I am building a new house and I want to hardwire it for speakers. Is there
any reason not to use plain solid strand 14/2 NMD 90 wire. I have this wire
on hand and it is half the cost of speaker wire.

unless you're a real audiophile, you won't know the difference.

habbi wrote:
I am building a new house and I want to hardwire it for speakers. Is there
any reason not to use plain solid strand 14/2 NMD 90 wire. I have this wire
on hand and it is half the cost of speaker wire.

I swear the wires my youngin has run in his car has to be 2-0 just
feeding his ^&*%* darn boom box............me I use zip cord or
whatever else I sufficient quanities of, half deaf anyhow so it makes
no difference to me

On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 23:55:04 GMT, yourname wrote:

===unless you're a real audiophile, you won't know the difference.
===
===habbi wrote:
=== I am building a new house and I want to hardwire it for speakers. Is there
=== any reason not to use plain solid strand 14/2 NMD 90 wire. I have this wire
=== on hand and it is half the cost of speaker wire.
===
===

WINDSONG......the ability to play musical tunes by farting!

This is worth repeating for benefit of al newbies!
Jo Ann asked Dr. Solo to remind people that while she has retired from selling GF (and sold
the business to Ken Fischer http://dandyorandas.com/) she has NOT retired from
helping people with sick GF and koi FOR FREE. 251-649-4790 phoning is best for
diagnosis. but, can try email put "help sick fish" in subject. Get your fish at Dandy Orandas
Dandy Orandas Dandy Orandas........you guys got that DANDY ORANDAS

yourname wrote:

unless you're a real audiophile, you won't know the difference.

habbi wrote:

I am building a new house and I want to hardwire it for speakers. Is
there
any reason not to use plain solid strand 14/2 NMD 90 wire. I have
this wire
on hand and it is half the cost of speaker wire.


You should check the "hi fi" that you will be using as some of the older
ones (that I used)
didn't like to see a long run to the speaker. It was some problem with
inductance or something
I don't remember the details. Otherwise you should have no problem.

Bill K7NOM

yourname wrote:
unless you're a real audiophile, you won't know the difference.

Even if you are, you won't know the difference. Time domain
reflectometry comparison between Monster Cable and #14 zip cord showed
no difference in signal quality in a band from 0 to 100MHz.

I am building a new house and I want to hardwire it for speakers. Is
there
any reason not to use plain solid strand 14/2 NMD 90 wire. I have this
wire
on hand and it is half the cost of speaker wire.

On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 19:40:07 GMT, Ted Edwards wrote:
yourname wrote:
unless you're a real audiophile, you won't know the difference.

Even if you are, you won't know the difference. Time domain
reflectometry comparison between Monster Cable and #14 zip cord showed
no difference in signal quality in a band from 0 to 100MHz.

I don't know about _your_ ears, but mine don't go quite that high...
The point about solid wire looking like power wiring is valid, though.
As low voltage cable, it'd have to be in different junction boxes and so
on. Something to consider - if you run that blue flexible conduit ('Smurf
tubing' I've heard it called), then you can always pull new cables in as
technology and your needs change. That's the one thing I didn't do when
I built my house, that I regret not doing.

Dave Hinz

In article r4qTd.475$_G.97@clgrps12, Ted Edwards says...

Even if you are, you won't know the difference. Time domain
reflectometry comparison between Monster Cable and #14 zip cord showed
no difference in signal quality in a band from 0 to 100MHz.

Ah but Ted. You should know more than anyone that TDR
measurements won't show the real effect taht true audiophools
can hear. Their ears are so much more sensitive than those
instruments.

How else could they justify buying those gold-plated power
connectors?

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

Jim,
Just goes to show ya how much you know. Ted probably knows how to build a
TDR that'll show minute differences in the gold plating.

Bob Swinney
"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article r4qTd.475$_G.97@clgrps12, Ted Edwards says...

Even if you are, you won't know the difference. Time domain
reflectometry comparison between Monster Cable and #14 zip cord showed
no difference in signal quality in a band from 0 to 100MHz.

Ah but Ted. You should know more than anyone that TDR
measurements won't show the real effect taht true audiophools
can hear. Their ears are so much more sensitive than those
instruments.

How else could they justify buying those gold-plated power
connectors?

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

In article , Robert Swinney says...

Jim,
Just goes to show ya how much you know. Ted probably knows how to build a
TDR that'll show minute differences in the gold plating.

I do know that all gold-plating is not the same. Trompeter
(the connector guys) understand that you cannot strike with
nickel first under the gold, like many folks do.

You actually can see the distortion from that.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

Actually, your 14/2 will perform far superior to most of the crap
usually sold as speaker wire to clueless audiophiles. Do it!


Harry C.

wrote: (clip)Do it!
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I agree. Monster cables are a marketing rip-off. I heard a talk by an
audio engineer in which this was thoroughly analyzed. The main benefit of
those very large cables is in the profit margin. Then there is the placebo
effect, which can seem very real to a believer.

"Leo Lichtman" wrote in message
...

wrote: (clip)Do it!
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I agree. Monster cables are a marketing rip-off. I heard a talk by an
audio engineer in which this was thoroughly analyzed. The main benefit of
those very large cables is in the profit margin. Then there is the
placebo
effect, which can seem very real to a believer.


I used to know a self-styled "audio expert" who once showed me an article
in which five amplifiers were evaluated by an engineer. Four of them were
in
the $2000 to $5000 range. The fifth was a popular unit which sold for about
$250. His rather extensive testing rated the $250 unit right in the middle
of
the pack. My erstwhile buddy used this to argue that the testing was
invalid
and that the engineer didn't know anything about what he was doing.

He then went on to claim that engineers and musicians tended to own the
worst
sounding systems....

On the other hand, one of the finest sounding systems I'd ever heard was in
a little recording studio. This was many years ago, long before CD's, etc.
The
record player was a transcription player with a 35 lb turntable (lots of
metal
content...). The speakers were a gargantuan pair of Altec Lansing Voice of
the
Theatres. And the amplifier was a $69.95 DynaKit... And, as I recall, the
speaker wires were lamp cord...

Personally, and I'm an engineer by trade, tend to suggest landscape lighting
wire
in higher powered systems or for long runs, although lamp cord works just
fine
for lower power/short runs. Lamp cord is typically AWG 16 or AWG 18.
Landscape lighting wire looks like lamp cord, but comes in AWG 12 and
AWG 14. And it is highly flexible and abrasion-resistant.

But, if you are going to plant it in the walls where it won't be flexed,
your
plain old power wire (Romex, whatever...) will work just fine. The problem
is what to use where you come out of the wall. I'd run the wire between a
couple boxes and put on a blank outlet plate in which I'd installed a couple
pairs of banana jacks. Then use lamp cord for the short runs between the
amplifier and jacks and the speakers and jacks. Or you can use a couple
1/4 in. phone jacks (you can get right angle phone plugs that won't protrude
more than about 1/4 in. from the wall...)

One thing NOT to do is to use the ground wire as a "common" and the
white and black wires as the "hot" speaker wires. You WILL get some
crosstalk between the two channels. But, if you have some, say, 14/3 with
ground, you can, say, use the black and white for one channel and the
red and ground (bare) for the other. For the same reason, use a plastic
outlet plate, not a metal one, to keep the two channels separate, should
you elect to use phone jacks.

Jerry

As I think on it though, problems arise if someone thinks the wire is in
fact part of the house wiring[at some point in the distant future] and
hooks it up as such.....might want ot differentiate

yourname wrote:

As I think on it though, problems arise if someone thinks the wire is in
fact part of the house wiring[at some point in the distant future] and
hooks it up as such.....might want ot differentiate

Good point. However, a fine point marking pen will write on the jacket.
I would suggest writing "SPEAKER" every 6' or so along the wire.

Ted

On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 00:52:40 GMT, "Leo Lichtman"
wrote:


wrote: (clip)Do it!
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I agree. Monster cables are a marketing rip-off. I heard a talk by an
audio engineer in which this was thoroughly analyzed. The main benefit of
those very large cables is in the profit margin. Then there is the placebo
effect, which can seem very real to a believer.

They look impressive, personally, I listen to everything with
earphones to overcome tinnitus.
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

I am building a new house and I want to hardwire it for speakers. Is there
any reason not to use plain solid strand 14/2 NMD 90 wire. I have this wire
on hand and it is half the cost of speaker wire.



Be aware that any length of wire in excess of about 15 feet can act as
an antenna and bring unwanted signals down the line to the amp where it
can get amplified and sent back up the wire and through the speakers.

I used to run a College sound recording studio and a CCTV studio and had
major problems at one stage from the local radio station signal getting
into the system through the long mic leads (we were in 'line of sight'
with their powerful transmitter tower). The problem was eventually
traced back to a single mic lead with a 'ground fault'.

I am also a radio ham and at one time lived in an apartment building and
never caused any interference problems until the 'super' came home one
day with a new 'surround sound' system and I was blasting right through
it whenever I transmitted! The problem was nothing to do with my set up
(I hadn't changed anything) but rather it was his very long runs of
cheap speaker wire picking up my signal and feeding it back through the
very poor filtering on his 'cheapo' amp. The solution in this case was
to fit ferrite rings/loops at either end of his speaker leads and he
never heard me again.

If you are going to run long speaker leads it may pay you to invest in a
few ferrite rings/loops and save yourself a lot of headaches down the
road. They are readily available from the likes of Radio Shack at
reasonable prices.

--
Larry Green

"Larry Green" wrote in message
.. .

If you are going to run long speaker leads it may pay you to invest in a
few ferrite rings/loops and save yourself a lot of headaches down the
road. They are readily available from the likes of Radio Shack at
reasonable prices.


Just remember that when you go into Radio Shack, speak very slowly and don't
ask for "ferrite rings, ferrite supressors or even the word ferrite." Just
ask for those donut looking thingies that you've seen on some wires before.

Shawn

"Larry Green" wrote in message
.. .

If you are going to run long speaker leads it may pay you to invest in a
few ferrite rings/loops and save yourself a lot of headaches down the
road. They are readily available from the likes of Radio Shack at
reasonable prices.



Just remember that when you go into Radio Shack, speak very slowly and don't
ask for "ferrite rings, ferrite supressors or even the word ferrite." Just
ask for those donut looking thingies that you've seen on some wires before.

Shawn


LOL........very true........the Shack 'droids' around here seem
particularly dense too. They would probably send you down the road to
Tim Horton's or Krispy Kreme if you asked for a donut!

--
Larry Green

"Larry Green" wrote in message
.. .
snip-----

The solution in this case was
to fit ferrite rings/loops at either end of his speaker leads and he
never heard me again.

If you are going to run long speaker leads it may pay you to invest in a
few ferrite rings/loops and save yourself a lot of headaches down the
road. They are readily available from the likes of Radio Shack at
reasonable prices.

--
Larry Green

That's a great tip, Larry. Would you mind detailing how these ferrite rings
are installed? In my case, consider that I'd have my wire running in EMT
for one set of speakers, and in PVC sch. 40 plastic in the other. Each
set terminates in a steel box, and the runs would be made of stranded 10
gage THHN wire, color coded to insure proper phasing. I'd like to make
sure we don't get any noise that isn't a part of the music!

Thanks---

Harold

Most designs of the ferrites just clamp over the wires.
Do make sure that the wires for one channel aren't connected to the other
channel as some amps use differential drive to get the power up for the
output. Even just if you have a "correct" hot and ground, the current is
high enough that one channel will feed to the other if you tie the grounds
together anywhere in the system.
The wire size is a good one for higher power amps as you will be driving a 8
ohm load generally and any resistance between the speaker and the amp will
drop the quality of the sound by allowing the speaker to resonate more as
the impedance of the wire is increasing the source impedance that it sees.

--
Why isn't there an Ozone Hole at the NORTH Pole?

"Larry Green" wrote in message
.. .
snip-----

The solution in this case was

to fit ferrite rings/loops at either end of his speaker leads and he
never heard me again.

If you are going to run long speaker leads it may pay you to invest in a
few ferrite rings/loops and save yourself a lot of headaches down the
road. They are readily available from the likes of Radio Shack at
reasonable prices.

--
Larry Green


That's a great tip, Larry. Would you mind detailing how these ferrite rings
are installed? In my case, consider that I'd have my wire running in EMT
for one set of speakers, and in PVC sch. 40 plastic in the other. Each
set terminates in a steel box, and the runs would be made of stranded 10
gage THHN wire, color coded to insure proper phasing. I'd like to make
sure we don't get any noise that isn't a part of the music!

Thanks---

Harold


Hi Harold,

Ferrite 'noise suppressors' can come in several forms such as beads,
rings, hinged 'rectangles' and cylinders. The fitting of each type is
different in each case.

Ferrite Beads
These are 'normally' very small (less than 1/4" dia.) and are slipped
onto a wire before it is attached to a piece of equipment. Usually used
internally on a device.

Ferrite Rings
These can come in a range of sizes up to several inches in dia. They can
also be 'salvaged' from the back of old speakers or TV tubes (be careful
of high voltages if messing with TV tubes even if they are switched off
and unplugged!) To fit a ring to speaker wire you simply pass the wire
around the ring several times by going through the middle and around the
outside. Six to eight turns are normally sufficient to block any stray
signals. Make sure the 'turns' are equally spaced around the ring.

Ferrite 'Rectangles'
These are the most common type found in Radio Shack and are two 'U'
shaped pieces of ferrite mounted in a hinged plastic holder with a clip
to keep the 'loop' closed. Undo the clip, open the 'loop' and wind
several turns of your speaker wire around one half of the 'loop' then
cross over and wind the wire around the other half. If you wind
clockwise on one side wind counter-clockwise on the other side. Close
the loop and re-clip when you are done.

Ferrite Cylinders
These can come as either solid or split (like the 'rectangles'). You
have more than likely seen this type many times and not realized what it
is. The 'bumps' on a computer monitor cable are ferrite cylinders to
prevent stray signals getting to the monitor. For solid cylinders you
simply pass the wire through the hole in the centre and hold them in
place with either electrical tape or a small cable tie at either end.
Split ones 'normally' come in a hinged plastic fitting. Undo the
fitting, slip the speaker wire into the 'slot' between the two halves
and close the fitting again. If the cylinder slides on the wire use
either electrical tape or a small cable tie at either end to stop it
slipping.

Whatever type you use they have to be fitted at each end of each set of
'long' wires in your system (the shorter wires are not 'normally'
affected) as close to the device in question as possible (i.e. where the
wires connect to the amp and speaker). A short length of wire (say up to
6") sticking out of the 'connection' end is OK if you don't have room to
fit all the ferrite rings/loops/cylinders close to the amp.

HTH

--
Larry Green

Larry Green wrote:

Ferrite Rings
These can come in a range of sizes up to several inches in dia. They can
also be 'salvaged' from the back of old speakers or TV tubes


The ferrite used in permanent magnets has a different composition than
the linear ferrites used in attenuator cores and is already in
saturation. In addition to adding a little inductance, the material in
an attenuator core is "lossy" at RF frequencies, turning the RF energy
into heat.

Kevin Gallimore




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"Larry Green" wrote in message
...

Whatever type you use they have to be fitted at each end of each set of
'long' wires in your system


Why both ends? My monitor cable has only one at the 15 pin plug end. Is
the other one inside the monitor case?

Shawn

"Larry Green" wrote in message
...

Whatever type you use they have to be fitted at each end of each set of
'long' wires in your system



Why both ends? My monitor cable has only one at the 15 pin plug end. Is
the other one inside the monitor case?

Shawn



There could be (and possibly is) internal filtering on your monitor but
my guess is the manufacturer was trying to save a few cents/pennies. It
is certainly more 'usual' to see them fitted at each end particularly in
the case of long speaker wires.

--
Larry Green

Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:

That's a great tip, Larry. Would you mind detailing how these ferrite rings
are installed?

With the controls of the system set for normal listening, stop the CD,
tape or whatever. Turn up the volume control about 5 or 10 db and
listen carefully. If you don't hear any stray signals, as they say,
"Don't fix it if it ain't broke." If you do hear a bit of a local
brodcast station or ???, try the ferrite beads.

Ted

"Ted Edwards" wrote in message
news:ciqTd.2339$ab2.2262@edtnps89...
Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:

That's a great tip, Larry. Would you mind detailing how these ferrite
rings
are installed?

With the controls of the system set for normal listening, stop the CD,
tape or whatever. Turn up the volume control about 5 or 10 db and
listen carefully. If you don't hear any stray signals, as they say,
"Don't fix it if it ain't broke." If you do hear a bit of a local
brodcast station or ???, try the ferrite beads.

Ted

Thanks, Ted. Now I understand what I'd be looking for.

One question I've had for years is why I have some (very little, but
noticeable) 60 hz in one channel and not the other. Been that way since I
bought the Mc2300 way back in '75. Any clues?

Harold

Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:

That's a great tip, Larry. Would you mind detailing how these ferrite
rings
are installed?


With the controls of the system set for normal listening, stop the CD,
tape or whatever. Turn up the volume control about 5 or 10 db and
listen carefully. If you don't hear any stray signals, as they say,
"Don't fix it if it ain't broke." If you do hear a bit of a local
brodcast station or ???, try the ferrite beads.



Yup....no point in fixing what ain't there! However, long speaker cable
runs *are* prone to picking up signals and sometimes those signals may
be short lived (a passing car transmitting etc.) As the ferrite
'filters' are fitted close to the respective equipment and not in the
wall I would suggest you run the cables and try it. Then if you are
getting problems you know how to fix it.


--
Larry Green

I'm down to the point where I run nothing but 3/4" flex plastic conduit
for all my data/audio lines. That way I can upgrade to whatever is the
current state of the art. Who would have thought that Cat 5e cable would
now be obsolete when I did some remodeling 5 years ago? Especially since
5e was not available when I did it!!!

habbi wrote:
I am building a new house and I want to hardwire it for speakers. Is there
any reason not to use plain solid strand 14/2 NMD 90 wire. I have this wire
on hand and it is half the cost of speaker wire.

RoyJ wrote:
current state of the art. Who would have thought that Cat 5e cable would
now be obsolete

Have you got faster hardware that can use better such as fiber optic?

Ted

On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 19:56:57 GMT, Ted Edwards wrote:
RoyJ wrote:
current state of the art. Who would have thought that Cat 5e cable would
now be obsolete

Have you got faster hardware that can use better such as fiber optic?

That's why I suggest the flexible conduit. Yank out the cat5, put in
the gigabit ethernet fiber. Next time it'll be something else.

"habbi" wrote in message
...
I am building a new house and I want to hardwire it for speakers. Is there
any reason not to use plain solid strand 14/2 NMD 90 wire. I have this
wire
on hand and it is half the cost of speaker wire.

I'm no EE, but I can't help but feel that the monster cable craze is
*somewhat* over rated. I fully intend to run stranded 10 gage THHN wires
to my speaker locations in the new house I'm building, and out to the shop,
underground, in conduit.

Harold

Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:
I'm no EE, but I can't help but feel that the monster cable craze is
*somewhat* over rated.

I am an EE (well, technically I am, but I've never practiced it) and
I've never understood this craze with speaker wire size. There are only
a couple of fundamental parameters that apply: resistance, capacitance,
and inductance.

Resistance: if you deliver 100 watts (an enormance amount) to an 8 ohm
speaker, 3.5 amps will flow. Wire resistance has 2 effects: heating and
voltage drop. In 16 ga wire, the current density will be about
1ma/circ-mill. I.e., heating will be minimal. 200 feet of 16 ga wire
(100 feet each way) has a resistance of .8 ohms. Carrying 3.5 amps the
wire will have a voltage drop of 2.8 v. Putting it another way, the
wire will consume 10 watts (10%). I'm not sure how this is relevant
since voltage/power drop is just compensated for by cranking up the
volume. So 16 ga wire should more than meet the resistance requirement.

I wouldn't think that the capacitance and inductance of the wire could
be anything but negligible. And I can't see how the wire size would
have a significant effect on them even if they aren't negligible.

There is another consideration: that of the wire acting as an antenna.
This wouldn't effect the loudspeaker, but could feedback to the
amplifier. Again, I would think that wire size would not be a
consideration for this effect.

I fully intend to run stranded 10 gage THHN wires to my speaker locations ...

Use 14 ga: it will be a lot cheaper, it will be a lot easier, and it
will be way more that necessary.

But don't take my word for it - I'm sure that this has been debated
endlessly on the "hi-fi" NG's - Google is your friend.

Bob

Bob Engelhardt wrote:

Resistance: if you deliver 100 watts (an enormance amount) to an 8 ohm
speaker, 3.5 amps will flow. Wire resistance has 2 effects: heating and
voltage drop. In 16 ga wire, the current density will be about
1ma/circ-mill. I.e., heating will be minimal. 200 feet of 16 ga wire
(100 feet each way) has a resistance of .8 ohms. Carrying 3.5 amps the
wire will have a voltage drop of 2.8 v. Putting it another way, the
wire will consume 10 watts (10%). I'm not sure how this is relevant
since voltage/power drop is just compensated for by cranking up the
volume. So 16 ga wire should more than meet the resistance requirement.

I would go for #14 or even #12 on a very long run. 0.8 ohms will have
no serious effect except for two considerations: An 8ohm speaker will
have resonances giving rise to frequencies where the impedance is
considerably less. Speaker damping depends, to some extent, on the
source impedance driving it. It would probably be advantageous to keep
it down to about 0.1 ohm.

For long runs, like from house to shop, it would be much better to run
shielded wire carrying line level (~0.1 to 1 volt) signals to an amp in
the shop. That amp doesn't need to be all that fancy to give pleasant
listening over the sound of a running lathe. :-) 'course, if you build
your own, ...

I wouldn't think that the capacitance and inductance of the wire could
be anything but negligible. And I can't see how the wire size would
have a significant effect on them even if they aren't negligible.

Right. 30KHz has a wavelength of about 100m (~300') and a propogation
delay of the order of 100nsec in 100'. It ain't going to effect any
audio signal even at frequencies only your dog can hear.

But don't take my word for it - I'm sure that this has been debated
endlessly on the "hi-fi" NG's - Google is your friend.

Forget it!! There is more BS in the field of audio than any other -
even car sales! Unless you have the math, physics and electronics to
adequately check out every post you'll do nothing but get confused.
And, typically, the more serious the "audiophile", the more used hay
you'll get.

Ted

Ted Edwards wrote:


Forget it!! There is more BS in the field of audio than any other -

Antennas come pretty close, though.

Kevin Gallimore

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On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 16:30:02 -0500, axolotl wrote:
Ted Edwards wrote:


Forget it!! There is more BS in the field of audio than any other -

Antennas come pretty close, though.

Like the stick-on antenna you can buy for the _back_ of your
cellphone, for instance?

"Bob Engelhardt" wrote in message
...
Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:
I'm no EE, but I can't help but feel that the monster cable craze is
*somewhat* over rated.

I am an EE (well, technically I am, but I've never practiced it) and
I've never understood this craze with speaker wire size. There are only
a couple of fundamental parameters that apply: resistance, capacitance,
and inductance.

Resistance: if you deliver 100 watts (an enormance amount) to an 8 ohm
speaker, 3.5 amps will flow. Wire resistance has 2 effects: heating and
voltage drop. In 16 ga wire, the current density will be about
1ma/circ-mill. I.e., heating will be minimal. 200 feet of 16 ga wire
(100 feet each way) has a resistance of .8 ohms. Carrying 3.5 amps the
wire will have a voltage drop of 2.8 v. Putting it another way, the
wire will consume 10 watts (10%). I'm not sure how this is relevant
since voltage/power drop is just compensated for by cranking up the
volume. So 16 ga wire should more than meet the resistance requirement.

I wouldn't think that the capacitance and inductance of the wire could
be anything but negligible. And I can't see how the wire size would
have a significant effect on them even if they aren't negligible.

There is another consideration: that of the wire acting as an antenna.
This wouldn't effect the loudspeaker, but could feedback to the
amplifier. Again, I would think that wire size would not be a
consideration for this effect.

I fully intend to run stranded 10 gage THHN wires to my speaker
locations ...

Use 14 ga: it will be a lot cheaper, it will be a lot easier, and it
will be way more that necessary.

But don't take my word for it - I'm sure that this has been debated
endlessly on the "hi-fi" NG's - Google is your friend.

Bob


Thanks, Bob. I appreciate your candor and excellent information.

Unfortunately, I'm one of those guys that thinks if a little power is good,
more is better. I currently run a McIntosh 2300, rated at 300
watts/channel, and will meet specs pulling over 400. I, on occasion,
drive it that hard. I have three sets of speakers (two sets of JBL S8R's
and a Paragon) and I haven't exactly abandoned my desire for a larger
amplifier, thinking I may go to a 600 watt/channel model. Yeah, I'm
nuts. g

One of my speaker sets will be a great distance from the amplifier. As the
crow flies, perhaps only 60 feet, but as the wire runs, it's likely to be
about 120. I figure using #10 wire isn't a bad idea, considering the
amperage involved is considerable, and the run long. Please feel free to
correct me if I'm wrong. My only claim to this stuff is my love for the
gear and music, I certainly am not knowledgeable.

Considering the additional information I've provided, would you still
recommend using the #14 wire? I can't help but feel the line loss could be
minimized with the #10.

Harold

Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:
....
Unfortunately, I'm one of those guys that thinks if a little power is good,
more is better. I currently run a McIntosh 2300, rated at 300
watts/channel, and will meet specs pulling over 400. I, on occasion,
drive it that hard. ...

Jimminy Crickets!! (as my mother would say)

thinking I may go to a 600 watt/channel model. ...
Considering the additional information I've provided, would you still
recommend using the #14 wire? ...

Never mind what I said before, I definitely think that you would not be
happy with anything less than #10 wire. (How's that for not answering
the question?)

Bob

In article ,

Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:
thinking I may go to a 600 watt/channel model. ...
Considering the additional information I've provided, would you still
recommend using the #14 wire? ...

Bob Engelhardt wrote:
Never mind what I said before, I definitely think that you would not be
happy with anything less than #10 wire. (How's that for not answering
the question?)

Oh, heck, run some 4/0 welding cables...Or just put the conduit to hold
them in place, slap the speaker on one end of it, and a speaker grille
on the far end ;-)

Actually, I think the earlier suggestion to run shielded signal cables
and place an amplifier near the far-away speakers is the best solution
for long runs.

Your long run is "about 120 feet". Here's the resistance for 120 feet of
copper wire, and the effect on 600 watts into 8 ohms. 600 watts into 8
ohms is 69.76 volts at 8.6 amps. The volts are the voltage drop for 120
feet of wire at that amperage, and the watts are the power dropped in
the wire, out of 600 watts. I suppose you should double all this since
the wire is to and fro, or 240 feet total.

14ga = 0.3 ohms 2.66 volts 23 watts
12ga = 0.2 1.67 15
10ga = 0.12 1.05 9
8ga = 0.07 0.66 5.6
6ga = 0.05 0.41 3.5
4ga = 0.03 0.26 2.2
4/0 = 0.006 0.05 0.4

So if you really want to satisfy the criteria (someone mentioned, don't
know how much it matters, personally) that you should keep speaker wire
resistance to 0.1 ohms, you'd need to go to 6ga for the 120 foot (240
feet round-trip) run. And you'll have to run back to the house to change
the volume. If you put in a sheilded signal cable, carrying essentially
no power, you can use tiny wire, and you'd have direct volume control in
the shop, where those speakers are (if I understand your setup
correctly).

--
Cats, Coffee, Chocolate...vices to live by

Bob Engelhardt wrote:
Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:
watts/channel, and will meet specs pulling over 400. I, on occasion,
drive it that hard. ...

Jimminy Crickets!! (as my mother would say)

thinking I may go to a 600 watt/channel model. ...
Considering the additional information I've provided, would you still
recommend using the #14 wire? ...

Never mind what I said before, I definitely think that you would not be
happy with anything less than #10 wire. (How's that for not answering
the question?)

You gota understand. Harold is building a house. I understand it will
make St. Paul's Cathedral look like a hovel. When you plan to put on a
smorg for 200 people you have to a music system than do the Good Thing.
VBG

Ted

PS: Harold and I have been arguing about this for just ages! :-)

On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 10:43:23 -0500, Bob Engelhardt
vaguely proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:

remove ns from my header address to reply via email

I am an EE (well, technically I am, but I've never practiced it) and
I've never understood this craze with speaker wire size. There are only
a couple of fundamental parameters that apply: resistance, capacitance,
and inductance.

Resistance: if you deliver 100 watts (an enormance amount) to an 8 ohm
speaker, 3.5 amps will flow. Wire resistance has 2 effects: heating and
voltage drop. In 16 ga wire, the current density will be about
1ma/circ-mill. I.e., heating will be minimal. 200 feet of 16 ga wire
(100 feet each way) has a resistance of .8 ohms. Carrying 3.5 amps the
wire will have a voltage drop of 2.8 v. Putting it another way, the
wire will consume 10 watts (10%). I'm not sure how this is relevant
since voltage/power drop is just compensated for by cranking up the
volume. So 16 ga wire should more than meet the resistance requirement.

IIRC the problem is not power loss, but damping of the speakers.
Amplifiers are designed with extremely low output impedances (in the
order of fractions of an Ohm, again IIRC. They had damping factors of
figures like 100:1 = 8/100 ohms or thereabouts.), so that they will
act as a near short circuit (dynamic brake) to the speaker when not
sending power. The damping prevents the speakers from oscillating from
their own inherent springiness, because this causes distortion.

Also IIRC, the amplifier needs to be able to be a variable current
source without being a voltage dropper as the speaker sees it in
circuit, to better control the speaker.

Adding resistance by wire will raise the output impedance, thus
lessening the damping.

If your amp had a 100:1 damping factor (a pretty good start) then your
0.8 ohms of wire will significantly affect that figure. If the damping
factor was only say 20:1, then the amp is not as good, you are not as
critical, and the wire will be fine because it's only causing a
relatively small change! G

On the other hand, I have never used monster cable. G

METALWORKING CONTENT. Think MIG Welders. They need to be constant
voltage, Add a long run of wire and you start to see "distortion" of
the welding behaviour! GG