I'm going to be setting up shop of sorts in a commercial space with some
dodgy electrical service that's been tinkered with over the years. It has
208 volt 3 phase, which I wish to extend into my space.

There should be a A, B and C legs, but how is this order determined by
testing? I've not seen any electricians carry around an oscilloscope, so
there has to be an simpler way. Grab a small 3 phase motor and put
alligator clips on it and fuss around until it spins in the right
direction?

Cydrome Leader wrote:
I'm going to be setting up shop of sorts in a commercial space with
some dodgy electrical service that's been tinkered with over the
years. It has 208 volt 3 phase, which I wish to extend into my space.

There should be a A, B and C legs, but how is this order determined by
testing? I've not seen any electricians carry around an oscilloscope,
so there has to be an simpler way. Grab a small 3 phase motor and put
alligator clips on it and fuss around until it spins in the right
direction?

Pretty much .

--
Snag

On Fri, 16 Jan 2015 17:59:45 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
wrote:

I'm going to be setting up shop of sorts in a commercial space with some
dodgy electrical service that's been tinkered with over the years. It has
208 volt 3 phase, which I wish to extend into my space.

There should be a A, B and C legs, but how is this order determined by
testing? I've not seen any electricians carry around an oscilloscope, so
there has to be an simpler way. Grab a small 3 phase motor and put
alligator clips on it and fuss around until it spins in the right
direction?

As long as you can sort out the 3 hot legs and the neutral with a
voltmeter, why do you care?

If you really need to know you can use one of these:
http://www.mcmaster.com/#phase-rotation-meters/=vhss52

Or make one with something like this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/271715699610

Oriental makes the smallest standard 3-phase motors I'm aware of.
Bodine also makes a few sub-fractional 3-phase motors, but not as
small as Oriental's.

--
Ned Simmons

"Cydrome Leader" wrote in message
...
I'm going to be setting up shop of sorts in a commercial space with some
dodgy electrical service that's been tinkered with over the years. It has
208 volt 3 phase, which I wish to extend into my space.

There should be a A, B and C legs, but how is this order determined by
testing? I've not seen any electricians carry around an oscilloscope, so
there has to be an simpler way. Grab a small 3 phase motor and put
alligator clips on it and fuss around until it spins in the right
direction?

Pretty much. I have a meter with some functions for that sort of
application, but I never use them. I just hook up a motor and see which way
it spins. Swap any two legs to reverse. Even on VFD outputs. I can see
some mechanical applications where that might be a problem, but I have not
run into one yet.

On 1/16/2015 12:59 PM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
I'm going to be setting up shop of sorts in a commercial space with some
dodgy electrical service that's been tinkered with over the years. It has
208 volt 3 phase, which I wish to extend into my space.

There should be a A, B and C legs, but how is this order determined by
testing? I've not seen any electricians carry around an oscilloscope, so
there has to be an simpler way. Grab a small 3 phase motor and put
alligator clips on it and fuss around until it spins in the right
direction?



Why do you want to label each leg? Or, do you just want all three legs
where you want to use power and make sure that a wire IS part of the
3-phase?

Tom Gardner wrote:
On 1/16/2015 12:59 PM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
I'm going to be setting up shop of sorts in a commercial space with some
dodgy electrical service that's been tinkered with over the years. It has
208 volt 3 phase, which I wish to extend into my space.

There should be a A, B and C legs, but how is this order determined by
testing? I've not seen any electricians carry around an oscilloscope, so
there has to be an simpler way. Grab a small 3 phase motor and put
alligator clips on it and fuss around until it spins in the right
direction?



Why do you want to label each leg? Or, do you just want all three legs
where you want to use power and make sure that a wire IS part of the
3-phase?

I know which wires provide 3 phase, just not their phase. If I can
identify and mark all this first I don't have to do this test ever again
if I add outlets or anything like that.

I can't imagine they trial and errors this every time wire up a new
device.

On Fri, 16 Jan 2015 22:17:47 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
wrote:

Tom Gardner wrote:
On 1/16/2015 12:59 PM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
I'm going to be setting up shop of sorts in a commercial space with some
dodgy electrical service that's been tinkered with over the years. It has
208 volt 3 phase, which I wish to extend into my space.

There should be a A, B and C legs, but how is this order determined by
testing? I've not seen any electricians carry around an oscilloscope, so
there has to be an simpler way. Grab a small 3 phase motor and put
alligator clips on it and fuss around until it spins in the right
direction?



Why do you want to label each leg? Or, do you just want all three legs
where you want to use power and make sure that a wire IS part of the
3-phase?

I know which wires provide 3 phase, just not their phase. If I can
identify and mark all this first I don't have to do this test ever again
if I add outlets or anything like that.

I can't imagine they trial and errors this every time wire up a new
device.

"They" do just that. I can't recall ever using, or seeing someone use,
one of the phase rotation gizmos. Nor can I remember the last time I
saw a piece of equipment that came with info that would guarantee
getting the phase rotation right on the first try.

If reverse rotation is absolutely unacceptable for even a second or
two, you remove a belt, disconnect a coupling, etc. Hydraulic pumps
are often the most difficult thing to deal with.

--
Ned Simmons

Where we really, really cared for the vacuum pump motors, we'd toss a
phase rotation indicator on the control panel. About $115 in 1983
dollars. Likely can find something cheaper now. I see a hand-held
clip-on in the $80 range, or a few more if you want it from McMaster.

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by
Please don't feed the trolls. Killfile and ignore them so they will go away.

On Fri, 16 Jan 2015 22:17:47 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
wrote:

Tom Gardner wrote:
On 1/16/2015 12:59 PM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
I'm going to be setting up shop of sorts in a commercial space with some
dodgy electrical service that's been tinkered with over the years. It has
208 volt 3 phase, which I wish to extend into my space.

There should be a A, B and C legs, but how is this order determined by
testing? I've not seen any electricians carry around an oscilloscope, so
there has to be an simpler way. Grab a small 3 phase motor and put
alligator clips on it and fuss around until it spins in the right
direction?



Why do you want to label each leg? Or, do you just want all three legs
where you want to use power and make sure that a wire IS part of the
3-phase?

I know which wires provide 3 phase, just not their phase. If I can
identify and mark all this first I don't have to do this test ever again
if I add outlets or anything like that.

I can't imagine they trial and errors this every time wire up a new
device.
I have never seen the phase relationship re rotation marked on a
motor. However, every CNC machine I have connected always admonished
in the manual to connect the three phase properly so that the motors
would rotate in the correct direction. So I would always wire up the
coolant or lube oil pump motor and check to see if rotation was
correct. This has always worked for me, and I have wired up a lot of
machines, CNC and manual.
Eric

Cydrome Leader wrote:

I'm going to be setting up shop of sorts in a commercial space with some
dodgy electrical service that's been tinkered with over the years. It has
208 volt 3 phase, which I wish to extend into my space.

There should be a A, B and C legs, but how is this order determined by
testing? I've not seen any electricians carry around an oscilloscope, so
there has to be an simpler way. Grab a small 3 phase motor and put
alligator clips on it and fuss around until it spins in the right
direction?


No 'Phase Tape' on the incoming lines?


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...

Cydrome Leader wrote:

I'm going to be setting up shop of sorts in a commercial space with
some
dodgy electrical service that's been tinkered with over the years.
It has
208 volt 3 phase, which I wish to extend into my space.

There should be a A, B and C legs, but how is this order determined
by
testing? I've not seen any electricians carry around an
oscilloscope, so
there has to be an simpler way. Grab a small 3 phase motor and put
alligator clips on it and fuss around until it spins in the right
direction?


No 'Phase Tape' on the incoming lines?

http://www.amazon.com/Brady-PWM-L1-L.../dp/B0057JRY3A

On Friday, January 16, 2015 at 9:59:49 AM UTC-8, Cydrome Leader wrote:
I'm going to be setting up shop of sorts in a commercial space with some
dodgy electrical service that's been tinkered with over the years....

There should be a A, B and C legs, but how is this order determined by
testing?

It's determined by wiring all the sockets alike (and you can check the
wire colors at the breaker panel and at the socket, if there's any doubt).
Few, if any, electricians will mix their wiring color conventions.

If you know electronics... set a flip-flop on A, reset it on B, and if the
output more often LOW than HIGH, the order is A-B-C; if the
output is more often HIGH than LOW, the order is A-C-B. If someone
wants $100 for the tester, it's because of the fancy don't-shock-me probe wires.

On 2015-01-16, Ned Simmons wrote:
On Fri, 16 Jan 2015 22:17:47 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
wrote:

Tom Gardner wrote:
On 1/16/2015 12:59 PM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
I'm going to be setting up shop of sorts in a commercial space with some
dodgy electrical service that's been tinkered with over the years. It has
208 volt 3 phase, which I wish to extend into my space.

There should be a A, B and C legs, but how is this order determined by
testing? I've not seen any electricians carry around an oscilloscope, so
there has to be an simpler way. Grab a small 3 phase motor and put
alligator clips on it and fuss around until it spins in the right
direction?

[ ... ]

Why do you want to label each leg? Or, do you just want all three legs
where you want to use power and make sure that a wire IS part of the
3-phase?

[ ... ]

I can't imagine they trial and errors this every time wire up a new
device.

"They" do just that. I can't recall ever using, or seeing someone use,
one of the phase rotation gizmos. Nor can I remember the last time I
saw a piece of equipment that came with info that would guarantee
getting the phase rotation right on the first try.

Well ... at work we had a power supply (solid-state electronics)
driven from three phase, and with something like 200A and 50V output.
It came with dire warnings that connecting reversed phase to it would
instantly kill it.

If reverse rotation is absolutely unacceptable for even a second or
two, you remove a belt, disconnect a coupling, etc. Hydraulic pumps
are often the most difficult thing to deal with.

Or if it is*something like the power supply above, where there
*is* no motor to look at -- then a phase tester is worth while. IIRC, I
found a circuit for one using resistors, caps and neon pilot lamps in
one of the annual "circuits" books from an industrial electronics
magazine.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Cydrome Leader wrote:

I'm going to be setting up shop of sorts in a commercial space with some
dodgy electrical service that's been tinkered with over the years. It has
208 volt 3 phase, which I wish to extend into my space.

There should be a A, B and C legs, but how is this order determined by
testing? I've not seen any electricians carry around an oscilloscope, so
there has to be an simpler way. Grab a small 3 phase motor and put
alligator clips on it and fuss around until it spins in the right
direction?


No 'Phase Tape' on the incoming lines?

I've not ripped off the panel yet to see exactly what surprises are back
there. The last panel had about a half dozen double tapped breakers. The
electric company seems to like to mark their wiring around here on the
utility poles, but past that, there doesn't seem to be any real standard
for marking wiring other than neutral is white, and anything else could be
hot. I know orange tape on hot can sometimes mean it's special, but again,
there's no real way to trust what the last person did.

Do the non-lazy electricians take the extra 15 seconds to just write A B
and C on wiring or inside panels?

On 1/16/2015 2:17 PM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
Tom Gardner wrote:

I can't imagine they trial and errors this every time wire up a new
device.

Even the power companies get it wrong.

I worked for a large computer service bureau in the 1970's. One day I
watched a transformer turn red and blow out a top insulator. Three
transformers feeding 3-phase to the building. We had a combination of
Burrought and IBM main frame computers.

The local power company quickly came and replaced the bad transformer.
With power restored, the first computer to boot up was an IBM 360. All
the tape drives unwound their tapes. The motors were 3-phase and were
now wired wrong. Power company redid their wiring and all was ok.

Paul

On 1/16/2015 11:59 AM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
I'm going to be setting up shop of sorts in a commercial space with some
dodgy electrical service that's been tinkered with over the years. It has
208 volt 3 phase, which I wish to extend into my space.

There should be a A, B and C legs, but how is this order determined by
testing? I've not seen any electricians carry around an oscilloscope, so
there has to be an simpler way. Grab a small 3 phase motor and put
alligator clips on it and fuss around until it spins in the right
direction?





If you are concerned with rotation issue - just swap two and it reverses.

There might be a 'wild' leg, might not. Put wild on lights and heaters...

Use the two good and a wild for real 3 phase. If you put a computer
on a wild phase you can have issues...

Martin - 377 three phase in shop from my 208 single phase.

On 1/16/2015 5:02 PM, Ned Simmons wrote:
On Fri, 16 Jan 2015 22:17:47 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
wrote:

Tom Gardner wrote:
On 1/16/2015 12:59 PM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
I'm going to be setting up shop of sorts in a commercial space with some
dodgy electrical service that's been tinkered with over the years. It has
208 volt 3 phase, which I wish to extend into my space.

There should be a A, B and C legs, but how is this order determined by
testing? I've not seen any electricians carry around an oscilloscope, so
there has to be an simpler way. Grab a small 3 phase motor and put
alligator clips on it and fuss around until it spins in the right
direction?



Why do you want to label each leg? Or, do you just want all three legs
where you want to use power and make sure that a wire IS part of the
3-phase?

I know which wires provide 3 phase, just not their phase. If I can
identify and mark all this first I don't have to do this test ever again
if I add outlets or anything like that.

I can't imagine they trial and errors this every time wire up a new
device.

"They" do just that. I can't recall ever using, or seeing someone use,
one of the phase rotation gizmos. Nor can I remember the last time I
saw a piece of equipment that came with info that would guarantee
getting the phase rotation right on the first try.

If reverse rotation is absolutely unacceptable for even a second or
two, you remove a belt, disconnect a coupling, etc. Hydraulic pumps
are often the most difficult thing to deal with.

Some can - tin can - machines run on 3 phase and direction wrong will
mess up the machine - needing new parts.
There are simple phase units that use neon bulbs to view. They use RC
networks to sort it out.

Martin

On 1/16/2015 7:39 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Cydrome Leader wrote:

I'm going to be setting up shop of sorts in a commercial space with some
dodgy electrical service that's been tinkered with over the years. It has
208 volt 3 phase, which I wish to extend into my space.

There should be a A, B and C legs, but how is this order determined by
testing? I've not seen any electricians carry around an oscilloscope, so
there has to be an simpler way. Grab a small 3 phase motor and put
alligator clips on it and fuss around until it spins in the right
direction?


No 'Phase Tape' on the incoming lines?


Exactly. The Phase Tape is a fuse. If it blows - something is wrong.
If it doesn't and all works - take out the tapes and make permanent
connections.

A local college installed a brand new CNC machine - a big one. Large
industry here that uses big machines. Foundry and 50' gears...

So some one - I hope not a master electrician - wired up the unit on a
major panel. He only got a phase and ground swapped. The ground line
back to the machine and then in the back routed to earth ground -
shorted the main transformer for the campus. It was out for 18 hours.

Heads rolled on that one.

Martin

DoN. Nichols wrote:
On 2015-01-16, Ned Simmons wrote:
On Fri, 16 Jan 2015 22:17:47 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
wrote:

Tom Gardner wrote:
On 1/16/2015 12:59 PM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
I'm going to be setting up shop of sorts in a commercial space
with some dodgy electrical service that's been tinkered with over
the years. It has 208 volt 3 phase, which I wish to extend into
my space.

There should be a A, B and C legs, but how is this order
determined by testing? I've not seen any electricians carry
around an oscilloscope, so there has to be an simpler way. Grab a
small 3 phase motor and put alligator clips on it and fuss around
until it spins in the right direction?

[ ... ]

Why do you want to label each leg? Or, do you just want all three
legs where you want to use power and make sure that a wire IS part
of the 3-phase?

[ ... ]

I can't imagine they trial and errors this every time wire up a new
device.

"They" do just that. I can't recall ever using, or seeing someone
use, one of the phase rotation gizmos. Nor can I remember the last
time I saw a piece of equipment that came with info that would
guarantee getting the phase rotation right on the first try.

Well ... at work we had a power supply (solid-state electronics)
driven from three phase, and with something like 200A and 50V output.
It came with dire warnings that connecting reversed phase to it would
instantly kill it.

If reverse rotation is absolutely unacceptable for even a second or
two, you remove a belt, disconnect a coupling, etc. Hydraulic pumps
are often the most difficult thing to deal with.

Or if it is something like the power supply above, where there
*is* no motor to look at -- then a phase tester is worth while.
IIRC, I found a circuit for one using resistors, caps and neon pilot
lamps in one of the annual "circuits" books from an industrial
electronics magazine.

Enjoy,
DoN.

Don't recall which port it was ( might have been Sasebo Japan), but while
we were WestPac in '72 we managed to get shore power hooked up reversed .
Senior Chief MM grabbed me as I was headed for shore and said "I've got over
a million dollars worth of powerplant running backwards , get us back on
ship's power!!" The whole damn ship (destroyer , 300 feet long and 42 wide)
jumped when that breaker engaged . Made a helluva noise .

--
Snag

On 1/16/2015 5:17 PM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
Tom Gardner wrote:
On 1/16/2015 12:59 PM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
I'm going to be setting up shop of sorts in a commercial space with some
dodgy electrical service that's been tinkered with over the years. It has
208 volt 3 phase, which I wish to extend into my space.

There should be a A, B and C legs, but how is this order determined by
testing? I've not seen any electricians carry around an oscilloscope, so
there has to be an simpler way. Grab a small 3 phase motor and put
alligator clips on it and fuss around until it spins in the right
direction?



Why do you want to label each leg? Or, do you just want all three legs
where you want to use power and make sure that a wire IS part of the
3-phase?

I know which wires provide 3 phase, just not their phase. If I can
identify and mark all this first I don't have to do this test ever again
if I add outlets or anything like that.

I can't imagine they trial and errors this every time wire up a new
device.


I always did! Especially when wiring a 3-phase outlet. I couldn't
think of a faster, more sure method. I will be watching this thread.

On Sat, 17 Jan 2015 01:41:35 -0500, Tom Gardner
wrote:

On 1/16/2015 5:17 PM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
Tom Gardner wrote:
On 1/16/2015 12:59 PM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
I'm going to be setting up shop of sorts in a commercial space with some
dodgy electrical service that's been tinkered with over the years. It has
208 volt 3 phase, which I wish to extend into my space.

There should be a A, B and C legs, but how is this order determined by
testing? I've not seen any electricians carry around an oscilloscope, so
there has to be an simpler way. Grab a small 3 phase motor and put
alligator clips on it and fuss around until it spins in the right
direction?



Why do you want to label each leg? Or, do you just want all three legs
where you want to use power and make sure that a wire IS part of the
3-phase?

I know which wires provide 3 phase, just not their phase. If I can
identify and mark all this first I don't have to do this test ever again
if I add outlets or anything like that.

I can't imagine they trial and errors this every time wire up a new
device.


I always did! Especially when wiring a 3-phase outlet. I couldn't
think of a faster, more sure method. I will be watching this thread.

Most of the time I did the same. However, on two large r&d projects
where we had 15-20 motors, we did use a phase meter. I don't remember
what type. On those projects, I did the control programming and
programmed all the vfd's. Since I preferred an active tune, I had
them all uncoupled initially anyway.

Most of my pumps were positive displacement, but I've seen
centrifugals with threaded spindles where getting the rotation wrong
would spin the impeller off, damaging the housing, impeller, and
spindle in the process. Even before vfd's, we started those up
uncoupled first.

Pete Keillor

"Cydrome Leader" wrote in message
...

Do the non-lazy electricians take the extra 15 seconds to just write
A B
and C on wiring or inside panels?

I was taught to label every wire on both ends to match the schematic.
The incoming phases were 1L1, 1L2, 1L3 and they stepped to 2L1, 3L1
etc as they passed through breakers and contactors.

In prototype electric vehicles where text is more useful than numbers
we printed the wire labels on white heatshrink.

For home projects I write on the heatshrink with a fine Sharpie and
color code with nail polish.

-jsw

determine legs in 3 phase

On Friday, January 16, 2015 at 12:59:49 PM UTC-5, Cydrome Leader wrote in rec.crafts.metalworking:
I'm going to be setting up shop of sorts in a commercial space with some
dodgy electrical service that's been tinkered with over the years. It has
208 volt 3 phase, which I wish to extend into my space.

There should be a A, B and C legs, but how is this order determined by
testing?

In testing you normally use black, red and blue for live low voltage and brown, orange and yellow for high voltage connections.

For low voltage, black fingernail polish or tape for 'A' connections, red for 'B' and blue for 'C'. Use green for Ground-only connections and white or Grey for neutral connections.

For high voltage, brown fingernail polish or tape for 'A' connections, orange for 'B' and yellow for 'C'. Green is still used for Ground-only connections and white or Grey for neutral connections.

On Fri, 16 Jan 2015 17:59:45 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
wrote:

I'm going to be setting up shop of sorts in a commercial space with some
dodgy electrical service that's been tinkered with over the years. It has
208 volt 3 phase, which I wish to extend into my space.

There should be a A, B and C legs, but how is this order determined by
testing? I've not seen any electricians carry around an oscilloscope, so
there has to be an simpler way. Grab a small 3 phase motor and put
alligator clips on it and fuss around until it spins in the right
direction?

It really doesnt make much sense to try to ID the legs. If the motor
turns backwards..simply swap any two leads.

Gunner






"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child,
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosophy of sniveling brats."
PJ O'Rourke

On Fri, 16 Jan 2015 22:17:47 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
wrote:

Tom Gardner wrote:
On 1/16/2015 12:59 PM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
I'm going to be setting up shop of sorts in a commercial space with some
dodgy electrical service that's been tinkered with over the years. It has
208 volt 3 phase, which I wish to extend into my space.

There should be a A, B and C legs, but how is this order determined by
testing? I've not seen any electricians carry around an oscilloscope, so
there has to be an simpler way. Grab a small 3 phase motor and put
alligator clips on it and fuss around until it spins in the right
direction?



Why do you want to label each leg? Or, do you just want all three legs
where you want to use power and make sure that a wire IS part of the
3-phase?

I know which wires provide 3 phase, just not their phase. If I can
identify and mark all this first I don't have to do this test ever again
if I add outlets or anything like that.

I can't imagine they trial and errors this every time wire up a new
device.

Oh but they do. Trust me.

http://www.3phasepower.org/3phasewiring.htm


"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child,
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosophy of sniveling brats."
PJ O'Rourke

On Fri, 16 Jan 2015 16:42:01 -0800, wrote:

On Fri, 16 Jan 2015 22:17:47 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
wrote:

Tom Gardner wrote:
On 1/16/2015 12:59 PM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
I'm going to be setting up shop of sorts in a commercial space with some
dodgy electrical service that's been tinkered with over the years. It has
208 volt 3 phase, which I wish to extend into my space.

There should be a A, B and C legs, but how is this order determined by
testing? I've not seen any electricians carry around an oscilloscope, so
there has to be an simpler way. Grab a small 3 phase motor and put
alligator clips on it and fuss around until it spins in the right
direction?



Why do you want to label each leg? Or, do you just want all three legs
where you want to use power and make sure that a wire IS part of the
3-phase?

I know which wires provide 3 phase, just not their phase. If I can
identify and mark all this first I don't have to do this test ever again
if I add outlets or anything like that.

I can't imagine they trial and errors this every time wire up a new
device.
I have never seen the phase relationship re rotation marked on a
motor. However, every CNC machine I have connected always admonished
in the manual to connect the three phase properly so that the motors
would rotate in the correct direction. So I would always wire up the
coolant or lube oil pump motor and check to see if rotation was
correct. This has always worked for me, and I have wired up a lot of
machines, CNC and manual.
Eric

^5 !!!

Gunner

"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child,
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosophy of sniveling brats."
PJ O'Rourke

On Fri, 16 Jan 2015 18:22:10 -0800 (PST), whit3rd
wrote:

On Friday, January 16, 2015 at 9:59:49 AM UTC-8, Cydrome Leader wrote:
I'm going to be setting up shop of sorts in a commercial space with some
dodgy electrical service that's been tinkered with over the years....

There should be a A, B and C legs, but how is this order determined by
testing?

It's determined by wiring all the sockets alike (and you can check the
wire colors at the breaker panel and at the socket, if there's any doubt).
Few, if any, electricians will mix their wiring color conventions.

If you know electronics... set a flip-flop on A, reset it on B, and if the
output more often LOW than HIGH, the order is A-B-C; if the
output is more often HIGH than LOW, the order is A-C-B. If someone
wants $100 for the tester, it's because of the fancy don't-shock-me probe wires.

A little oddly put..but valid.

Now that largely depends on the machine manufacturer getting his A-B-C
matched up with your power co ABC

Ive seen here in So Cal...the high leg being on L1 OR L2..but never on
L3, at the input to the building (power co responsibility) . Once the
master has been installed..its up to the owner to make sure its the
same in ALL the subs.

And then they bring in a machine that isnt ABC but ACB...sigh

So pull the fuses to the control and the drives and power up the
coolant pump and use it as the indicator. Which was a great
suggestion by one of you guys.

Gunner



"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child,
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosophy of sniveling brats."
PJ O'Rourke

On Fri, 16 Jan 2015 22:50:01 -0600, Martin Eastburn
wrote:

On 1/16/2015 11:59 AM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
I'm going to be setting up shop of sorts in a commercial space with some
dodgy electrical service that's been tinkered with over the years. It has
208 volt 3 phase, which I wish to extend into my space.

There should be a A, B and C legs, but how is this order determined by
testing? I've not seen any electricians carry around an oscilloscope, so
there has to be an simpler way. Grab a small 3 phase motor and put
alligator clips on it and fuss around until it spins in the right
direction?





If you are concerned with rotation issue - just swap two and it reverses.

There might be a 'wild' leg, might not. Put wild on lights and heaters...

Use the two good and a wild for real 3 phase. If you put a computer
on a wild phase you can have issues...

Martin - 377 three phase in shop from my 208 single phase.

Oooh! ******* Inverted Delta Y!!

Love those power companies!!

Gunner

"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child,
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosophy of sniveling brats."
PJ O'Rourke

On Fri, 16 Jan 2015 22:50:01 -0600, Martin Eastburn
wrote:

On 1/16/2015 11:59 AM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
I'm going to be setting up shop of sorts in a commercial space with some
dodgy electrical service that's been tinkered with over the years. It has
208 volt 3 phase, which I wish to extend into my space.

There should be a A, B and C legs, but how is this order determined by
testing? I've not seen any electricians carry around an oscilloscope, so
there has to be an simpler way. Grab a small 3 phase motor and put
alligator clips on it and fuss around until it spins in the right
direction?

If you are concerned with rotation issue - just swap two and it reverses.

There might be a 'wild' leg, might not. Put wild on lights and heaters...

Use the two good and a wild for real 3 phase. If you put a computer
on a wild phase you can have issues...

Martin - 377 three phase in shop from my 208 single phase.

Sure. And just in case you've scared the fire department, maybe here's how to tidy things up to standard per code:

"The high leg service conductor of a 4-wire, 3-phase, delta connected service must be permanently marked orange or identified by other effective means [NEC Article 230-56], and must terminate according to the following: meter termination: ANSI requires termination on the C phase; panelboard and switchboard termination on the B or center phase [NEC Article 384-3(f)]. "

On Fri, 16 Jan 2015 17:59:45 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
wrote:

There should be a A, B and C legs, but how is this order determined by
testing? I've not seen any electricians carry around an oscilloscope, so
there has to be an simpler way. Grab a small 3 phase motor and put
alligator clips on it and fuss around until it spins in the right
direction?

I have two types of phase rotation indicators.

One is round and contains a tiny electric motor that spins a pointer.
One direction is labeled "ABC" and the other is labeled "ACB"

The other one simply has 2 neon lamps, one for "ABC" and the other for
"ACB".

John

John DeArmond
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.fluxeon.com
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
See website for email address

Martin Eastburn wrote:

On 1/16/2015 7:39 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Cydrome Leader wrote:

I'm going to be setting up shop of sorts in a commercial space with some
dodgy electrical service that's been tinkered with over the years. It has
208 volt 3 phase, which I wish to extend into my space.

There should be a A, B and C legs, but how is this order determined by
testing? I've not seen any electricians carry around an oscilloscope, so
there has to be an simpler way. Grab a small 3 phase motor and put
alligator clips on it and fuss around until it spins in the right
direction?


No 'Phase Tape' on the incoming lines?


Exactly. The Phase Tape is a fuse. If it blows - something is wrong.
If it doesn't and all works - take out the tapes and make permanent
connections.

A local college installed a brand new CNC machine - a big one. Large
industry here that uses big machines. Foundry and 50' gears...

So some one - I hope not a master electrician - wired up the unit on a
major panel. He only got a phase and ground swapped. The ground line
back to the machine and then in the back routed to earth ground -
shorted the main transformer for the campus. It was out for 18 hours.

Heads rolled on that one.


They should have. I had a call for a dead scoreboard at a high
school. It was a bad breaker, in a huge panel near the gym. It was so
messy that one of the phases was hidden, and against the inside of the
lip that held the cover. I set the cover back in place, and before I
could tighten the dogs, I tripped a 400A three phase breaker in the main
electrical room. That shut down 1/3 of the school. SOmeone had done it
before, and didn't bother to bend it back out of the way, or cover the
damage. They just wiggled the dogs on that side under the wire. I
reported the repair, and problem to the head of their maintenance
department, and was told about all the other shoddy work they had found
on the 20 year old building. It sounded like some disgruntled idiot was
out to kill someone.


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

Neon John wrote:
On Fri, 16 Jan 2015 17:59:45 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
wrote:

There should be a A, B and C legs, but how is this order determined by
testing? I've not seen any electricians carry around an oscilloscope, so
there has to be an simpler way. Grab a small 3 phase motor and put
alligator clips on it and fuss around until it spins in the right
direction?

I have two types of phase rotation indicators.

One is round and contains a tiny electric motor that spins a pointer.
One direction is labeled "ABC" and the other is labeled "ACB"

The other one simply has 2 neon lamps, one for "ABC" and the other for
"ACB".

Is this neon tester something can be popped open and photographed?
Somebody mentioned the term "phase rotation" and bam, I see the $15
testers on ebay and amazon now.

Not sure I'd trust those things to not explode with all the leads
vaporizing at the same time. I just imagine wires and floor sweeping
componensts twisted together inside a plastic case.

It does sound like everybody does just test things first and a small motor
or fan might be the best way to do this, unless I make a tester for the
hell of it. Playing with neon indicator lamps again might be fun.

On 2015-01-19, Cydrome Leader wrote:
Neon John wrote:
On Fri, 16 Jan 2015 17:59:45 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
wrote:

There should be a A, B and C legs, but how is this order determined by
testing? I've not seen any electricians carry around an oscilloscope, so
there has to be an simpler way. Grab a small 3 phase motor and put
alligator clips on it and fuss around until it spins in the right
direction?

I have two types of phase rotation indicators.

One is round and contains a tiny electric motor that spins a pointer.
One direction is labeled "ABC" and the other is labeled "ACB"

The other one simply has 2 neon lamps, one for "ABC" and the other for
"ACB".

Is this neon tester something can be popped open and photographed?
Somebody mentioned the term "phase rotation" and bam, I see the $15
testers on ebay and amazon now.


Here's how to build a very simple one:

http://webspace.webring.com/people/gl/lemagicien/elecpage/3phase/3phase.html



Not sure I'd trust those things to not explode with all the leads
vaporizing at the same time. I just imagine wires and floor sweeping
componensts twisted together inside a plastic case.

It does sound like everybody does just test things first and a small motor
or fan might be the best way to do this, unless I make a tester for the
hell of it. Playing with neon indicator lamps again might be fun.

Good Luck,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On 1/19/2015 12:14 PM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
Neon John wrote:
On Fri, 16 Jan 2015 17:59:45 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
wrote:

There should be a A, B and C legs, but how is this order determined by
testing? I've not seen any electricians carry around an oscilloscope, so
there has to be an simpler way. Grab a small 3 phase motor and put
alligator clips on it and fuss around until it spins in the right
direction?

I have two types of phase rotation indicators.

One is round and contains a tiny electric motor that spins a pointer.
One direction is labeled "ABC" and the other is labeled "ACB"

The other one simply has 2 neon lamps, one for "ABC" and the other for
"ACB".

Is this neon tester something can be popped open and photographed?
Somebody mentioned the term "phase rotation" and bam, I see the $15
testers on ebay and amazon now.

Not sure I'd trust those things to not explode with all the leads
vaporizing at the same time. I just imagine wires and floor sweeping
componensts twisted together inside a plastic case.

It does sound like everybody does just test things first and a small motor
or fan might be the best way to do this, unless I make a tester for the
hell of it. Playing with neon indicator lamps again might be fun.

Neon bulbs draw milliamps or they explode. The reactance of the parts
limit the current. The insulation is important and the 'voltage' range
that it works in is important. e.g. 120v or more and less than 440 or
some such. Insulation of the leads and circuit as well as the parts
require the high voltage spec while the low end is the Neon (63V) and
other components dropping voltage.

Martin

Martin

On 1/17/2015 7:07 AM, Pete Keillor wrote:

Most of the time I did the same. However, on two large r&d projects
where we had 15-20 motors, we did use a phase meter. I don't remember
what type. On those projects, I did the control programming and
programmed all the vfd's. Since I preferred an active tune, I had
them all uncoupled initially anyway.

Most of my pumps were positive displacement, but I've seen
centrifugals with threaded spindles where getting the rotation wrong
would spin the impeller off, damaging the housing, impeller, and
spindle in the process. Even before vfd's, we started those up
uncoupled first.

Pete Keillor


I've never had to worry about such. My bud had a device that would
place an RF signal on a wire and he could then trace it through the
shop. It sure came in handy tracking down a mysterious ground loop or
whatever you call it.

On Monday, January 19, 2015 at 8:10:24 PM UTC-8, DoN. Nichols wrote:
On 2015-01-19, Cydrome Leader wrote:
Neon John wrote:
On Fri, 16 Jan 2015 17:59:45 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
wrote:

There should be a A, B and C legs, but how is this order determined by
testing?

Here's how to build a very simple one:

http://webspace.webring.com/people/gl/lemagicien/elecpage/3phase/3phase.html

That 'schematic' shows lamps, but the thing WILL blow up if you put a simple neon
lamp in those positions: you need to use neon lamps plus current-limit resistors,
and the circuit works because of the high strike voltage and lower sustain voltage
of the neon lamps (can't do this with LEDs!).
It looks like the first lamp to fire causes the capacitor offset voltage to shift,
so the second lamp is dimmer. It isn't polarity-sensitive, the lamps will flash
twice per cycle.

On 1/20/2015 3:12 PM, whit3rd wrote:
On Monday, January 19, 2015 at 8:10:24 PM UTC-8, DoN. Nichols wrote:
Here's how to build a very simple one:

http://webspace.webring.com/people/gl/lemagicien/elecpage/3phase/3phase.html

That 'schematic' shows lamps, but the thing WILL blow up if you put a simple neon
lamp in those positions: ...

Actually, that circuit is for INCANDESCENT lamps.

On Tuesday, January 20, 2015 at 1:46:26 PM UTC-8, Bob Engelhardt wrote:
On 1/20/2015 3:12 PM, whit3rd wrote:

That 'schematic' shows lamps, but the thing WILL blow up if you put a simple neon
lamp in those positions: ...

Actually, that circuit is for INCANDESCENT lamps.

Yep, I missed that. It relies on lamp resistance value as well as incandescence,
which is an odd combination. Hot lamps are much higher resistance than cold ones.
I'd guess a neon-plus-resistor would allow more voltage range, and you could keep
a single capacitor value

On 2015-01-20, whit3rd wrote:
On Monday, January 19, 2015 at 8:10:24 PM UTC-8, DoN. Nichols wrote:
On 2015-01-19, Cydrome Leader wrote:
Neon John wrote:
On Fri, 16 Jan 2015 17:59:45 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
wrote:

There should be a A, B and C legs, but how is this order determined by
testing?

Here's how to build a very simple one:

http://webspace.webring.com/people/gl/lemagicien/elecpage/3phase/3phase.html

That 'schematic' shows lamps, but the thing WILL blow up if you put a simple neon
lamp in those positions: you need to use neon lamps plus current-limit resistors,
and the circuit works because of the high strike voltage and lower sustain voltage
of the neon lamps (can't do this with LEDs!).
It looks like the first lamp to fire causes the capacitor offset voltage to shift,
so the second lamp is dimmer. It isn't polarity-sensitive, the lamps will flash
twice per cycle.

Not at all sure that the lamps are neon lamps. I think small
incandescent lamps rated for the voltage of the supply being tested.

It is dependent on the impedance of the capacitor and the lamp
acting as a voltage divider, and the second lamp sees less voltage
because of the phase shift.

There are formulas at the end for selecting the proper values of
resistors (if any) and capacitors to go with the lamps and the power
lone voltage and frequency.

Note that common pilot light Neons have the current limiting
resistor built into the housing for common mains voltages.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

"DoN. Nichols" fired this volley in
:

Not at all sure that the lamps are neon lamps. I think small
incandescent lamps rated for the voltage of the supply being tested.

Did everyone miss the legendry on the drawing that says, "The lamps have
ohmic resistance..."? That (sort of) declares the lamps to be
incandescent, even if you couldn't discern their function from the
schematic.

A neon (or any gas discharge lamp) has an almost infinite resistance
until it breaks over, and has a very very low ohmic resistance AFTER it
avalanches. That would pervert the action of the RC network, making it
more of a relaxation oscillator than a current indicator.

Lloyd