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Electronics Repair (sci.electronics.repair) Discussion of repairing electronic equipment. Topics include requests for assistance, where to obtain servicing information and parts, techniques for diagnosis and repair, and annecdotes about success, failures and problems. |
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#1
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Do you think splicing 100' of wire onto a GTO exit wand would work?
I bought too short of a driveway-gate exit wand (GTO FM139 = 50 feet); I
need 150 feet. Nobody told me (so I'm saying it here), one really needs about 150 feet if they want the driveway gate to be open by the time the moving mass of metal (i.e., automobile) reaches the gate. Lesson learned. Researching the web, it appears GTO sells three wands: http://www.gtopro.com/access_controls.htm - FM139 = 50 feet wired (about $180) - FM140 = 100 feet wired (about $200) - FM141 = 150 feet wired (about $225) The instructions say you can not splice additional lengths (http://www.gtopro.com/PDF/Flyers/Gat...cle-sensor.pdf ) Calling www.gtopro.com technical support at 800-543-4283, they say there is no difference between the wands or the wire other than the length BUT if I splice in a wire, it won't work. The technical support guy was very helpful. He said the reason it won't work is that the "sensitivity of the magnetic field" changes with the splice. I don't understand why (if I make a good splice) but maybe there is something about magnetic fields I don't understand that you can elucidate for me? The wire is 5 conductor 16awg multi-strand shielded. What is it about a splice that destroys the magnetic field? |
#2
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Do you think splicing 100' of wire onto a GTO exit wand would work?
One thing is shielding of the splice...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday_cage Then other than that, the wire length might have a certain *total* resistance or *total* capacitance and this is adjusted for at the wand or at the adjustment for the wand. This principal might be along the lines of adjusting a CB antenna like it says here (length of the antenna matters)... http://www.wearecb.com/support/setcbantenna.htm "Elmo" wrote in message I bought too short of a driveway-gate exit wand (GTO FM139 = 50 feet); I need 150 feet. Nobody told me (so I'm saying it here), one really needs about 150 feet if they want the driveway gate to be open by the time the moving mass of metal (i.e., automobile) reaches the gate. Lesson learned. Researching the web, it appears GTO sells three wands: http://www.gtopro.com/access_controls.htm - FM139 = 50 feet wired (about $180) - FM140 = 100 feet wired (about $200) - FM141 = 150 feet wired (about $225) The instructions say you can not splice additional lengths (http://www.gtopro.com/PDF/Flyers/Gat...cle-sensor.pdf ) Calling www.gtopro.com technical support at 800-543-4283, they say there is no difference between the wands or the wire other than the length BUT if I splice in a wire, it won't work. The technical support guy was very helpful. He said the reason it won't work is that the "sensitivity of the magnetic field" changes with the splice. I don't understand why (if I make a good splice) but maybe there is something about magnetic fields I don't understand that you can elucidate for me? The wire is 5 conductor 16awg multi-strand shielded. What is it about a splice that destroys the magnetic field? |
#3
Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.electronics.repair
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Do you think splicing 100' of wire onto a GTO exit wand would work?
The technical support guy was very helpful. He said the
reason it won't work is that the "sensitivity of the magnetic field" changes with the splice. On the face of it, this is a pile of manure. It's possible (as someone else said) that the system might be calibrated for specific cable lengths, and it might be difficult to splice the wire in such a way as to maintain the desired electrical characteristics. But an amateur antenna system has at least two "splices" in it -- one at the transmitter, the other at the antenna -- and it works fine. If the folks running the company are "nice" people, they should take back the too-short cable -- even though it's been used -- and give you full credit towards a cable of the right length. |
#4
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Do you think splicing 100' of wire onto a GTO exit wand would work?
In article , Elmo wrote:
I bought too short of a driveway-gate exit wand (GTO FM139 = 50 feet); I need 150 feet. Nobody told me (so I'm saying it here), one really needs about 150 feet if they want the driveway gate to be open by the time the moving mass of metal (i.e., automobile) reaches the gate. Lesson learned. Researching the web, it appears GTO sells three wands: http://www.gtopro.com/access_controls.htm - FM139 = 50 feet wired (about $180) - FM140 = 100 feet wired (about $200) - FM141 = 150 feet wired (about $225) The instructions say you can not splice additional lengths (http://www.gtopro.com/PDF/Flyers/Gat...9-vehicle-sens or.pdf ) Calling www.gtopro.com technical support at 800-543-4283, they say there is no difference between the wands or the wire other than the length BUT if I splice in a wire, it won't work. The technical support guy was very helpful. He said the reason it won't work is that the "sensitivity of the magnetic field" changes with the splice. I don't understand why (if I make a good splice) but maybe there is something about magnetic fields I don't understand that you can elucidate for me? The wire is 5 conductor 16awg multi-strand shielded. What is it about a splice that destroys the magnetic field? First thing, how do you get IN ???? Second thing, try an additional 5-10 feet and see if there is something other than ?? Whats the connector look like ?? greg |
#5
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Do you think splicing 100' of wire onto a GTO exit wand wouldwork?
On Feb 1, 10:15*am, Elmo dcdraftwo...@Use-Author-Supplied-
Address.invalid wrote: I bought too short of a driveway-gate exit wand (GTO FM139 = 50 feet); I need 150 feet. Nobody told me (so I'm saying it here), one really needs about 150 feet if they want the driveway gate to be open by the time the moving mass of metal (i.e., automobile) reaches the gate. Lesson learned. Researching the web, it appears GTO sells three wands:http://www.gtopro.com/access_controls.htm - FM139 = 50 feet wired (about $180) - FM140 = 100 feet wired (about $200) - FM141 = 150 feet wired (about $225) The instructions say you can not splice additional lengths (http://www.gtopro.com/PDF/Flyers/Gat...trol-FM139-veh... ) Callingwww.gtopro.comtechnical support at 800-543-4283, they say there is no difference between the wands or the wire other than the length BUT if I splice in a wire, it won't work. The technical support guy was very helpful. He said the reason it won't work is that the "sensitivity of the magnetic field" changes with the splice. I don't understand why (if I make a good splice) but maybe there is something about magnetic fields I don't understand that you can elucidate for me? The wire is 5 conductor 16awg multi-strand shielded. What is it about a splice that destroys the magnetic field? Add the required number/severity of speed bumps to force the drivers to slow down to whatever speed works for the 50 foot wand. |
#6
Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.electronics.repair
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Do you think splicing 100' of wire onto a GTO exit wand wouldwork?
On 2/1/2010 12:53 PM, GregS wrote:
In , wrote: I bought too short of a driveway-gate exit wand (GTO FM139 = 50 feet); I need 150 feet. Nobody told me (so I'm saying it here), one really needs about 150 feet if they want the driveway gate to be open by the time the moving mass of metal (i.e., automobile) reaches the gate. Lesson learned. Researching the web, it appears GTO sells three wands: http://www.gtopro.com/access_controls.htm - FM139 = 50 feet wired (about $180) - FM140 = 100 feet wired (about $200) - FM141 = 150 feet wired (about $225) The instructions say you can not splice additional lengths (http://www.gtopro.com/PDF/Flyers/Gat...9-vehicle-sens or.pdf ) Calling www.gtopro.com technical support at 800-543-4283, they say there is no difference between the wands or the wire other than the length BUT if I splice in a wire, it won't work. The technical support guy was very helpful. He said the reason it won't work is that the "sensitivity of the magnetic field" changes with the splice. I don't understand why (if I make a good splice) but maybe there is something about magnetic fields I don't understand that you can elucidate for me? The wire is 5 conductor 16awg multi-strand shielded. What is it about a splice that destroys the magnetic field? First thing, how do you get IN ???? They didn't say they couldn't get any but that the gate didn't open fast enough for the speed they were driving. Obviously one solution might be to go a little slower. Second thing, try an additional 5-10 feet and see if there is something other than ?? Whats the connector look like ?? greg |
#7
Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.electronics.repair
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Do you think splicing 100' of wire onto a GTO exit wand wouldwork?
In article , George wrote:
On 2/1/2010 12:53 PM, GregS wrote: In , wrote: I bought too short of a driveway-gate exit wand (GTO FM139 = 50 feet); I need 150 feet. Nobody told me (so I'm saying it here), one really needs about 150 feet if they want the driveway gate to be open by the time the moving mass of metal (i.e., automobile) reaches the gate. Lesson learned. Researching the web, it appears GTO sells three wands: http://www.gtopro.com/access_controls.htm - FM139 = 50 feet wired (about $180) - FM140 = 100 feet wired (about $200) - FM141 = 150 feet wired (about $225) The instructions say you can not splice additional lengths (http://www.gtopro.com/PDF/Flyers/Gat...39-vehicle-sen s or.pdf ) Calling www.gtopro.com technical support at 800-543-4283, they say there is no difference between the wands or the wire other than the length BUT if I splice in a wire, it won't work. The technical support guy was very helpful. He said the reason it won't work is that the "sensitivity of the magnetic field" changes with the splice. I don't understand why (if I make a good splice) but maybe there is something about magnetic fields I don't understand that you can elucidate for me? The wire is 5 conductor 16awg multi-strand shielded. What is it about a splice that destroys the magnetic field? First thing, how do you get IN ???? They didn't say they couldn't get any but that the gate didn't open fast enough for the speed they were driving. Obviously one solution might be to go a little slower. This is for exit only. I asked how do they get in, thinking any decent gate will have a remote control. Go through same procedure as to get in, push button. !!!! That RF is a usefull thing !!! Remote control !!! A magnetic sensor is usefull to prevent closing the gate and hitting car. greg Second thing, try an additional 5-10 feet and see if there is something other than ?? Whats the connector look like ?? greg |
#8
Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.electronics.repair
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Do you think splicing 100' of wire onto a GTO exit wand would work?
On Mon, 1 Feb 2010 15:15:51 +0000 (UTC), Elmo
wrote: What is it about a splice that destroys the magnetic field? I know that when my girlfriend got spliced, it destroyed our magnetic field. Seriously, I'm a 3 or 4 out of 10 on electronics knowledge, not even a skilled amateur, but this reminds me of "No user-serviceable parts inside". It depends on who the user is. I even saw that on a Black & Decker tire pump, on the plug for the cigarette lighter. I drilled out the rivets, replaced a burned-out fuse, and it's worked fine for 10 years now. The product you write about seems intended for corporations and rich people. I'll bet it's a way to squeeze another 150 dollars out of you. (They won't exchange what you bought for the longer one because you buried yours already and it's dirty?) Oh, yeah, the technician might even believe what he told you even if I'm right. It would be easier to do a nice splice if you offset the individual splices an inch or so from each other. To the other people here, any reason he can't use one sheet of alimumim foil to shield everything all at once. If you're burying it when you're done, silicone tape, I think it's called, is even better than heat-shrink tubing and doesn't slip on, it wraps on. Stretch it to 2 or 3 times its length, then wrap while streched and within a few days it merges into one big probably waterproof blob. Hard to find though. |
#9
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Do you think splicing 100' of wire onto a GTO exit wand would work?
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#10
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Do you think splicing 100' of wire onto a GTO exit wand would work?
On Mon, 01 Feb 2010 17:53:54 GMT, GregS wrote:
First thing, how do you get IN ???? Whats the connector look like ?? There is a keypad to get in, and a remote. Both work fine for the owner of the house, but not for guests. Guests enter via the outside-the-gate intercom keypad. But the gate closes 25 seconds after being opened. When guests leave, the exit wand triggers the gate to open. |
#11
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Do you think splicing 100' of wire onto a GTO exit wand would work?
On Mon, 01 Feb 2010 17:53:54 GMT, GregS wrote:
Whats the connector look like ?? There is no connector. Each of the four 16 AWG multi-stranded wires arrives from the factory stripped of about 1/4 inch at the ends and tinned solid. We just screw those four wires plus the shield into connections on the gate opener motherboard. |
#12
Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.electronics.repair
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Do you think splicing 100' of wire onto a GTO exit wand would work?
On Mon, 01 Feb 2010 19:47:16 GMT, GregS wrote:
That RF is a usefull thing !!! Remote control !!! Guests won't have a remote control nor will they have the keypad combination. |
#13
Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.electronics.repair
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Do you think splicing 100' of wire onto a GTO exit wand would work?
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#14
Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.electronics.repair
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Do you think splicing 100' of wire onto a GTO exit wand would work?
On Mon, 1 Feb 2010 15:15:51 +0000 (UTC), Elmo
wrote: I bought too short of a driveway-gate exit wand (GTO FM139 = 50 feet); I need 150 feet. Nobody told me (so I'm saying it here), one really needs about 150 feet if they want the driveway gate to be open by the time the moving mass of metal (i.e., automobile) reaches the gate. Lesson learned. I suppose it's too late to exchange the exit wand. Researching the web, it appears GTO sells three wands: http://www.gtopro.com/access_controls.htm - FM139 = 50 feet wired (about $180) - FM140 = 100 feet wired (about $200) - FM141 = 150 feet wired (about $225) The instructions say you can not splice additional lengths (http://www.gtopro.com/PDF/Flyers/Gat...cle-sensor.pdf Yep. For good reason. The contraption belches RF somewhere between 20Khz and 150Khz and is similar to the vehicle detectors used for traffic signal control. The mass of the vehicle detunes the coil resulting in an increase in oscillator gate(?) current. In other words, the whole mess, including the cable, is part of a resonant circuit. If you were able to rip apart the tube, you'll probably find an iron core, with a zillion turns of wires wrapped around it. There will also be a tuning capacitor, which is the key problem. Each length of cable will have a different tuning capacitor, where the difference in lengths is roughly equal to the difference in capacitance. These differences are compensated by the internal tuning cap. If you're lucky, they may have jumpers inside to select different cable lengths. If the designer is really cool, the capacitor might be inside the controller. You might be able to get some clues if there are any patent numbers of FCC ID numbers on the devices. I couldn't find anything registered to "Gates That Open". Calling www.gtopro.com technical support at 800-543-4283, they say there is no difference between the wands or the wire other than the length BUT if I splice in a wire, it won't work. They may be right. 100ft of untwisted parallel cheezy wire is good for about 500pf or so. That's quite a bit and will seriously affect the resonant frequency of the wand. However, if the support droid is telling the truth, then there should be a jumper or adjustment inside the controller box for different lengths of cable. The manuals are useless. So, you get to rip it open. Learn By Destroying(tm). The technical support guy was very helpful. He said the reason it won't work is that the "sensitivity of the magnetic field" changes with the splice. Baloney. Well, maybe 50% baloney. The resonant frequency will change, and therefore, so will the sensitivity. I don't understand why (if I make a good splice) but maybe there is something about magnetic fields I don't understand that you can elucidate for me? The wire is 5 conductor 16awg multi-strand shielded. It's not the splice. It's the added capacitance wrecking the resonance. What is it about a splice that destroys the magnetic field? Nope. -- # Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060 # 831-336-2558 # http://802.11junk.com # http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS |
#15
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Do you think splicing 100' of wire onto a GTO exit wand would work?
On Mon, 01 Feb 2010 23:08:04 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote: The instructions say you can not splice additional lengths (http://www.gtopro.com/PDF/Flyers/Gat...cle-sensor.pdf Yep. For good reason. The contraption belches RF somewhere between 20Khz and 150Khz and is similar to the vehicle detectors used for traffic signal control. The mass of the vehicle detunes the coil resulting in an increase in oscillator gate(?) current. In other words, the whole mess, including the cable, is part of a resonant circuit. Ok, I lied. It's not the added capacitance. It's the added inductance of the 100ft of feed cable. The destructions for a different type of loop at: http://www.hooverfence.com/gtopro/manual/loopdt1-manual.pdf show an inductance of 0.22 microhenries per foot for the connecting cable (presumably the same cable for both types of loops). That's quite a bit of added inductance. I'm guessing, but it looks like the target value for the loop and cable feed is about 100 microhenries. Either way, adding the 100ft of cable is not going to work. -- # Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060 # 831-336-2558 # http://802.11junk.com # http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS |
#16
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Do you think splicing 100' of wire onto a GTO exit wand would work?
On Mon, 01 Feb 2010 23:21:31 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote: Ok, I lied. It's not the added capacitance. It's the added inductance of the 100ft of feed cable. The destructions for a different type of loop at: http://www.hooverfence.com/gtopro/manual/loopdt1-manual.pdf show an inductance of 0.22 microhenries per foot for the connecting cable (presumably the same cable for both types of loops). That's quite a bit of added inductance. I'm guessing, but it looks like the target value for the loop and cable feed is about 100 microhenries. Looks like the oscillation frequency is dependent on the loop inductance. I (wrongly) assumed it was a fixed frequency (to make the FCC happy). That means you could probably extend the cable feed and all that will happen is that the oscillation frequency will be drastically lowered. I don't know if that's going to cause a problem with whatever they use for a detector, but it just might work. However, if the new lower frequency causes airplanes to fall out of sky, I suggest you instead purchase the correct exit sensor. -- # Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060 # 831-336-2558 # http://802.11junk.com # http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS |
#17
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Do you think splicing 100' of wire onto a GTO exit wand would work?
On Tue, 2 Feb 2010 05:56:54 +0000 (UTC), Elmo
wrote: On Mon, 01 Feb 2010 17:53:54 GMT, GregS wrote: Whats the connector look like ?? There is no connector. Each of the four 16 AWG multi-stranded wires arrives from the factory stripped of about 1/4 inch at the ends and tinned solid. We just screw those four wires plus the shield into connections on the gate opener motherboard. The simple answer is just try it! What do you loose, a few minutes of time? That said, just make sure your splice is absolutely waterproof. 3M makes underground splice kits that may work (used primarily for telco work). |
#18
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Do you think splicing 100' of wire onto a GTO exit wand would work?
Why has no one paid attention to my suggestion?
Get the manufacturer to give you full credit towards a longer cable. |
#19
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Do you think splicing 100' of wire onto a GTO exit wand would work?
On Tue, 02 Feb 2010 08:39:31 -0500, PeterD wrote:
just make sure your splice is absolutely waterproof. 3M makes underground splice kits that may work I have to find the 4-wire multi-stranded shielded cable first ... but I will try the splice kit at the same time if I can find that also. This morning I called GTO technical support again at 800-543-1236 and spoke this time with a woman with a southern accent who told me a splice could be done, but she said the problem is that it will eventually break. And, since it will be underground, I won't know where it is and I'll be calling technical support who won't know that it was spliced while they troubleshoot. When I asked "but CAN it be spliced?", she confirmed there is no difference in the wand itself between the longer lengths of wire as the sensitivity adjustments are done on the gate control board itself. I'll look for that 3M waterproof splice kit. I think I'll need a low-voltage splice kit. According to this web site, the voltage is 8 to 32 VAC or 8 to 26 VDC with a miniscule current of 1.5ma. http://www.allsecurityequipment.com/...prod=GTO-FM141 |
#20
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Do you think splicing 100' of wire onto a GTO exit wand would work?
On Mon, 01 Feb 2010 23:08:04 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
I suppose it's too late to exchange the exit wand. I'm checking up on this right now. |
#21
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Do you think splicing 100' of wire onto a GTO exit wand would work?
On Tue, 2 Feb 2010 05:43:51 -0800, William Sommerwerck wrote:
Get the manufacturer to give you full credit towards a longer cable. Once it's installed, they won't do that. |
#22
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Do you think splicing 100' of wire onto a GTO exit wand would work?
On Tue, 02 Feb 2010 08:39:31 -0500, PeterD wrote:
3M makes underground splice kits that may work (used primarily for telco work). Great idea! If it works for the telephone company, it should work here. On the 3M web site, I found a splice kit for 3-conductor "armored" cable, but not 4 conductor (and it was for 10-14 AWG, not 16AWG). Here's the product information from: http://tinyurl.com/ybrgmlf http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3...G CC8VFQJBCgl - 3M„˘ 3/C Low Voltage Splice Kit 5730, 14-10 AWG (UPC 00054007431718). - These kits are applicable for indoor and outdoor installations, - including direct burial, aerial and submersible applications. - This kit requires 1 roll of 3M„˘ Armorcast„˘ Structural Material. Do you think I can find a 4-conductor shielded 16 AWG cable splice kit at ACE, OSH, or Home Depot? (I'll try later today.) |
#23
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Do you think splicing 100' of wire onto a GTO exit wand would work?
On Mon, 01 Feb 2010 19:31:47 -0500, mm wrote:
Oh, yeah, the technician might even believe what he told you even if I'm right. I think the technicians have to say what's in the manual: http://www.gtopro.com/PDF/Manuals/GT...l-pro-wand.pdf On Page 2 of that PDF installation manual, it says: - The Wand cable CANNOT be spliced. - If you need more wire, contact the GTO Sales Department at 800-543-GATE. When I called the GTO Sales Department, they said the only solution was to buy a new exit wand with a longer feed. They said all the exit wands are different (contrary to what the technicians told me at the support number). |
#24
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Do you think splicing 100' of wire onto a GTO exit wand would work?
On Mon, 01 Feb 2010 19:31:47 -0500, mm wrote:
If you're burying it when you're done, silicone tape, I think it's called, is even better than heat-shrink tubing and doesn't slip on, it wraps on. I did find 3M silicone tape for splicing cable here http://tinyurl.com/ya5sob2 http://rock.thomasnet.com/item/elect...82-a3?&seo=110 So now the problem just is finding the 4-conductor 16AWG shielded cable and the 3M splice kit in a store somewhere around here. |
#26
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Do you think splicing 100' of wire onto a GTO exit wand wouldwork?
On Feb 2, 7:34*am, Elmo dcdraftwo...@Use-Author-Supplied-
Address.invalid wrote: On Mon, 01 Feb 2010 19:31:47 -0500, mm wrote: If you're burying it when you're done, silicone tape, I think it's called, is even better than heat-shrink tubing and doesn't slip on, it wraps on. I did find 3M silicone tape for splicing cable herehttp://tinyurl.com/ya5sob2http://rock.thomasnet.com/item/electronics-cables/3m-82-a-series-wate.... So now the problem just is finding the 4-conductor 16AWG shielded cable and the 3M splice kit in a store somewhere around here. You originally said 5 conductor, now you say 4 conductor. ?? |
#27
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Do you think splicing 100' of wire onto a GTO exit wand would work?
mm writes:
If you're burying it when you're done, silicone tape, I think it's called, is even better than heat-shrink tubing and doesn't slip on, it wraps on. Stretch it to 2 or 3 times its length, then wrap while streched and within a few days it merges into one big probably waterproof blob. Hard to find though. HD has it in several locations in our local stores (plumbing and maybe also electrical areas) - may be hard to find cuz most people don't know about it. |
#28
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Do you think splicing 100' of wire onto a GTO exit wand would work?
On Tue, 02 Feb 2010 16:33:19 GMT, GregS wrote:
You must have many guests and visitors to warrent this setup you have, I think it's the "typical" setup to have a way for guests to leave. You have to note that I considered wiring a push-button (doorbell type) switch in the house to open the gate for guests to leave but I can't even see the gate from the house since it's about 500 feet down a hill to the gate - so that would be a safety problem. I guess I should walk everyone to the gate but that seems like a lot to ask of me. But I think most people have the following bare minimums and common electronics. BARE MINIMUM ELECTRONICS: - Keypad & remote open (with automatic close) - Stall force setting so nobody gets crushed EXTREMELY COMMON ELECTRONICS: - Intercom for convenient entrance of guests - Exit wand for automatic open upon exit SPECIALTY ELECTRONICS: - Telephone-operated gates (open/close from your cell phone) - Video feeds on the gates (so you can see who is at the gate) |
#29
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Do you think splicing 100' of wire onto a GTO exit wand would work?
On Tue, 2 Feb 2010 15:34:00 +0000 (UTC), Elmo
wrote: On Mon, 01 Feb 2010 19:31:47 -0500, mm wrote: If you're burying it when you're done, silicone tape, I think it's called, is even better than heat-shrink tubing and doesn't slip on, it wraps on. I did find 3M silicone tape for splicing cable here http://tinyurl.com/ya5sob2 http://rock.thomasnet.com/item/elect...82-a3?&seo=110 I've only used the tape. I've never used, or even seen, the kit. Hadn't even heard of a kit with resin before. So now the problem just is finding the 4-conductor 16AWG shielded cable and the 3M splice kit in a store somewhere around here. |
#30
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Do you think splicing 100' of wire onto a GTO exit wand would work?
On Tue, 02 Feb 2010 12:14:22 -0500, blueman wrote:
mm writes: If you're burying it when you're done, silicone tape, I think it's called, is even better than heat-shrink tubing and doesn't slip on, it wraps on. Stretch it to 2 or 3 times its length, then wrap while streched and within a few days it merges into one big probably waterproof blob. Hard to find though. HD has it in several locations in our local stores (plumbing and maybe also electrical areas) - may be hard to find cuz most people don't know about it. It seems we are talking about -- at least that's what's included in his kit -- "Scotch 23 High Voltage Tape"**, but when I search on that at the Home Depot site, I get 2 hits, regular vinyl electrical tape and packaging tape. When I search on "Scotch 23", I don't get anything. Now HD and Lowes have the worst webpages I've come across, so maybe that doesn't mean anything. The one easily visible thing I've noticed about this tape is that it is wound on a white plastic spool, instead of a cardboard spool. It's thick and has a backing layer that has to be removed to use a piece. Are we talking about the same thing? Do they really have it at HD. I looked years ago but couldnt' find it. It's expensive. I think I paid 11 or 12 dollars a roll, but it's great for special uses. **Other listings for this tape call it self-fusing. That probably refers to what I said about merging into a big blob. Other descriptions make reference to the polyester liner, the backing layer. But so far, I've found little reference to how it is to be applied. Just one line "Physical and electrical properties are unaffected by the degree of stretch." and I don't see how that is even true. OF course if it is stretched to thee times its length and it's 2/3rds thinner, it's going to have lower strength and electrical insulating qualities. They even have a chart about that on page 3 of the same data sheet. http://www.cablejoints.co.uk/upload/...ber_Tape. pdf Self-amalgamating they call it here. BTW, if you don't stretch it, it won't stick to what's underneath it. There is no adhesive on the tape. |
#31
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Do you think splicing 100' of wire onto a GTO exit wand would work?
On Tue, 2 Feb 2010 08:34:56 -0800 (PST), Robert Macy wrote:
So now the problem just is finding the 4-conductor 16AWG shielded cable and the 3M splice kit in a store somewhere around here. You originally said 5 conductor, now you say 4 conductor. ?? There are actually 5 connections, but one of them is the shield which I don't think the 3M product handles. The 5 connections are at the gate control box but only 4 insulated wires are inside the wire. The installation instructions for the exit wand tell you to twist the end of the fifth shield together and wire nut it to the battery. The 4-conductor plus 1 shield wiring instructions are listed in this PDF. http://www.mightymule.com/PDF/Manual...xit-Sensor.pdf In hind sight, I should have gone wireless. That way I could have put the sensor anywhere I like. |
#32
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Do you think splicing 100' of wire onto a GTO exit wand would work?
On Tue, 02 Feb 2010 12:14:22 -0500, blueman wrote:
mm writes: If you're burying it when you're done, silicone tape HD has it in several locations in our local stores (plumbing and maybe also electrical areas) - may be hard to find cuz most people don't know about it. I'll go to Home Depot today and let us know what I find. In hind sight, I should have bought the WIRELESS vehicle exit sensor setup! http://www.mightymule.com/PDF/Manual...xit-Sensor.pdf |
#33
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Do you think splicing 100' of wire onto a GTO exit wand wouldwork?
On 2/2/2010 1:30 PM, Elmo wrote:
On Tue, 02 Feb 2010 16:33:19 GMT, GregS wrote: You must have many guests and visitors to warrent this setup you have, I think it's the "typical" setup to have a way for guests to leave. You have to note that I considered wiring a push-button (doorbell type) switch in the house to open the gate for guests to leave but I can't even see the gate from the house since it's about 500 feet down a hill to the gate - so that would be a safety problem. I guess I should walk everyone to the gate but that seems like a lot to ask of me. But I think most people have the following bare minimums and common electronics. BARE MINIMUM ELECTRONICS: - Keypad& remote open (with automatic close) - Stall force setting so nobody gets crushed EXTREMELY COMMON ELECTRONICS: - Intercom for convenient entrance of guests - Exit wand for automatic open upon exit SPECIALTY ELECTRONICS: - Telephone-operated gates (open/close from your cell phone) - Video feeds on the gates (so you can see who is at the gate) Or maybe you simply tell your departing guests "slow down when near the gate and wait for it to open"? I have been to a number of places where the gate works as I described. |
#34
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Do you think splicing 100' of wire onto a GTO exit wand wouldwork?
On 2/2/2010 8:43 AM, William Sommerwerck wrote:
Why has no one paid attention to my suggestion? Get the manufacturer to give you full credit towards a longer cable. Why? They OP decided to buy the particular length and didn't indicate they were misled. |
#35
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Do you think splicing 100' of wire onto a GTO exit wand would work?
On Tue, 2 Feb 2010 18:37:48 +0000 (UTC), Elmo
wrote: On Tue, 2 Feb 2010 08:34:56 -0800 (PST), Robert Macy wrote: So now the problem just is finding the 4-conductor 16AWG shielded cable and the 3M splice kit in a store somewhere around here. You originally said 5 conductor, now you say 4 conductor. ?? There are actually 5 connections, but one of them is the shield which I don't think the 3M product handles. The 5 connections are at the gate control box but only 4 insulated wires are inside the wire. The installation instructions for the exit wand tell you to twist the end of the fifth shield together and wire nut it to the battery. So the wires aren't individually shielded, you're saying? So now I'm thinking just about any four conductor wire, stranded so it will be sufficiently flexible, will be enough. 16 gauge would be nice, but I wouldnt' be too surprised if it worked with almost any gauge. What say you, techno guys? Is the shielding foil or woven wires? Oh, it says, braided metal wire. Can't you solder new shielding to that Either way, for shielding, can't he just put the splice in some sort of metal tube, a little longer than the splice, connected at one or both ends to the shielding of the cable. If they say this will work test it before you bury it. Wave the wand over a car, at the right distance, instead of making the car drive over it. Wait a while to see if tv or radio stations make the gate open when no one is there. That doesn't seem very likely to me. check if someone with a metal wheelbarrow can open the gate, but I woudlnt' be too surprised if that would be true with a totally standard installation . Is there no sensitivity adjustment anywhere? Yes, there is. It's called potentiometer (pot). It also says "IMPORTANT: When the SENSOR is first powered up it must be undisturbed for 60 seconds to perform the self test and calibrations." So, although there is a limit I'm sure to the range of whatever needs to be calibrated, adjusted for, this means there is a range. That's probably why they don't have to make all the cables of different lengths the same. It also says this: If the SENSOR is not working: 1. Make sure the Range Adjustment is set at maximum range. 2. Disconnect the power (battery) to the SENSOR. 3. Reconnect the power to the SENSOR and make sure that no metal object or vehicle is moving around the SENSOR for 60 seconds while it is calibrating. 4. Test the SENSOR to verify that it is working properly. 5. Check that push/pull DIP switches on Control Board are set correctly. The 4-conductor plus 1 shield wiring instructions are listed in this PDF. http://www.mightymule.com/PDF/Manual...xit-Sensor.pdf In hind sight, I should have gone wireless. That way I could have put the sensor anywhere I like. |
#36
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Do you think splicing 100' of wire onto a GTO exit wand would work?
On Tue, 02 Feb 2010 16:33:19 GMT, (GregS)
wrote: In article , Elmo wrote: On Mon, 01 Feb 2010 20:16:20 -0500, wrote: Could be like the gate at a corporate site I occasionally visit - for entry, you speak to a guard and show ID via a TV camera and the guard opens the gate. A device like the one in this thread is used to allow people to exit the gate. Yes. The "typical" gate setup is: 1a. Owner approaches gate and flips remote control to get in. 1b. Utility truck approaches gate and pushed their logged 4-digit combo on the digital keypad to get in (whether or not someone is home) 1c. Guest arrives and has to press the intercom button and can only be let in if someone inside the house provides them access. Guest then pushes a button on the keypad to open the gate. 2. In all cases above, the gate closes 25 seconds after it was opened. 3. In all cases above, when the owner/utility/guest leaves, the gate automatically opens for them via the exit want magnetic field disturbance sensor. At least that's how my gate is set up. Some are set up to open via cellphone but mine isn't fancy. I am familiar with only one setup. A sewage plant. The opperator Mine is similar to the one you know. It is residential, but guests have to bring some sewage to get in. controls gate open or close, and the pickup prevents the gate from ramming into the vehicle. You must have many guests and visitors to warrent this setup you have, greg |
#37
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Do you think splicing 100' of wire onto a GTO exit wand would work?
On Mon, 01 Feb 2010 23:08:04 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote: Researching the web, it appears GTO sells three wands: http://www.gtopro.com/access_controls.htm - FM139 = 50 feet wired (about $180) - FM140 = 100 feet wired (about $200) - FM141 = 150 feet wired (about $225) When I read the 50 foot price, I thought it was 100 dollars, not 180. I thought 125 for another 100 feet was much too much, but it's only a 45 dollar difference. |
#38
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Do you think splicing 100' of wire onto a GTO exit wand would work?
Get the manufacturer to give you full credit towards a longer cable.
Why? They OP decided to buy the particular length and didn't indicate they were misled. True. But the cabling is not horribly expensive. The company should do this out of "common courtesy". |
#39
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Do you think splicing 100' of wire onto a GTO exit wand would work?
Be sure to let us know how this turns out. You owe us. More below. On Tue, 2 Feb 2010 15:07:32 +0000 (UTC), Elmo wrote: On Tue, 02 Feb 2010 08:39:31 -0500, PeterD wrote: just make sure your splice is absolutely waterproof. 3M makes underground splice kits that may work I have to find the 4-wire multi-stranded shielded cable first ... but I will try the splice kit at the same time if I can find that also. This morning I called GTO technical support again at 800-543-1236 and spoke this time with a woman with a southern accent who told me a splice could be done, but she said the problem is that it will eventually break. And, since No, it won't. Not if it's soldered correctly. Have you soldered much? Do you know how to solder well, to clean the wire first -- I just scrape four sides of the wire with a fairly sharp knife --, use flux core solder designed for electrical work, and make it hot enough to not get a cold solder joint? it will be underground, I won't know where it is and I'll be calling Of course you'll know where it is. It will be 50 feet from where you buried the wand. And about 100 feet from where the controller is. Note how far from the driveway you bury it and measure how far from thecontroller it is, and write it down and tape it to the controller box. technical support who won't know that it was spliced while they troubleshoot. The next owner might well be in that situation. Make sure you leave clear documentation for him. The guy who sold me my house spent an hour teling me things about it. When I asked "but CAN it be spliced?", she confirmed there is no difference in the wand itself between the longer lengths of wire as the sensitivity adjustments are done on the gate control board itself. As I thought in some other post of mine. I'll look for that 3M waterproof splice kit. I think I'll need a low-voltage splice kit. Anything that works for high voltages works for low voltages. I'm not sure what the advantage of the kit is. Certainly if I couldn't find the kit, I'd just wrap the self-fusing tape around the wire, going an inch or more past the splice, past the part where the original insulation is still intact. My neighbor had some semi-skilled guys putting in a small fence and they cut my phone line. Of course they "took repsonsibilty" and they were winding the wires together and taping them with standard electric tape. I came out and stopped them, and soldered the connections and wrapped them in this self-fusing tape, and even when I had dial-up internet, I got very good connection speeds. Later, someone told me I should let the phone company repair it and indeed they would do it for free, but the guy on the phone said all they do is use those gel-filled connectors and what I did was better. Nothing beats solder, and no tape beats Scotch 23. Now, if you don't have an connector on the end of the wire, you could use heat-shrink tubing, but though it looks real nice, it doesn't have much tension when shrinking or afterwareds, and I think the scotch 23, silicone tape will do a much better job. According to this web site, the voltage is 8 to 32 VAC or 8 to 26 VDC with a miniscule current of 1.5ma. http://www.allsecurityequipment.com/...prod=GTO-FM141 BTW, are you near powerlines? Most places aren't but a few are. |
#40
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Do you think splicing 100' of wire onto a GTO exit wand would work?
On Tue, 2 Feb 2010 15:26:21 +0000 (UTC), Elmo
wrote: On Tue, 02 Feb 2010 08:39:31 -0500, PeterD wrote: 3M makes underground splice kits that may work (used primarily for telco work). Great idea! If it works for the telephone company, it should work here. No. Soldering is better. The phone company doesn't want to spend the time it takes to solder each connection, up to hundreds a day, and it has a staff to go fix problems when they develop, as well as electronic tools to find the break in a wire, by injecting a signal at one end if necessary. And if you plan to use the gel connectors they use, that might require practice too to learn to do them right, and maybe also a special pair of pliers. I'm not sure, but I know you've never done it before. On the 3M web site, I found a splice kit for 3-conductor "armored" cable, but not 4 conductor (and it was for 10-14 AWG, not 16AWG). Here's the product information from: http://tinyurl.com/ybrgmlf http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3...G CC8VFQJBCgl - 3M™ 3/C Low Voltage Splice Kit 5730, 14-10 AWG (UPC 00054007431718). - These kits are applicable for indoor and outdoor installations, - including direct burial, aerial and submersible applications. - This kit requires 1 roll of 3M™ Armorcast™ Structural Material. I don't know what "3M™ Armorcast™ Structural Material" is, but it's not for you. You also don't have armored cable. Do you think I can find a 4-conductor shielded 16 AWG cable splice kit at ACE, OSH, or Home Depot? (I'll try later today.) I've never heard of a kit being designed for a certain number of conductors, unless maybe they're talking about some special way to splice all 3 conductors at the same time. There's no need to do that. For one thing, you'd need some machine costing thousands to solder more than one connection at the same time, and any other kind of connection is inferior. Just solder and tape each connection yourself, one at a time. By offsetting the splices, as I and one of the links you gave suggested, you won't have to wrap insulation around each separate solder joint. Just make sure that neither the soldered area or any of the bared wire is at the same position as any bare portion of any conductor. And make sure there are no sharp points in the solder of any conection. They could pierce the insulation. I think they only result when the solder isn't hot enough, (or maybe when there wasn't enough flux???). At any rate, you probably won't have that, or you can reheat, or cut them off with wire cutters, or wrap them separately with enough layers so it can't pierce through. Then just wrap the whole thing at one time. If it turns out that two of the uninsulated parts could touch each other, wrap one of them seaparately first. You're making this too complicated, partly because of what they told you when you first called. You need a soldering iron, solder, and tape, not a kit. BTW, when some of these sites talk about low voltage, they're talking about 110 volts and 220 volts, as opposed to 10,000 volts, which is high voltage. They're talking about currents in the range of 10 or 20 amps or more. No, much more. Look at the wire gauges they deal with in the link you provide above. 14 to 10AWG, 8-4AWG, 2-1/0, 2-0. 14 gauge will carry 15 amps, 10 gauge will carry at least 25 amps. 8 gauge at least 30 amps (probably more but I don't recall) 2 gauge must carry 100 amps and zero gauge even more. Imagine how big those wires are. That's what these kits are for, not for little wires carrying tiny currents, like a few thousandths of an amp. You otoh are dealing with much lower voltalge and much lower currents, and much lower maximum currents also. You can't even feel 12 volts and maybe you can barely feel a tingle with 24 volts, but I don't think so. |
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