in options (rigid
tapping, larger carousel, renishaw, programmable coolant, etc), how much
wiggle room is there in the bottom-line price?

How does one gracefully, visavis combattively, negotiate a discount?

Big machine vendors, like Haas, have substantial educational discounts,
and
I would think that "we" could get at least a piece of that.

Iny thoughts?

Having been sales manager for one machine tool company, and marketing
manager for two, I'd say you should push hard. I don't know what gross
margins are today but when I was involved they were on the order of
50% of list price. We needed an average of 30% or so to survive. That
was in 2001.

What discount you can get depends on several things. You aren't big
enough to get a loss-leader type of discount, in which they expect to
sell you more machines. Depending on what you're buying, you may get a
deal by clearing out some inventory, if new models are on the way. You
could run into a situation where a company has to meet a quota and
they'll give up a lot to make a sale. The chances of this happening in
February are quite slim.

I'd start with 25% off. If you can't get 15%, consider waiting and
digging in your heels a bit. But stay with them if you do that. Don't
brush them off or say "take it or leave it." Keep them on the hook.

If you really need the machine, now, expect something like 10%.

Now, what are you buying, and from whom?

Haas GR510 gantry mill, 5 ft by 10 ft bed (!!!), NJ Haas.
Will really make my miserable life a bit less miserable. Am keeping the
fadal, for the small stuff.
The Haas may double as my bedroom.

Yeah, I kinda blew the December "deadline" ito bookkeeping, inventory, and
all that, but they were so busy anyway.
Not a popular machine, but I think it's an undiscovered gem, for many
applications.
--
EA


--
Ed Huntress

On Tue, 7 Feb 2012 22:05:25 -0500, "Existential Angst"
wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 7 Feb 2012 18:46:10 -0500, "Existential Angst"
wrote:

Awl --

Ie, discounts....

If the base price of a machine is $90K, with about $15K in options (rigid
tapping, larger carousel, renishaw, programmable coolant, etc), how much
wiggle room is there in the bottom-line price?

How does one gracefully, visavis combattively, negotiate a discount?

Big machine vendors, like Haas, have substantial educational discounts,
and
I would think that "we" could get at least a piece of that.

Iny thoughts?

Having been sales manager for one machine tool company, and marketing
manager for two, I'd say you should push hard. I don't know what gross
margins are today but when I was involved they were on the order of
50% of list price. We needed an average of 30% or so to survive. That
was in 2001.

What discount you can get depends on several things. You aren't big
enough to get a loss-leader type of discount, in which they expect to
sell you more machines. Depending on what you're buying, you may get a
deal by clearing out some inventory, if new models are on the way. You
could run into a situation where a company has to meet a quota and
they'll give up a lot to make a sale. The chances of this happening in
February are quite slim.

I'd start with 25% off. If you can't get 15%, consider waiting and
digging in your heels a bit. But stay with them if you do that. Don't
brush them off or say "take it or leave it." Keep them on the hook.

If you really need the machine, now, expect something like 10%.

Now, what are you buying, and from whom?

Haas GR510 gantry mill, 5 ft by 10 ft bed (!!!), NJ Haas.
Will really make my miserable life a bit less miserable. Am keeping the
fadal, for the small stuff.
The Haas may double as my bedroom.

I can't help you much there. I haven't had any dealings with Haas for
over 10 years. Gene Haas used to push his salesmen really hard for
volume; they were tough competitors who didn't like to lose a sale.


Yeah, I kinda blew the December "deadline" ito bookkeeping, inventory, and
all that, but they were so busy anyway.
Not a popular machine, but I think it's an undiscovered gem, for many
applications.

And I don't know routers. All I can suggest is that patience is your
best weapon. If possible, don't sell yourself on their machine. Get
one or two competitors lined up. You don't want to be sitting there
waiting to be romanced by one builder.

Good luck!

--
Ed Huntress

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 7 Feb 2012 22:05:25 -0500, "Existential Angst"
wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
. ..
On Tue, 7 Feb 2012 18:46:10 -0500, "Existential Angst"
wrote:

Awl --

Ie, discounts....

If the base price of a machine is $90K, with about $15K in options
(rigid
tapping, larger carousel, renishaw, programmable coolant, etc), how much
wiggle room is there in the bottom-line price?

How does one gracefully, visavis combattively, negotiate a discount?

Big machine vendors, like Haas, have substantial educational discounts,
and
I would think that "we" could get at least a piece of that.

Iny thoughts?

Having been sales manager for one machine tool company, and marketing
manager for two, I'd say you should push hard. I don't know what gross
margins are today but when I was involved they were on the order of
50% of list price. We needed an average of 30% or so to survive. That
was in 2001.

What discount you can get depends on several things. You aren't big
enough to get a loss-leader type of discount, in which they expect to
sell you more machines. Depending on what you're buying, you may get a
deal by clearing out some inventory, if new models are on the way. You
could run into a situation where a company has to meet a quota and
they'll give up a lot to make a sale. The chances of this happening in
February are quite slim.

I'd start with 25% off. If you can't get 15%, consider waiting and
digging in your heels a bit. But stay with them if you do that. Don't
brush them off or say "take it or leave it." Keep them on the hook.

If you really need the machine, now, expect something like 10%.

Now, what are you buying, and from whom?

Haas GR510 gantry mill, 5 ft by 10 ft bed (!!!), NJ Haas.
Will really make my miserable life a bit less miserable. Am keeping the
fadal, for the small stuff.
The Haas may double as my bedroom.

I can't help you much there. I haven't had any dealings with Haas for
over 10 years. Gene Haas used to push his salesmen really hard for
volume; they were tough competitors who didn't like to lose a sale.

Did jail soften him up any??
Any visible tattoos.... like on the knuckes.....?? LOL



Yeah, I kinda blew the December "deadline" ito bookkeeping, inventory, and
all that, but they were so busy anyway.
Not a popular machine, but I think it's an undiscovered gem, for many
applications.

And I don't know routers. All I can suggest is that patience is your
best weapon. If possible, don't sell yourself on their machine. Get
one or two competitors lined up. You don't want to be sitting there
waiting to be romanced by one builder.

First, this is not really a router, cuz the spindle speed isn't high enough.
It is, imo, an open VMC, a bit less rigid than a typical vmc. Standard Haas
control and all.
Next, there are plenty of other gantry machines, if you want them 50 ft
long, and 5x the price.

I don't know of any other competitors in this price range. Actually, I did
find similarly sized machines, but MUCH beefier, more expensive, etc.
Forgot the names, but bottom line is, unless I went the woodworking route
(which is what I was exploring, to then modify), I don't know what else is
out there.


Good luck!

As perhaps the world's worst bidnissman, I'll need it.
--
EA



--
Ed Huntress

On Wed, 8 Feb 2012 12:44:41 -0500, "Existential Angst"
wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 7 Feb 2012 22:05:25 -0500, "Existential Angst"
wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 7 Feb 2012 18:46:10 -0500, "Existential Angst"
wrote:

Awl --

Ie, discounts....

If the base price of a machine is $90K, with about $15K in options
(rigid
tapping, larger carousel, renishaw, programmable coolant, etc), how much
wiggle room is there in the bottom-line price?

How does one gracefully, visavis combattively, negotiate a discount?

Big machine vendors, like Haas, have substantial educational discounts,
and
I would think that "we" could get at least a piece of that.

Iny thoughts?

Having been sales manager for one machine tool company, and marketing
manager for two, I'd say you should push hard. I don't know what gross
margins are today but when I was involved they were on the order of
50% of list price. We needed an average of 30% or so to survive. That
was in 2001.

What discount you can get depends on several things. You aren't big
enough to get a loss-leader type of discount, in which they expect to
sell you more machines. Depending on what you're buying, you may get a
deal by clearing out some inventory, if new models are on the way. You
could run into a situation where a company has to meet a quota and
they'll give up a lot to make a sale. The chances of this happening in
February are quite slim.

I'd start with 25% off. If you can't get 15%, consider waiting and
digging in your heels a bit. But stay with them if you do that. Don't
brush them off or say "take it or leave it." Keep them on the hook.

If you really need the machine, now, expect something like 10%.

Now, what are you buying, and from whom?

Haas GR510 gantry mill, 5 ft by 10 ft bed (!!!), NJ Haas.
Will really make my miserable life a bit less miserable. Am keeping the
fadal, for the small stuff.
The Haas may double as my bedroom.

I can't help you much there. I haven't had any dealings with Haas for
over 10 years. Gene Haas used to push his salesmen really hard for
volume; they were tough competitors who didn't like to lose a sale.

Did jail soften him up any??

g I haven't talked to Gene himself since before he was convicted. I
dealt with his marketing people for an article around 12 years ago,
but nothing since.


Any visible tattoos.... like on the knuckes.....?? LOL



Yeah, I kinda blew the December "deadline" ito bookkeeping, inventory, and
all that, but they were so busy anyway.
Not a popular machine, but I think it's an undiscovered gem, for many
applications.

And I don't know routers. All I can suggest is that patience is your
best weapon. If possible, don't sell yourself on their machine. Get
one or two competitors lined up. You don't want to be sitting there
waiting to be romanced by one builder.

First, this is not really a router, cuz the spindle speed isn't high enough.
It is, imo, an open VMC, a bit less rigid than a typical vmc. Standard Haas
control and all.
Next, there are plenty of other gantry machines, if you want them 50 ft
long, and 5x the price.

I don't know of any other competitors in this price range. Actually, I did
find similarly sized machines, but MUCH beefier, more expensive, etc.
Forgot the names, but bottom line is, unless I went the woodworking route
(which is what I was exploring, to then modify), I don't know what else is
out there.

Check Techspex.com. You can sign up for free. Search for routers, even
if Haas doesn't call theirs a router.

I'd say to also look for gantry mills, but I don't know if there are
any others in this light-machine category you're looking for. You're
more likely to find a router with a milling head, which is what I'm
guessing the Haas machine is.




Good luck!

As perhaps the world's worst bidnissman, I'll need it.

Be patient. Rushing into it will get you royally screwed.

--
Ed Huntress