All yooze soldering type folks,
I want to solder a steel tube into an aluminum one. I'm thinking that
if I tin the steel with the mostly tin lead free plumbing solder and
the aluminum with the mainly zinc aluminum solder I should then be
able to join them together with the lead free plumbing solder. I know,
because I have done it more than once, that I can get the lead/tin
solder and lead free plumbing solders to wet aluminum but it is not
nearly as easy as using the zinc based stuff. I know there are other
ways to do this but I am looking for a fairly simple, low tech, strong
and cheap, way to join the one tube into the other with a reliable
method using widely available materials that won't be affected by
solvents like gasoline, alcohol, acetone, benzene, and the other
typical components of pump gas. This is not just for me. I also want
to be able to show other folks how to do this, folks who have limited
resources and education.
Thanks,
Eric

On 4/29/2016 9:54 PM, wrote:
All yooze soldering type folks,
I want to solder a steel tube into an aluminum one. I'm thinking that
if I tin the steel with the mostly tin lead free plumbing solder and
the aluminum with the mainly zinc aluminum solder I should then be
able to join them together with the lead free plumbing solder. I know,
because I have done it more than once, that I can get the lead/tin
solder and lead free plumbing solders to wet aluminum but it is not
nearly as easy as using the zinc based stuff. I know there are other
ways to do this but I am looking for a fairly simple, low tech, strong
and cheap, way to join the one tube into the other with a reliable
method using widely available materials that won't be affected by
solvents like gasoline, alcohol, acetone, benzene, and the other
typical components of pump gas. This is not just for me. I also want
to be able to show other folks how to do this, folks who have limited
resources and education.
Thanks,
Eric


Try Sal-Met flux. It worked well for me using Lead/Tin solder.

In article ,
wrote:

All yooze soldering type folks,
I want to solder a steel tube into an aluminum one. I'm thinking that
if I tin the steel with the mostly tin lead free plumbing solder and
the aluminum with the mainly zinc aluminum solder I should then be
able to join them together with the lead free plumbing solder. I know,
because I have done it more than once, that I can get the lead/tin
solder and lead free plumbing solders to wet aluminum but it is not
nearly as easy as using the zinc based stuff. I know there are other
ways to do this but I am looking for a fairly simple, low tech, strong
and cheap, way to join the one tube into the other with a reliable
method using widely available materials that won't be affected by
solvents like gasoline, alcohol, acetone, benzene, and the other
typical components of pump gas. This is not just for me. I also want
to be able to show other folks how to do this, folks who have limited
resources and education.

It's easy enough to solder steel to aluminum, as others have explained.
But there are some more fundamental problems:

1. The difference in temperature coefficients of linear expansion,
which will cause such assemblies to try to tear themselves apart
mechanically. If the contact area is small enough, the mushiness of
solder will handle the mismatch, but the joint will eventually fatigue
and break.

2. This is a built in galvanic couple, and if not dry and isolated,
the assembly will rapidly corrode. The aluminum will corrode first,
protecting the steel.

What are you trying to build? There are ways to avoid these problems.

Joe Gwinn

On Sat, 30 Apr 2016 10:25:24 -0400, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:

All yooze soldering type folks,
I want to solder a steel tube into an aluminum one. I'm thinking that
if I tin the steel with the mostly tin lead free plumbing solder and
the aluminum with the mainly zinc aluminum solder I should then be
able to join them together with the lead free plumbing solder. I know,
because I have done it more than once, that I can get the lead/tin
solder and lead free plumbing solders to wet aluminum but it is not
nearly as easy as using the zinc based stuff. I know there are other
ways to do this but I am looking for a fairly simple, low tech, strong
and cheap, way to join the one tube into the other with a reliable
method using widely available materials that won't be affected by
solvents like gasoline, alcohol, acetone, benzene, and the other
typical components of pump gas. This is not just for me. I also want
to be able to show other folks how to do this, folks who have limited
resources and education.

It's easy enough to solder steel to aluminum, as others have explained.
But there are some more fundamental problems:

1. The difference in temperature coefficients of linear expansion,
which will cause such assemblies to try to tear themselves apart
mechanically. If the contact area is small enough, the mushiness of
solder will handle the mismatch, but the joint will eventually fatigue
and break.

2. This is a built in galvanic couple, and if not dry and isolated,
the assembly will rapidly corrode. The aluminum will corrode first,
protecting the steel.

What are you trying to build? There are ways to avoid these problems.

Joe Gwinn
Gas tanks for bicycle motors. I can see how corrosion might be a
problem if the joint was wet a good deal of the time but this joint
will be dry most of the time. The joint is a steel filler neck
soldered into an aluminum tube. With the diameters involved, and a 70
degree F rise the steel would expand .0008 and the aluminum .0015, so
basically twice as much. Do you think the joint would fatigue
quickly? I'm trying to picture this joint in my mind, the stresses
involved. When soldering the aluminum will expand quite a bit so when
the joint cools to room temp. the steel will be in compression. As the
joint warms the steel will just be under slightly less compression.
What would you do in this case in order to meet the requirements in my
original post?
Eric

On Sat, 30 Apr 2016 09:15:55 -0700, wrote:

On Sat, 30 Apr 2016 10:25:24 -0400, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:

All yooze soldering type folks,
I want to solder a steel tube into an aluminum one. I'm thinking that
if I tin the steel with the mostly tin lead free plumbing solder and
the aluminum with the mainly zinc aluminum solder I should then be
able to join them together with the lead free plumbing solder. I know,
because I have done it more than once, that I can get the lead/tin
solder and lead free plumbing solders to wet aluminum but it is not
nearly as easy as using the zinc based stuff. I know there are other
ways to do this but I am looking for a fairly simple, low tech, strong
and cheap, way to join the one tube into the other with a reliable
method using widely available materials that won't be affected by
solvents like gasoline, alcohol, acetone, benzene, and the other
typical components of pump gas. This is not just for me. I also want
to be able to show other folks how to do this, folks who have limited
resources and education.

It's easy enough to solder steel to aluminum, as others have explained.
But there are some more fundamental problems:

1. The difference in temperature coefficients of linear expansion,
which will cause such assemblies to try to tear themselves apart
mechanically. If the contact area is small enough, the mushiness of
solder will handle the mismatch, but the joint will eventually fatigue
and break.

2. This is a built in galvanic couple, and if not dry and isolated,
the assembly will rapidly corrode. The aluminum will corrode first,
protecting the steel.

What are you trying to build? There are ways to avoid these problems.

Joe Gwinn
Gas tanks for bicycle motors. I can see how corrosion might be a
problem if the joint was wet a good deal of the time but this joint
will be dry most of the time. The joint is a steel filler neck
soldered into an aluminum tube. With the diameters involved, and a 70
degree F rise the steel would expand .0008 and the aluminum .0015, so
basically twice as much. Do you think the joint would fatigue
quickly? I'm trying to picture this joint in my mind, the stresses
involved. When soldering the aluminum will expand quite a bit so when
the joint cools to room temp. the steel will be in compression. As the
joint warms the steel will just be under slightly less compression.
What would you do in this case in order to meet the requirements in my
original post?
Eric

This is not from personal experience, but when making solder and
brazed joints between dissimilar materials (particularly those with
widely different TCoE, like aluminum and steel), industry practice is
to design as much overlap in the joint at possible. Two pieces joined
along a narrow seam line are considered to be the least desirable
situation.

You want as much shear area as you can get. This is just a general
design guideline, though. Different circumstances can be different in
joining.

--
Ed Huntress

On Sat, 30 Apr 2016 09:15:55 -0700, wrote:

On Sat, 30 Apr 2016 10:25:24 -0400, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:

All yooze soldering type folks,
I want to solder a steel tube into an aluminum one. I'm thinking that
if I tin the steel with the mostly tin lead free plumbing solder and
the aluminum with the mainly zinc aluminum solder I should then be
able to join them together with the lead free plumbing solder. I know,
because I have done it more than once, that I can get the lead/tin
solder and lead free plumbing solders to wet aluminum but it is not
nearly as easy as using the zinc based stuff. I know there are other
ways to do this but I am looking for a fairly simple, low tech, strong
and cheap, way to join the one tube into the other with a reliable
method using widely available materials that won't be affected by
solvents like gasoline, alcohol, acetone, benzene, and the other
typical components of pump gas. This is not just for me. I also want
to be able to show other folks how to do this, folks who have limited
resources and education.

It's easy enough to solder steel to aluminum, as others have explained.
But there are some more fundamental problems:

1. The difference in temperature coefficients of linear expansion,
which will cause such assemblies to try to tear themselves apart
mechanically. If the contact area is small enough, the mushiness of
solder will handle the mismatch, but the joint will eventually fatigue
and break.

2. This is a built in galvanic couple, and if not dry and isolated,
the assembly will rapidly corrode. The aluminum will corrode first,
protecting the steel.

What are you trying to build? There are ways to avoid these problems.

Joe Gwinn
Gas tanks for bicycle motors. I can see how corrosion might be a
problem if the joint was wet a good deal of the time but this joint
will be dry most of the time. The joint is a steel filler neck
soldered into an aluminum tube. With the diameters involved, and a 70
degree F rise the steel would expand .0008 and the aluminum .0015, so
basically twice as much. Do you think the joint would fatigue
quickly? I'm trying to picture this joint in my mind, the stresses
involved. When soldering the aluminum will expand quite a bit so when
the joint cools to room temp. the steel will be in compression. As the
joint warms the steel will just be under slightly less compression.
What would you do in this case in order to meet the requirements in my
original post?
Eric
Get an aluminum filler neck or a steel tube???

wrote in message
...
On Sat, 30 Apr 2016 10:25:24 -0400, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:

All yooze soldering type folks,
I want to solder a steel tube into an aluminum one. I'm thinking that
if I tin the steel with the mostly tin lead free plumbing solder and
the aluminum with the mainly zinc aluminum solder I should then be
able to join them together with the lead free plumbing solder. I know,
because I have done it more than once, that I can get the lead/tin
solder and lead free plumbing solders to wet aluminum but it is not
nearly as easy as using the zinc based stuff. I know there are other
ways to do this but I am looking for a fairly simple, low tech, strong
and cheap, way to join the one tube into the other with a reliable
method using widely available materials that won't be affected by
solvents like gasoline, alcohol, acetone, benzene, and the other
typical components of pump gas. This is not just for me. I also want
to be able to show other folks how to do this, folks who have limited
resources and education.

It's easy enough to solder steel to aluminum, as others have explained.
But there are some more fundamental problems:

1. The difference in temperature coefficients of linear expansion,
which will cause such assemblies to try to tear themselves apart
mechanically. If the contact area is small enough, the mushiness of
solder will handle the mismatch, but the joint will eventually fatigue
and break.

2. This is a built in galvanic couple, and if not dry and isolated,
the assembly will rapidly corrode. The aluminum will corrode first,
protecting the steel.

What are you trying to build? There are ways to avoid these problems.

Joe Gwinn
Gas tanks for bicycle motors. I can see how corrosion might be a
problem if the joint was wet a good deal of the time but this joint
will be dry most of the time. The joint is a steel filler neck
soldered into an aluminum tube. With the diameters involved, and a 70
degree F rise the steel would expand .0008 and the aluminum .0015, so
basically twice as much. Do you think the joint would fatigue
quickly? I'm trying to picture this joint in my mind, the stresses
involved. When soldering the aluminum will expand quite a bit so when
the joint cools to room temp. the steel will be in compression. As the
joint warms the steel will just be under slightly less compression.
What would you do in this case in order to meet the requirements in my
original post?
Eric

Mounting flange for the filler neck and fuel filler hose connecting the two?

On Sat, 30 Apr 2016 12:34:56 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Sat, 30 Apr 2016 09:15:55 -0700, wrote:

On Sat, 30 Apr 2016 10:25:24 -0400, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:

All yooze soldering type folks,
I want to solder a steel tube into an aluminum one. I'm thinking that
if I tin the steel with the mostly tin lead free plumbing solder and
the aluminum with the mainly zinc aluminum solder I should then be
able to join them together with the lead free plumbing solder. I know,
because I have done it more than once, that I can get the lead/tin
solder and lead free plumbing solders to wet aluminum but it is not
nearly as easy as using the zinc based stuff. I know there are other
ways to do this but I am looking for a fairly simple, low tech, strong
and cheap, way to join the one tube into the other with a reliable
method using widely available materials that won't be affected by
solvents like gasoline, alcohol, acetone, benzene, and the other
typical components of pump gas. This is not just for me. I also want
to be able to show other folks how to do this, folks who have limited
resources and education.

It's easy enough to solder steel to aluminum, as others have explained.
But there are some more fundamental problems:

1. The difference in temperature coefficients of linear expansion,
which will cause such assemblies to try to tear themselves apart
mechanically. If the contact area is small enough, the mushiness of
solder will handle the mismatch, but the joint will eventually fatigue
and break.

2. This is a built in galvanic couple, and if not dry and isolated,
the assembly will rapidly corrode. The aluminum will corrode first,
protecting the steel.

What are you trying to build? There are ways to avoid these problems.

Joe Gwinn
Gas tanks for bicycle motors. I can see how corrosion might be a
problem if the joint was wet a good deal of the time but this joint
will be dry most of the time. The joint is a steel filler neck
soldered into an aluminum tube. With the diameters involved, and a 70
degree F rise the steel would expand .0008 and the aluminum .0015, so
basically twice as much. Do you think the joint would fatigue
quickly? I'm trying to picture this joint in my mind, the stresses
involved. When soldering the aluminum will expand quite a bit so when
the joint cools to room temp. the steel will be in compression. As the
joint warms the steel will just be under slightly less compression.
What would you do in this case in order to meet the requirements in my
original post?
Eric

This is not from personal experience, but when making solder and
brazed joints between dissimilar materials (particularly those with
widely different TCoE, like aluminum and steel), industry practice is
to design as much overlap in the joint at possible. Two pieces joined
along a narrow seam line are considered to be the least desirable
situation.

You want as much shear area as you can get. This is just a general
design guideline, though. Different circumstances can be different in
joining.
The idea is to have the steel filler neck inserted into the aluminum
tube about 1/2". That oughta give me plenty of overlap.
Eric

On Friday, April 29, 2016 at 7:51:50 PM UTC-7, wrote:

I want to solder a steel tube into an aluminum one. I'm thinking that
if I tin the steel with the mostly tin lead free plumbing solder and
the aluminum with the mainly zinc aluminum solder I should then be
able to join them together

Fluxes for aluminum (fluorides) and for steel (acid) are very different.
Probably you'd have to tin the parts separately, then use
a milder flux while heating the whole assembly, and let solder
wick in from one end or the other of the joint. There are
many steps to this, it's probably easier to knurl the steel, apply some
compatible sealant/adhesive (silicone?) and press the assembly together.
That has the advantage, too, that you can anodize the aluminum beforehand.

On Sat, 30 Apr 2016 10:24:51 -0700, "Bob La Londe"
wrote:

wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 30 Apr 2016 10:25:24 -0400, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:

All yooze soldering type folks,
I want to solder a steel tube into an aluminum one. I'm thinking that
if I tin the steel with the mostly tin lead free plumbing solder and
the aluminum with the mainly zinc aluminum solder I should then be
able to join them together with the lead free plumbing solder. I know,
because I have done it more than once, that I can get the lead/tin
solder and lead free plumbing solders to wet aluminum but it is not
nearly as easy as using the zinc based stuff. I know there are other
ways to do this but I am looking for a fairly simple, low tech, strong
and cheap, way to join the one tube into the other with a reliable
method using widely available materials that won't be affected by
solvents like gasoline, alcohol, acetone, benzene, and the other
typical components of pump gas. This is not just for me. I also want
to be able to show other folks how to do this, folks who have limited
resources and education.

It's easy enough to solder steel to aluminum, as others have explained.
But there are some more fundamental problems:

1. The difference in temperature coefficients of linear expansion,
which will cause such assemblies to try to tear themselves apart
mechanically. If the contact area is small enough, the mushiness of
solder will handle the mismatch, but the joint will eventually fatigue
and break.

2. This is a built in galvanic couple, and if not dry and isolated,
the assembly will rapidly corrode. The aluminum will corrode first,
protecting the steel.

What are you trying to build? There are ways to avoid these problems.

Joe Gwinn
Gas tanks for bicycle motors. I can see how corrosion might be a
problem if the joint was wet a good deal of the time but this joint
will be dry most of the time. The joint is a steel filler neck
soldered into an aluminum tube. With the diameters involved, and a 70
degree F rise the steel would expand .0008 and the aluminum .0015, so
basically twice as much. Do you think the joint would fatigue
quickly? I'm trying to picture this joint in my mind, the stresses
involved. When soldering the aluminum will expand quite a bit so when
the joint cools to room temp. the steel will be in compression. As the
joint warms the steel will just be under slightly less compression.
What would you do in this case in order to meet the requirements in my
original post?
Eric

Mounting flange for the filler neck and fuel filler hose connecting the two?


I suppose I could go that route, but it would look cleaner if the
steel is soldered into the aluminum tube. There are lots of folks
putting little two and four stroke motors on bicycles. The kits come
with a gas tank. Some like the tanks and some others either fab their
own or buy a custom one. Lots of the people mounting these kits are
doing so on a tight budget and get really creative. I thought it would
be cool if I hammer form an aluminum tank and post the process on
youtube or a forum. My goal is to show how this can be done with
minimal tools, skill, and cost. That's why the tank halves need to be
soldered instead of welded. And the filler neck needs to be sawn off
of the stock tank and soldered into the fabbed up neck on the new
tank.
Eric

On Sat, 30 Apr 2016 12:49:59 -0700, etpm wrote:

On Sat, 30 Apr 2016 10:24:51 -0700, "Bob La Londe"
wrote:

wrote in message
. ..
On Sat, 30 Apr 2016 10:25:24 -0400, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:

All yooze soldering type folks,
I want to solder a steel tube into an aluminum one. I'm thinking
that if I tin the steel with the mostly tin lead free plumbing
solder and the aluminum with the mainly zinc aluminum solder I
should then be able to join them together with the lead free
plumbing solder. I know,
because I have done it more than once, that I can get the lead/tin
solder and lead free plumbing solders to wet aluminum but it is not
nearly as easy as using the zinc based stuff. I know there are other
ways to do this but I am looking for a fairly simple, low tech,
strong and cheap, way to join the one tube into the other with a
reliable method using widely available materials that won't be
affected by solvents like gasoline, alcohol, acetone, benzene, and
the other typical components of pump gas. This is not just for me. I
also want to be able to show other folks how to do this, folks who
have limited resources and education.

It's easy enough to solder steel to aluminum, as others have
explained.
But there are some more fundamental problems:

1. The difference in temperature coefficients of linear expansion,
which will cause such assemblies to try to tear themselves apart
mechanically. If the contact area is small enough, the mushiness of
solder will handle the mismatch, but the joint will eventually fatigue
and break.

2. This is a built in galvanic couple, and if not dry and isolated,
the assembly will rapidly corrode. The aluminum will corrode first,
protecting the steel.

What are you trying to build? There are ways to avoid these problems.

Joe Gwinn
Gas tanks for bicycle motors. I can see how corrosion might be a
problem if the joint was wet a good deal of the time but this joint
will be dry most of the time. The joint is a steel filler neck
soldered into an aluminum tube. With the diameters involved, and a 70
degree F rise the steel would expand .0008 and the aluminum .0015, so
basically twice as much. Do you think the joint would fatigue
quickly? I'm trying to picture this joint in my mind, the stresses
involved. When soldering the aluminum will expand quite a bit so when
the joint cools to room temp. the steel will be in compression. As the
joint warms the steel will just be under slightly less compression.
What would you do in this case in order to meet the requirements in my
original post?
Eric

Mounting flange for the filler neck and fuel filler hose connecting the
two?


I suppose I could go that route, but it would look cleaner if the steel
is soldered into the aluminum tube. There are lots of folks putting
little two and four stroke motors on bicycles. The kits come with a gas
tank. Some like the tanks and some others either fab their own or buy a
custom one. Lots of the people mounting these kits are doing so on a
tight budget and get really creative. I thought it would be cool if I
hammer form an aluminum tank and post the process on youtube or a forum.
My goal is to show how this can be done with minimal tools, skill, and
cost. That's why the tank halves need to be soldered instead of welded.
And the filler neck needs to be sawn off of the stock tank and soldered
into the fabbed up neck on the new tank.
Eric

Overall, I would expect that mild steel would be as easy to form as
aluminum, and a lot easier to solder and/or weld when everything is
pounded out to shape.

For chuckles, do a search on "hydroforming" on YouTube, and look at what
people are doing in backyard shops with flat pieces of sheet metal and
pressure washers.

--
Tim Wescott
Control systems, embedded software and circuit design
I'm looking for work! See my website if you're interested
http://www.wescottdesign.com

On Fri, 29 Apr 2016 23:12:07 -0500, gray_wolf
wrote:

On 4/29/2016 9:54 PM, wrote:
All yooze soldering type folks,
I want to solder a steel tube into an aluminum one. I'm thinking that
if I tin the steel with the mostly tin lead free plumbing solder and
the aluminum with the mainly zinc aluminum solder I should then be
able to join them together with the lead free plumbing solder. I know,
because I have done it more than once, that I can get the lead/tin
solder and lead free plumbing solders to wet aluminum but it is not
nearly as easy as using the zinc based stuff. I know there are other
ways to do this but I am looking for a fairly simple, low tech, strong
and cheap, way to join the one tube into the other with a reliable
method using widely available materials that won't be affected by
solvents like gasoline, alcohol, acetone, benzene, and the other
typical components of pump gas. This is not just for me. I also want
to be able to show other folks how to do this, folks who have limited
resources and education.
Thanks,
Eric


Try Sal-Met flux. It worked well for me using Lead/Tin solder.




That stuff seems hard to find.
Eric

On Sat, 30 Apr 2016 09:15:55 -0700, wrote:

On Sat, 30 Apr 2016 10:25:24 -0400, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:

All yooze soldering type folks,
I want to solder a steel tube into an aluminum one. I'm thinking that
if I tin the steel with the mostly tin lead free plumbing solder and
the aluminum with the mainly zinc aluminum solder I should then be
able to join them together with the lead free plumbing solder. I know,
because I have done it more than once, that I can get the lead/tin
solder and lead free plumbing solders to wet aluminum but it is not
nearly as easy as using the zinc based stuff. I know there are other
ways to do this but I am looking for a fairly simple, low tech, strong
and cheap, way to join the one tube into the other with a reliable
method using widely available materials that won't be affected by
solvents like gasoline, alcohol, acetone, benzene, and the other
typical components of pump gas. This is not just for me. I also want
to be able to show other folks how to do this, folks who have limited
resources and education.

It's easy enough to solder steel to aluminum, as others have explained.
But there are some more fundamental problems:

1. The difference in temperature coefficients of linear expansion,
which will cause such assemblies to try to tear themselves apart
mechanically. If the contact area is small enough, the mushiness of
solder will handle the mismatch, but the joint will eventually fatigue
and break.

2. This is a built in galvanic couple, and if not dry and isolated,
the assembly will rapidly corrode. The aluminum will corrode first,
protecting the steel.

What are you trying to build? There are ways to avoid these problems.

Joe Gwinn
Gas tanks for bicycle motors. I can see how corrosion might be a
problem if the joint was wet a good deal of the time but this joint
will be dry most of the time. The joint is a steel filler neck
soldered into an aluminum tube. With the diameters involved, and a 70
degree F rise the steel would expand .0008 and the aluminum .0015, so
basically twice as much. Do you think the joint would fatigue
quickly? I'm trying to picture this joint in my mind, the stresses
involved. When soldering the aluminum will expand quite a bit so when
the joint cools to room temp. the steel will be in compression. As the
joint warms the steel will just be under slightly less compression.
What would you do in this case in order to meet the requirements in my
original post?
Eric

JB weld? Maybe it's flexible enough to handle the temp cos.

http://www.fillernecksupply.com/weld-in-filler-necks/ Weld-in aluminum
necks for $3.42. Got helium?

What surprises me is that there are two different diameters. I thought
gas filler necks were standardized many decades ago. shrug

--
EAT RIGHT, KEEP FIT, DIE ANYWAY.
--anon

Aw, Hell. Gimme CHOCOLATE!
--LJ

On Sat, 30 Apr 2016 12:42:25 -0700, wrote:

The idea is to have the steel filler neck inserted into the aluminum
tube about 1/2". That oughta give me plenty of overlap.

Some possibles:

http://tinyurl.com/btnwayp Alumiweld

http://tinyurl.com/zba93td Alloy 5

--
EAT RIGHT, KEEP FIT, DIE ANYWAY.
--anon

Aw, Hell. Gimme CHOCOLATE!
--LJ