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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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#1
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Final Reunion....
On Tuesday, March 31, 2015 at 12:30:21 AM UTC-4, George Plimpton wrote:
*THE* battle of Midway, in which the Japanese carriers were destroyed, occurred as a direct result of Doolittle's attack on the Japanese mainland. Try again. The Battle of Midway was not the direct result of Doolittle's raid. Since you think it was, explain the direct connection. At best it contributed to Japan's decision to secure the Pacific region , but there was no direct connection. The raid did not have any effect on the Japanese military strength. Dan |
#2
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Final Reunion....
wrote in message
... On Tuesday, March 31, 2015 at 12:30:21 AM UTC-4, George Plimpton wrote: *THE* battle of Midway, in which the Japanese carriers were destroyed, occurred as a direct result of Doolittle's attack on the Japanese mainland. Try again. The Battle of Midway was not the direct result of Doolittle's raid. Since you think it was, explain the direct connection. At best it contributed to Japan's decision to secure the Pacific region , but there was no direct connection. The raid did not have any effect on the Japanese military strength. Dan ================ http://armedforcesmuseum.com/world-w...roku-yamamoto/ "Yamamoto was agitated as he was hoping for an offensive battle in the east, which he felt would finish the American fleet. However, Naval General Staff officers were not willing to take that risk. On April 18, 1942, Tokyo and the area around it were attacked by the "Doolittle Raid". As a result, the Naval General Staff gave Yamamoto permission to implement his Midway Operation. He began to plan a rush for both Midway and the Aleutians." -jsw |
#3
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Final Reunion....
On Tuesday, March 31, 2015 at 10:27:15 AM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote:
The Battle of Midway was not the direct result of Doolittle's raid. Since you think it was, explain the direct connection. At best it contributed to Japan's decision to secure the Pacific region , but there was no direct connection. The raid did not have any effect on the Japanese military strength. Dan ================ http://armedforcesmuseum.com/world-w...roku-yamamoto/ "Yamamoto was agitated as he was hoping for an offensive battle in the east, which he felt would finish the American fleet. However, Naval General Staff officers were not willing to take that risk. On April 18, 1942, Tokyo and the area around it were attacked by the "Doolittle Raid". As a result, the Naval General Staff gave Yamamoto permission to implement his Midway Operation. He began to plan a rush for both Midway and the Aleutians." -jsw Just as I said. It contributed to Japan's decision to secure the Pacific. Yamamoto was pushing for an offensive battle already. It did not have any bearing on the performance of the Japanese Navy, the ships they had available to deploy, the strategy, the availability of aircraft, the ability to decode Japanese messages, the repairs to the Yorktown. In short it only influenced the decision to secure the Pacific. It had no affect on the battle. If the Doolittle Raid was so successful, why was it never repeated? Because from a military standpoint it wasted planes and pilots with almost no damage to the Japanese mainland. Dan |
#5
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Final Reunion....
On 3/31/2015 12:11 PM, wrote:
On Tuesday, March 31, 2015 at 10:27:15 AM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote: The Battle of Midway was not the direct result of Doolittle's raid. Since you think it was, explain the direct connection. At best it contributed to Japan's decision to secure the Pacific region , but there was no direct connection. The raid did not have any effect on the Japanese military strength. Dan ================ http://armedforcesmuseum.com/world-w...roku-yamamoto/ "Yamamoto was agitated as he was hoping for an offensive battle in the east, which he felt would finish the American fleet. However, Naval General Staff officers were not willing to take that risk. On April 18, 1942, Tokyo and the area around it were attacked by the "Doolittle Raid". As a result, the Naval General Staff gave Yamamoto permission to implement his Midway Operation. He began to plan a rush for both Midway and the Aleutians." -jsw Just as I said. It contributed to Japan's decision to secure the Pacific. Yamamoto was pushing for an offensive battle already. It did not have any bearing on the performance of the Japanese Navy, the ships they had available to deploy, the strategy, the availability of aircraft, the ability to decode Japanese messages, the repairs to the Yorktown. In short it only influenced the decision to secure the Pacific. It had no affect on the battle. If the Doolittle Raid was so successful, why was it never repeated? Because from a military standpoint it wasted planes and pilots with almost no damage to the Japanese mainland. Dan The Doolittle raid demonstrated successfully to the Japanese that we could and would strike at the home islands and that we were still in the war. The damage was psychological and it changed the way the high command saw us as a threat. No need for a repeat, we had made our point. David |
#6
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Final Reunion....
On Tuesday, March 31, 2015 at 1:54:07 PM UTC-4, Rudy Canoza wrote:
Prediction: you will now stubbornly insist that you are right, and the academic experts are wrong. No , but I will point out you only quoted one " academic expert " who happens to be an enthusiastic Texan. I consider S.E. Morrison a academic expert. He and Doolittle considered the raid a failure. Dan |
#7
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Final Reunion....
wrote in message
... On Tuesday, March 31, 2015 at 10:27:15 AM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote: The Battle of Midway was not the direct result of Doolittle's raid. Since you think it was, explain the direct connection. At best it contributed to Japan's decision to secure the Pacific region , but there was no direct connection. The raid did not have any effect on the Japanese military strength. Dan ================ http://armedforcesmuseum.com/world-w...roku-yamamoto/ "Yamamoto was agitated as he was hoping for an offensive battle in the east, which he felt would finish the American fleet. However, Naval General Staff officers were not willing to take that risk. On April 18, 1942, Tokyo and the area around it were attacked by the "Doolittle Raid". As a result, the Naval General Staff gave Yamamoto permission to implement his Midway Operation. He began to plan a rush for both Midway and the Aleutians." -jsw Just as I said. It contributed to Japan's decision to secure the Pacific. Yamamoto was pushing for an offensive battle already. It did not have any bearing on the performance of the Japanese Navy, the ships they had available to deploy, the strategy, the availability of aircraft, the ability to decode Japanese messages, the repairs to the Yorktown. In short it only influenced the decision to secure the Pacific. It had no affect on the battle. If the Doolittle Raid was so successful, why was it never repeated? Because from a military standpoint it wasted planes and pilots with almost no damage to the Japanese mainland. Dan =============== As my reference clearly stated, without the Doolittle Raid the Battle of Midway wouldn't have happened. That's a 100% 'affect'. Most likely the confrontations near the Solomons would have been larger and harder for us instead: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Coral_Sea http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_...stern_Solomons http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_...a_Cruz_Islands We weren't as lucky during those three as at Midway. The B-25 raid couldn't be repeated because alerted Jap naval forces instead of fishing boats would have been guarding the ocean approaches, and we thought we could bomb Japan far more effectively with B-29s based in China until we could capture an unsinkable Pacific island to fly from. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Matterhorn http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing...(November_1943) "With the exception of the surprise raid at Pearl Harbor, no attack against such a formidable land target had been attempted by carrier aircraft. As such it was considered a highly dangerous mission for the aircrews and placed the carriers themselves at risk. Halsey later said the threat that the Japanese cruiser force at Rabaul posed to his landings at Bougainville was "the most desperate emergency that confronted me in my entire term as ComSoPac." "The success of the [Rabaul] raid began to change the strongly held belief that carrier-based air forces could not challenge land-based air forces." Doolittle's B-25s could attack from a greater and thus safer standoff range than carrier planes, but couldn't return and land on the ship, making the raid a one-time trick that depended on surprise. This is the man who originated the idea in response to FDR's request to do "something" against Japan to boost morale. http://www.uss-hornet.org/history/ww...is_S_Low.shtml -jsw |
#8
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Final Reunion....
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#9
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Final Reunion....
On Tuesday, March 31, 2015 at 7:13:34 PM UTC-4, Rudy Canoza wrote:
I consider S.E. Morrison a academic expert. He and Doolittle considered the raid a failure. Doolittle did *not* consider the raid to be a strategic failure, you liar. He only considered it a "failure" because all the aircraft were lost, something not in his control when the planes had to launch 170 nautical miles farther from Tokyo than planned. Doolittle expected to be courtmarshalled. From Wiki The raid caused negligible material damage to Japan, but it succeeded in its goal of raising American morale and casting doubt in Japan on the ability of its military leaders to defend their home islands. It also contributed to Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto's decision to attack Midway Island in the Central Pacific--an attack that turned into a decisive strategic defeat of the Imperial Japanese Navy (IJN) by the U.S. Navy in the Battle of Midway. Doolittle, who initially believed that loss of all his aircraft would lead to his being court-martialled, received the Medal of Honor and was promoted two steps to Brigadier General. Dan |
#10
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Final Reunion....
wrote in message
... On Tuesday, March 31, 2015 at 7:13:34 PM UTC-4, Rudy Canoza wrote: I consider S.E. Morrison a academic expert. He and Doolittle considered the raid a failure. Doolittle did *not* consider the raid to be a strategic failure, you liar. He only considered it a "failure" because all the aircraft were lost, something not in his control when the planes had to launch 170 nautical miles farther from Tokyo than planned. Doolittle expected to be courtmarshalled. From Wiki The raid caused negligible material damage to Japan, but it succeeded in its goal of raising American morale and casting doubt in Japan on the ability of its military leaders to defend their home islands. It also contributed to Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto's decision to attack Midway Island in the Central Pacific--an attack that turned into a decisive strategic defeat of the Imperial Japanese Navy (IJN) by the U.S. Navy in the Battle of Midway. Doolittle, who initially believed that loss of all his aircraft would lead to his being court-martialled, received the Medal of Honor and was promoted two steps to Brigadier General. Dan ========================= Your claim was: "The Battle of Midway was not the direct result of Doolittle's raid. Since you think it was, explain the direct connection. At best it contributed to Japan's decision to secure the Pacific region , but there was no direct connection. The raid did not have any effect on the Japanese military strength." Now you've seen the evidence that Midway WAS a direct result of the Doolittle raid, and your reference repeats it. I grant you that it didn't do much physical harm or affect their strength, but it was only expected to damage their morale and trust in their leaders, which was important since Japan was still a parliamentary democracy whose military leaders could and later did lose power, due to the loss of Saipan. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hideki_Tojo "His popularity was sky-high in the early years of the war, as Japanese forces went from one great victory to another. However, after the Battle of Midway, with the tide of war turning against Japan, Tojo faced increasing opposition from within the government and military. To strengthen his position, in February 1944, Tojo assumed the post of Chief of the Imperial Japanese Army General Staff. However, after the fall of Saipan, he was forced to resign on July 18, 1944." Doolittle's plan was to coordinate with Chennault to land and refuel in China, and he felt personally responsible for the failure to do that although the real causes were encountering the unexpected Japanese patrol boat ~200 miles before their planned launch, and perennially poor communication in China. -jsw |
#11
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Final Reunion....
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#12
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Final Reunion....
On 3/31/2015 5:54 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
wrote in message ... On Tuesday, March 31, 2015 at 7:13:34 PM UTC-4, Rudy Canoza wrote: I consider S.E. Morrison a academic expert. He and Doolittle considered the raid a failure. Doolittle did *not* consider the raid to be a strategic failure, you liar. He only considered it a "failure" because all the aircraft were lost, something not in his control when the planes had to launch 170 nautical miles farther from Tokyo than planned. Doolittle expected to be courtmarshalled. From Wiki The raid caused negligible material damage to Japan, but it succeeded in its goal of raising American morale and casting doubt in Japan on the ability of its military leaders to defend their home islands. It also contributed to Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto's decision to attack Midway Island in the Central Pacific--an attack that turned into a decisive strategic defeat of the Imperial Japanese Navy (IJN) by the U.S. Navy in the Battle of Midway. Doolittle, who initially believed that loss of all his aircraft would lead to his being court-martialled, received the Medal of Honor and was promoted two steps to Brigadier General. Dan ========================= Your claim was: "The Battle of Midway was not the direct result of Doolittle's raid. Since you think it was, explain the direct connection. At best it contributed to Japan's decision to secure the Pacific region , but there was no direct connection. The raid did not have any effect on the Japanese military strength." Now you've seen the evidence that Midway WAS a direct result of the Doolittle raid, and your reference repeats it. I grant you that it didn't do much physical harm or affect their strength, but it was only expected to damage their morale and trust in their leaders, which was important since Japan was still a parliamentary democracy whose military leaders could and later did lose power, due to the loss of Saipan. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hideki_Tojo "His popularity was sky-high in the early years of the war, as Japanese forces went from one great victory to another. However, after the Battle of Midway, with the tide of war turning against Japan, Tojo faced increasing opposition from within the government and military. To strengthen his position, in February 1944, Tojo assumed the post of Chief of the Imperial Japanese Army General Staff. However, after the fall of Saipan, he was forced to resign on July 18, 1944." Doolittle's plan was to coordinate with Chennault to land and refuel in China, and he felt personally responsible for the failure to do that although the real causes were encountering the unexpected Japanese patrol boat ~200 miles before their planned launch, and perennially poor communication in China. This seems to be the consensus opinion of historians, but it's not good enough for danny. -- Your first duty is to th' country...is to th' flag, and then...and then th' army, and then to...and then to god. Flag, Army, God - F.A.G. Mark Wieber 75th Rangers, 1971-1973 |
#13
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Final Reunion....
"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
... wrote in message ... On Tuesday, March 31, 2015 at 7:13:34 PM UTC-4, Rudy Canoza wrote: I consider S.E. Morrison a academic expert. He and Doolittle considered the raid a failure. Doolittle did *not* consider the raid to be a strategic failure, you liar. He only considered it a "failure" because all the aircraft were lost, something not in his control when the planes had to launch 170 nautical miles farther from Tokyo than planned. Doolittle expected to be courtmarshalled. From Wiki The raid caused negligible material damage to Japan, but it succeeded in its goal of raising American morale and casting doubt in Japan on the ability of its military leaders to defend their home islands. It also contributed to Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto's decision to attack Midway Island in the Central Pacific--an attack that turned into a decisive strategic defeat of the Imperial Japanese Navy (IJN) by the U.S. Navy in the Battle of Midway. Doolittle, who initially believed that loss of all his aircraft would lead to his being court-martialled, received the Medal of Honor and was promoted two steps to Brigadier General. Dan ========================= Your claim was: "The Battle of Midway was not the direct result of Doolittle's raid. Since you think it was, explain the direct connection. At best it contributed to Japan's decision to secure the Pacific region , but there was no direct connection. The raid did not have any effect on the Japanese military strength." Now you've seen the evidence that Midway WAS a direct result of the Doolittle raid, and your reference repeats it. I grant you that it didn't do much physical harm or affect their strength, but it was only expected to damage their morale and trust in their leaders, which was important since Japan was still a parliamentary democracy whose military leaders could and later did lose power, due to the loss of Saipan. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hideki_Tojo "His popularity was sky-high in the early years of the war, as Japanese forces went from one great victory to another. However, after the Battle of Midway, with the tide of war turning against Japan, Tojo faced increasing opposition from within the government and military. To strengthen his position, in February 1944, Tojo assumed the post of Chief of the Imperial Japanese Army General Staff. However, after the fall of Saipan, he was forced to resign on July 18, 1944." Doolittle's plan was to coordinate with Chennault to land and refuel in China, and he felt personally responsible for the failure to do that although the real causes were encountering the unexpected Japanese patrol boat ~200 miles before their planned launch, and perennially poor communication in China. -jsw Here's an alternate assessment of the raid. Notice that the Japanese vented their rage over being served their own medicine by massacring a quarter million Chinese civilians along the escape routes of the Raiders, a greater toll than for the two A-Bombs. http://fly.historicwings.com/2013/04...oolittle-raid/ -jsw |
#14
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Final Reunion....
On 4/1/2015 5:33 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message ... wrote in message ... On Tuesday, March 31, 2015 at 7:13:34 PM UTC-4, Rudy Canoza wrote: I consider S.E. Morrison a academic expert. He and Doolittle considered the raid a failure. Doolittle did *not* consider the raid to be a strategic failure, you liar. He only considered it a "failure" because all the aircraft were lost, something not in his control when the planes had to launch 170 nautical miles farther from Tokyo than planned. Doolittle expected to be courtmarshalled. From Wiki The raid caused negligible material damage to Japan, but it succeeded in its goal of raising American morale and casting doubt in Japan on the ability of its military leaders to defend their home islands. It also contributed to Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto's decision to attack Midway Island in the Central Pacific--an attack that turned into a decisive strategic defeat of the Imperial Japanese Navy (IJN) by the U.S. Navy in the Battle of Midway. Doolittle, who initially believed that loss of all his aircraft would lead to his being court-martialled, received the Medal of Honor and was promoted two steps to Brigadier General. Dan ========================= Your claim was: "The Battle of Midway was not the direct result of Doolittle's raid. Since you think it was, explain the direct connection. At best it contributed to Japan's decision to secure the Pacific region , but there was no direct connection. The raid did not have any effect on the Japanese military strength." Now you've seen the evidence that Midway WAS a direct result of the Doolittle raid, and your reference repeats it. I grant you that it didn't do much physical harm or affect their strength, but it was only expected to damage their morale and trust in their leaders, which was important since Japan was still a parliamentary democracy whose military leaders could and later did lose power, due to the loss of Saipan. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hideki_Tojo "His popularity was sky-high in the early years of the war, as Japanese forces went from one great victory to another. However, after the Battle of Midway, with the tide of war turning against Japan, Tojo faced increasing opposition from within the government and military. To strengthen his position, in February 1944, Tojo assumed the post of Chief of the Imperial Japanese Army General Staff. However, after the fall of Saipan, he was forced to resign on July 18, 1944." Doolittle's plan was to coordinate with Chennault to land and refuel in China, and he felt personally responsible for the failure to do that although the real causes were encountering the unexpected Japanese patrol boat ~200 miles before their planned launch, and perennially poor communication in China. -jsw Here's an alternate assessment of the raid. Notice that the Japanese vented their rage over being served their own medicine by massacring a quarter million Chinese civilians along the escape routes of the Raiders, a greater toll than for the two A-Bombs. http://fly.historicwings.com/2013/04...oolittle-raid/ Also at that site: Common Understanding [what might be called the danny caster misunderstanding]: In terms of strategic decision making as it related to the wider war in the Pacific, the Doolittle Raid did not influence Japanese political or military leaders to alter their plans and courses of action, except to perhaps reinforce the home islands for better defense in the event of another American raid. Actual Fact: The Doolittle Raid and subsequent failure of the IJN Second Fleet to find, engage and successfully defeat the American carrier task force had much wider implications. Politically, the Imperial Japanese Navy was placed in a position of having to engage and succeed against the Americans in the near term. The public and political view that if American land-based bombers could attack Tokyo then Japan was more vulnerable than many had believed was matched by the Japanese military’s own assessment that such vulnerabilities were not going to be easily reduced. This created a strong incentive to act swiftly and boldly. Thus, the ultimate outcome of the Doolittle Raid turned out to be of extraordinary supreme strategic importance — forced into stronger action in the wake of the American attack, Admiral Yamamoto made the key decision to move ahead quickly with a more robust attack on Midway Island. That decision received broad support, perhaps in large part justified and enabled by the changed political and military landscape created by the Doolittle Raid itself. -- Your first duty is to th' country...is to th' flag, and then...and then th' army, and then to...and then to god. Flag, Army, God - F.A.G. Mark Wieber 75th Rangers, 1971-1973 |
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