I've been doing some copper art stuff for a while now and I'm constantly
learning. I'd like to learn how to join copper tube/pipe and keep the copper
still shiny. When I braze my joints the resulting joint is dark from the
heat and excess brazing material very often goes where you don't want it. I
have to either use a scotch brite pad in a die grinder or sandblast the
joints to clean them up. Either way, the copper doesn't stay nice and shiny.
If you look at some items from this company in Denver, you'll notice their
tube joints are all very nice looking. I'm sure that they don't spend the
time to repolish. How do they do that?
http://www.gidesigns.net/garden_structures.html especially the 5th through
9th pictures on the page.

Any and all help would be very greatly appreciated.
Lane

Don't use so much heat! You only need to get the copper to a temp of about
400F at the hottest to get a full melting of the solder with some headroom
for the melting of it. Gas welding usually gets the surface real hot and
tarnishes the copper quickly.
Another thing is that there are resistance soldering systems that will help
keep the copper from being too hot as the hottest place will be at the joint
where the contact is minimal.
FWIW, I've done soldering with a hot air gun! It works and doesn't get
anything too hot.

--
Why isn't there an Ozone Hole at the NORTH Pole?

On Mon, 7 Mar 2005 17:48:34 -0800, the inscrutable "Lane" lane (no
spam) at copperaccents dot com spake:

I've been doing some copper art stuff for a while now and I'm constantly
learning. I'd like to learn how to join copper tube/pipe and keep the copper
still shiny. When I braze my joints the resulting joint is dark from the
heat and excess brazing material very often goes where you don't want it. I
have to either use a scotch brite pad in a die grinder or sandblast the
joints to clean them up. Either way, the copper doesn't stay nice and shiny.
If you look at some items from this company in Denver, you'll notice their
tube joints are all very nice looking. I'm sure that they don't spend the
time to repolish. How do they do that?
http://www.gidesigns.net/garden_structures.html especially the 5th through
9th pictures on the page.

The FLW trellises don't look all that clean, Lane.
http://www.gidesigns.net/images/fran...ht_trellis.jpg
I think it's hidden in the faraway pictures. The only closeup
on the page is of a piece with the green patina. Are you sure
they don't solder vs. brazing the joints? (The words "solder"
and "braze" are not found on their pages.)

BTW, I love that repoussè work at the bottom of the page.


================================================== ========
I drank WHAT? + http://www.diversify.com
--Socrates + Web Application Programming

"Lane" lane (no spam) at copperaccents dot com wrote in
:

I've been doing some copper art stuff for a while now and I'm
constantly learning. I'd like to learn how to join copper tube/pipe
and keep the copper still shiny. When I braze my joints the resulting
joint is dark from the heat and excess brazing material very often
goes where you don't want it. I have to either use a scotch brite pad
in a die grinder or sandblast the joints to clean them up. Either way,
the copper doesn't stay nice and shiny. If you look at some items from
this company in Denver, you'll notice their tube joints are all very
nice looking. I'm sure that they don't spend the time to repolish. How
do they do that? http://www.gidesigns.net/garden_structures.html
especially the 5th through 9th pictures on the page.

Any and all help would be very greatly appreciated.
Lane



May be induction heating it. As another poster stated, the temp to join
copper is not very high.



--
Anthony

You can't 'idiot proof' anything....every time you try, they just make
better idiots.

Remove sp to reply via email

Lane wrote:
I've been doing some copper art stuff for a while now and I'm constantly
learning. I'd like to learn how to join copper tube/pipe and keep the copper
still shiny. When I braze my joints the resulting joint is dark from the
heat and excess brazing material very often goes where you don't want it.

(...)

You might post to our buds at sci.engr.joining.welding

--Winston

"Bob May" wrote in message
...
Don't use so much heat! You only need to get the copper to a temp of
about
400F at the hottest to get a full melting of the solder with some headroom
for the melting of it. Gas welding usually gets the surface real hot and
tarnishes the copper quickly.
Another thing is that there are resistance soldering systems that will
help
keep the copper from being too hot as the hottest place will be at the
joint
where the contact is minimal.
FWIW, I've done soldering with a hot air gun! It works and doesn't get
anything too hot.

The brazing I do requires heat around 750 degrees F.

"Winston" wrote in message
...
Lane wrote:
I've been doing some copper art stuff for a while now and I'm constantly
learning. I'd like to learn how to join copper tube/pipe and keep the
copper still shiny. When I braze my joints the resulting joint is dark
from the heat and excess brazing material very often goes where you don't
want it.

(...)

You might post to our buds at sci.engr.joining.welding

--Winston


Done, thanks. I should have thought of that.
Lane

"Lane" lane (no spam) at copperaccents dot com wrote in message
...
I've been doing some copper art stuff for a while now and I'm constantly
learning. I'd like to learn how to join copper tube/pipe and keep the
copper
still shiny. When I braze my joints the resulting joint is dark from the
heat and excess brazing material very often goes where you don't want it.
I
have to either use a scotch brite pad in a die grinder or sandblast the
joints to clean them up. Either way, the copper doesn't stay nice and
shiny.
If you look at some items from this company in Denver, you'll notice their
tube joints are all very nice looking. I'm sure that they don't spend the
time to repolish. How do they do that?
http://www.gidesigns.net/garden_structures.html especially the 5th through
9th pictures on the page.

Any and all help would be very greatly appreciated.
Lane

I use brass but still have the same problems. I have to get my pipes red
hot and this in turn causes them to turn a nice blotchy gray/black. The
first step is to dip them in a 50/50 solution of muratic acid and water
followed by a long water bath. Finally I buff in the classical manner.
Comes out great.

LB

"Leonard & Peggy Brown" wrote in message
news:gN9Xd.4556 I use brass but still have the same problems. I have to
get my pipes red
hot and this in turn causes them to turn a nice blotchy gray/black. The
first step is to dip them in a 50/50 solution of muratic acid and water
followed by a long water bath. Finally I buff in the classical manner.
Comes out great.

LB

When you say dip, what exactly do you do? Would a spray on or brush on
approach work? Then rinse with a water spray. My work is too big for a dip
into a tank.
Lane

"Lane" lane (no spam) at copperaccents dot com wrote in message
...
When I braze my joints the resulting joint is dark from the
heat and excess brazing material very often goes where you don't want it.

Which reminds me, what's the easiest way to remove that black hard gunk left
from borax flux? Brass brazing copper or steel here...

Tim

--
"California is the breakfast state: fruits, nuts and flakes."
Website: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

"Tim Williams" wrote in message
...
"Lane" lane (no spam) at copperaccents dot com wrote in message
...
When I braze my joints the resulting joint is dark from the
heat and excess brazing material very often goes where you don't want
it.

Which reminds me, what's the easiest way to remove that black hard gunk
left
from borax flux? Brass brazing copper or steel here...

Tim

--
"California is the breakfast state: fruits, nuts and flakes."
Website: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms


Boiling water and time.

Harold

"Lane" lane (no spam) at copperaccents dot com wrote in message
...

"Leonard & Peggy Brown" wrote in message
news:gN9Xd.4556 I use brass but still have the same problems. I have to
get my pipes red
hot and this in turn causes them to turn a nice blotchy gray/black. The
first step is to dip them in a 50/50 solution of muratic acid and water
followed by a long water bath. Finally I buff in the classical manner.
Comes out great.

LB

When you say dip, what exactly do you do? Would a spray on or brush on
approach work? Then rinse with a water spray. My work is too big for a dip
into a tank.
Lane

Depending on the nature of your project, you might consider using dilute
sulfuric acid. It readily dissolves copper oxide but won't touch the
copper. You can restore the original copper color, but it may not be shiny.
If I'm not mistaken, industry uses a cyanide process, but that is beyond the
ability of the home shop, cyanide being nearly impossible to buy, and
certainly more hazardous than one should risk at home.

Sulfuric is not a good choice if your joints include brass because the
sulfuric will attack zinc, quickly dissolving enough of it away to change
the color to a copper color and reducing the brass to something on the order
of Swiss cheese. A long enough exposure would permit the brass to
disintegrate.

Harold

On Mon, 7 Mar 2005 17:48:34 -0800, "Lane" lane (no spam) at
copperaccents dot com wrote:

I've been doing some copper art stuff for a while now and I'm constantly
learning. I'd like to learn how to join copper tube/pipe and keep the copper
still shiny. When I braze my joints the resulting joint is dark from the
heat and excess brazing material very often goes where you don't want it. I
have to either use a scotch brite pad in a die grinder or sandblast the
joints to clean them up. Either way, the copper doesn't stay nice and shiny.
If you look at some items from this company in Denver, you'll notice their
tube joints are all very nice looking. I'm sure that they don't spend the
time to repolish. How do they do that?
http://www.gidesigns.net/garden_structures.html especially the 5th through
9th pictures on the page.

Any and all help would be very greatly appreciated.
Lane

Do you have to braze? Will silver bearing soft solde work? Will
Sil-Phos work? Just how much strength do you need? Maybe you can soft
solder a joint and then twist it to see where it fails.
Eric

Jewelers that I know always seem to have a dish of Sparex (or Sparex #2)
for cleaning things. Try this search and see where it takes you:
+sparex +jewelry

Pete Stanaitis
-------------------

Lane wrote:

I've been doing some copper art stuff for a while now and I'm constantly
learning. I'd like to learn how to join copper tube/pipe and keep the copper
still shiny. When I braze my joints the resulting joint is dark from the
heat and excess brazing material very often goes where you don't want it. I
have to either use a scotch brite pad in a die grinder or sandblast the
joints to clean them up. Either way, the copper doesn't stay nice and shiny.
If you look at some items from this company in Denver, you'll notice their
tube joints are all very nice looking. I'm sure that they don't spend the
time to repolish. How do they do that?
http://www.gidesigns.net/garden_structures.html especially the 5th through
9th pictures on the page.

Any and all help would be very greatly appreciated.
Lane

"Eric R Snow" wrote in message Do you have to braze?
Will silver bearing soft solde work? Will
Sil-Phos work? Just how much strength do you need? Maybe you can soft
solder a joint and then twist it to see where it fails.
Eric


I am using Sil-Phos, namely JW Harris brand DynaFlow. I was told that that
is brazing. I used soft solder before and had problems with joints failing,
I went to Sil-Phos which requires higher heat and a lot of clean up.

You should try lurking on rec.crafts jewelry. You need a pickle
solution, which you can brush on immediately after soldering, takes all
that horrid stuff right off. Instead of Sparex, which the pros there
say is expensive and not very pure, they recommend some form of pool Ph
reducer, basically sodium bisulphate, same ingredient as Sparex. Cost
is about 8$ for 7 pounds, so is very economical. Make up a saturated
solution in hot water, then brush it on the joints. Rinse with cold
water.
Richard in Los Angeles

On Tue, 8 Mar 2005 11:19:55 -0800, "Lane" lane (no spam) at
copperaccents dot com wrote:


"Eric R Snow" wrote in message Do you have to braze?
Will silver bearing soft solde work? Will
Sil-Phos work? Just how much strength do you need? Maybe you can soft
solder a joint and then twist it to see where it fails.
Eric


I am using Sil-Phos, namely JW Harris brand DynaFlow. I was told that that
is brazing. I used soft solder before and had problems with joints failing,
I went to Sil-Phos which requires higher heat and a lot of clean up.

Greetings Lane,
Unless you're gonna use flux on the outside the parts will need to be
cleaned. Sparex was mentioned. That would be Sparex #2 which is sodium
bisulphate. Mix the stuff into water. It works better when warmed.
Apparently some manufacturers will plate over, rather than remove, the
discolered surface. A flux which I like is prips flux. Don't know if
it should be capitalized. But it is made like so:
RECIPE FROM THE COMPLETE METALSMITH
2 fluid oz borax
2 fluid oz tri-sodium phosphate (TSP)
3 fluid oz boric acid.
Boil the above ingredients in 1 quart water. Longer boiling makes it
better.
The stuff is used by putting it in a spray bottle. Heat the work but
not enough to cause discoloration. Spray the flux on the part and it
will dry. Do this a few times till an unbroken coat forms.
I use a solder from called Tarasil 946. Made by Tara Corp. It's 94%
tin and 6% silver. It is the strongest silver bearing soft solder I
have found. Proper cleaning and fluxing of joints really cuts down on
joint failures.
One last thing. Use enough flame to bring the parts up to heat fast. A
smaller flame will take a long time to get the parts hot enough and
they will be at elevated temps longer than with a larger flame. Within
reason of course. Using an oxygen lance will vaporize the work before
you get a chance to apply the solder.
Eric

"Eric R Snow" wrote in message
Greetings Lane,
Unless you're gonna use flux on the outside the parts will need to be
cleaned. Sparex was mentioned. That would be Sparex #2 which is sodium
bisulphate. Mix the stuff into water. It works better when warmed.
Apparently some manufacturers will plate over, rather than remove, the
discolered surface. A flux which I like is prips flux. Don't know if
it should be capitalized. But it is made like so:
RECIPE FROM THE COMPLETE METALSMITH
2 fluid oz borax
2 fluid oz tri-sodium phosphate (TSP)
3 fluid oz boric acid.
Boil the above ingredients in 1 quart water. Longer boiling makes it
better.
The stuff is used by putting it in a spray bottle. Heat the work but
not enough to cause discoloration. Spray the flux on the part and it
will dry. Do this a few times till an unbroken coat forms.
I use a solder from called Tarasil 946. Made by Tara Corp. It's 94%
tin and 6% silver. It is the strongest silver bearing soft solder I
have found. Proper cleaning and fluxing of joints really cuts down on
joint failures.
One last thing. Use enough flame to bring the parts up to heat fast. A
smaller flame will take a long time to get the parts hot enough and
they will be at elevated temps longer than with a larger flame. Within
reason of course. Using an oxygen lance will vaporize the work before
you get a chance to apply the solder.
Eric

Eric
Ok, I'll give the Tarasil a try.
Thanks
Lane

Which reminds me, what's the easiest way to remove that black hard
gunk left
from borax flux? Brass brazing copper or steel here...

Tim



I make up a saturated solution of either sodium bicarbonate or washing
soda in hot water and soak the brazed part for about 1/2 hour, all the
flux residue is gone.
Mike

On Tue, 8 Mar 2005 00:41:06 -0600, "Tim Williams"
wrote:

"Lane" lane (no spam) at copperaccents dot com wrote in message
...
When I braze my joints the resulting joint is dark from the
heat and excess brazing material very often goes where you don't want it.

Which reminds me, what's the easiest way to remove that black hard gunk left
from borax flux? Brass brazing copper or steel here...

Use enough flux. It's much harder to remove if it's black and loaded
with oxides. As Harold noted, boiling water and time will do the
job -- and it'll do it faster if the flux isn't black. On work that
will stand quenching, I've found that most or all of the flux
shatters and falls off when quenched -- if it isn't black.

Making the material go where you want it to go is a matter of heat
control. It will "follow the heat". There are masking materials
available, e.g. "Heat Fence". (Found at welding store) I have a jar
of it but I haven't tried it yet. I'll try it next time I braze
something.

"Don Foreman" wrote in message
...
Use enough flux. It's much harder to remove if it's black and loaded
with oxides.

I use tonnes (usually dipping the rod twice in a heavy layer of borax), but
you probably wouldn't be used to the relatively diffuse heat I use.
Air/propane (small foundry burner), not O/A. I can't avoid getting scale on
the work for five inches or so around the joint.

On work that
will stand quenching, I've found that most or all of the flux
shatters and falls off when quenched -- if it isn't black.

Yep, fun when it just crunches off like that

Making the material go where you want it to go is a matter of heat
control. It will "follow the heat".

No problems of that here, unless I throw on too much rod.

Tim

--
"California is the breakfast state: fruits, nuts and flakes."
Website: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...

Depending on the nature of your project, you might consider using dilute
sulfuric acid. It readily dissolves copper oxide but won't touch the
copper. You can restore the original copper color, but it may not be
shiny.
If I'm not mistaken, industry uses a cyanide process, but that is beyond
the
ability of the home shop, cyanide being nearly impossible to buy, and
certainly more hazardous than one should risk at home.

Sulfuric is not a good choice if your joints include brass because the
sulfuric will attack zinc, quickly dissolving enough of it away to change
the color to a copper color and reducing the brass to something on the
order
of Swiss cheese. A long enough exposure would permit the brass to
disintegrate.

Harold


Harold, where does one go to buy sulfuric acid?

Lane

In rec.crafts.metalworking,
Lane lane (no spam) at copperaccents dot com wrote:
Harold, where does one go to buy sulfuric acid?

I've bought it at my local hardware store. "Hot Shot" brand drain
opener, a plastic quart bottle in a plastic bag for leak protection.
It is marked "for industrial use only" or the like, and I expect
most hardware stores don't carry it. Google doesn't have much about
that one, but there are other brands. Read the labels.

Sulfuric acid is pretty nasty stuff and some people don't think it
should be so openly sold, however:

http://www.chemaxx.com/acid2.htm

Elijah
------
what fool put the acid where it could fall over, though?

Harold, where does one go to buy sulfuric acid?

Lane

Any good hardware store. - GWE

"Lane" lane (no spam) at copperaccents dot com wrote in message
The brazing I do requires heat around 750 degrees F.


Opps, thats 750 degrees C, or about 1300 degrees F.
Lane

The FLW trellises don't look all that clean, Lane.
http://www.gidesigns.net/images/fran...ht_trellis.jpg

is it just me, or does everyone get a "you are not allowed here"
message on this link?
Ron

In article .com,
doo wrote:



The FLW trellises don't look all that clean, Lane.
http://www.gidesigns.net/images/fran...ht_trellis.jpg

is it just me, or does everyone get a "you are not allowed here"
message on this link?

Well ... I did not use a browser, but I did use wget, and it
grabbed the image without problems.

Could it be that they are blocking your ISP?

Good Luck,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

"doo" wrote in message
oups.com...



The FLW trellises don't look all that clean, Lane.
http://www.gidesigns.net/images/fran...ht_trellis.jpg

is it just me, or does everyone get a "you are not allowed here"
message on this link?
Ron

I don't. See the picture just fine.

Larry Jaques wrote:

On Mon, 7 Mar 2005 17:48:34 -0800, the inscrutable "Lane" lane (no
spam) at copperaccents dot com spake:

I've been doing some copper art stuff for a while now and I'm constantly
learning. I'd like to learn how to join copper tube/pipe and keep the copper
still shiny. When I braze my joints the resulting joint is dark from the
heat and excess brazing material very often goes where you don't want it. I
have to either use a scotch brite pad in a die grinder or sandblast the
joints to clean them up. Either way, the copper doesn't stay nice and shiny.
If you look at some items from this company in Denver, you'll notice their
tube joints are all very nice looking. I'm sure that they don't spend the
time to repolish. How do they do that?
http://www.gidesigns.net/garden_structures.html especially the 5th through
9th pictures on the page.

The FLW trellises don't look all that clean, Lane.
http://www.gidesigns.net/images/fran...ht_trellis.jpg
I think it's hidden in the faraway pictures. The only closeup
on the page is of a piece with the green patina. Are you sure
they don't solder vs. brazing the joints? (The words "solder"
and "braze" are not found on their pages.)

BTW, I love that repoussè work at the bottom of the page.

================================================== ========
I drank WHAT? + http://www.diversify.com
--Socrates + Web Application Programming

Tried the Frank Lloyd Wright link and got a very cheery message
instead. it said.....


YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED HERE!
WE'RE RECORDING ANY ILLEGAL ACTIVITIES ON OUR SERVER.
Your referer:
news://news1.ab.sympatico.ca/g67q219...1f4a%404ax.com
Your IP address: 64.228.48.20
Requested URI: /images/frank_lloyd_wright_trellis.jpg
Your Browser: Mozilla/4.73 [en]C-SYMPA (Win98; U)


Is there something we should know?

Cheers
Trevor Jones

"Lane" lane (no spam) at copperaccents dot com wrote in message
...

"Eric R Snow" wrote in message Do you have to braze?
Will silver bearing soft solde work? Will
Sil-Phos work? Just how much strength do you need? Maybe you can soft
solder a joint and then twist it to see where it fails.
Eric


I am using Sil-Phos, namely JW Harris brand DynaFlow. I was told that that
is brazing. I used soft solder before and had problems with joints
failing, I went to Sil-Phos which requires higher heat and a lot of clean
up.

I use Harris Stay-Silv 5, it's a copper, silver phos 1/16". I braze with
a Little Torch see @ http://www.littletorch.com/. Clean up is easy with a
product you find in the pool chemicals at Home Depot called phDown..it's in
a blue, plastic bottle. It contains an salt of sulfuric acid and makes a
solution called 'pickle.' I use a wash tub and mix a good 'slug' of the
salt and let the metal braze sit about 10 minutes and then brush off. Comes
bright clean. Use rubber gloves, safety goggles and dispose of the stuff
properly...like down the drain.. FWIW I chose this particular braze rod
because it takes a patina like copper and the joint braze is not evident in
the final product.
See some of my stuff @ http://home.mchsi.com/~llhote/ see gallery for
latest

Larry

Tried the Frank Lloyd Wright link and got a very cheery message
instead. it said.....


YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED HERE!
WE'RE RECORDING ANY ILLEGAL ACTIVITIES ON OUR SERVER.
Your referer:
news://news1.ab.sympatico.ca/g67q219...1f4a%404ax.com
Your IP address: 64.228.48.20
Requested URI: /images/frank_lloyd_wright_trellis.jpg
Your Browser: Mozilla/4.73 [en]C-SYMPA (Win98; U)


Is there something we should know?

Cheers
Trevor Jones


Yea, I got that once too. Tried again the next day and it worked.

http://www.gidesigns.net/images/fran...ht_trellis.jpg

is it just me, or does everyone
get a "you are not allowed here"
message on this link?

If your browser sends a "referrer" header and the referrer isn't
gidesigns.net, they're giving you the nastygram.

Tim.

On 11 Mar 2005 14:12:23 -0800, Tim Shoppa wrote:
http://www.gidesigns.net/images/fran...ht_trellis.jpg

is it just me, or does everyone
get a "you are not allowed here"
message on this link?

If your browser sends a "referrer" header and the referrer isn't
gidesigns.net, they're giving you the nastygram.

That's insane. That's saying "Unless you came from our site, you can't
see our site". If they're trying to prevent people hot-linking their
images, (a reasonable guess of why they'd do that), they're doing it
the wrong way.

Either way, the copper doesn't stay nice and shiny.

Yeah, "real" copper wil get a green patina when exposed to weather.

I've seen copper preserved under laquer when they don't want this
effect.

you'll notice their tube joints are all very nice looking

I think under close-up that you'd see the join and the brazing/solder.
The pictures on the website are all so small that you can't see joins.
And I think they did polish up to take the pictures.

Tim.

"Lawrence L'Hote" wrote in message
news:RKlYd.119680$tl3.74751@attbi_s02...

"Lane" lane (no spam) at copperaccents dot com wrote in message
...

"Eric R Snow" wrote in message Do you have to braze?
Will silver bearing soft solde work? Will
Sil-Phos work? Just how much strength do you need? Maybe you can soft
solder a joint and then twist it to see where it fails.
Eric


I am using Sil-Phos, namely JW Harris brand DynaFlow. I was told that
that is brazing. I used soft solder before and had problems with joints
failing, I went to Sil-Phos which requires higher heat and a lot of clean
up.

I use Harris Stay-Silv 5, it's a copper, silver phos 1/16". I braze
with a Little Torch see @ http://www.littletorch.com/. Clean up is easy
with a product you find in the pool chemicals at Home Depot called
phDown..it's in a blue, plastic bottle. It contains an salt of sulfuric
acid and makes a solution called 'pickle.' I use a wash tub and mix a
good 'slug' of the salt and let the metal braze sit about 10 minutes and
then brush off. Comes bright clean. Use rubber gloves, safety goggles
and dispose of the stuff properly...like down the drain.. FWIW I chose
this particular braze rod because it takes a patina like copper and the
joint braze is not evident in the final product.
See some of my stuff @ http://home.mchsi.com/~llhote/ see gallery for
latest

Larry


Larry, yes I plan on trying some phDown stuff soon. Thanks for writing. I
like your sculptures.
Lane