It looks like this will be happening sooner than later...

http://www.forbes.com/infoimaging/fe...ap1488615.html


http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...rintogetabreak

So what do you think of having a box recording everything you do and
when you do it in your car..or truck..or motorcycle?

TMT

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
om...
It looks like this will be happening sooner than later...

http://www.forbes.com/infoimaging/fe...ap1488615.html



http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...rintogetabreak

So what do you think of having a box recording everything you do and
when you do it in your car..or truck..or motorcycle?

TMT

I wonder if they will do a 6v version for my 1954 m/c or a positive earth
version for my 1964 car - I think not GGG

Andrew Mawson

On Mon, 9 Aug 2004 15:19:07 +0000 (UTC), "Andrew Mawson"
wrote:

||
||"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
.com...
|| It looks like this will be happening sooner than later...
||
|| http://www.forbes.com/infoimaging/fe...ap1488615.html
||
||
||
||http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...rintogetabreak
||
|| So what do you think of having a box recording everything you do and
|| when you do it in your car..or truck..or motorcycle?
||
|| TMT
||
||I wonder if they will do a 6v version for my 1954 m/c or a positive earth
||version for my 1964 car - I think not GGG

I don't believe I've seen postive ground as one of the specs for OBD II
Texas Parts Guy

Rex B wrote:

On Mon, 9 Aug 2004 15:19:07 +0000 (UTC), "Andrew Mawson"
wrote:

||
||"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
.com...
|| It looks like this will be happening sooner than later...
||
|| http://www.forbes.com/infoimaging/fe...ap1488615.html
||
||
||
||http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...rintogetabreak
||
|| So what do you think of having a box recording everything you do and
|| when you do it in your car..or truck..or motorcycle?
||
|| TMT
||
||I wonder if they will do a 6v version for my 1954 m/c or a positive earth
||version for my 1964 car - I think not GGG

I don't believe I've seen postive ground as one of the specs for OBD II
Texas Parts Guy
Easy - on-board generator. Have a bride rectifier where the AC is hooked to the DC input.
So the diodes steer correctly in either design. - Oh **** - just told them...

Martin

--
Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn
@ home at Lion's Lair with our computer
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder

Martin H. Eastburn wrote:

Rex B wrote:

On Mon, 9 Aug 2004 15:19:07 +0000 (UTC), "Andrew Mawson"
wrote:

||
||"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
.com...
|| It looks like this will be happening sooner than later...
||
|| http://www.forbes.com/infoimaging/fe...ap1488615.html
||
||
||
||http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...rintogetabreak

||
|| So what do you think of having a box recording everything you do and
|| when you do it in your car..or truck..or motorcycle?
||
|| TMT
||
||I wonder if they will do a 6v version for my 1954 m/c or a positive
earth
||version for my 1964 car - I think not GGG

I don't believe I've seen postive ground as one of the specs for OBD
II Texas Parts Guy

Easy - on-board generator. Have a bride rectifier where the AC is
hooked to the DC input.
So the diodes steer correctly in either design. - Oh **** - just told
them...

Martin

Spell checker or brain dead - bridge not bride !

--
Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn
@ home at Lion's Lair with our computer
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder

On Mon, 9 Aug 2004 15:19:07 +0000 (UTC), "Andrew Mawson"
vaguely proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:

remove ns from my header address to reply via email

Nooooo...."they" will stop you using those vehicles! G?

I wonder if they will do a 6v version for my 1954 m/c or a positive earth
version for my 1964 car - I think not GGG

Andrew Mawson


************************************************** ***
It's not the milk and honey we hate. It's having it
rammed down our throats.

On 9 Aug 2004 07:34:24 -0700,
(Too_Many_Tools) vaguely proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:

remove ns from my header address to reply via email

She....no...I am not going there.

So what do you think of having a box recording everything you do and
when you do it in your car..or truck..or motorcycle?

TMT

************************************************** ***
It's not the milk and honey we hate. It's having it
rammed down our throats.

On 9 Aug 2004 07:34:24 -0700,
(Too_Many_Tools) vaguely proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:

remove ns from my header address to reply via email

It looks like this will be happening sooner than later...
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...rintogetabreak

So what do you think of having a box recording everything you do and
when you do it in your car..or truck..or motorcycle?

These are really two completely separate messages. The crash
investigations can be entirely anonymous, and only involve crashes,
not ongoing checking. Even if they they did have non-anonymous,
ongoing checking, I still fear Govt less than Insurance (etc)
companies.

"In two new tests, car owners will be able to let insurance companies
monitor their driving via new technology in exchange for lower rates."

Now _that_ ****es me off! I do not work for a government agency (I
have in the past), and get ****ty with bureaucracy as much as the
average person (if not as much as some here).

But I do believe that in our "democratic" society, the Govt is _put
there_ for our general good, the aims of Govt are benevolent, and
there are controls to at least moderate their excesses.

Insurance companies long ago gave up any pretence of _that_ image. For
instance I saw recently that they are starting to ask for your genetic
history before life insuring you. They are setting about to take _no_
risks for themselves.

And when do we start getting mobile messages with ads based on our
driving habits etc? G
************************************************** ***
It's not the milk and honey we hate. It's having it
rammed down our throats.

On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 06:41:53 +0800, Old Nick
wrote:

On 9 Aug 2004 07:34:24 -0700,
(Too_Many_Tools) vaguely proposed a theory
......and in reply I say!:

remove ns from my header address to reply via email

It looks like this will be happening sooner than later...
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...rintogetabreak

So what do you think of having a box recording everything you do and
when you do it in your car..or truck..or motorcycle?

These are really two completely separate messages. The crash
investigations can be entirely anonymous, and only involve crashes,
not ongoing checking. Even if they they did have non-anonymous,
ongoing checking, I still fear Govt less than Insurance (etc)
companies.

"In two new tests, car owners will be able to let insurance companies
monitor their driving via new technology in exchange for lower rates."

Now _that_ ****es me off! I do not work for a government agency (I
have in the past), and get ****ty with bureaucracy as much as the
average person (if not as much as some here).

But I do believe that in our "democratic" society, the Govt is _put
there_ for our general good, the aims of Govt are benevolent, and
there are controls to at least moderate their excesses.

Insurance companies long ago gave up any pretence of _that_ image. For
instance I saw recently that they are starting to ask for your genetic
history before life insuring you. They are setting about to take _no_
risks for themselves.


Even if you buy a second identical caddy and put it in safe storage
they still wouldn't let ya to save money if you totaled your's and
gave them the pristine one. Rules rules rules ...


And when do we start getting mobile messages with ads based on our
driving habits etc? G
************************************************* ****
It's not the milk and honey we hate. It's having it
rammed down our throats.

In article , Old Nick says...

Insurance companies long ago gave up any pretence of _that_ image. For
instance I saw recently that they are starting to ask for your genetic
history before life insuring you. They are setting about to take _no_
risks for themselves.

We've had this discussion here before - and I think the end result
will be that the customers will be divided into two catagories.
The first are those who have been tested and found to have a
predisposition to some disease. The second are those who were
tested, and do *not* have that problem.

The first catagory will be unable to purchase insurance, because
as one insurance exec said, 'we don't insure burning buildings.'

The second catagory doesn't *need* insurance.

The one bright spot in this future is, it seems to have no
need for insurance companies.

Think about it: insurance is all about spreading risk around
amongst a pool of insured. Key here is that the risk is
statistically random. Once it becomes predictable, the entire
house of cards falls down.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

On 9 Aug 2004 17:21:10 -0700, jim rozen
vaguely proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:

remove ns from my header address to reply via email

Interesting Jim. I was sort of heading down that path as I pondered
this this morning, while seting up for the day.

I think it was Heinlein that considered insurance to be simply
gambling against yourself. But it does have its place.

I would really love to see the insurance guys crash (and I have a Mom
and Pop bunch of shares in some company or other) because they have
lost the plot and distorted the whole, almost socialistic, idea of
insurance, where they could extract a reasonable amount of pay for
managing the spread of risk, into a maximise profit, grow grow grow
thing. If they crashed, because people actually _did_ stop insuring or
were uninsurable, then maybe we'd get back to balance.

Knowing the masses (and I _am_ insured for various things, even though
I have paid ten (hah!) times over what I have ever claimed) I don't
hope for too much. There is a lot of fear and inertia involved.

Them and banks, and "cooperatives"....grumble grumble.

BUT. You might be right. I insured motorcycles for a couple of years
with a company, then had a write-off. Not my fault. But I hit an
itinerant pedestrian. Then I was rear-ended by a drunk driver (no
insurance, you see) 3 months later. They stopped insuring me. Maybe
they _will_ do themselves out of the market! G I mean _I_ stopped
riding bikes! G

We've had this discussion here before - and I think the end result
will be that the customers will be divided into two catagories.
Think about it: insurance is all about spreading risk around
amongst a pool of insured. Key here is that the risk is
statistically random. Once it becomes predictable, the entire
house of cards falls down.

************************************************** ***
It's not the milk and honey we hate. It's having it
rammed down our throats.

In article , Old Nick says...

I would really love to see the insurance guys crash (and I have a Mom
and Pop bunch of shares in some company or other) because they have
lost the plot and distorted the whole, almost socialistic, idea of
insurance, where they could extract a reasonable amount of pay for
managing the spread of risk, into a maximise profit, grow grow grow
thing. If they crashed, because people actually _did_ stop insuring or
were uninsurable, then maybe we'd get back to balance.

I think this is already starting to happen. A lot of the younger,
self employed guys I know are uninsured, because they can't afford
the premiums.

Those are the guys who are basically healthy and won't be putting
in a lot of claims. So the companies are left with a pool of
older folks who have a higher risk rate.

I don't want the companies to crash. I'd just like to see some
hard numbers on:

How many dollars are paid in premiums each year, in the US,
and how many dollars actually get sent to pay for care?

IOW what overall precentage of the health care dollar winds
up as profit in the insurance companies tally sheet?

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

On 9 Aug 2004 20:01:32 -0700, jim rozen
wrote:

I think this is already starting to happen. A lot of the younger,
self employed guys I know are uninsured, because they can't afford
the premiums.

Its not just the young guys who cannot afford the premiums.

Gunner

"There is no difference between communism and socialism, except
in the means of achieving the same ultimate end: communism
proposes to enslave men by force, socialism - by vote. It is
merely the difference between murder and suicide."
- Ayn Rand, from "Foreign Policy Drains U.S. of Main
Weapons"

In article ,
jim rozen wrote:


The first catagory will be unable to purchase insurance, because
as one insurance exec said, 'we don't insure burning buildings.'

The second catagory doesn't *need* insurance.

The one bright spot in this future is, it seems to have no
need for insurance companies.

It has little to do with genetics, people don't get the medical care
they NEED, they get the medical care they WANT. My wife just spent
about $60K of 'insurance' money for breast cancer surgery, but she and
her doctors absolutely refused to even try a $135 test to see if the
cancer was growing or shrinking. It looked to me like unnecessary
surgery, and she still has the exact same breast pain that she went to
the doctor for in the first place.

--
Free men own guns, slaves don't
www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5357/

Too_Many_Tools wrote:

It looks like this will be happening sooner than later...

http://www.forbes.com/infoimaging/fe...ap1488615.html


http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...rintogetabreak

So what do you think of having a box recording everything you do and
when you do it in your car..or truck..or motorcycle?

TMT
I think it sucks. I'd allow one if I had to only if I could erase upon will and
it was mine - e.g. copy write level - e.g. don't read it without signed authorization.

Insurance companies of all types could attach to it and run up rates, void long term
payment plans - e.g. pay into a plan for 20 years and get zapped for speeding on I5.

Martin

--
Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn
@ home at Lion's Lair with our computer
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
om...
It looks like this will be happening sooner than later...

http://www.forbes.com/infoimaging/fe...ap1488615.html



http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...rintogetabreak

So what do you think of having a box recording everything you do and
when you do it in your car..or truck..or motorcycle?

TMT

I think it is a perfect example of what happens when you have people in
large organizations with an insufficient amount of work. They "find" work.

I can save them the trouble of reviewing 43,000 accidents - people screw up
behind the wheel.

Steve.

On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 10:31:39 GMT, "SteveF" calmly
ranted:


"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
I think it is a perfect example of what happens when you have people in
large organizations with an insufficient amount of work. They "find" work.

Aren't these same people visualizing whirrled peas?


I can save them the trouble of reviewing 43,000 accidents - people screw up
behind the wheel.

Why not just crossreference cell phone logs at the time of the
accident?

"If you're too busy on your phone to pay attention while
driving, we're too busy to pay your claim, you fidiot."

--
-------------------------------------------------------
Never underestimate the innate animosity of inanimate objects.
----
http://diversify.com Dynamic Website Applications

Already standard practice in the UK to check mobile phone logs when
investigating an accident.

Larry Jaques wrote:

On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 10:31:39 GMT, "SteveF" calmly
ranted:

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
I think it is a perfect example of what happens when you have people in
large organizations with an insufficient amount of work. They "find" work.


Aren't these same people visualizing whirrled peas?


I can save them the trouble of reviewing 43,000 accidents - people screw up
behind the wheel.


Why not just crossreference cell phone logs at the time of the
accident?

"If you're too busy on your phone to pay attention while
driving, we're too busy to pay your claim, you fidiot."

On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 15:27:44 +0100, David Billington
vaguely proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:

remove ns from my header address to reply via email

But how can you check in-car DVD player timings...they have in-dash
ones here, and ones up on the front windscreen!

Already standard practice in the UK to check mobile phone logs when
investigating an accident.

Larry Jaques wrote:

On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 10:31:39 GMT, "SteveF" calmly
ranted:

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
I think it is a perfect example of what happens when you have people in
large organizations with an insufficient amount of work. They "find" work.


Aren't these same people visualizing whirrled peas?


I can save them the trouble of reviewing 43,000 accidents - people screw up
behind the wheel.


Why not just crossreference cell phone logs at the time of the
accident?

"If you're too busy on your phone to pay attention while
driving, we're too busy to pay your claim, you fidiot."


************************************************** ***
It's not the milk and honey we hate. It's having it
rammed down our throats.

Another incident that helped push this issue to the front burner...

http://slate.msn.com/id/2087207

One thing this case did was to emphasize the need for black boxes on
all vehicles involved in an accident.

A number of points that you might want to consider that would be
easily and very likely implemented in the next generation of Black
boxes that are being developed currently....

- When the boxes are implemented, you will not be able to deactivate
or remove them. Trying to will likely render the vehicle inoperative.

- If they are tampered with, they will record this fact which will
void all warranties and likely invite criminal charges.

- A very likely feature will have the box noting the highest speed in
the last hour of operation which would be accessible to any law
enforcement official in the field. Automated speeding tickets anyone?

- History of abusive vehicle operation that would void warranties.
Radiator, engine, transmission and brake abuse would be likely ones.

- History including runtime, mileage, times of vehicle operation that
will be the future log books of semi trucks. This could easily include
the overall weight of the truck and its load.

Remember that all these are easily implemented once you have the black
box in place.

Life is going to be interesting in the future on the open road...

On 10 Aug 2004 08:26:10 -0700, (Too_Many_Tools) wrote:
||- A very likely feature will have the box noting the highest speed in
||the last hour of operation which would be accessible to any law
||enforcement official in the field. Automated speeding tickets anyone?

I think the 5th Amendment may speak to this.


Texas Parts Guy

Too_Many_Tools wrote:
It looks like this will be happening sooner than later...

http://www.forbes.com/infoimaging/fe...ap1488615.html


http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...rintogetabreak

So what do you think of having a box recording everything you do and
when you do it in your car..or truck..or motorcycle?

Personally, I have no problem with it - if and only if it only records
30 mins, or stores 30 mins before airbag activation in addition, and
can only be accessed from inside the car.