Ive got an electrical issue you might have information on.

When I installed my manufactured home, I didnt want any overhead
lines, so all my utilities are buried. My meter is mounted on a
typical pedistal, with a 100 amp main, and a 20 amp used for
electrical to my shop.
http://www.pacificpower.net/File/File14724.pdf

I installed everything to code, all passed properly of course, but I
didnt put in an extra conduit or two...damnit. And the pedistal is
located about 50 feet away from the back of the home at the property
line. I did this so I could in the future, fence, and not have to have
Pacific Greed and Extortion come into the yard and deal with dogs.

There is a spare 50 amp breaker at the homes breaker panel, that used
to serve the A/C, before I converted to swamp cooler, which Ive been
using to supply power to the shop, via RPC, etc etc and also is the
sole breaker for my welding area. Its now 20+ yrs old, and as Ive
started tigging aluminum, Im running into supply issues..it pops the
breaker when I get much over 140 amps of tig welding power going. Im
sure that its weak from age and use, and needs to be replaced.

If Im going to have to expend or scrounge, its time to look at
supplying the welding area better. With only 100 amps of service at
the pedistal, Im a bit screwed, but I have to do what I can. I was
tigging an aluminum assembly (intake manifold for NO injection) for a
friend, and was popping that breaker just about the time Id get a good
bead started.

The pedistal was installed in a concrete pad, so removing it and
replacing it is going to be a PITA. I actually dont know what the amp
rating of the pedistal is, I only know there is a 100 amp breaker in
it that feeds the house. There is room for additional breakers, both
110 and 220. There are no stickers visible and Ive not pulled the
meter and the covers to check. If I recall after 20 yrs, it was a
Zodiac (?) brand

Im in an unincorporated area, so county rules (Kern) follow state regs
and are interpretted with the usual rural blind eye G

Some questions if I may be so bold...

1. How do I determing the total amp rating of the pedistal? Id hate
to melt down the buss.

2. Can I simply put in another 60 or 100 amp breaker..assuming the
buss will handle intermitant loads?

3. Would it be kosher to mount a weather tite electrical connector to
the outside of the pedistal, and run SOW over to the welding area? A
run of about 30 or so feet. I have at least that much "0" or #2 SOW
I of course would (and have done so) put a sub panel at the welding
area. I could hole punch into the breaker section and install rigid
conduit and run it over to the welding area as well. I have plenty of
sutible 4ga wire that I could run, but since the heart issue..Id
rather not be trenching by hand this time of the year espesialy.

4. Do I have to rip out everthing and in$tall a new pedi$tal, and if
$o..what would you $uggest for 200 amp $ervice, and where do I
$crounge one? I would NOT be changing the service at the home. The
100 amp main breaker has never tripped

Mine, IRRC correctly was purchased at Home Depot or similar and the
name was Zodiac or something that started with a Z. The wife has all
the manuals/docs filed someplace and she is back East for a while.

Both tig welders are rated at 100 amp, 220, and while I can run them
normally just fine with most materials..aluminum is requiring me to
draw far more power than Id normally use for any of the welding I
normally do.

I thought I had a pretty good grip on normal electrical issues, as I
had a C7-C10 for a number of years, but this is way outside of my
expertise. I dont know if its even code to tap into the pedistal above
ground. Shrug.

Thanks

Gunner

On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 20:06:20 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

Ive got an electrical issue you might have information on.

When I installed my manufactured home, I didnt want any overhead
lines, so all my utilities are buried. My meter is mounted on a
typical pedistal, with a 100 amp main, and a 20 amp used for
electrical to my shop.
http://www.pacificpower.net/File/File14724.pdf

I installed everything to code, all passed properly of course, but I
didnt put in an extra conduit or two...damnit. And the pedestal is
located about 50 feet away from the back of the home at the property
line. I did this so I could in the future, fence, and not have to have
Pacific Greed and Extortion come into the yard and deal with dogs.

There is a spare 50 amp breaker at the homes breaker panel, that used
to serve the A/C, before I converted to swamp cooler, which Ive been
using to supply power to the shop, via RPC, etc etc and also is the
sole breaker for my welding area. Its now 20+ yrs old, and as Ive
started tigging aluminum, Im running into supply issues..it pops the
breaker when I get much over 140 amps of tig welding power going. Im
sure that its weak from age and use, and needs to be replaced.

If Im going to have to expend or scrounge, its time to look at
supplying the welding area better. With only 100 amps of service at
the pedistal, Im a bit screwed, but I have to do what I can. I was
tigging an aluminum assembly (intake manifold for NO injection) for a
friend, and was popping that breaker just about the time Id get a good
bead started.

The pedistal was installed in a concrete pad, so removing it and
replacing it is going to be a PITA. I actually dont know what the amp
rating of the pedistal is, I only know there is a 100 amp breaker in
it that feeds the house. There is room for additional breakers, both
110 and 220. There are no stickers visible and Ive not pulled the
meter and the covers to check. If I recall after 20 yrs, it was a
Zodiac (?) brand

Unicorn. IIRC, they're out of business. Not too bad equipment
except for one big problem: Most of them use discontinued (read: Not
Cheap) Zinsco Type Q breakers, which is probably where that Z got
stuck in your head.

The cheap and dirty trick is to see what size wire the main lugs are
rated for - if the lugs are rated for 4/0 wire it's probably a 200A
pedestal, though I doubt it was 200A because the ped is just too
small. If it's only got 1/0 lugs it's probably only 100A, 125A if
you push it or fudge around with derating factors.

Other than that, you have to ask the utility what their incoming
feed wires are rated for. Don't try to cheat and use a ratings chart,
they deliberately cheat and undersize the AL feeder wires out to the
curb - simply because they're the Power Company and they can. ;-)

Im in an unincorporated area, so county rules (Kern) follow state regs
and are interpretted with the usual rural blind eye G

Don't count on it - most of them are really good guys, and they'll
tell you what they want to see done. But a ****ed off building
inspector can be your worst nightmare, and they can keep pulling your
chain endlessly if they really want to - and you can ignore them but
they won't go away.

You have to do what they want, smile and bear it. Because until
they sign off on the Final, they have the authority to tell Edison to
yank your meter and turn you totally off...

Some questions if I may be so bold...

1. How do I determing the total amp rating of the pedistal? Id hate
to melt down the buss.

2. Can I simply put in another 60 or 100 amp breaker..assuming the
buss will handle intermitant loads?

Probably, but check with the local utility guys. They can look and
see how big the Dilithium Crystals are inside the old pedestal.

3. Would it be kosher to mount a weather tite electrical connector to
the outside of the pedistal, and run SOW over to the welding area? A
run of about 30 or so feet. I have at least that much "0" or #2 SOW
I of course would (and have done so) put a sub panel at the welding
area. I could hole punch into the breaker section and install rigid
conduit and run it over to the welding area as well. I have plenty of
sutible 4ga wire that I could run, but since the heart issue..Id
rather not be trenching by hand this time of the year espesialy.

You could run SO cable over there, though I strongly suggest to wait
till the County Inspector signs off the work and leaves before you rig
it up. But if it's semi-permanent I'd hire some happy Green-Card
bearing laborers to dig a trench from 'here' to 'over there'. And
while the hole is open, drop in extra pipes for power and signal
wiring.

4. Do I have to rip out everthing and in$tall a new pedi$tal, and if
$o..what would you $uggest for 200 amp $ervice, and where do I
$crounge one? I would NOT be changing the service at the home. The
100 amp main breaker has never tripped

You can probably find a used 125A or 200A pedestal locally at any
"breaker broker" - they're like a junkyard, but for power panels and
switchgear. They go rip the panels from buildings being demolished
and save the useful bits for rehab and resale. Standard junkyard
policies, 25% to 50% of new price, and they usually allow for a short
warranty period if it turns out to be a dud.

Two local ones I know of:
Bernard & Sons 16123 Cohasset (east side VNY) Van Nuys CA 818/787-9303

AAA Breakers, 17646 Sherman Way, Van Nuys CA 818/708-1850

Pedestals have all the stuff in one compact package, but you'll pay
for the convenience. See http://www.milbankmfg.com (Products -
Pedestals or Products - Commercial Pedestals) if you have a broadband
connection handy - they are local.

The 200A Commercial Pedestals go in easily, I've done several.
http://www.milbankmfg.com/catalogs/C...504Singles.pdf
They even have a 3-phase version.

Or buy a new surface-mount 200A underground "All-in-one" at Home
Depot, and you can make your own mounting stand for it out of sucker
rod or big square tubing (Metalworking Content) and a chunk of 1/8"
plate for a backboard. It will look like a pile of **** in comparison
to a real pedestal, but it'll be cheap. You will either need to
concrete encase plastic conduits where they come above ground, or use
rigid and transition to plastic at ground level.

You can build it all (either the new pedestal or your makeshift one)
next to the old pedestal, and when you are ready to switch over you
rip out the old pedestal. Place a plastic handhole right over where
the old underground utility riser is, and splice the feeders. Or if
there's already an Edison handhole there, land your new conduit into
it and it's super easy.

Both tig welders are rated at 100 amp, 220, and while I can run them
normally just fine with most materials..aluminum is requiring me to
draw far more power than Id normally use for any of the welding I
normally do.

I thought I had a pretty good grip on normal electrical issues, as I
had a C7-C10 for a number of years, but this is way outside of my
expertise. I dont know if its even code to tap into the pedistal above
ground. Shrug.

Depending on the model of old pedestal, you can tap off the backside
and mount a big Hubbell-Lock pin and sleeve receptacle - but remember
not to drill through into an unfused feeder busbar (inside those two
pieces of 3/4" PVC conduit in the back corners of the breaker section)
or much excitement will soon begin...

-- Bruce--
--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.

On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 06:17:47 GMT, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:

On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 20:06:20 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

Ive got an electrical issue you might have information on.

When I installed my manufactured home, I didnt want any overhead
lines, so all my utilities are buried. My meter is mounted on a
typical pedistal, with a 100 amp main, and a 20 amp used for
electrical to my shop.
http://www.pacificpower.net/File/File14724.pdf

I installed everything to code, all passed properly of course, but I
didnt put in an extra conduit or two...damnit. And the pedestal is
located about 50 feet away from the back of the home at the property
line. I did this so I could in the future, fence, and not have to have
Pacific Greed and Extortion come into the yard and deal with dogs.

There is a spare 50 amp breaker at the homes breaker panel, that used
to serve the A/C, before I converted to swamp cooler, which Ive been
using to supply power to the shop, via RPC, etc etc and also is the
sole breaker for my welding area. Its now 20+ yrs old, and as Ive
started tigging aluminum, Im running into supply issues..it pops the
breaker when I get much over 140 amps of tig welding power going. Im
sure that its weak from age and use, and needs to be replaced.

If Im going to have to expend or scrounge, its time to look at
supplying the welding area better. With only 100 amps of service at
the pedistal, Im a bit screwed, but I have to do what I can. I was
tigging an aluminum assembly (intake manifold for NO injection) for a
friend, and was popping that breaker just about the time Id get a good
bead started.

The pedistal was installed in a concrete pad, so removing it and
replacing it is going to be a PITA. I actually dont know what the amp
rating of the pedistal is, I only know there is a 100 amp breaker in
it that feeds the house. There is room for additional breakers, both
110 and 220. There are no stickers visible and Ive not pulled the
meter and the covers to check. If I recall after 20 yrs, it was a
Zodiac (?) brand

Unicorn. IIRC, they're out of business. Not too bad equipment
except for one big problem: Most of them use discontinued (read: Not
Cheap) Zinsco Type Q breakers, which is probably where that Z got
stuck in your head.

The cheap and dirty trick is to see what size wire the main lugs are
rated for - if the lugs are rated for 4/0 wire it's probably a 200A
pedestal, though I doubt it was 200A because the ped is just too
small. If it's only got 1/0 lugs it's probably only 100A, 125A if
you push it or fudge around with derating factors.

Other than that, you have to ask the utility what their incoming
feed wires are rated for. Don't try to cheat and use a ratings chart,
they deliberately cheat and undersize the AL feeder wires out to the
curb - simply because they're the Power Company and they can. ;-)

Im in an unincorporated area, so county rules (Kern) follow state regs
and are interpretted with the usual rural blind eye G

Don't count on it - most of them are really good guys, and they'll
tell you what they want to see done. But a ****ed off building
inspector can be your worst nightmare, and they can keep pulling your
chain endlessly if they really want to - and you can ignore them but
they won't go away.

You have to do what they want, smile and bear it. Because until
they sign off on the Final, they have the authority to tell Edison to
yank your meter and turn you totally off...

Some questions if I may be so bold...

1. How do I determing the total amp rating of the pedistal? Id hate
to melt down the buss.

2. Can I simply put in another 60 or 100 amp breaker..assuming the
buss will handle intermitant loads?

Probably, but check with the local utility guys. They can look and
see how big the Dilithium Crystals are inside the old pedestal.

3. Would it be kosher to mount a weather tite electrical connector to
the outside of the pedistal, and run SOW over to the welding area? A
run of about 30 or so feet. I have at least that much "0" or #2 SOW
I of course would (and have done so) put a sub panel at the welding
area. I could hole punch into the breaker section and install rigid
conduit and run it over to the welding area as well. I have plenty of
sutible 4ga wire that I could run, but since the heart issue..Id
rather not be trenching by hand this time of the year espesialy.

You could run SO cable over there, though I strongly suggest to wait
till the County Inspector signs off the work and leaves before you rig
it up. But if it's semi-permanent I'd hire some happy Green-Card
bearing laborers to dig a trench from 'here' to 'over there'. And
while the hole is open, drop in extra pipes for power and signal
wiring.

4. Do I have to rip out everthing and in$tall a new pedi$tal, and if
$o..what would you $uggest for 200 amp $ervice, and where do I
$crounge one? I would NOT be changing the service at the home. The
100 amp main breaker has never tripped

You can probably find a used 125A or 200A pedestal locally at any
"breaker broker" - they're like a junkyard, but for power panels and
switchgear. They go rip the panels from buildings being demolished
and save the useful bits for rehab and resale. Standard junkyard
policies, 25% to 50% of new price, and they usually allow for a short
warranty period if it turns out to be a dud.

Two local ones I know of:
Bernard & Sons 16123 Cohasset (east side VNY) Van Nuys CA 818/787-9303

AAA Breakers, 17646 Sherman Way, Van Nuys CA 818/708-1850

Pedestals have all the stuff in one compact package, but you'll pay
for the convenience. See http://www.milbankmfg.com (Products -
Pedestals or Products - Commercial Pedestals) if you have a broadband
connection handy - they are local.

The 200A Commercial Pedestals go in easily, I've done several.
http://www.milbankmfg.com/catalogs/C...504Singles.pdf
They even have a 3-phase version.

Or buy a new surface-mount 200A underground "All-in-one" at Home
Depot, and you can make your own mounting stand for it out of sucker
rod or big square tubing (Metalworking Content) and a chunk of 1/8"
plate for a backboard. It will look like a pile of **** in comparison
to a real pedestal, but it'll be cheap. You will either need to
concrete encase plastic conduits where they come above ground, or use
rigid and transition to plastic at ground level.

You can build it all (either the new pedestal or your makeshift one)
next to the old pedestal, and when you are ready to switch over you
rip out the old pedestal. Place a plastic handhole right over where
the old underground utility riser is, and splice the feeders. Or if
there's already an Edison handhole there, land your new conduit into
it and it's super easy.

Both tig welders are rated at 100 amp, 220, and while I can run them
normally just fine with most materials..aluminum is requiring me to
draw far more power than Id normally use for any of the welding I
normally do.

I thought I had a pretty good grip on normal electrical issues, as I
had a C7-C10 for a number of years, but this is way outside of my
expertise. I dont know if its even code to tap into the pedistal above
ground. Shrug.

Depending on the model of old pedestal, you can tap off the backside
and mount a big Hubbell-Lock pin and sleeve receptacle - but remember
not to drill through into an unfused feeder busbar (inside those two
pieces of 3/4" PVC conduit in the back corners of the breaker section)
or much excitement will soon begin...

-- Bruce--

Many thanks Bruce. Good food for thought. Much obliged

Btw...its PG&E here..Pacific Greed and Extortion. I much rather have
had Edison....sigh ....I think.

Gunner