Is P&W 2E Jig Borer hopelessly obsolete?
 

I have this Pratt and Whitney #2E jig borer. It weighs appx. 19,000
lbs. I wonder if my supposition is true and no one wants those these
days?

Picture

http://goo.gl/hko1pu

i

Is P&W 2E Jig Borer hopelessly obsolete?
 

On Thu, 15 Jan 2015 19:22:57 -0600, Ignoramus15619
wrote:

I have this Pratt and Whitney #2E jig borer. It weighs appx. 19,000
lbs. I wonder if my supposition is true and no one wants those these
days?

Picture

http://goo.gl/hko1pu

I think you know the answers here, Ig. Yes, it is obsolete. Yes, there
are some of them still in use. No, we don't know whether there's
someone out there who wants one or what they'd pay.

Those big old jig borers, from DeVlieg and P&W, are something like big
VBMs: from Bullard, etc. -- there is no real commerce in them, but
there are some in use, including some that have been converted to CNC
or at least updated with scales and DROs. I've seen a couple.

But the traffic is almost nonexistent because they're not going to be
used for a new project and an expansion. Those that are in use -- and
this applies to a lot of old machine tools, like shapers and many
pre-CNC machine tools -- are generally being used in long-running
projects, and there hasn't been a good reason to replace them with
something more productive. Yet.

I think you'd have a hard time selling it.

--
Ed Huntress

Is P&W 2E Jig Borer hopelessly obsolete?
 

On 2015-01-16, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Thu, 15 Jan 2015 19:22:57 -0600, Ignoramus15619
wrote:

I have this Pratt and Whitney #2E jig borer. It weighs appx. 19,000
lbs. I wonder if my supposition is true and no one wants those these
days?

Picture

http://goo.gl/hko1pu

I think you know the answers here, Ig. Yes, it is obsolete. Yes, there
are some of them still in use. No, we don't know whether there's
someone out there who wants one or what they'd pay.

Those big old jig borers, from DeVlieg and P&W, are something like big
VBMs: from Bullard, etc. -- there is no real commerce in them, but
there are some in use, including some that have been converted to CNC
or at least updated with scales and DROs. I've seen a couple.

But the traffic is almost nonexistent because they're not going to be
used for a new project and an expansion. Those that are in use -- and
this applies to a lot of old machine tools, like shapers and many
pre-CNC machine tools -- are generally being used in long-running
projects, and there hasn't been a good reason to replace them with
something more productive. Yet.

I think you'd have a hard time selling it.


Sadly, this is how I see it also, I will not even take it off the
trailer. Might take the T slotted table from it.

i

Is P&W 2E Jig Borer hopelessly obsolete?
 

On Thu, 15 Jan 2015 21:56:53 -0600, Ignoramus15619
wrote:

On 2015-01-16, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Thu, 15 Jan 2015 19:22:57 -0600, Ignoramus15619
wrote:

I have this Pratt and Whitney #2E jig borer. It weighs appx. 19,000
lbs. I wonder if my supposition is true and no one wants those these
days?

Picture

http://goo.gl/hko1pu

I think you know the answers here, Ig. Yes, it is obsolete. Yes, there
are some of them still in use. No, we don't know whether there's
someone out there who wants one or what they'd pay.

Those big old jig borers, from DeVlieg and P&W, are something like big
VBMs: from Bullard, etc. -- there is no real commerce in them, but
there are some in use, including some that have been converted to CNC
or at least updated with scales and DROs. I've seen a couple.

But the traffic is almost nonexistent because they're not going to be
used for a new project and an expansion. Those that are in use -- and
this applies to a lot of old machine tools, like shapers and many
pre-CNC machine tools -- are generally being used in long-running
projects, and there hasn't been a good reason to replace them with
something more productive. Yet.

I think you'd have a hard time selling it.


Sadly, this is how I see it also, I will not even take it off the
trailer. Might take the T slotted table from it.

i

Without getting into the details of the old-machine markets, I think
the easiest way to evaluate such machines is to subscribe to some of
the used-machine-trader newspapers -- there are quite a few of them,
and they're regional -- and see if there is any action in the machine
types you're dealing with. I just get one of them today, _Machine
Tools West_, to keep an occassional eye on it.

Another way, a lot more complicated, is to find out what they are, or
were, used for, to judge if there is still any work for them. You
really have to be into it to do that.

For example, the "jig" in the machine type refers to drill jigs. In
this case, really big ones. Before CNC, drill jigs were the #1 product
of the tool-and-die industry. We made millions of them in the US.
Today, that business is completely dead.

Jig borers and jig mills then were re-purposed to precision boring and
facing of big castings and housings. A lot of that was truck,
off-road, and military work. That work today is being done with CNC
horizontal boring mills (HBMs). Jig borers and jig mills can't begin
to compete with them.

So, that's what makes them obsolete. Even doing a CNC conversion,
which can be very practical on big machines that have some value when
converted, just isn't worth it because they're still not going to be
competitive.

Thus, machines become obsolete. Let's hope that we don't become
obsolete along with our machines.

--
Ed Huntress

Is P&W 2E Jig Borer hopelessly obsolete?
 

Ignoramus15619 wrote:
On 2015-01-16, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Thu, 15 Jan 2015 19:22:57 -0600, Ignoramus15619
wrote:

I have this Pratt and Whitney #2E jig borer. It weighs appx. 19,000
lbs. I wonder if my supposition is true and no one wants those these
days?

Picture

http://goo.gl/hko1pu

I think you know the answers here, Ig. Yes, it is obsolete. Yes, there
are some of them still in use. No, we don't know whether there's
someone out there who wants one or what they'd pay.

Those big old jig borers, from DeVlieg and P&W, are something like big
VBMs: from Bullard, etc. -- there is no real commerce in them, but
there are some in use, including some that have been converted to CNC
or at least updated with scales and DROs. I've seen a couple.

But the traffic is almost nonexistent because they're not going to be
used for a new project and an expansion. Those that are in use -- and
this applies to a lot of old machine tools, like shapers and many
pre-CNC machine tools -- are generally being used in long-running
projects, and there hasn't been a good reason to replace them with
something more productive. Yet.

I think you'd have a hard time selling it.


Sadly, this is how I see it also, I will not even take it off the
trailer. Might take the T slotted table from it.

I'd love the handwheels off that thing.

Is P&W 2E Jig Borer hopelessly obsolete?
 

On 2015-01-16, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Thu, 15 Jan 2015 21:56:53 -0600, Ignoramus15619
wrote:

On 2015-01-16, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Thu, 15 Jan 2015 19:22:57 -0600, Ignoramus15619
wrote:

I have this Pratt and Whitney #2E jig borer. It weighs appx. 19,000
lbs. I wonder if my supposition is true and no one wants those these
days?

Picture

http://goo.gl/hko1pu

I think you know the answers here, Ig. Yes, it is obsolete. Yes, there
are some of them still in use. No, we don't know whether there's
someone out there who wants one or what they'd pay.

Those big old jig borers, from DeVlieg and P&W, are something like big
VBMs: from Bullard, etc. -- there is no real commerce in them, but
there are some in use, including some that have been converted to CNC
or at least updated with scales and DROs. I've seen a couple.

But the traffic is almost nonexistent because they're not going to be
used for a new project and an expansion. Those that are in use -- and
this applies to a lot of old machine tools, like shapers and many
pre-CNC machine tools -- are generally being used in long-running
projects, and there hasn't been a good reason to replace them with
something more productive. Yet.

I think you'd have a hard time selling it.


Sadly, this is how I see it also, I will not even take it off the
trailer. Might take the T slotted table from it.

i

Without getting into the details of the old-machine markets, I think
the easiest way to evaluate such machines is to subscribe to some of
the used-machine-trader newspapers -- there are quite a few of them,
and they're regional -- and see if there is any action in the machine
types you're dealing with. I just get one of them today, _Machine
Tools West_, to keep an occassional eye on it.

Another way, a lot more complicated, is to find out what they are, or
were, used for, to judge if there is still any work for them. You
really have to be into it to do that.

For example, the "jig" in the machine type refers to drill jigs. In
this case, really big ones. Before CNC, drill jigs were the #1 product
of the tool-and-die industry. We made millions of them in the US.
Today, that business is completely dead.

Jig borers and jig mills then were re-purposed to precision boring and
facing of big castings and housings. A lot of that was truck,
off-road, and military work. That work today is being done with CNC
horizontal boring mills (HBMs). Jig borers and jig mills can't begin
to compete with them.

So, that's what makes them obsolete. Even doing a CNC conversion,
which can be very practical on big machines that have some value when
converted, just isn't worth it because they're still not going to be
competitive.

Thus, machines become obsolete. Let's hope that we don't become
obsolete along with our machines.


Right. These are purpose made machines to make tooling that is no
longer used.

The smaller ones, like Moore jig borers, are bought by "hobbyists" to
be used as glorified drill presses. People buy them, brag about them,
repaint them and then they stay forgotten in hobby shops.

CNC converting them makes very little sense, no more than "converting
a horse to be a car" by sticking a muffler in the horse's ass.

i

Is P&W 2E Jig Borer hopelessly obsolete?
 

I ended the three day auction early and I will scrap this machine on
Monday.

i

On 2015-01-16, Ignoramus15619 wrote:
I have this Pratt and Whitney #2E jig borer. It weighs appx. 19,000
lbs. I wonder if my supposition is true and no one wants those these
days?

Picture

http://goo.gl/hko1pu

i

Is P&W 2E Jig Borer hopelessly obsolete?
 

On 2015-01-16, Ignoramus26880 wrote:
I ended the three day auction early and I will scrap this machine on
Monday.

The precision T-slot table top has been spoken for and committed.

Acu-rite DRO, etc to follow

Handles available (will be asking a lot of $$$ on ebay but cheap to
Cydrome Leader)

i

i

On 2015-01-16, Ignoramus15619 wrote:
I have this Pratt and Whitney #2E jig borer. It weighs appx. 19,000
lbs. I wonder if my supposition is true and no one wants those these
days?

Picture

http://goo.gl/hko1pu

i

Is P&W 2E Jig Borer hopelessly obsolete?
 

On 2015-01-16, Ignoramus26880 wrote:
On 2015-01-16, Ignoramus26880 wrote:
I ended the three day auction early and I will scrap this machine on
Monday.

The precision T-slot table top has been spoken for and committed.

Here's a picture of the T slot table, laying on top of a frame that I
had laying around, it fit it rather nicely. I thought that someone
might like the picture.

i

Acu-rite DRO, etc to follow

Handles available (will be asking a lot of $$$ on ebay but cheap to
Cydrome Leader)

i

i

On 2015-01-16, Ignoramus15619 wrote:
I have this Pratt and Whitney #2E jig borer. It weighs appx. 19,000
lbs. I wonder if my supposition is true and no one wants those these
days?

Picture

http://goo.gl/hko1pu

i

Is P&W 2E Jig Borer hopelessly obsolete?
 

On 2015-01-16, Ignoramus26880 wrote:
On 2015-01-16, Ignoramus26880 wrote:
On 2015-01-16, Ignoramus26880 wrote:
I ended the three day auction early and I will scrap this machine on
Monday.

The precision T-slot table top has been spoken for and committed.

Here's a picture of the T slot table, laying on top of a frame that I
had laying around, it fit it rather nicely. I thought that someone
might like the picture.


Oops

http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/Jig-Borer-Table.jpg

i

Acu-rite DRO, etc to follow

Handles available (will be asking a lot of $$$ on ebay but cheap to
Cydrome Leader)

i

i

On 2015-01-16, Ignoramus15619 wrote:
I have this Pratt and Whitney #2E jig borer. It weighs appx. 19,000
lbs. I wonder if my supposition is true and no one wants those these
days?

Picture

http://goo.gl/hko1pu

i

Is P&W 2E Jig Borer hopelessly obsolete?
 

On 2015-01-16, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Thu, 15 Jan 2015 19:22:57 -0600, Ignoramus15619
wrote:

I have this Pratt and Whitney #2E jig borer. It weighs appx. 19,000
lbs. I wonder if my supposition is true and no one wants those these
days?

Picture

http://goo.gl/hko1pu

I think you know the answers here, Ig. Yes, it is obsolete. Yes, there
are some of them still in use. No, we don't know whether there's
someone out there who wants one or what they'd pay.

[ ... ]

I think you'd have a hard time selling it.

I would like to *have* one -- but I would not like to pay for one
plus the shiiping and rigging. I've actually got a set of P&W
calibrated rods to use with one, FWIW.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Is P&W 2E Jig Borer hopelessly obsolete?
 

"Ignoramus26880" wrote in message
...

The precision T-slot table top has been spoken for and committed.

Here's a picture of the T slot table, laying on top of a frame that I
had laying around, it fit it rather nicely. I thought that someone
might like the picture.


Oops

http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/Jig-Borer-Table.jpg

i

Thats gonna make a very nice fixturing table. Incase you get
another one in the future post it on the group, i would be
intrested in a t-sloted table.

Best Regards
Tom.

Is P&W 2E Jig Borer hopelessly obsolete?
 

On 2015-01-17, Howard Beal wrote:

"Ignoramus26880" wrote in message
...

The precision T-slot table top has been spoken for and committed.

Here's a picture of the T slot table, laying on top of a frame that I
had laying around, it fit it rather nicely. I thought that someone
might like the picture.


Oops

http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/Jig-Borer-Table.jpg

i

Thats gonna make a very nice fixturing table. Incase you get
another one in the future post it on the group, i would be
intrested in a t-sloted table.

I have two more t-slotted tables from CNC machines. Smaller one and a
larger one.

Is P&W 2E Jig Borer hopelessly obsolete?
 

"Ignoramus26880" wrote in message
...
On 2015-01-17, Howard Beal wrote:

"Ignoramus26880" wrote in message
...

The precision T-slot table top has been spoken for and committed.

Here's a picture of the T slot table, laying on top of a frame that I
had laying around, it fit it rather nicely. I thought that someone
might like the picture.


Oops

http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/Jig-Borer-Table.jpg

i

Thats gonna make a very nice fixturing table. Incase you get
another one in the future post it on the group, i would be
intrested in a t-sloted table.

I have two more t-slotted tables from CNC machines. Smaller one and a
larger one.


Got any pics? Aprox size? and of course price.

Best Regards
Tom.

Is P&W 2E Jig Borer hopelessly obsolete?
 

On Thu, 15 Jan 2015 19:22:57 -0600, Ignoramus15619
wrote:

I have this Pratt and Whitney #2E jig borer. It weighs appx. 19,000
lbs. I wonder if my supposition is true and no one wants those these
days?

Picture

http://goo.gl/hko1pu

i

A few people still use these. But the price has to be right. At 19k
lbs...they have to be close.

Shipping may be more than the price of the P&W

Gunner

"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child,
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosophy of sniveling brats."
PJ O'Rourke

Is P&W 2E Jig Borer hopelessly obsolete?
 

On Sat, 17 Jan 2015 10:01:17 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Thu, 15 Jan 2015 19:22:57 -0600, Ignoramus15619
wrote:

I have this Pratt and Whitney #2E jig borer. It weighs appx. 19,000
lbs. I wonder if my supposition is true and no one wants those these
days?

Picture

http://goo.gl/hko1pu

i

A few people still use these. But the price has to be right. At 19k
lbs...they have to be close.

Shipping may be more than the price of the P&W

Gunner

To say that "a few people still use these" is not the same thing as
saying "someone would buy one of these."

As we discussed, machines of this type that are still in use are
mostly dedicated to some long-running production job. It's hard to
imagine someone buying one of these things today.

--
Ed Huntress

Is P&W 2E Jig Borer hopelessly obsolete?
 

On 1/17/2015 12:06 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sat, 17 Jan 2015 10:01:17 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Thu, 15 Jan 2015 19:22:57 -0600, Ignoramus15619
wrote:

I have this Pratt and Whitney #2E jig borer. It weighs appx. 19,000
lbs. I wonder if my supposition is true and no one wants those these
days?

Picture

http://goo.gl/hko1pu

i

A few people still use these. But the price has to be right. At 19k
lbs...they have to be close.

Shipping may be more than the price of the P&W

Gunner

To say that "a few people still use these" is not the same thing as
saying "someone would buy one of these."

As we discussed, machines of this type that are still in use are
mostly dedicated to some long-running production job. It's hard to
imagine someone buying one of these things today.


A company I worked for bought a old manual Milwaukee horizontal mill for
spare parts for the two we had dedicated to a specific job. They paid
scrap value for it, it was 40+ years old but had had little use.

What they paid for the mill would have paid for reverse engineering just
two of the gears.

David

Is P&W 2E Jig Borer hopelessly obsolete?
 

On Saturday, January 17, 2015 at 1:06:20 PM UTC-5, Ed Huntress wrote:


To say that "a few people still use these" is not the same thing as
saying "someone would buy one of these."

As we discussed, machines of this type that are still in use are
mostly dedicated to some long-running production job. It's hard to
imagine someone buying one of these things today.

--
Ed Huntress

More it is hard to imagine someone paying very much for one of those things..

There are some Amish that do one off work that like to have machines that can do things that are only needed once in a while. They are not worried about having machines that are not used very much. The museum recently had a boiler for a steam engine retubed. It was done with tools that are not much in demand.

Dan

Is P&W 2E Jig Borer hopelessly obsolete?
 

On Sat, 17 Jan 2015 12:56:58 -0600, "David R. Birch"
wrote:

On 1/17/2015 12:06 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sat, 17 Jan 2015 10:01:17 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Thu, 15 Jan 2015 19:22:57 -0600, Ignoramus15619
wrote:

I have this Pratt and Whitney #2E jig borer. It weighs appx. 19,000
lbs. I wonder if my supposition is true and no one wants those these
days?

Picture

http://goo.gl/hko1pu

i

A few people still use these. But the price has to be right. At 19k
lbs...they have to be close.

Shipping may be more than the price of the P&W

Gunner

To say that "a few people still use these" is not the same thing as
saying "someone would buy one of these."

As we discussed, machines of this type that are still in use are
mostly dedicated to some long-running production job. It's hard to
imagine someone buying one of these things today.


A company I worked for bought a old manual Milwaukee horizontal mill for
spare parts for the two we had dedicated to a specific job. They paid
scrap value for it, it was 40+ years old but had had little use.

What they paid for the mill would have paid for reverse engineering just
two of the gears.

David

Yeah, there is some value in parting these things out, perhaps. A
common lathe or mill would be much easier to part out and sell than
some specialized and obsolete machine.

My guess that the value in this case, except for a few parts that are
easy to strip off, like Iggy did with the table (and he has an offer
for the handwheels), would involve more in disassembly time and
warehousing cost than it would be worth.

But then, I'm not in the old-machine parts business, so I'm not a good
judge.

--
Ed Huntress

Is P&W 2E Jig Borer hopelessly obsolete?
 

On Sat, 17 Jan 2015 10:59:45 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Saturday, January 17, 2015 at 1:06:20 PM UTC-5, Ed Huntress wrote:


To say that "a few people still use these" is not the same thing as
saying "someone would buy one of these."

As we discussed, machines of this type that are still in use are
mostly dedicated to some long-running production job. It's hard to
imagine someone buying one of these things today.

--
Ed Huntress

More it is hard to imagine someone paying very much for one of those things.

There are some Amish that do one off work that like to have machines that can do things that are only needed once in a while. They are not worried about having machines that are not used very much. The museum recently had a boiler for a steam engine retubed. It was done with tools that are not much in demand.

Dan

When I used to visit machine shops practically every week, a few
decades ago, I soon learned to tell the ones that were viable from
those that were just holding on and probably destined for the auction
block: If there were old machines gathering dust in a corner, or
machines that were used once every couple of months taking up
floorspace, the shop was a goner.

A lot of shop owners just can't bear to part with their beloved old
dinosaurs.

--
Ed Huntress

Is P&W 2E Jig Borer hopelessly obsolete?
 

On 2015-01-17, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Thu, 15 Jan 2015 19:22:57 -0600, Ignoramus15619
wrote:

I have this Pratt and Whitney #2E jig borer. It weighs appx. 19,000
lbs. I wonder if my supposition is true and no one wants those these
days?

Picture

http://goo.gl/hko1pu

i

A few people still use these. But the price has to be right. At 19k
lbs...they have to be close.

Shipping may be more than the price of the P&W

I think that, realistically, anyone who can afford to pay more than
scrap for this machine, rigging, and has a space for it, would not
need it. People buy little Moore jig borers for the fun factor because
they are small. They would not be able to have a 19,000 lbs machine.

Incidentally, despite the weight, it is not very big, maybe twice the
footprint of a moore. It is just very heavy.

i

Is P&W 2E Jig Borer hopelessly obsolete?
 

On 2015-01-17, Howard Beal wrote:

"Ignoramus26880" wrote in message
...
On 2015-01-17, Howard Beal wrote:

"Ignoramus26880" wrote in message
...

The precision T-slot table top has been spoken for and committed.

Here's a picture of the T slot table, laying on top of a frame that I
had laying around, it fit it rather nicely. I thought that someone
might like the picture.


Oops

http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/Jig-Borer-Table.jpg

i

Thats gonna make a very nice fixturing table. Incase you get
another one in the future post it on the group, i would be
intrested in a t-sloted table.

I have two more t-slotted tables from CNC machines. Smaller one and a
larger one.


Got any pics? Aprox size? and of course price.

Best Regards
Tom.



I will check soon

Is P&W 2E Jig Borer hopelessly obsolete?
 

On 1/17/2015 12:01 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Thu, 15 Jan 2015 19:22:57 -0600, Ignoramus15619
wrote:

I have this Pratt and Whitney #2E jig borer. It weighs appx. 19,000
lbs. I wonder if my supposition is true and no one wants those these
days?

Picture

http://goo.gl/hko1pu

i

A few people still use these. But the price has to be right. At 19k
lbs...they have to be close.

Shipping may be more than the price of the P&W

Gunner

"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child,
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosophy of sniveling brats."
PJ O'Rourke

If worse comes by - one could take off the head section and have a nice
heavy duty X-Y table! Might be useful to move a big project about while
doing something to it.

Martin

Is P&W 2E Jig Borer hopelessly obsolete?
 

On 1/17/2015 12:06 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sat, 17 Jan 2015 10:01:17 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Thu, 15 Jan 2015 19:22:57 -0600, Ignoramus15619
wrote:

I have this Pratt and Whitney #2E jig borer. It weighs appx. 19,000
lbs. I wonder if my supposition is true and no one wants those these
days?

Picture

http://goo.gl/hko1pu

i

A few people still use these. But the price has to be right. At 19k
lbs...they have to be close.

Shipping may be more than the price of the P&W

Gunner

To say that "a few people still use these" is not the same thing as
saying "someone would buy one of these."

As we discussed, machines of this type that are still in use are
mostly dedicated to some long-running production job. It's hard to
imagine someone buying one of these things today.

Maybe those exact people. Have only one on a long term production job
that you want to protect and keep? Backup unit that can bounce
production up to make the customer happy when his product gets a bounce.

Martin

Is P&W 2E Jig Borer hopelessly obsolete?
 

On Sat, 17 Jan 2015 20:51:02 -0600, Martin Eastburn
wrote:

On 1/17/2015 12:06 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sat, 17 Jan 2015 10:01:17 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Thu, 15 Jan 2015 19:22:57 -0600, Ignoramus15619
wrote:

I have this Pratt and Whitney #2E jig borer. It weighs appx. 19,000
lbs. I wonder if my supposition is true and no one wants those these
days?

Picture

http://goo.gl/hko1pu

i

A few people still use these. But the price has to be right. At 19k
lbs...they have to be close.

Shipping may be more than the price of the P&W

Gunner

To say that "a few people still use these" is not the same thing as
saying "someone would buy one of these."

As we discussed, machines of this type that are still in use are
mostly dedicated to some long-running production job. It's hard to
imagine someone buying one of these things today.

Maybe those exact people. Have only one on a long term production job
that you want to protect and keep? Backup unit that can bounce
production up to make the customer happy when his product gets a bounce.

Martin

You aren't likely to find jobs where adding an obsolete machine tool
that requires a dedicated oeprator will be competitive. The latest
autoloading CNC machines rarely require more than about 1/4 of an
operator.

I've seen one operator "managing" ten CNC lathes at once. Mostly, he
carries a clipboard or keeps an eye on the ERP dashboard in his
office.

That's where it is today, Martin.

--
Ed Huntress

Is P&W 2E Jig Borer hopelessly obsolete?
 

On Saturday, January 17, 2015 at 10:38:34 PM UTC-5, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sat, 17 Jan 2015 20:51:02 -0600, Martin Eastburn
wrote:

On 1/17/2015 12:06 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sat, 17 Jan 2015 10:01:17 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Thu, 15 Jan 2015 19:22:57 -0600, Ignoramus15619
wrote:

I have this Pratt and Whitney #2E jig borer. It weighs appx. 19,000
lbs. I wonder if my supposition is true and no one wants those these
days?

Picture

http://goo.gl/hko1pu

i

A few people still use these. But the price has to be right. At 19k
lbs...they have to be close.

Shipping may be more than the price of the P&W

Gunner

To say that "a few people still use these" is not the same thing as
saying "someone would buy one of these."

As we discussed, machines of this type that are still in use are
mostly dedicated to some long-running production job. It's hard to
imagine someone buying one of these things today.

Maybe those exact people. Have only one on a long term production job
that you want to protect and keep? Backup unit that can bounce
production up to make the customer happy when his product gets a bounce.

Martin

You aren't likely to find jobs where adding an obsolete machine tool
that requires a dedicated oeprator will be competitive. The latest
autoloading CNC machines rarely require more than about 1/4 of an
operator.

I've seen one operator "managing" ten CNC lathes at once. Mostly, he
carries a clipboard or keeps an eye on the ERP dashboard in his
office.

That's where it is today, Martin.

--
Ed Huntress

But there still are some shops around Lancaster, PA that do repair work using obsolete machinery. There are no operators, just the owner and perhaps his son. The shop is in a barn close to the house.

Dan

Is P&W 2E Jig Borer hopelessly obsolete?
 

On 2015-01-18, Martin Eastburn wrote:
If worse comes by - one could take off the head section and have a nice
heavy duty X-Y table! Might be useful to move a big project about while
doing something to it.

Again would be hard to sell for more than scrap. A lot of weight.

i

Is P&W 2E Jig Borer hopelessly obsolete?
 

On 2015-01-18, Ed Huntress wrote:
You aren't likely to find jobs where adding an obsolete machine tool
that requires a dedicated oeprator will be competitive. The latest
autoloading CNC machines rarely require more than about 1/4 of an
operator.

I've seen one operator "managing" ten CNC lathes at once. Mostly, he
carries a clipboard or keeps an eye on the ERP dashboard in his
office.

That's where it is today, Martin.


Exactly. You can have a $12/hour person loading and unloading several
CNC machines. All that is required from such a person is
attentiveness.

In the old times, the amount of production would require easily a
hundred of $30/hour machinists.

Production is up -- employment is down.

i

Is P&W 2E Jig Borer hopelessly obsolete?
 

On Sat, 17 Jan 2015 20:32:48 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Saturday, January 17, 2015 at 10:38:34 PM UTC-5, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sat, 17 Jan 2015 20:51:02 -0600, Martin Eastburn
wrote:

On 1/17/2015 12:06 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sat, 17 Jan 2015 10:01:17 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Thu, 15 Jan 2015 19:22:57 -0600, Ignoramus15619
wrote:

I have this Pratt and Whitney #2E jig borer. It weighs appx. 19,000
lbs. I wonder if my supposition is true and no one wants those these
days?

Picture

http://goo.gl/hko1pu

i

A few people still use these. But the price has to be right. At 19k
lbs...they have to be close.

Shipping may be more than the price of the P&W

Gunner

To say that "a few people still use these" is not the same thing as
saying "someone would buy one of these."

As we discussed, machines of this type that are still in use are
mostly dedicated to some long-running production job. It's hard to
imagine someone buying one of these things today.

Maybe those exact people. Have only one on a long term production job
that you want to protect and keep? Backup unit that can bounce
production up to make the customer happy when his product gets a bounce.

Martin

You aren't likely to find jobs where adding an obsolete machine tool
that requires a dedicated oeprator will be competitive. The latest
autoloading CNC machines rarely require more than about 1/4 of an
operator.

I've seen one operator "managing" ten CNC lathes at once. Mostly, he
carries a clipboard or keeps an eye on the ERP dashboard in his
office.

That's where it is today, Martin.

--
Ed Huntress

But there still are some shops around Lancaster, PA that do repair work using obsolete machinery. There are no operators, just the owner and perhaps his son. The shop is in a barn close to the house.

Dan

Sure, there used to be a lot of them. There aren't many anymore.

BTW, the last shaper I saw being used in commercial service was
outside of Lancaster. It was a mold shop, and they used it to square
mold bases. They had it for something like 40 years, and it put out
enough mold bases that they couldn't justify buying a mill for the
job.

That was 13 years ago.

--
Ed Huntress

Is P&W 2E Jig Borer hopelessly obsolete?
 

On Sun, 18 Jan 2015 08:26:57 -0600, Ignoramus15788
wrote:

On 2015-01-18, Ed Huntress wrote:
You aren't likely to find jobs where adding an obsolete machine tool
that requires a dedicated oeprator will be competitive. The latest
autoloading CNC machines rarely require more than about 1/4 of an
operator.

I've seen one operator "managing" ten CNC lathes at once. Mostly, he
carries a clipboard or keeps an eye on the ERP dashboard in his
office.

That's where it is today, Martin.


Exactly. You can have a $12/hour person loading and unloading several
CNC machines. All that is required from such a person is
attentiveness.

And they're working on ways to replace that person. g


In the old times, the amount of production would require easily a
hundred of $30/hour machinists.

Production is up -- employment is down.

i

Yup. And it looks like this:

http://tinyurl.com/p8ou4nk

--
Ed Huntress

Is P&W 2E Jig Borer hopelessly obsolete?
 

On 2015-01-18, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sun, 18 Jan 2015 08:26:57 -0600, Ignoramus15788
wrote:

On 2015-01-18, Ed Huntress wrote:
You aren't likely to find jobs where adding an obsolete machine tool
that requires a dedicated oeprator will be competitive. The latest
autoloading CNC machines rarely require more than about 1/4 of an
operator.

I've seen one operator "managing" ten CNC lathes at once. Mostly, he
carries a clipboard or keeps an eye on the ERP dashboard in his
office.

That's where it is today, Martin.


Exactly. You can have a $12/hour person loading and unloading several
CNC machines. All that is required from such a person is
attentiveness.

And they're working on ways to replace that person. g

It would appear to me, that it is not that expensive to have an
attentive person minding several machines, and could prevent a lot of
trouble from happening.


In the old times, the amount of production would require easily a
hundred of $30/hour machinists.

Production is up -- employment is down.

i

Yup. And it looks like this:

http://tinyurl.com/p8ou4nk


The future is here!

Is P&W 2E Jig Borer hopelessly obsolete?
 

On 2015-01-18, Ignoramus15788 wrote:
Yup. And it looks like this:

http://tinyurl.com/p8ou4nk


The future is here!

Next, complete automation of "fast food".

i

Is P&W 2E Jig Borer hopelessly obsolete?
 

On Sun, 18 Jan 2015 10:28:08 -0600, Ignoramus15788
wrote:

On 2015-01-18, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sun, 18 Jan 2015 08:26:57 -0600, Ignoramus15788
wrote:

On 2015-01-18, Ed Huntress wrote:
You aren't likely to find jobs where adding an obsolete machine tool
that requires a dedicated oeprator will be competitive. The latest
autoloading CNC machines rarely require more than about 1/4 of an
operator.

I've seen one operator "managing" ten CNC lathes at once. Mostly, he
carries a clipboard or keeps an eye on the ERP dashboard in his
office.

That's where it is today, Martin.


Exactly. You can have a $12/hour person loading and unloading several
CNC machines. All that is required from such a person is
attentiveness.

And they're working on ways to replace that person. g

It would appear to me, that it is not that expensive to have an
attentive person minding several machines, and could prevent a lot of
trouble from happening.

Most production operates like that, but the "lights-out" factory is
just about here. Actually, Fanuc built such a factory, for building
their wire EDMs, back in the '80s -- just to show that it could be
done. But it wasn't very practical then.

Now, one guy sitting in an office with production-management software
dashboards (ERP) knows better exactly what's going on than an operaor
of the floor.

The last holdout is material transport and staging of materials and
in-process workpieces. That can involve a lot of large-scale robotics,
so a guy driving a forklift, handling palletized stock and workpieces,
is often more cost-effective.

I'm going to go see the latest automation from one of the big 3
automakers soon. I'll let you know where it stands.



In the old times, the amount of production would require easily a
hundred of $30/hour machinists.

Production is up -- employment is down.

i

Yup. And it looks like this:

http://tinyurl.com/p8ou4nk


The future is here!

Is P&W 2E Jig Borer hopelessly obsolete?
 

On Sat, 17 Jan 2015 20:51:02 -0600, Martin Eastburn
wrote:

On 1/17/2015 12:06 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sat, 17 Jan 2015 10:01:17 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Thu, 15 Jan 2015 19:22:57 -0600, Ignoramus15619
wrote:

I have this Pratt and Whitney #2E jig borer. It weighs appx. 19,000
lbs. I wonder if my supposition is true and no one wants those these
days?

Picture

http://goo.gl/hko1pu

i

A few people still use these. But the price has to be right. At 19k
lbs...they have to be close.

Shipping may be more than the price of the P&W

Gunner

To say that "a few people still use these" is not the same thing as
saying "someone would buy one of these."

As we discussed, machines of this type that are still in use are
mostly dedicated to some long-running production job. It's hard to
imagine someone buying one of these things today.

Maybe those exact people. Have only one on a long term production job
that you want to protect and keep? Backup unit that can bounce
production up to make the customer happy when his product gets a bounce.

Martin

Guy I know keeps making L:ARGE titanium rings for NASA..used as
mounts for some rocket engine...on his Richardson 10' VTL..circia
about 1954ish


"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child,
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosophy of sniveling brats."
PJ O'Rourke

Is P&W 2E Jig Borer hopelessly obsolete?
 

On Sun, 18 Jan 2015 09:32:56 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sat, 17 Jan 2015 20:51:02 -0600, Martin Eastburn
wrote:

On 1/17/2015 12:06 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sat, 17 Jan 2015 10:01:17 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Thu, 15 Jan 2015 19:22:57 -0600, Ignoramus15619
wrote:

I have this Pratt and Whitney #2E jig borer. It weighs appx. 19,000
lbs. I wonder if my supposition is true and no one wants those these
days?

Picture

http://goo.gl/hko1pu

i

A few people still use these. But the price has to be right. At 19k
lbs...they have to be close.

Shipping may be more than the price of the P&W

Gunner

To say that "a few people still use these" is not the same thing as
saying "someone would buy one of these."

As we discussed, machines of this type that are still in use are
mostly dedicated to some long-running production job. It's hard to
imagine someone buying one of these things today.

Maybe those exact people. Have only one on a long term production job
that you want to protect and keep? Backup unit that can bounce
production up to make the customer happy when his product gets a bounce.

Martin

Guy I know keeps making L:ARGE titanium rings for NASA..used as
mounts for some rocket engine...on his Richardson 10' VTL..circia
about 1954ish

VTLs and VBMs (two flavors of the same things), as I mentioned, are
one of the few old machine types that are worth restoring -- if you're
specifically turning very large ring-type parts.

I have a nice photo of an ancient one that was converted to DROs, in a
brochure I wrote for Mitutotyo many years ago. I should scan it and
put it online somewhere. The old clunker with modern readouts is a bit
of a jolt.

--
Ed Huntress

Is P&W 2E Jig Borer hopelessly obsolete?
 

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

BTW, the last shaper I saw being used in commercial service was
outside of Lancaster. It was a mold shop, and they used it to square
mold bases. They had it for something like 40 years, and it put out
enough mold bases that they couldn't justify buying a mill for the
job.

That was 13 years ago.

--
Ed Huntress

Shapers make everything except money.

http://lasvegas.craigslist.org/tls/4850987499.html

A nice machine for a hobbyist, if you can find one willing
to haul it off for free.

Best Regards
Tom.

Is P&W 2E Jig Borer hopelessly obsolete?
 

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 18 Jan 2015 09:32:56 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sat, 17 Jan 2015 20:51:02 -0600, Martin Eastburn
wrote:

On 1/17/2015 12:06 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sat, 17 Jan 2015 10:01:17 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Thu, 15 Jan 2015 19:22:57 -0600, Ignoramus15619
wrote:

I have this Pratt and Whitney #2E jig borer. It weighs appx. 19,000
lbs. I wonder if my supposition is true and no one wants those these
days?

Picture

http://goo.gl/hko1pu

i

A few people still use these. But the price has to be right. At 19k
lbs...they have to be close.

Shipping may be more than the price of the P&W

Gunner

To say that "a few people still use these" is not the same thing as
saying "someone would buy one of these."

As we discussed, machines of this type that are still in use are
mostly dedicated to some long-running production job. It's hard to
imagine someone buying one of these things today.

Maybe those exact people. Have only one on a long term production job
that you want to protect and keep? Backup unit that can bounce
production up to make the customer happy when his product gets a bounce.

Martin

Guy I know keeps making L:ARGE titanium rings for NASA..used as
mounts for some rocket engine...on his Richardson 10' VTL..circia
about 1954ish

VTLs and VBMs (two flavors of the same things), as I mentioned, are
one of the few old machine types that are worth restoring -- if you're
specifically turning very large ring-type parts.

I have a nice photo of an ancient one that was converted to DROs, in a
brochure I wrote for Mitutotyo many years ago. I should scan it and
put it online somewhere. The old clunker with modern readouts is a bit
of a jolt.

--
Ed Huntress

The machine shop at the base of hoover dam has some of those large
machines still in use for maintence. I remember the VTL about 20 foot
table on that machine. I bet it was custom built just for the dam project.
If you ever take any dam tour ask to see the machine shop if they have
one, all the machines at hoover dam are well kept and still in use.

Best Regards
Tom.

Is P&W 2E Jig Borer hopelessly obsolete?
 

On Sun, 18 Jan 2015 12:14:28 -0800, "Howard Beal"
wrote:


"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 18 Jan 2015 09:32:56 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sat, 17 Jan 2015 20:51:02 -0600, Martin Eastburn
wrote:

On 1/17/2015 12:06 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sat, 17 Jan 2015 10:01:17 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Thu, 15 Jan 2015 19:22:57 -0600, Ignoramus15619
wrote:

I have this Pratt and Whitney #2E jig borer. It weighs appx. 19,000
lbs. I wonder if my supposition is true and no one wants those these
days?

Picture

http://goo.gl/hko1pu

i

A few people still use these. But the price has to be right. At 19k
lbs...they have to be close.

Shipping may be more than the price of the P&W

Gunner

To say that "a few people still use these" is not the same thing as
saying "someone would buy one of these."

As we discussed, machines of this type that are still in use are
mostly dedicated to some long-running production job. It's hard to
imagine someone buying one of these things today.

Maybe those exact people. Have only one on a long term production job
that you want to protect and keep? Backup unit that can bounce
production up to make the customer happy when his product gets a bounce.

Martin

Guy I know keeps making L:ARGE titanium rings for NASA..used as
mounts for some rocket engine...on his Richardson 10' VTL..circia
about 1954ish

VTLs and VBMs (two flavors of the same things), as I mentioned, are
one of the few old machine types that are worth restoring -- if you're
specifically turning very large ring-type parts.

I have a nice photo of an ancient one that was converted to DROs, in a
brochure I wrote for Mitutotyo many years ago. I should scan it and
put it online somewhere. The old clunker with modern readouts is a bit
of a jolt.

--
Ed Huntress

The machine shop at the base of hoover dam has some of those large
machines still in use for maintence. I remember the VTL about 20 foot
table on that machine. I bet it was custom built just for the dam project.
If you ever take any dam tour ask to see the machine shop if they have
one, all the machines at hoover dam are well kept and still in use.

Best Regards
Tom.

We've heard about that shop -- maybe from you? It sounds like
something worth seeing if we're in the area.

--
Ed Huntress

Is P&W 2E Jig Borer hopelessly obsolete?
 

On 2015-01-18, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sun, 18 Jan 2015 09:32:56 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sat, 17 Jan 2015 20:51:02 -0600, Martin Eastburn
wrote:

On 1/17/2015 12:06 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sat, 17 Jan 2015 10:01:17 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Thu, 15 Jan 2015 19:22:57 -0600, Ignoramus15619
wrote:

I have this Pratt and Whitney #2E jig borer. It weighs appx. 19,000
lbs. I wonder if my supposition is true and no one wants those these
days?

Picture

http://goo.gl/hko1pu

i

A few people still use these. But the price has to be right. At 19k
lbs...they have to be close.

Shipping may be more than the price of the P&W

Gunner

To say that "a few people still use these" is not the same thing as
saying "someone would buy one of these."

As we discussed, machines of this type that are still in use are
mostly dedicated to some long-running production job. It's hard to
imagine someone buying one of these things today.

Maybe those exact people. Have only one on a long term production job
that you want to protect and keep? Backup unit that can bounce
production up to make the customer happy when his product gets a bounce.

Martin

Guy I know keeps making L:ARGE titanium rings for NASA..used as
mounts for some rocket engine...on his Richardson 10' VTL..circia
about 1954ish

VTLs and VBMs (two flavors of the same things), as I mentioned, are
one of the few old machine types that are worth restoring -- if you're
specifically turning very large ring-type parts.

I could not sell a great looking Bullard VTL with DROs two glass
scales, just last Christmas season. It will be scrapped next week.

I have a nice photo of an ancient one that was converted to DROs, in
a brochure I wrote for Mitutotyo many years ago. I should scan it
and put it online somewhere. The old clunker with modern readouts is
a bit of a jolt.

Is P&W 2E Jig Borer hopelessly obsolete?
 

On 1/18/2015 3:01 PM, Howard Beal wrote:
Shapers make everything except money.

http://lasvegas.craigslist.org/tls/4850987499.html
....

$1250 for 20", 5000 lb monster. Good luck with that. Hey, Iggy: what
would a scrapper pay?