Bought a lot of 13 OSG end mills from toolguyjeffy on ebay. I was
shopping auctions close to ending, no time for questions. Seller has VG
overall feedback. So I paid right after end of auction and request if he
doesn't have tubes for all mills, could he please wrap them in paper so
they won't be damaged in shipping.

Package arrived yesterday, all but three are packed loose. Needless to
day, all are damaged. Yes, they will cut, but the dings leave marks in
the finish that are not acceptable to my customers. Requested refund,
I'd ship back at my expense.

Seller responds he's been in the trade 20 years (so should know better
than to pack them like that)

Says I should send them out for regrind and I'll still be ahead of the
game.

Says I got a steal in his opinion.

This guy is nowhere near a Babin, probably overall a good seller. But
anyone looking to buy end mills from him should get confirmation BEFORE
bidding that he will wrap them properly. That would include the lot he
currently has listed, with no tubes visible... And this should really
apply to any seller of end mills pictured with no protective tubes.

Seller has said he'll refund 'some money'.

He questions my claim of 10 damaged. If he refunds enough, I'll send
them all back with the dings marked....

Jon

Jon Anderson wrote:
Bought a lot of 13 OSG end mills from toolguyjeffy on ebay...

...Package arrived yesterday, all but three are packed loose.
Needless to day, all are damaged. Yes, they will cut, but the
dings leave marks in the finish that are not acceptable to my
customers. Requested refund, I'd ship back at my expense.

...Seller has said he'll refund 'some money'.

He questions my claim of 10 damaged.
If he refunds enough, I'll
send them all back with the dings marked....

I buy and sell on eBay a lot. And dialog with
a bunch of other very experienced eBay traders
on the eBay newsgroup.

I suggest -

YOU keep control of the trade. If you got a product
that is not acceptable, and you don't trust him to
refund you completely, including return shipping,
then simply reverse your credit card charges.

Disregard the nonsense in his listing about
"not responsible for shipping damage". Of course
he's responsible. It's certainly not you, the
buyer, that's responsible for packing it
sufficiently.

If he offers a partial refund, you should not
return the items. Use that money to have
them reground.

Looks like you haven't left feedback yet.
DON'T. You have 90 days to try and resolve
this transaction. Hold off on that feedback
till you're sure the fat lady has sung.


Lumpy

Lumpy wrote:

then simply reverse your credit card charges.

Paypal payment from balance.

It's certainly not you, the
buyer, that's responsible for packing it
sufficiently.

Especially after I specifically asked that they be wrapped to prevent
damage.

If he offers a partial refund, you should not
return the items. Use that money to have
them reground.

After my response to his reply, I doubt he's going to refund a penny.
Told him I was sure if I screwed him over in the same fashion he'd
probably be spitting nails.... Not the way to get a refund, but I'd bet
my last dollar that observation is right on.
I'm thinking I just might file with Paypal for a full refund.

Hold off on that feedback
till you're sure the fat lady has sung.

Oh yeah, will do for sure. And I will leave, at best, neutral feedback.
I've checked already, I can squeeze accurate details into one line...

Then too, I violated my major principle in ebay buying. I was shopping
auctions about to close and there was no time to inquire about
protective packing. I bought due to his good feedback -ASSuming- he'd
honor my request to wrap them. (I would have)

Overall I very rarely get burned on ebay because I usually stick to my
rules. This twit just provided an obviously needed refresher course.

Jon

On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 12:30:43 -0700, Jon Anderson wrote:
Oh yeah, will do for sure. And I will leave, at best, neutral feedback.
I've checked already, I can squeeze accurate details into one line...

OK, I don't get it. This is twice that recently, here, people have
described a _BAD_ eBay situation, and yet you still seem like you
wouldn't post bad feedback. What about those of us who rely on feedback
to decide who to buy from? The whole point of the feedback system is to
warn people off from the bad ones.

On 12 Aug 2005 19:35:09 GMT, Dave Hinz wrote:

On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 12:30:43 -0700, Jon Anderson wrote:
Oh yeah, will do for sure. And I will leave, at best, neutral feedback.
I've checked already, I can squeeze accurate details into one line...

OK, I don't get it. This is twice that recently, here, people have
described a _BAD_ eBay situation, and yet you still seem like you
wouldn't post bad feedback. What about those of us who rely on feedback
to decide who to buy from? The whole point of the feedback system is to
warn people off from the bad ones.

Interesting post, as both a seller and buyer I was curious about
feedback and visted the "Help Section "on Ebay.

As almost all the posters were sellers thay were talking in the range
of 3-4 weeks with no communication to buyer is reasonable before
feedback should be posted.

As a seller I always contact the buyer right away and tell them when
the item will be shipped.

I recently purchased a cell phone and emailed the guy and told him I
need it right away and would appreciate him emailing me, long story
short I never heard from him. Seven days later I posted neutral
feedabck and guess what it came the next day.

I felt bad about the neutral feedabck, but damn can he be so lazy he
cant answer his email??

Is that asking to much??

Regards


Daveb

On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 20:02:47 GMT, DaveB DaveB wrote:
On 12 Aug 2005 19:35:09 GMT, Dave Hinz wrote:

What about those of us who rely on feedback
to decide who to buy from? The whole point of the feedback system is to
warn people off from the bad ones.

Interesting post, as both a seller and buyer I was curious about
feedback and visted the "Help Section "on Ebay.

As almost all the posters were sellers thay were talking in the range
of 3-4 weeks with no communication to buyer is reasonable before
feedback should be posted.

(boggle) 3-4 WEEKS? And here I felt bad this morning that there was a
question from a buyer that he posted yesterday, and I didn't check last
night.

As a seller I always contact the buyer right away and tell them when
the item will be shipped.

Of course.

I recently purchased a cell phone and emailed the guy and told him I
need it right away and would appreciate him emailing me, long story
short I never heard from him. Seven days later I posted neutral
feedabck and guess what it came the next day.

I felt bad about the neutral feedabck, but damn can he be so lazy he
cant answer his email?? Is that asking to much??

I sure don't think it is.

Dave Hinz wrote:

What about those of us who rely on feedback
to decide who to buy from? The whole point of the feedback system is to
warn people off from the bad ones.

I didn't say for sure he'd get a neutral. I said that's the best he's
going to get. It's all down hill from that... It's a fine line. If all
were bad and he refused to refund, certainly I'd neg him. He comes back
with any more crappy attitude and I'll neg him. Hate to lose my perfect
feedback, but that's life, and the rest of my feedback would certainly
negate the infantile retaliatory neg I'd certainly get.

As for alerting folks, that was the purpose of my post here. In addition
to naming the guilty party, I mentioned a general caution about buying
end mills when there's no protective tubes visible in the auction pics.

Jon

Jon Anderson wrote:
Dave Hinz wrote:

What about those of us who rely on feedback

to decide who to buy from? The whole point of the feedback system is to
warn people off from the bad ones.


I didn't say for sure he'd get a neutral. I said that's the best he's
going to get. It's all down hill from that... It's a fine line. If all
were bad and he refused to refund, certainly I'd neg him. He comes back
with any more crappy attitude and I'll neg him. Hate to lose my perfect
feedback, but that's life, and the rest of my feedback would certainly
negate the infantile retaliatory neg I'd certainly get.

As for alerting folks, that was the purpose of my post here. In addition
to naming the guilty party, I mentioned a general caution about buying
end mills when there's no protective tubes visible in the auction pics.

Jon

Did you mention to him that you're keeping a Usenet group informed of
how he's doing you? That might change his attitude a little.. I think if
he ends up not making it right, you saying so here is likely to hurt him
a lot more than a single negative feedback.

John

JohnM wrote:

Did you mention to him that you're keeping a Usenet group informed of
how he's doing you?

No, I'd rather he perhaps wonder why his end mills don't sell as high as
they used to...

That might change his attitude a little..

I doubt it. This guy is probably rather full of himself, the sort of
machismo that says whatever he says is right, regardless. It's pointless
trying to change their attitude.

you saying so here is likely to hurt him
a lot more than a single negative feedback.

Grin!

BTW, here's some excellent ebay tools for scoping out sellers and buyers

http://www.toolhaus.org/

There's a Neg plugin for Firefox. If you're looking at an auction and
want to check the negs, right click anywhere within the auction. You can
select to display negs in the current window or a new window.
I've got to start using this more...

Jon

Jon Anderson wrote:


BTW, here's some excellent ebay tools for scoping out sellers and buyers

http://www.toolhaus.org/

There's a Neg plugin for Firefox. If you're looking at an auction and
want to check the negs, right click anywhere within the auction. You can
select to display negs in the current window or a new window.
I've got to start using this more...

Jon

Hey, thanks, I'll check into that. I seem to remember ebay allowing you
to see just the negs for someone at one time but it's not that way anymore.

John

On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 17:00:30 -0700, Jon Anderson wrote:
Dave Hinz wrote:

What about those of us who rely on feedback
to decide who to buy from? The whole point of the feedback system is to
warn people off from the bad ones.

I didn't say for sure he'd get a neutral. I said that's the best he's
going to get. It's all down hill from that... It's a fine line.

Well, OK, but it seems negative enough to me...

As for alerting folks, that was the purpose of my post here. In addition
to naming the guilty party, I mentioned a general caution about buying
end mills when there's no protective tubes visible in the auction pics.

Yes, but when I buy something on eBay, I don't search the Usenet
archives for the eBay ID; I look at the feedback (and, the feedback of
people who gave them negative feedback...)

In article , Dave Hinz
wrote:

On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 12:30:43 -0700, Jon Anderson
wrote:
Oh yeah, will do for sure. And I will leave, at best, neutral feedback.
I've checked already, I can squeeze accurate details into one line...

OK, I don't get it. This is twice that recently, here, people have
described a _BAD_ eBay situation, and yet you still seem like you
wouldn't post bad feedback. What about those of us who rely on feedback
to decide who to buy from? The whole point of the feedback system is to
warn people off from the bad ones.

Double edged sword. Buyers also have feedback scores. If you leave bad
feedback to a seller, the seller can turn around and trash your buyer
feedback score out of spite.

The whole feedback system was a good idea in the beginning but has
actually turned into a huge extortion racket. I rarely buy on eBay but,
when I do, I won't be coerced into leaving undeserved positive feedback
for unsatisfactory service or merchandise. Instead, I decline to leave
feedback at all. Consequently, I currently have a feedback score of
exactly "1."

-Frank

--
fwarner1-at-franksknives-dot-com
Here's some of my work:
http://www.franksknives.com/

Seller offered $20 partial refund, and I accepted. Three good end mills
are worth at least 2x what I paid for them, so overall I came out real
good. But toolguyjeffy refuses to acknowledge he mispackaged them and
denies 10 could possibly have been damaged. Says "I packed them real
tight in the box, they couldn't have moved". They don't have to move at
all to damage each other if they're already touching.
Since I came out OK, won't neg. Neutral, with accurate description of
problem will be posted.

What really gripes me about this guy is his total unrepentant attitude.
Would have taken him all of maybe 2 minutes to roll up the mills in
paper. Instead he's out $20. Hmm, $10/minute, wonder if he learned anything?

What I (re)learned:

Never ever bid last minute when there are ANY questions about the item
or shipping. I knew better, slacked off, got bit.

Never buy end mills without verification they will be properly packaged,
before bidding.

As always, caveat emptor...

Jon

"Jon Anderson" wrote in message
...
Seller offered $20 partial refund, and I accepted. Three good end mills
are worth at least 2x what I paid for them, so overall I came out real
good. But toolguyjeffy refuses to acknowledge he mispackaged them and
denies 10 could possibly have been damaged. Says "I packed them real tight
in the box, they couldn't have moved". They don't have to move at all to
damage each other if they're already touching.
Since I came out OK, won't neg. Neutral, with accurate description of
problem will be posted.

What really gripes me about this guy is his total unrepentant attitude.
Would have taken him all of maybe 2 minutes to roll up the mills in paper.
Instead he's out $20. Hmm, $10/minute, wonder if he learned anything?

What I (re)learned:

Never ever bid last minute when there are ANY questions about the item or
shipping. I knew better, slacked off, got bit.

Never buy end mills without verification they will be properly packaged,
before bidding.

As always, caveat emptor...

Sounds like a neutral resolution, appropriate for the feedback you will be
leaving.

Seems to me that some sellers might get a little annoyed at being asked
about their packaging capability, at least for relatively cheap items, but
then maybe they are best avoided anyway.

A while back I got a relatively expensive optical micrometer from an Ebay
auction. The glued on foam inside the case had partially dissolved leaving
a film over the micrometer and manual. His feedback should have been a tip
off but this was a relatively rare item and the possibility of dissolved
foam never occurred to me. The seller was quick to send an automated email
reminder to leave feedback for himself but never replied to my polite
requests for an explanation or suggestions on clean up. I meant to leave
him negative feedback on the last allowable day but forgot.

Mike

"Jon Anderson" wrote in message
...

Never buy end mills without verification they will be properly packaged,
before bidding.


Actually, I would suggest never buy endmills unless they're new and in the
original packaging unless you have the capability of re-sharpening them
yourself.

--

SVL

Mike Henry wrote:

Seems to me that some sellers might get a little annoyed at being asked
about their packaging capability, at least for relatively cheap items, but
then maybe they are best avoided anyway.

This is where I dropped the ball. I often gage a seller by the response
to such questions. No response, rude response, or response that doesn't
make sense, I move on. Given there wasn't time to get a response, I
should have just moved on.

But value should have nothing to do with packaging. Buyers should not
have to gamble or just hope an item will arrive undamaged. I will pack a
$2 item just as well as a $200 item.

Couple hundred items sold on ebay, only one arrived damaged. I screwed
up packing and a cast iron part broke. He shipped it back and I machined
a nice looking replacement.


Jon

"Jon Anderson" wrote in message
...
Mike Henry wrote:

Seems to me that some sellers might get a little annoyed at being asked
about their packaging capability, at least for relatively cheap items,
but then maybe they are best avoided anyway.

This is where I dropped the ball. I often gage a seller by the response to
such questions. No response, rude response, or response that doesn't make
sense, I move on. Given there wasn't time to get a response, I should have
just moved on.

That makes sense, especially for items that come up frequently on Ebay. A
good response might also have you bidding on other items that might be more
lucrative for the seller.

But value should have nothing to do with packaging. Buyers should not have
to gamble or just hope an item will arrive undamaged. I will pack a $2
item just as well as a $200 item.

Couple hundred items sold on ebay, only one arrived damaged. I screwed up
packing and a cast iron part broke. He shipped it back and I machined a
nice looking replacement.

Come to think of it, I bought a nice little Carroll dividing head from you
on Ebay a few years back, which arrived in perfect shape. AIR, there was an
error in the reserve price which worked out to my advantage but you refused
to back out of the deal. That says a lot about your integrity.

Mike

Mike Henry wrote:

Come to think of it, I bought a nice little Carroll dividing head from you
on Ebay a few years back, which arrived in perfect shape. AIR, there was an
error in the reserve price which worked out to my advantage but you refused
to back out of the deal. That says a lot about your integrity.

Well heck, thanks! Heh, I'd forgotten all about that. I've made a few
blunders listing on ebay, accelerated learning curve....G I just chalk
them up to the cost of self-education, and try to not repeat them!

How's that dividing head been working out for you?

Jon