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OT- Black Boxes in Cars
It looks like this will be happening sooner than later...
http://www.forbes.com/infoimaging/fe...ap1488615.html http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...rintogetabreak So what do you think of having a box recording everything you do and when you do it in your car..or truck..or motorcycle? TMT |
OT- Black Boxes in Cars
"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message om... It looks like this will be happening sooner than later... http://www.forbes.com/infoimaging/fe...ap1488615.html http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...rintogetabreak So what do you think of having a box recording everything you do and when you do it in your car..or truck..or motorcycle? TMT I wonder if they will do a 6v version for my 1954 m/c or a positive earth version for my 1964 car - I think not GGG Andrew Mawson |
OT- Black Boxes in Cars
On Mon, 9 Aug 2004 15:19:07 +0000 (UTC), "Andrew Mawson"
wrote: || ||"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message .com... || It looks like this will be happening sooner than later... || || http://www.forbes.com/infoimaging/fe...ap1488615.html || || || ||http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...rintogetabreak || || So what do you think of having a box recording everything you do and || when you do it in your car..or truck..or motorcycle? || || TMT || ||I wonder if they will do a 6v version for my 1954 m/c or a positive earth ||version for my 1964 car - I think not GGG I don't believe I've seen postive ground as one of the specs for OBD II Texas Parts Guy |
OT- Black Boxes in Cars
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OT- Black Boxes in Cars
On Mon, 9 Aug 2004 15:19:07 +0000 (UTC), "Andrew Mawson"
vaguely proposed a theory .......and in reply I say!: remove ns from my header address to reply via email Nooooo...."they" will stop you using those vehicles! G? I wonder if they will do a 6v version for my 1954 m/c or a positive earth version for my 1964 car - I think not GGG Andrew Mawson ************************************************** *** It's not the milk and honey we hate. It's having it rammed down our throats. |
OT- Black Boxes in Cars
On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 06:41:53 +0800, Old Nick
wrote: On 9 Aug 2004 07:34:24 -0700, (Too_Many_Tools) vaguely proposed a theory ......and in reply I say!: remove ns from my header address to reply via email It looks like this will be happening sooner than later... http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...rintogetabreak So what do you think of having a box recording everything you do and when you do it in your car..or truck..or motorcycle? These are really two completely separate messages. The crash investigations can be entirely anonymous, and only involve crashes, not ongoing checking. Even if they they did have non-anonymous, ongoing checking, I still fear Govt less than Insurance (etc) companies. "In two new tests, car owners will be able to let insurance companies monitor their driving via new technology in exchange for lower rates." Now _that_ ****es me off! I do not work for a government agency (I have in the past), and get ****ty with bureaucracy as much as the average person (if not as much as some here). But I do believe that in our "democratic" society, the Govt is _put there_ for our general good, the aims of Govt are benevolent, and there are controls to at least moderate their excesses. Insurance companies long ago gave up any pretence of _that_ image. For instance I saw recently that they are starting to ask for your genetic history before life insuring you. They are setting about to take _no_ risks for themselves. Even if you buy a second identical caddy and put it in safe storage they still wouldn't let ya to save money if you totaled your's and gave them the pristine one. Rules rules rules ... And when do we start getting mobile messages with ads based on our driving habits etc? G ************************************************* **** It's not the milk and honey we hate. It's having it rammed down our throats. |
OT- Black Boxes in Cars
In article , Old Nick says...
Insurance companies long ago gave up any pretence of _that_ image. For instance I saw recently that they are starting to ask for your genetic history before life insuring you. They are setting about to take _no_ risks for themselves. We've had this discussion here before - and I think the end result will be that the customers will be divided into two catagories. The first are those who have been tested and found to have a predisposition to some disease. The second are those who were tested, and do *not* have that problem. The first catagory will be unable to purchase insurance, because as one insurance exec said, 'we don't insure burning buildings.' The second catagory doesn't *need* insurance. The one bright spot in this future is, it seems to have no need for insurance companies. Think about it: insurance is all about spreading risk around amongst a pool of insured. Key here is that the risk is statistically random. Once it becomes predictable, the entire house of cards falls down. Jim -- ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
OT- Black Boxes in Cars
On 9 Aug 2004 17:21:10 -0700, jim rozen
vaguely proposed a theory .......and in reply I say!: remove ns from my header address to reply via email Interesting Jim. I was sort of heading down that path as I pondered this this morning, while seting up for the day. I think it was Heinlein that considered insurance to be simply gambling against yourself. But it does have its place. I would really love to see the insurance guys crash (and I have a Mom and Pop bunch of shares in some company or other) because they have lost the plot and distorted the whole, almost socialistic, idea of insurance, where they could extract a reasonable amount of pay for managing the spread of risk, into a maximise profit, grow grow grow thing. If they crashed, because people actually _did_ stop insuring or were uninsurable, then maybe we'd get back to balance. Knowing the masses (and I _am_ insured for various things, even though I have paid ten (hah!) times over what I have ever claimed) I don't hope for too much. There is a lot of fear and inertia involved. Them and banks, and "cooperatives"....grumble grumble. BUT. You might be right. I insured motorcycles for a couple of years with a company, then had a write-off. Not my fault. But I hit an itinerant pedestrian. Then I was rear-ended by a drunk driver (no insurance, you see) 3 months later. They stopped insuring me. Maybe they _will_ do themselves out of the market! G I mean _I_ stopped riding bikes! G We've had this discussion here before - and I think the end result will be that the customers will be divided into two catagories. Think about it: insurance is all about spreading risk around amongst a pool of insured. Key here is that the risk is statistically random. Once it becomes predictable, the entire house of cards falls down. ************************************************** *** It's not the milk and honey we hate. It's having it rammed down our throats. |
OT- Black Boxes in Cars
In article , Old Nick says...
I would really love to see the insurance guys crash (and I have a Mom and Pop bunch of shares in some company or other) because they have lost the plot and distorted the whole, almost socialistic, idea of insurance, where they could extract a reasonable amount of pay for managing the spread of risk, into a maximise profit, grow grow grow thing. If they crashed, because people actually _did_ stop insuring or were uninsurable, then maybe we'd get back to balance. I think this is already starting to happen. A lot of the younger, self employed guys I know are uninsured, because they can't afford the premiums. Those are the guys who are basically healthy and won't be putting in a lot of claims. So the companies are left with a pool of older folks who have a higher risk rate. I don't want the companies to crash. I'd just like to see some hard numbers on: How many dollars are paid in premiums each year, in the US, and how many dollars actually get sent to pay for care? IOW what overall precentage of the health care dollar winds up as profit in the insurance companies tally sheet? Jim -- ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
OT- Black Boxes in Cars
On 9 Aug 2004 20:01:32 -0700, jim rozen
wrote: I think this is already starting to happen. A lot of the younger, self employed guys I know are uninsured, because they can't afford the premiums. Its not just the young guys who cannot afford the premiums. Gunner "There is no difference between communism and socialism, except in the means of achieving the same ultimate end: communism proposes to enslave men by force, socialism - by vote. It is merely the difference between murder and suicide." - Ayn Rand, from "Foreign Policy Drains U.S. of Main Weapons" |
OT- Black Boxes in Cars
Too_Many_Tools wrote:
It looks like this will be happening sooner than later... http://www.forbes.com/infoimaging/fe...ap1488615.html http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...rintogetabreak So what do you think of having a box recording everything you do and when you do it in your car..or truck..or motorcycle? TMT I think it sucks. I'd allow one if I had to only if I could erase upon will and it was mine - e.g. copy write level - e.g. don't read it without signed authorization. Insurance companies of all types could attach to it and run up rates, void long term payment plans - e.g. pay into a plan for 20 years and get zapped for speeding on I5. Martin -- Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn @ home at Lion's Lair with our computer NRA LOH, NRA Life NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder |
OT- Black Boxes in Cars
Rex B wrote:
On Mon, 9 Aug 2004 15:19:07 +0000 (UTC), "Andrew Mawson" wrote: || ||"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message .com... || It looks like this will be happening sooner than later... || || http://www.forbes.com/infoimaging/fe...ap1488615.html || || || ||http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...rintogetabreak || || So what do you think of having a box recording everything you do and || when you do it in your car..or truck..or motorcycle? || || TMT || ||I wonder if they will do a 6v version for my 1954 m/c or a positive earth ||version for my 1964 car - I think not GGG I don't believe I've seen postive ground as one of the specs for OBD II Texas Parts Guy Easy - on-board generator. Have a bride rectifier where the AC is hooked to the DC input. So the diodes steer correctly in either design. - Oh **** - just told them... Martin -- Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn @ home at Lion's Lair with our computer NRA LOH, NRA Life NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder |
OT- Black Boxes in Cars
In article ,
jim rozen wrote: The first catagory will be unable to purchase insurance, because as one insurance exec said, 'we don't insure burning buildings.' The second catagory doesn't *need* insurance. The one bright spot in this future is, it seems to have no need for insurance companies. It has little to do with genetics, people don't get the medical care they NEED, they get the medical care they WANT. My wife just spent about $60K of 'insurance' money for breast cancer surgery, but she and her doctors absolutely refused to even try a $135 test to see if the cancer was growing or shrinking. It looked to me like unnecessary surgery, and she still has the exact same breast pain that she went to the doctor for in the first place. -- Free men own guns, slaves don't www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5357/ |
OT- Black Boxes in Cars
"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message om... It looks like this will be happening sooner than later... http://www.forbes.com/infoimaging/fe...ap1488615.html http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...rintogetabreak So what do you think of having a box recording everything you do and when you do it in your car..or truck..or motorcycle? TMT I think it is a perfect example of what happens when you have people in large organizations with an insufficient amount of work. They "find" work. I can save them the trouble of reviewing 43,000 accidents - people screw up behind the wheel. Steve. |
OT- Black Boxes in Cars
On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 05:55:22 GMT, Gunner
calmly ranted: On 9 Aug 2004 20:01:32 -0700, jim rozen wrote: I think this is already starting to happen. A lot of the younger, self employed guys I know are uninsured, because they can't afford the premiums. Its not just the young guys who cannot afford the premiums. Insurance? What's that? I've heard of the theory, but... -- ------------------------------------------------------- Never underestimate the innate animosity of inanimate objects. ---- http://diversify.com Dynamic Website Applications |
OT- Black Boxes in Cars
On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 10:31:39 GMT, "SteveF" calmly
ranted: "Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message I think it is a perfect example of what happens when you have people in large organizations with an insufficient amount of work. They "find" work. Aren't these same people visualizing whirrled peas? I can save them the trouble of reviewing 43,000 accidents - people screw up behind the wheel. Why not just crossreference cell phone logs at the time of the accident? "If you're too busy on your phone to pay attention while driving, we're too busy to pay your claim, you fidiot." -- ------------------------------------------------------- Never underestimate the innate animosity of inanimate objects. ---- http://diversify.com Dynamic Website Applications |
OT- Black Boxes in Cars
Already standard practice in the UK to check mobile phone logs when
investigating an accident. Larry Jaques wrote: On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 10:31:39 GMT, "SteveF" calmly ranted: "Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message I think it is a perfect example of what happens when you have people in large organizations with an insufficient amount of work. They "find" work. Aren't these same people visualizing whirrled peas? I can save them the trouble of reviewing 43,000 accidents - people screw up behind the wheel. Why not just crossreference cell phone logs at the time of the accident? "If you're too busy on your phone to pay attention while driving, we're too busy to pay your claim, you fidiot." |
OT- Black Boxes in Cars
Another incident that helped push this issue to the front burner...
http://slate.msn.com/id/2087207 One thing this case did was to emphasize the need for black boxes on all vehicles involved in an accident. A number of points that you might want to consider that would be easily and very likely implemented in the next generation of Black boxes that are being developed currently.... - When the boxes are implemented, you will not be able to deactivate or remove them. Trying to will likely render the vehicle inoperative. - If they are tampered with, they will record this fact which will void all warranties and likely invite criminal charges. - A very likely feature will have the box noting the highest speed in the last hour of operation which would be accessible to any law enforcement official in the field. Automated speeding tickets anyone? - History of abusive vehicle operation that would void warranties. Radiator, engine, transmission and brake abuse would be likely ones. - History including runtime, mileage, times of vehicle operation that will be the future log books of semi trucks. This could easily include the overall weight of the truck and its load. Remember that all these are easily implemented once you have the black box in place. Life is going to be interesting in the future on the open road... |
OT- Black Boxes in Cars
On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 05:55:22 GMT, Gunner
wrote: On 9 Aug 2004 20:01:32 -0700, jim rozen wrote: I think this is already starting to happen. A lot of the younger, self employed guys I know are uninsured, because they can't afford the premiums. Its not just the young guys who cannot afford the premiums. Gunner The one major thing that could be done to make healthcare more affordable is a move to a single-payer system. As in - socialized medicine, as in - exactly what you like to argue against. It's the same with drug costs - you actively shill for the guys who'll reduce your costs when hell freezes over. But then, health care costs aren't really an issue at Gunnervision HQ. There's simply no reason for you to change your tune so long as your entire family gets taken care of under the present "system". In your case, it would be better if your heroes got what they really want - the right to turn you away at the emergency room door until you auction off your assets. I'm thinkin' that if your family's health care really depended on your personal responsibility, you'd decide pretty quick that the AWB isn't really the most important issue in the universe. Wayne |
OT- Black Boxes in Cars
On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 05:31:17 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote: On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 05:55:22 GMT, Gunner calmly ranted: On 9 Aug 2004 20:01:32 -0700, jim rozen wrote: I think this is already starting to happen. A lot of the younger, self employed guys I know are uninsured, because they can't afford the premiums. Its not just the young guys who cannot afford the premiums. Insurance? What's that? I've heard of the theory, but... Thats sort of like "vacation". A mythical word from ancient history. Gunner "There is no difference between communism and socialism, except in the means of achieving the same ultimate end: communism proposes to enslave men by force, socialism - by vote. It is merely the difference between murder and suicide." - Ayn Rand, from "Foreign Policy Drains U.S. of Main Weapons" |
OT- Black Boxes in Cars
In article , Gunner says...
On 9 Aug 2004 20:01:32 -0700, jim rozen wrote: I think this is already starting to happen. A lot of the younger, self employed guys I know are uninsured, because they can't afford the premiums. Its not just the young guys who cannot afford the premiums. Right. I think one of the issues is that the US has, overall, and aging population. The average age is increasing. So to participate in insurance, one has to subsidise the older, sicker folks to some degree. Because the average age is going up, the amount of subsidy goes up too. I suspect somebody like Gary or Ed could get hard numbers on this but the net effect is that the younger tail on the distribution is starting to get lopped off because of the premium increase. I'm not saying that health insurance is unworkable, obviously it's still going to some degree. But the demographic shift is not over yet. At some point it becomes attractive to self insure. Ie, just pay the friggin bill yerself. I've calculated that even with the two or three events that have happended in our family in the past few years, we still would be ahead if we had done this. Obviously YMMV. :( Can the government do a better job than private, for-profit companies, at administering health insurance? Well, that's an amazingly deep question. I'm not gonna ask it.... :^) Jim -- ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
OT- Black Boxes in Cars
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OT- Black Boxes in Cars
Too_Many_Tools wrote:
It looks like this will be happening sooner than later... http://www.forbes.com/infoimaging/fe...ap1488615.html http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...rintogetabreak So what do you think of having a box recording everything you do and when you do it in your car..or truck..or motorcycle? Personally, I have no problem with it - if and only if it only records 30 mins, or stores 30 mins before airbag activation in addition, and can only be accessed from inside the car. |
OT- Black Boxes in Cars
On 10 Aug 2004 08:56:17 -0700, jim rozen
wrote: Can the government do a better job than private, for-profit companies, at administering health insurance? Well, that's an amazingly deep question. I'm not gonna ask it.... :^) Jim This is Usenet, one need not ask a question in order for an answer to be offered. :-) We could compare our costs and results with other countries. Some data from '92. http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/8Comparison.htm You'll find the health care stats about 1/3 of the way down the page. Some interesting and humbling stuff. Perhaps someone can point us to newer info, although I expect the rankings would be similar. More worrisome (as if that's possible) is the trend... an increased number of folks who can't afford insurance, and therefore have no choice but to show up at the emergency room. When they don't have much in assets, there aren't really any consequences for them. So the rest of us get to pay higher rates for care or insurance, along with a parting gift - that those who received the free ride no longer have any reason to be ****ed about the high cost. Some of them might even be on Usenet telling us they're against a socialized system. :-) Anecdote - had some small-job contractors working for me a couple years back. There was a discussion about a recent accident requiring hospital treatment for one of them, and I said something like "man, I bet that was an expensive visit", to which these guys responded that "no, it doesn't cost anything, you just go to emergency and tell them you don't have any money". So no one should be surprised that if you asked these same guys which issue they consider most important to them, it would probably be something dopey like gay marriage or gun control. Wayne |
OT- Black Boxes in Cars
On 10 Aug 2004 08:56:17 -0700, jim rozen
calmly ranted: In article , Gunner says... On 9 Aug 2004 20:01:32 -0700, jim rozen wrote: I think this is already starting to happen. A lot of the younger, self employed guys I know are uninsured, because they can't afford the premiums. Its not just the young guys who cannot afford the premiums. Right. I think one of the issues is that the US has, overall, and aging population. The average age is increasing. So to participate in insurance, one has to subsidise the older, sicker folks to some degree. Because the average age is going up, the amount of subsidy goes up too. Yes, but if we used a mindset of preventive medicine instead of the ghastly process we now use, people wouldn't NEED all the care they now require. But if you look at the abuses of the system, costs could come down. Golden parachutes, sky-high administrative wages, Mom (English-speaking and other) taking little Billy to the doctor (or ER) for a bruised shin/cut on the finger/slight fever/sore throat every week, etc. My sister and I stepped in when the idiots at the VA and Champus (Mom's now on Tri-Care but is healthy) had Dad up to 19 concurrent meds. We got him down to 11 after a single doctor's review and my sister's herbs took over for 4 more. They had him on 3 drugs to counter the other drugs which weren't doing the job, and several more which were to counteract the side-effects of the drugs he was on. What a system! At some point it becomes attractive to self insure. Ie, just pay the friggin bill yerself. I've calculated that even with the two or three events that have happended in our family in the past few years, we still would be ahead if we had done this. Obviously YMMV. :( Ditto here, by about $4,000. I stay healthy and self-repair. My patellar tendinitis cost a total of a couple hundred bucks over a 6 month period. I bought 2 types of knee support, added more vitamins C & E, and started taking gluc/chond/msm for the joint. That would have been ten grand from a doctor because he'd have wanted to operate, send me through physical therapy, put me on prescription meds, etc. I'm much happier without insurance. And if I'm going to die from something nasty, I'd be much happier NOT going into a hospital for it. "Well, we knew for certain that we couldn't save him but we spent about $1.6 million in weak attempts. Shall we bill your Visa, Master Card, American Express card, AND check cashing cards today?" Can the government do a better job than private, for-profit companies, at administering health insurance? Well, that's an amazingly deep question. I'm not gonna ask it.... :^) I've read stories about Japanese corporations doing a better job for their workers than our "system" is doing for ours, and it doesn't cost Japanese workers anything to participate. I hear that the Swiss are pretty healthy, too, and about half of the Canadians are happy with their socialized system. -- ------------------------------------------------------- Never underestimate the innate animosity of inanimate objects. ---- http://diversify.com Dynamic Website Applications |
OT- Black Boxes in Cars
On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 15:27:44 +0100, David Billington
vaguely proposed a theory .......and in reply I say!: remove ns from my header address to reply via email But how can you check in-car DVD player timings...they have in-dash ones here, and ones up on the front windscreen! Already standard practice in the UK to check mobile phone logs when investigating an accident. Larry Jaques wrote: On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 10:31:39 GMT, "SteveF" calmly ranted: "Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message I think it is a perfect example of what happens when you have people in large organizations with an insufficient amount of work. They "find" work. Aren't these same people visualizing whirrled peas? I can save them the trouble of reviewing 43,000 accidents - people screw up behind the wheel. Why not just crossreference cell phone logs at the time of the accident? "If you're too busy on your phone to pay attention while driving, we're too busy to pay your claim, you fidiot." ************************************************** *** It's not the milk and honey we hate. It's having it rammed down our throats. |
OT- Black Boxes in Cars
On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 15:35:08 GMT, wmbjk
vaguely proposed a theory .......and in reply I say!: remove ns from my header address to reply via email IMO there is another aspect we seem not to have mentioned: the medical system itself. It is greedy, aloof and inefficient, and resents any regulation aside from that by itself. Greed. In Oz we have a basic social medicine system for rich and poor. The problem _here_ is that there is also private insurance, which is abused by the Med people. Many people have stopped _using_ private insurance (not paying, notice, but using) when they have chronic complaints, because if you are a privately-insured patient, you _pay more_. You get the same treatment, more or less, but most doctors, and particularly specialists, charge a huge lump on top, because they can. So even privately-insured people are unable to afford treatment. Inefficiency. I stuck a screwdriver into my hand big time recently. I actually did not go to the hospital until next day, at which time emergency wards were the only ones open. I was a minor injury, and was not babbling or delirious. But I must have been asked the same set of questions at least 3 times. I had my temp and blood pressure taken twice. I was finally sent for X-ray (check for bone chipping) and the X-Ray tech asked me to place the wrong hand on the X-Ray table! So my condition was chacked to the nth, but the system stuffed up. Some years ago I had a knee reconstruction. They started to shave the wrong knee (private patient. Good hospital. Not emergency). Luckily yhe pre-med appeared not to have worked with me (brain's had too much practice?) and I picked up on it. So we should not leap straight on the "malingerers" and blame only patients, when looking at why the health care and insurance system is in a mess. The one major thing that could be done to make healthcare more affordable is a move to a single-payer system. As in - socialized medicine, as in - exactly what you like to argue against. It's the same with drug costs - you actively shill for the guys who'll reduce your costs when hell freezes over. But then, health care costs aren't really an issue at Gunnervision HQ. There's simply no reason for you to change your tune so long as your entire family gets taken care of under the present "system". In your case, it would be better if your heroes got what they really want - the right to turn you away at the emergency room door until you auction off your assets. I'm thinkin' that if your family's health care really depended on your personal responsibility, you'd decide pretty quick that the AWB isn't really the most important issue in the universe. Wayne ************************************************** *** It's not the milk and honey we hate. It's having it rammed down our throats. |
OT- Black Boxes in Cars
On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 08:48:06 +0800, Old Nick
wrote: I stuck a screwdriver into my hand big time Ouch. Been there, done that, have the tendon damage. Phillips screw driver, aluminum CB antenna, corroded sheetmetal screws. Impatience. Gunner "There is no difference between communism and socialism, except in the means of achieving the same ultimate end: communism proposes to enslave men by force, socialism - by vote. It is merely the difference between murder and suicide." - Ayn Rand, from "Foreign Policy Drains U.S. of Main Weapons" |
OT- Black Boxes in Cars
In article , Old Nick says...
X-Ray tech asked me to place the wrong hand on the X-Ray table! So my condition was chacked to the nth, but the system stuffed up. Some years ago I had a knee reconstruction. They started to shave the wrong knee ... I've vowed that if I ever go in for any surgery that is not laterally symetric I'm going to take a sharpie pen and write, in big block letters "YES" and "NO" on the respective sides, the night before. Jim -- ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
OT- Black Boxes in Cars
In article , Larry Jaques says...
Yes, but if we used a mindset of preventive medicine instead of the ghastly process we now use, people wouldn't NEED all the care they now require. Obviously. I think that a prerequisite to getting a kidney transplant or bypass surgery should be that you have to personally pay to have 100 kids immunized. Still pretty cheap. But thinking about this today, it's clear that the reason this is getting to be a bigger and bigger issue is that america is simply graying. We're getting older on average. Stuff costs more because it's more complicated. I'm not positive that the reason is that companies or doctors are "greedy" but it's tempting to say that. The reality may be that as we get older the limit of what we want to spend goes up and up. It may be that the real solution is to make hard decisions. You mentioned that about half the canadians are happy with their government-run healthcare system. I'd be willing to bet *big* money that I know what the other half are saying to detract from it. They must be making those hard decisions when they administer that program, or _everyone_ would give glowing reviews. Jim -- ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
OT- Black Boxes in Cars
On 10 Aug 2004 18:19:27 -0700, jim rozen
wrote: In article , Old Nick says... X-Ray tech asked me to place the wrong hand on the X-Ray table! So my condition was chacked to the nth, but the system stuffed up. Some years ago I had a knee reconstruction. They started to shave the wrong knee ... I've vowed that if I ever go in for any surgery that is not laterally symetric I'm going to take a sharpie pen and write, in big block letters "YES" and "NO" on the respective sides, the night before. When the attractive tech. came in to prep (shave from the knee down) me for surgery to reconstruct my heel bone [screw + "K" wire (metal content)] she totally lost it when I swung the plaster splinted lower leg out from under the sheet and pointed out "that's hard!" Gerry :-)} London, Canada |
OT- Black Boxes in Cars
On 10 Aug 2004 18:26:44 -0700, jim rozen
calmly ranted: In article , Larry Jaques says... Yes, but if we used a mindset of preventive medicine instead of the ghastly process we now use, people wouldn't NEED all the care they now require. Obviously. I think that a prerequisite to getting a kidney transplant or bypass surgery should be that you have to personally pay to have 100 kids immunized. Still pretty cheap. You must have a very long arm to grasp air that thin, Jim. ;) But thinking about this today, it's clear that the reason this is getting to be a bigger and bigger issue is that america is simply graying. We're getting older on average. Stuff costs more because it's more complicated. While that may be true to some extent, most cost increases are not from complexity. They're from greed, negligence, and abuse by (some, not all) people from the ground up in the hospitals, the insurance companies, unions, and the attorneys who feed off all of it. I'm not positive that the reason is that companies or doctors are "greedy" but it's tempting to say that. The reality may be that as we get older the limit of what we want to spend goes up and up. So why is it harder to get a routine heart transplant now than it was 30 years ago? Why does that cost 20 times as much as it did then, when the only specialist was 1,000 miles away in a special hospital? (These figures are from the same thin air you grasped that earlier comment ;) It may be that the real solution is to make hard decisions. True, but let's rule out the rest first, eh? You mentioned that about half the canadians are happy with their government-run healthcare system. I'd be willing to bet *big* money that I know what the other half are saying to detract from it. They must be making those hard decisions when they administer that program, or _everyone_ would give glowing reviews. That, too. But I'll bet their hospitals are a damn site more efficient than ours. (WAG) -- ------------------------------------------------------- Never underestimate the innate animosity of inanimate objects. ---- http://diversify.com Dynamic Website Applications |
OT- Black Boxes in Cars
Martin H. Eastburn wrote:
Rex B wrote: On Mon, 9 Aug 2004 15:19:07 +0000 (UTC), "Andrew Mawson" wrote: || ||"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message .com... || It looks like this will be happening sooner than later... || || http://www.forbes.com/infoimaging/fe...ap1488615.html || || || ||http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...rintogetabreak || || So what do you think of having a box recording everything you do and || when you do it in your car..or truck..or motorcycle? || || TMT || ||I wonder if they will do a 6v version for my 1954 m/c or a positive earth ||version for my 1964 car - I think not GGG I don't believe I've seen postive ground as one of the specs for OBD II Texas Parts Guy Easy - on-board generator. Have a bride rectifier where the AC is hooked to the DC input. So the diodes steer correctly in either design. - Oh **** - just told them... Martin Spell checker or brain dead - bridge not bride ! -- Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn @ home at Lion's Lair with our computer NRA LOH, NRA Life NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder |
OT- Black Boxes in Cars
On 10 Aug 2004 18:26:44 -0700, jim rozen
vaguely proposed a theory .......and in reply I say!: remove ns from my header address to reply via email I'm not positive that the reason is that companies or doctors are "greedy" but it's tempting to say that. The reality may be that as we get older the limit of what we want to spend goes up and up. I think that _everybody_ is getting greedy. It's not a matter of age, IMO. I agree that people are misusing the medical system from both sides, patients included. But I think that it's as time goes by, rather than as we get older, that people want more and more for less and less, and are less willing up pony up for the necessities, especially when it's other psople's necessities. This shows a considerable lack of thought about the fact that _everybody gets old and or sick one day. People complain about youngsters these days (in OZ at least) not being able to buy a house any more. I rented a house, and saved my bum off for years to afford a run-down 2-bedroom place in the burbs, then bought up as I could. I had a motorbike, and my wife had an old car. These days I see kids driving around in brand-new cars, with $2000 stereos and with 60" TVs in their bedrooms, buying shares on the market, and complaining they can't buy a brand new 4 bed two bath house at 20 years of age! And these are the people that we expect to support the ageing population? It may be that the real solution is to make hard decisions. You mentioned that about half the canadians are happy with their government-run healthcare system. I'd be willing to bet *big* money that I know what the other half are saying to detract from it. They must be making those hard decisions when they administer that program, or _everyone_ would give glowing reviews. Jim ************************************************** *** It's not the milk and honey we hate. It's having it rammed down our throats. |
OT- Black Boxes in Cars
On 10 Aug 2004 08:56:17 -0700, jim rozen wrote:
I'm not saying that health insurance is unworkable, obviously it's still going to some degree. But the demographic shift is not over yet. The reason the current insurance system is hanging on is that most of it is employer paid. That's what's keeping the demographic tail from being lopped off. At some point it becomes attractive to self insure. Ie, just pay the friggin bill yerself. I've calculated that even with the two or three events that have happended in our family in the past few years, we still would be ahead if we had done this. Obviously YMMV. :( That's fine, unless you have a catastrophic event. Then the bills will dwarf what you're able to pay. What I've advocated is that people only buy catastrophic coverage. That's relatively cheap. Pay the ordinary nickel and dime medical costs out of your pocket, but have that backstop for the really expensive catastrophic event that may or may not come along. That was the original purpose of insurance. People seem to have forgotten. Now they expect insurance to pay *all* of their medical bills. It doesn't work. Can the government do a better job than private, for-profit companies, at administering health insurance? Well, that's an amazingly deep question. I'm not gonna ask it.... :^) I don't think so. Look at the VA as a model for government managed health care. Substandard care at inflated costs. Gary |
OT- Black Boxes in Cars
On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 20:20:30 -0700, Larry Jaques wrote:
So why is it harder to get a routine heart transplant now than it was 30 years ago? Why does that cost 20 times as much as it did then, when the only specialist was 1,000 miles away in a special hospital? (These figures are from the same thin air you grasped that earlier comment ;) 30 years ago heart transplants were *not* routine. They were experimental, and most of the people who got them didn't live more than a few weeks or months. It has taken a *huge* amount of work to learn how to make transplants routine. That work was extremely expensive, and the drug companies, doctors, hospitals, etc are now trying to recoup those costs. Gary |
OT- Black Boxes in Cars
On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 03:57:32 -0400, Gary Coffman
vaguely proposed a theory .......and in reply I say!: remove ns from my header address to reply via email 30 years ago heart transplants were *not* routine. They were experimental, and most of the people who got them didn't live more than a few weeks or months. It has taken a *huge* amount of work to learn how to make transplants routine. That work was extremely expensive, and the drug companies, doctors, hospitals, etc are now trying to recoup those costs. In the same way that Microsoft recoups its costs? I apprecaite that all of these organisations are spending money, and need to get it back in order to spend more. But (a) they get VERY rich in the process (b) a lot of the research is done with Goivt funds (at least it certainly is here, and we in Oz have done quite a bit of medical stuff. (c) they usually 'get their money back" in very short order, then keep on getting it. ************************************************** *** It's not the milk and honey we hate. It's having it rammed down our throats. |
OT- Black Boxes in Cars
On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 03:50:26 -0400, Gary Coffman
vaguely proposed a theory .......and in reply I say!: remove ns from my header address to reply via email That's fine, unless you have a catastrophic event. Then the bills will dwarf what you're able to pay. What I've advocated is that people only buy catastrophic coverage. That's relatively cheap. Pay the ordinary nickel and dime medical costs out of your pocket, but have that backstop for the really expensive catastrophic event that may or may not come along. That was the original purpose of insurance. People seem to have forgotten. Now they expect insurance to pay *all* of their medical bills. It doesn't work. That all makes sense. Except that I am not sure that here we _can_ insure only for catastrophic results. NO. I suppose we can, with non-health insurance crowds. Also, as was said before, Insurance companies are starting to clamp down on, or up the price on, those that they _think may_ suffer a catastrophic occurrence because of genes. They are ahead of you!G Can the government do a better job than private, for-profit companies, at administering health insurance? Well, that's an amazingly deep question. I'm not gonna ask it.... :^) I don't think so. Look at the VA as a model for government managed health care. Substandard care at inflated costs. But in Oz we don't have substandard care (although it's struggling, but then that does not seem uncommon) and it's quite cheap on the Govt-run health system. ************************************************** *** It's not the milk and honey we hate. It's having it rammed down our throats. |
OT- Black Boxes in Cars
On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 03:57:32 -0400, Gary Coffman
calmly ranted: On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 20:20:30 -0700, Larry Jaques wrote: So why is it harder to get a routine heart transplant now than it was 30 years ago? Why does that cost 20 times as much as it did then, when the only specialist was 1,000 miles away in a special hospital? (These figures are from the same thin air you grasped that earlier comment ;) 30 years ago heart transplants were *not* routine. They were experimental, and most of the people who got them didn't live more than a few weeks or months. No, I meant that -today- they were routine; you can get one from a backwater hospital. It has taken a *huge* amount of work to learn how to make transplants routine. That work was extremely expensive, and the drug companies, doctors, hospitals, etc are now trying to recoup those costs. It's $500-$1k to walk into a hospital for a couple stitches nowadays, too. That's routine, wasn't expensive to learn (over and above medical school), and takes no drugs. And aspirin (Tylenol now) shouldn't cost $5-8 a tab. Greed, waste, and inefficiency come to mind. -- ------------------------------------------------------- Never underestimate the innate animosity of inanimate objects. ---- http://diversify.com Dynamic Website Applications |
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