Best hold in thin alumium?
 

I have a problem holding thin aluminum, about .080", together for a period of 3 - 4
months in an outdoor environment. I have tried drilling and taping with # 8, 10, 12,
fine & course thread machine bolts, which last a few cycles then strip out. The force
needed is about 3 - 5 lb compression. I only have limited access to one side of the
joint. I'm now thinking of a finer thread screw such as drywall screws which are
designed for metal studs. Any thoughts or suggestions??

To reply to this message please remove the AT
after the kgs1 in the reply to address.
To a conservatist's it truly is a free country,
YOU may do whatever they wish. KG

Best hold in thin alumium?
 

On 10/22/2013 10:22 AM, KG wrote:
I have a problem holding thin aluminum, about .080", together for a period of 3 - 4
months in an outdoor environment. I have tried drilling and taping with # 8, 10, 12,
fine & course thread machine bolts, which last a few cycles then strip out. The force
needed is about 3 - 5 lb compression. I only have limited access to one side of the
joint. I'm now thinking of a finer thread screw such as drywall screws which are
designed for metal studs. Any thoughts or suggestions??


Wonder if pop rivets would work? Aluminum
rivets, you can shear the head off with
hammer and chisel, later. Push the rest of
the rivet through.

Or, use threaded inserts? Jack nuts?

..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

Best hold in thin alumium?
 

Stormin Mormon fired this volley in
:

you can shear the head off with
hammer and chisel, later

NO....! You just gently counter-drill in the hole, and it falls right off!

Lloyd

Best hold in thin alumium?
 

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com fired this volley
in . 3.70:

Besides,
There are some dandy blind nuts which fit in an oversized hole, and expand
on the back-side of the metal the first time you torque the screw down.

Lloyd

Best hold in thin alumium?
 

On Tue, 22 Oct 2013 10:22:16 -0400, KG wrote:

I have a problem holding thin aluminum, about .080", together for a period of 3 - 4
months in an outdoor environment. I have tried drilling and taping with # 8, 10, 12,
fine & course thread machine bolts, which last a few cycles then strip out. The force
needed is about 3 - 5 lb compression. I only have limited access to one side of the
joint. I'm now thinking of a finer thread screw such as drywall screws which are
designed for metal studs. Any thoughts or suggestions??

To reply to this message please remove the AT
after the kgs1 in the reply to address.
To a conservatist's it truly is a free country,
YOU may do whatever they wish. KG
What's wrong with a big honing rivet??? The limited access allow you
to get a backing washer on the rivet? If so you can use Monel or
stainless rivets with washers on both sides to spread the load. A
sheet metal screw of ANY description is just trouble waiting to
happen.

Best hold in thin alumium?
 

Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 10/22/2013 10:22 AM, KG wrote:
I have a problem holding thin aluminum, about .080", together for a
period of 3 - 4
months in an outdoor environment. I have tried drilling and taping
with # 8, 10, 12,
fine & course thread machine bolts, which last a few cycles then strip
out. The force
needed is about 3 - 5 lb compression. I only have limited access to
one side of the
joint. I'm now thinking of a finer thread screw such as drywall
screws which are
designed for metal studs. Any thoughts or suggestions??


Wonder if pop rivets would work? Aluminum
rivets, you can shear the head off with
hammer and chisel, later. Push the rest of
the rivet through.

I'd second the idea of pop rivets. If you
need something stronger than hardware store
rivets, you could use Cherry aircraft rivets.

Best hold in thin alumium?
 

"KG" wrote in message
...
I have a problem holding thin aluminum, about .080", together for a period
of 3 - 4
months in an outdoor environment. I have tried drilling and taping with #
8, 10, 12,
fine & course thread machine bolts, which last a few cycles then strip
out. The force
needed is about 3 - 5 lb compression. I only have limited access to one
side of the
joint. I'm now thinking of a finer thread screw such as drywall screws
which are
designed for metal studs. Any thoughts or suggestions??


Rivets. Need to remove? Rivnut one, and screw the other.




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Best hold in thin alumium?
 

On 10/22/2013 10:50 AM, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
Stormin Mormon fired this volley in
:

you can shear the head off with
hammer and chisel, later

NO....! You just gently counter-drill in the hole, and it falls right off!

Lloyd

YES ...! That sounds like what a machinist would do.


..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

Best hold in thin alumium?
 

On 10/22/2013 10:52 AM, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
There are some dandy blind nuts which fit in an oversized hole, and expand
on the back-side of the metal the first time you torque the screw down.

Lloyd



Or, use threaded inserts? Jack nuts?
(what I said a few minutes ago....)


..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

Best hold in thin alumium?
 

On Tue, 22 Oct 2013 10:22:16 -0400
KG wrote:

I have a problem holding thin aluminum, about .080", together for a period of 3 - 4
months in an outdoor environment. I have tried drilling and taping with # 8, 10, 12,
fine & course thread machine bolts, which last a few cycles then strip out. The force
needed is about 3 - 5 lb compression. I only have limited access to one side of the
joint. I'm now thinking of a finer thread screw such as drywall screws which are
designed for metal studs. Any thoughts or suggestions??

To reply to this message please remove the AT
after the kgs1 in the reply to address.
To a conservatist's it truly is a free country,
YOU may do whatever they wish. KG

Try using a punched hole, like from an awl. The dimpled out material on
the back side gives you a lot more material for your screw to bite into.

There used to be special punch sets made for this. They had a sharp
point with different sized shafts leading to a shoulder so you didn't
have to guess at how far to run your punch in.

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

Best hold in thin alumium?
 

Stormin Mormon fired this volley in
:

Or, use threaded inserts? Jack nuts?

'Expanding blind nuts' ARE threaded inserts, but they're designed to fit
snugly in a hole (sometimes knurled to press in tightly), then when the
screw is torqued, they expand on the back-side of the work to prevent them
from being pulled out front-wise.

Most of them are designed to work flush to to bolting surface, so they
don't interfere with a close fit. They're not 'free', but they're not
expensive, nor difficult to install.

Lloyd

Best hold in thin alumium?
 

On Tue, 22 Oct 2013 11:17:48 -0700, Jim Stewart
wrote:

Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 10/22/2013 10:22 AM, KG wrote:
I have a problem holding thin aluminum, about .080", together for a
period of 3 - 4
months in an outdoor environment. I have tried drilling and taping
with # 8, 10, 12,
fine & course thread machine bolts, which last a few cycles then strip
out. The force
needed is about 3 - 5 lb compression. I only have limited access to
one side of the
joint. I'm now thinking of a finer thread screw such as drywall
screws which are
designed for metal studs. Any thoughts or suggestions??


Wonder if pop rivets would work? Aluminum
rivets, you can shear the head off with
hammer and chisel, later. Push the rest of
the rivet through.

I'd second the idea of pop rivets. If you
need something stronger than hardware store
rivets, you could use Cherry aircraft rivets.
Or just go up one size with the pops.

Best hold in thin alumium?
 

On 2013-10-22, KG wrote:
I have a problem holding thin aluminum, about .080", together for a period of 3 - 4
months in an outdoor environment. I have tried drilling and taping with # 8, 10, 12,
fine & course thread machine bolts, which last a few cycles then strip out. The force
needed is about 3 - 5 lb compression. I only have limited access to one side of the
joint. I'm now thinking of a finer thread screw such as drywall screws which are
designed for metal studs. Any thoughts or suggestions??

Have you tried roll (thread-forming) taps? They have the
advantage of forming threads by displacing metal, so the threads are
somewhat more hardened than you get from thread-cutting taps. Beware
that the tap drill for roll taps is a different size from thread-cutting
taps, and a much more critical size as well.

If there is space behind the plate, another option might be
Rivnuts. They fit into a drilled (and countersunk if need be) hole, are
drawn somewhat like pop rivets, and provide a much longer thread.

Also -- since this is in the outdoors (and I presume an area
where rain is common, rather than a desert area), you will need to
consider the effects of different metals in contact in a wet
environment. So perhaps you should look into self-tapping aluminum
screws instead of steel. (Not sure what the results would be with brass
screws in aluminum instead, but it might be worth checking out.)

Good Luck,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Best hold in thin alumium?
 

Best hold in thin alumium?
 

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message
...
"KG" wrote in message
...
I have a problem holding thin aluminum, about .080", together for a
period of 3 - 4
months in an outdoor environment. I have tried drilling and taping with
# 8, 10, 12,
fine & course thread machine bolts, which last a few cycles then strip
out. The force
needed is about 3 - 5 lb compression. I only have limited access to one
side of the
joint. I'm now thinking of a finer thread screw such as drywall screws
which are
designed for metal studs. Any thoughts or suggestions??


Rivets. Need to remove? Rivnut one, and screw the other.

An in between solution I have heard of (in this group actually) is to punch
the hole in the bottom sheet. This creates an elongated cone and allows for
more threads to tap.

_____________________
______......____________
\ /

I think if you found the ideal punch it would have a straight shaft of the
appropriate diameter with a hardened long conical point, and maybe a stop to
avoid over driving.


---
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http://www.avast.com

Best hold in thin alumium?
 

On Tue, 22 Oct 2013 17:00:19 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

fired this volley in
:

I'd second the idea of pop rivets. If you
need something stronger than hardware store
rivets, you could use Cherry aircraft rivets.
Or just go up one size with the pops.

Hasn't anyone noticed that he wishes to disassemble this thing from time to
time? C'mon! Pop Rivets need to be drilled out. How about flush
expanding nuts?

Lloyd
He didn't say it had to come apart - only that it needed to hold for
a number of months. If it needs to come apart he should install Dzuz
(1/4 turn) fasteners.

Best hold in thin alumium?
 

Best hold in thin alumium?
 

On Tue, 22 Oct 2013 10:22:16 -0400, KG wrote:

I have a problem holding thin aluminum, about .080", together for a period of 3 - 4
months in an outdoor environment. I have tried drilling and taping with # 8, 10, 12,
fine & course thread machine bolts, which last a few cycles then strip out. The force
needed is about 3 - 5 lb compression. I only have limited access to one side of the
joint. I'm now thinking of a finer thread screw such as drywall screws which are
designed for metal studs. Any thoughts or suggestions??

To reply to this message please remove the AT
after the kgs1 in the reply to address.
To a conservatist's it truly is a free country,
YOU may do whatever they wish. KG

I don't know how much room there is on the "back sides" but you might
try Rivnuts which are a sort of threaded pop rivet. You can install
the rivnut from one side of your sheetmetal and then use a bolt to
hold things together.
--
Cheers,

John B.

Best hold in thin alumium?
 

On 22 Oct 2013 21:58:52 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2013-10-22, KG wrote:
I have a problem holding thin aluminum, about .080", together for a period of 3 - 4
months in an outdoor environment. I have tried drilling and taping with # 8, 10, 12,
fine & course thread machine bolts, which last a few cycles then strip out. The force
needed is about 3 - 5 lb compression. I only have limited access to one side of the
joint. I'm now thinking of a finer thread screw such as drywall screws which are
designed for metal studs. Any thoughts or suggestions??

Lloyd, where is the part which says he wants to take them apart?


Have you tried roll (thread-forming) taps? They have the
advantage of forming threads by displacing metal, so the threads are
somewhat more hardened than you get from thread-cutting taps. Beware
that the tap drill for roll taps is a different size from thread-cutting
taps, and a much more critical size as well.

If there is space behind the plate, another option might be
Rivnuts. They fit into a drilled (and countersunk if need be) hole, are
drawn somewhat like pop rivets, and provide a much longer thread.

I bought one of the HF gun kits and used it on my '91 F-150 doors to
hold the trailer mirrors on. Worked like champs for years, and AFAIK,
are still working. For $17, you cannot go wrong. Maybe he can use one
of them.

http://www.harborfreight.com/45-piec...-kit-1210.html


Also -- since this is in the outdoors (and I presume an area
where rain is common, rather than a desert area), you will need to
consider the effects of different metals in contact in a wet
environment. So perhaps you should look into self-tapping aluminum
screws instead of steel. (Not sure what the results would be with brass
screws in aluminum instead, but it might be worth checking out.)

Anti-seize is cheap.

--
Worry is a misuse of imagination.
-- Dan Zadra

Best hold in thin alumium?
 

On Tue, 22 Oct 2013 19:25:57 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

fired this volley in
:

He didn't say it had to come apart - only that it needed to hold for
a number of months. If it needs to come apart he should install Dzuz
(1/4 turn) fasteners.


Yes, he did. And they require a "receiver" as well.

Lloyd
All part of the fastener - of course.

Best hold in thin alumium?
 

On Tue, 22 Oct 2013 19:25:57 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

fired this volley in
:

He didn't say it had to come apart - only that it needed to hold for
a number of months. If it needs to come apart he should install Dzuz
(1/4 turn) fasteners.


Yes, he did. And they require a "receiver" as well.

Lloyd
Where in "I have a problem holding thin aluminum, about .080",
together for a period of 3 - 4 months in an outdoor environment." did
it say it needed to come apart? or how often? He just said it needed
to stay together for 3 to 4 months - which his method was not doing.
If he gave us an idea of the application we could give him an
intelligent solution. He says he only needs 4-5 lbs force but does
not tell us what shear strength he needs. He did not say how often it
needs to come apart and go together either. Mabee a latch, like a Dzuz
is required. Mabee a riveted on piano hinge with a removeable wire
would be the proper solution. Mabee it should have a thick bar
fastened to the back of the back sheet, threaded for bolts or machine
screws. If the holes are near an edge, mabee he should use
tinnermans. Mabee he should rivet on nut-plates.

If it only needs to stay together for up to 4 months, once, nothing
wrong with pop-rivets - either use backing washers, or just use enough
that they hold - do like Zenith Aircraft does - use 50% more than you
might possibly need for the calculated forces. (he uses avdels - which
are really just "super pop-rivets" and not NEARLY as expensive as
Cherries)

Different horses for different courses - and we have NO idea what his
application or requirements really are.

(and he DID say he "taped" the screws into the metal - what kind of
tape did he use - mabee better tape would do the job - I ASUME he
meant he TAPPED them. - but that's not what he said - - - - )

Best hold in thin alumium?
 

Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
fired this volley in
:

I'd second the idea of pop rivets. If you
need something stronger than hardware store
rivets, you could use Cherry aircraft rivets.
Or just go up one size with the pops.

Hasn't anyone noticed that he wishes to disassemble this thing from time to
time? C'mon! Pop Rivets need to be drilled out. How about flush
expanding nuts?

Lloyd



Rivnuts , nutserts or a similar product.
John

Best hold in thin alumium?
 

On 2013-10-23, Larry Jaques wrote:
On 22 Oct 2013 21:58:52 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2013-10-22, KG wrote:
I have a problem holding thin aluminum, about .080", together for a period of 3 - 4
months in an outdoor environment. I have tried drilling and taping with # 8, 10, 12,
fine & course thread machine bolts, which last a few cycles then strip out. The force
needed is about 3 - 5 lb compression. I only have limited access to one side of the
joint. I'm now thinking of a finer thread screw such as drywall screws which are
designed for metal studs. Any thoughts or suggestions??

Lloyd, where is the part which says he wants to take them apart?

Where is Lloyd in this thread? (at least the part quoted here).
But I read the "which last a few cycles and then strip out" as implying
that it if fairly often removed and reassembled. (Removal/tightening
cycles of the screws.) Granted -- he may not have meant that, but then
again he may have.

Have you tried roll (thread-forming) taps? They have the
advantage of forming threads by displacing metal, so the threads are
somewhat more hardened than you get from thread-cutting taps. Beware
that the tap drill for roll taps is a different size from thread-cutting
taps, and a much more critical size as well.

If there is space behind the plate, another option might be
Rivnuts. They fit into a drilled (and countersunk if need be) hole, are
drawn somewhat like pop rivets, and provide a much longer thread.

I bought one of the HF gun kits and used it on my '91 F-150 doors to
hold the trailer mirrors on. Worked like champs for years, and AFAIK,
are still working. For $17, you cannot go wrong. Maybe he can use one
of them.

http://www.harborfreight.com/45-piec...-kit-1210.html

I *think* that those are Rivnuts stood on their heads and
photographed from nearly straight above, so it is hard to see for sure,
particularly with the rather low resolution in the photo.

O.K. A bit better when I double-click on the original image.
It might be Nutserts instead of Rivnuts. I would prefer the Rivnuts if
there is enough back clearance for them. And, I would prefer one of the
proper tools which B.F. Goodrich made for the purpose.

O.K. .... Here is one on eBay -- but it does not show what the
size is:
#331046323231

It is likely 8-32 or 10-32 from the appearance. The price looks
nice -- especially with the manual.

As for the HF set -- I don't *ever* consider only ten of each
size to be useful -- even assuming that you get it right the first time
so you don't have to drill one or two out. Personally, I consider a lot
of 100 of a given size a better starting point. :-)

The tool shown in the auction above has to be adjusted for both the
size of the Rivnut, and the thickness of the sheet metal into which it
is being installed. Get it too loose, and the Rivnut will turn
(especially if you have the ones without the key), and get it too tight
and you strip out the threads. I don't see provisions on the HF tool to
make such adjustments, though they may exist.

Here is an auction with better views of a Rivnut (one of many
auctions) -- selling in quantities of 25 Rivnuts per package:

#370306923448

Also -- since this is in the outdoors (and I presume an area
where rain is common, rather than a desert area), you will need to
consider the effects of different metals in contact in a wet
environment. So perhaps you should look into self-tapping aluminum
screws instead of steel. (Not sure what the results would be with brass
screws in aluminum instead, but it might be worth checking out.)

Anti-seize is cheap.

If you can get enough of it to prevent corrosion forming, and
keep it there, yes.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Best hold in thin alumium?
 

On 10/22/2013 10:33 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On 22 Oct 2013 21:58:52 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2013-10-22, KG wrote:
I have a problem holding thin aluminum, about .080", together for a period of 3 - 4
months in an outdoor environment. I have tried drilling and taping with # 8, 10, 12,
fine & course thread machine bolts, which last a few cycles then strip out. The force
needed is about 3 - 5 lb compression. I only have limited access to one side of the
joint. I'm now thinking of a finer thread screw such as drywall screws which are
designed for metal studs. Any thoughts or suggestions??

Lloyd, where is the part which says he wants to take them apart?


Have you tried roll (thread-forming) taps? They have the
advantage of forming threads by displacing metal, so the threads are
somewhat more hardened than you get from thread-cutting taps. Beware
that the tap drill for roll taps is a different size from thread-cutting
taps, and a much more critical size as well.

If there is space behind the plate, another option might be
Rivnuts. They fit into a drilled (and countersunk if need be) hole, are
drawn somewhat like pop rivets, and provide a much longer thread.

I bought one of the HF gun kits and used it on my '91 F-150 doors to
hold the trailer mirrors on. Worked like champs for years, and AFAIK,
are still working. For $17, you cannot go wrong. Maybe he can use one
of them.

http://www.harborfreight.com/45-piec...-kit-1210.html


Also -- since this is in the outdoors (and I presume an area
where rain is common, rather than a desert area), you will need to
consider the effects of different metals in contact in a wet
environment. So perhaps you should look into self-tapping aluminum
screws instead of steel. (Not sure what the results would be with brass
screws in aluminum instead, but it might be worth checking out.)

Anti-seize is cheap.

--
Worry is a misuse of imagination.
-- Dan Zadra



I'm surprised you didn't recommend Boogers! They work for ALL those
pesky fastening jobs!

Best hold in thin alumium?
 

On 10/22/2013 10:22 AM, KG wrote:
I have a problem holding thin aluminum, about .080", together for a period of 3 - 4
months in an outdoor environment. I have tried drilling and taping with # 8, 10, 12,
fine & course thread machine bolts, which last a few cycles then strip out. The force
needed is about 3 - 5 lb compression. I only have limited access to one side of the
joint. I'm now thinking of a finer thread screw such as drywall screws which are
designed for metal studs. Any thoughts or suggestions??

To reply to this message please remove the AT
after the kgs1 in the reply to address.
To a conservatist's it truly is a free country,
YOU may do whatever they wish. KG



Toggle bolts

Best hold in thin alumium?
 

On Tuesday, October 22, 2013 11:28:27 PM UTC-7, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 10/22/2013 10:33 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:



I'm surprised you didn't recommend Boogers! They work for ALL those
pesky fastening jobs!

Following along that line of thought... how about Gorilla Snot Adhesive, Epoxy, or even Double Back tape?

--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob

Best hold in thin alumium?
 

On 10/23/2013 2:28 AM, Tom Gardner wrote:
Also -- since this is in the outdoors (and I presume an area
where rain is common, rather than a desert area), you will need to
consider the effects of different metals in contact in a wet
environment. So perhaps you should look into self-tapping aluminum
screws instead of steel. (Not sure what the results would be with brass
screws in aluminum instead, but it might be worth checking out.)

Anti-seize is cheap.


I'm surprised you didn't recommend Boogers! They work for ALL those
pesky fastening jobs!

You know, if we have Godwin's law, and Young's Law. There
ought to be a law about boogers. Perhaps we can begin the
early drafts of writing such? TG's Law, maybe?


--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

Best hold in thin alumium?
 

Best hold in thin alumium?
 

On 23 Oct 2013 04:42:35 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2013-10-23, Larry Jaques wrote:
On 22 Oct 2013 21:58:52 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2013-10-22, KG wrote:
I have a problem holding thin aluminum, about .080", together for a period of 3 - 4
months in an outdoor environment. I have tried drilling and taping with # 8, 10, 12,
fine & course thread machine bolts, which last a few cycles then strip out. The force
needed is about 3 - 5 lb compression. I only have limited access to one side of the
joint. I'm now thinking of a finer thread screw such as drywall screws which are
designed for metal studs. Any thoughts or suggestions??

Lloyd, where is the part which says he wants to take them apart?

I saved a post and doubled up in this one, OK? ;)


Where is Lloyd in this thread? (at least the part quoted here).
But I read the "which last a few cycles and then strip out" as implying
that it if fairly often removed and reassembled. (Removal/tightening
cycles of the screws.) Granted -- he may not have meant that, but then
again he may have.

Have you tried roll (thread-forming) taps? They have the
advantage of forming threads by displacing metal, so the threads are
somewhat more hardened than you get from thread-cutting taps. Beware
that the tap drill for roll taps is a different size from thread-cutting
taps, and a much more critical size as well.

If there is space behind the plate, another option might be
Rivnuts. They fit into a drilled (and countersunk if need be) hole, are
drawn somewhat like pop rivets, and provide a much longer thread.

I bought one of the HF gun kits and used it on my '91 F-150 doors to
hold the trailer mirrors on. Worked like champs for years, and AFAIK,
are still working. For $17, you cannot go wrong. Maybe he can use one
of them.

http://www.harborfreight.com/45-piec...-kit-1210.html

I *think* that those are Rivnuts stood on their heads and
photographed from nearly straight above, so it is hard to see for sure,
particularly with the rather low resolution in the photo.

Yeah, they're nuts with shoulders/collars built in. You drill the hole
and put the nut through it, then when you pull the trigger, it
collapses the shoulder around the hole and secures the nut. Unscrew
the tool and you're done.

The old rivnuts we used at Southcom were swaged in from behind. Those
had angled shoulders which the nut itself filled in when it was
swaged.


O.K. A bit better when I double-click on the original image.
It might be Nutserts instead of Rivnuts. I would prefer the Rivnuts if
there is enough back clearance for them. And, I would prefer one of the
proper tools which B.F. Goodrich made for the purpose.

O.K. .... Here is one on eBay -- but it does not show what the
size is:
#331046323231

It is likely 8-32 or 10-32 from the appearance. The price looks
nice -- especially with the manual.

As for the HF set -- I don't *ever* consider only ten of each
size to be useful -- even assuming that you get it right the first time
so you don't have to drill one or two out. Personally, I consider a lot
of 100 of a given size a better starting point. :-)

I used 3 and have had the set for 20 years since, so I'm fine with the
smaller sets. If it was something I used weekly, yes, sets of 100
would be a good thing.


The tool shown in the auction above has to be adjusted for both the
size of the Rivnut, and the thickness of the sheet metal into which it
is being installed. Get it too loose, and the Rivnut will turn
(especially if you have the ones without the key), and get it too tight
and you strip out the threads. I don't see provisions on the HF tool to
make such adjustments, though they may exist.

Thread the tool's screw back in and give it another OOMPH! ?


Here is an auction with better views of a Rivnut (one of many
auctions) -- selling in quantities of 25 Rivnuts per package:

#370306923448

Also -- since this is in the outdoors (and I presume an area
where rain is common, rather than a desert area), you will need to
consider the effects of different metals in contact in a wet
environment. So perhaps you should look into self-tapping aluminum
screws instead of steel. (Not sure what the results would be with brass
screws in aluminum instead, but it might be worth checking out.)

Anti-seize is cheap.

If you can get enough of it to prevent corrosion forming, and
keep it there, yes.

I don't recall having any trouble with any screw or spark plug I put
a/s on, ever. I've had one tube of aluminum-based a/s for 35 years
now and it's going strong. I don't do much with aluminum, so maybe
that makes a difference. It works well on s/s to steel, steel to
steel, and steel to aluminum head (spark plugs), though.

Where have you had trouble with a/s?

--
Worry is a misuse of imagination.
-- Dan Zadra

Best hold in thin alumium?
 

On 10/23/2013 3:51 AM, BottleBob wrote:
On Tuesday, October 22, 2013 11:28:27 PM UTC-7, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 10/22/2013 10:33 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:



I'm surprised you didn't recommend Boogers! They work for ALL those
pesky fastening jobs!

Following along that line of thought... how about Gorilla Snot Adhesive, Epoxy, or even Double Back tape?


Some of that tape is stronger than the base material. They hold war
planes together with it. They should make "Booger Tape"!

Best hold in thin alumium?
 

On 10/23/2013 7:43 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 10/23/2013 2:28 AM, Tom Gardner wrote:
Also -- since this is in the outdoors (and I presume an area
where rain is common, rather than a desert area), you will need to
consider the effects of different metals in contact in a wet
environment. So perhaps you should look into self-tapping aluminum
screws instead of steel. (Not sure what the results would be with
brass
screws in aluminum instead, but it might be worth checking out.)

Anti-seize is cheap.


I'm surprised you didn't recommend Boogers! They work for ALL those
pesky fastening jobs!

You know, if we have Godwin's law, and Young's Law. There
ought to be a law about boogers. Perhaps we can begin the
early drafts of writing such? TG's Law, maybe?




The company that makes "Duck Tape" is just down the street. I'll
approach them about making "Booger Tape".

Best hold in thin alumium?
 

On 10/23/2013 12:53 PM, Tom Gardner wrote:
I'm surprised you didn't recommend Boogers! They work for ALL those
pesky fastening jobs!

You know, if we have Godwin's law, and Young's Law. There
ought to be a law about boogers. Perhaps we can begin the
early drafts of writing such? TG's Law, maybe?




The company that makes "Duck Tape" is just down the street. I'll
approach them about making "Booger Tape".

Then you can be wealthy, in addition to intelligent. You're a good
example for the rest of us.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

Best hold in thin alumium?
 

Best hold in thin alumium?
 

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:


"I have a problem holding thin aluminum, about .080",
together for a period of 3 - 4 months in an outdoor environment. I have
tried drilling and taping with # 8, 10, 12, fine & course thread
machine
bolts, WHICH LAST A FEW CYCLES THEN STRIP OUT."

I guess you're so intent on defending your position that you ignored the
last part of his statement.
Cycles of WHAT? Assembly/disassembly, or thermal cycles?
I can easily imagine either interpretation.

Yes, without using an anti-seize coating, I can imagine #8 screws in
..080" sheet would be pretty fragile in continuous outdoor exposure.

Jon

Best hold in thin alumium?
 

KG wrote:


Further information

The aluminum is two 1/1.7" enclosed extrusions which need to be held
together till spring, then totally free to move back and forth across each
other until the next
winter. We live on the Great Lakes and they are storm doors for 70 feet
of sliding
glass windows walls, kg

Well, tapping #8 holes into extruded aluminum that is outdoors full-time
is not going to last. There is corrosion, and daily solar heating that
works the panels against what is under them. Some kind of fitting with
ability for the panels to slide a bit will help. The mention of Dzus
fasteners is a good one, they are used lots on aircraft for this
reason (corrosion + thermal cycling) and have stood up well over probably
80 years, now. But, not as easy to install, as you need unrestricted
access to the rear part to install the fastener. There are lots of
outfits that make specialty fasteners for aluminum things, possibly
looking at the Thomas register will give you some leads.

Using liberal amounts of an anti-seize coating on the screws might
prolong the life of the threads in the rear part. Also, there may be
a screw material that is optimal for use in aluminum, some steel and
stainless screws make the corrosion MUCH worse, and the threads will
gall massively the first time the screw is removed.

Jon

Best hold in thin alumium?
 

John wrote:


Rivnuts , nutserts or a similar product.
John
Even these need to be selected carefully for the right anti-corrosive
properties. Either aviation or marine hardware would be a good place
to look. Mixing metals in a wet environment will cause pretty bad
corrosion in many cases.

Jon

Best hold in thin alumium?
 

KG wrote:

The aluminum is two 1/1.7" enclosed extrusions which need to be held together till
spring, then totally free to move back and forth across each other until the next
winter. We live on the Great Lakes and they are storm doors for 70 feet of sliding
glass windows walls, kg


How about an internal expanding rubber plug? Like a boat drain plug but
smaller. 1/4" or smaller rubber tubing on a small screw with a washer
and nut to draw down and bulge the rubber. Use stainless or bronze for
the screws and it shouldn't corrode. Put plug in hole, tighten nut to
expand rubber. You could even get fancy and use countersunk heads to
ensure expansion.

--
Steve W.

Best hold in thin alumium?
 

On Wed, 23 Oct 2013 16:52:18 -0400, "Steve W."
wrote:

KG wrote:

The aluminum is two 1/1.7" enclosed extrusions which need to be held together till
spring, then totally free to move back and forth across each other until the next
winter. We live on the Great Lakes and they are storm doors for 70 feet of sliding
glass windows walls, kg


How about an internal expanding rubber plug? Like a boat drain plug but
smaller. 1/4" or smaller rubber tubing on a small screw with a washer
and nut to draw down and bulge the rubber. Use stainless or bronze for
the screws and it shouldn't corrode. Put plug in hole, tighten nut to
expand rubber. You could even get fancy and use countersunk heads to
ensure expansion.
I take it this is two door panels sliding past each other? The two
extrusions "move back and forth across each other " when the panels
move - what's wrong with going through BOTH sides of BOTH extrusions
and putting in a pin????

Best hold in thin alumium?
 

On 2013-10-23, Larry Jaques wrote:
On 23 Oct 2013 04:42:35 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2013-10-23, Larry Jaques wrote:
On 22 Oct 2013 21:58:52 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2013-10-22, KG wrote:
I have a problem holding thin aluminum, about .080", together for a period of 3 - 4
months in an outdoor environment. I have tried drilling and taping with # 8, 10, 12,
fine & course thread machine bolts, which last a few cycles then strip out. The force
needed is about 3 - 5 lb compression. I only have limited access to one side of the
joint. I'm now thinking of a finer thread screw such as drywall screws which are
designed for metal studs. Any thoughts or suggestions??

Lloyd, where is the part which says he wants to take them apart?

I saved a post and doubled up in this one, OK? ;)

O.K. But no comment about the part quoted below where I
explained at least why *I* read it as implying semi-frequent
disassembly?


Where is Lloyd in this thread? (at least the part quoted here).
But I read the "which last a few cycles and then strip out" as implying
that it if fairly often removed and reassembled. (Removal/tightening
cycles of the screws.) Granted -- he may not have meant that, but then
again he may have.

[ ... ]

If there is space behind the plate, another option might be
Rivnuts. They fit into a drilled (and countersunk if need be) hole, are
drawn somewhat like pop rivets, and provide a much longer thread.

I bought one of the HF gun kits and used it on my '91 F-150 doors to
hold the trailer mirrors on. Worked like champs for years, and AFAIK,
are still working. For $17, you cannot go wrong. Maybe he can use one
of them.

http://www.harborfreight.com/45-piec...-kit-1210.html

I *think* that those are Rivnuts stood on their heads and
photographed from nearly straight above, so it is hard to see for sure,
particularly with the rather low resolution in the photo.

Yeah, they're nuts with shoulders/collars built in. You drill the hole
and put the nut through it, then when you pull the trigger, it
collapses the shoulder around the hole and secures the nut. Unscrew
the tool and you're done.

Yes. The "Nutserts" are two-part items, in which the threaded
part expands an outer collar -- in contrast to a "Rivnut" which is a
single piece and which has a part thinner which expands to hold it
firmly in place.

The old rivnuts we used at Southcom were swaged in from behind. Those
had angled shoulders which the nut itself filled in when it was
swaged.

Yet another style -- and not matching the Rivnuts as originally
made and sold by B.F. Goodrich -- the ones who own(ed) the "Rivnut"
name.

[ ... ]

As for the HF set -- I don't *ever* consider only ten of each
size to be useful -- even assuming that you get it right the first time
so you don't have to drill one or two out. Personally, I consider a lot
of 100 of a given size a better starting point. :-)

I used 3 and have had the set for 20 years since, so I'm fine with the
smaller sets. If it was something I used weekly, yes, sets of 100
would be a good thing.

O.K. I sometimes use twenty on a single project.

The tool shown in the auction above has to be adjusted for both the
size of the Rivnut, and the thickness of the sheet metal into which it
is being installed. Get it too loose, and the Rivnut will turn
(especially if you have the ones without the key), and get it too tight
and you strip out the threads. I don't see provisions on the HF tool to
make such adjustments, though they may exist.

Thread the tool's screw back in and give it another OOMPH! ?

If it did not draw in fully -- but not very useful if you strip
out the threads by over-drawing. :-)

[ ... ]

Anti-seize is cheap.

If you can get enough of it to prevent corrosion forming, and
keep it there, yes.

I don't recall having any trouble with any screw or spark plug I put
a/s on, ever. I've had one tube of aluminum-based a/s for 35 years
now and it's going strong. I don't do much with aluminum, so maybe
that makes a difference. It works well on s/s to steel, steel to
steel, and steel to aluminum head (spark plugs), though.

But that is a much thicker piece of aluminum, thick enough to
have a number of threads engaging -- not the one or two threads which
would happen with the aluminum thickness described in the original post
(0.080"). A 12.5 TPI (2mm pitch) screw would only get one thread in the
metal. 32 TPI (e.g. 6-32, 8-32 or 10-32 to name common ones which I
believe the OP mentioned) would only have 1.6 threads in the aluminum
sheet.

Where have you had trouble with a/s?

I haven't -- but I've also not used it to try to prevent
corrosion in a very shallow thread engagement. I would think that it
would be more likely to wash out (in a rainy environment) -- especially
if he keeps removing and re-installing the screws. :-)

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
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Email: | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
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--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Best hold in thin alumium?
 

On 2013-10-23, KG wrote:
On Tue, 22 Oct 2013 23:00:35 -0400, wrote:

[ ... ]

The aluminum is two 1/1.7" enclosed extrusions which need to be held together till
spring, then totally free to move back and forth across each other until the next
winter. We live on the Great Lakes and they are storm doors for 70 feet of sliding
glass windows walls, kg

O.K. For this, I would use true Rivnuts -- likely 6-32
countersunk ones so you can make the surface flush so it will slide
freely. I think that much larger than 6-32 would require a thicker
aluminum, but without measuring, or looking up in an old B.F. Goodrich
catalog, I can't be sure.

But the Rivnuts would give you plenty of threads four or five, I
think) so your screws would last for more cycles. I would use aluminum
screws in aluminum Rivnuts -- and use an anti-seize compound on those.
This would give the best life and lack of corrosion. If you need the
greater shear strength of steel screws, then get steel Rivnuts too --
and still use the anti-sieze.

The Dzus fasteners mentioned are very good -- but you would need
access to the inside of the extrusions to place and rivet the fixed
side -- and depending on how far from the end of the extrusion, you may
not be able to set the rivets as needed. And -- you would need custom
ones with a much longer reach than most have.

Good Luck,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---