Pistol Recommendations?
 

I stopped by a gun dealer yesterday on the way home, I'm looking for
something for home defense before the Nazi's ban everything but caulk guns.

I'm trying to decide between two types of guns, one would be a compact
concealed carry gun if that ever becomes legal in Illinois. The other I'm
considering is probably a 45ACP, maybe a 1911 or 1911 Compact. The dealer
had several 1911's, they had a Springfield 1911 in my price range and a "Mil
Spec" that might have been a little cheaper IIRC.

So, would I be best off to get a full size 1911 and then buy a concealed
carry gun later if the state allows concealed carry? Or would a 1911
compact possibly serve both purposes, shoot as good as a full size 1911 but
be more "concealed carry" friendly? Is the Springfield 1911 a good one or
is there a better option for the money?

I guess the reality of it is, the bigger the gun the less often I would
carry it, I may be better off with a full size 1911 and get a concealed
carry gun later if/when Illinois permits it.

Thanks!

RogerN

Pistol Recommendations?
 

On Thu, 10 Jan 2013 05:53:24 -0600, "RogerN"
wrote:

I stopped by a gun dealer yesterday on the way home, I'm looking for
something for home defense before the Nazi's ban everything but caulk guns.

I'm trying to decide between two types of guns, one would be a compact
concealed carry gun if that ever becomes legal in Illinois. The other I'm
considering is probably a 45ACP, maybe a 1911 or 1911 Compact. The dealer
had several 1911's, they had a Springfield 1911 in my price range and a "Mil
Spec" that might have been a little cheaper IIRC.

So, would I be best off to get a full size 1911 and then buy a concealed
carry gun later if the state allows concealed carry? Or would a 1911
compact possibly serve both purposes, shoot as good as a full size 1911 but
be more "concealed carry" friendly? Is the Springfield 1911 a good one or
is there a better option for the money?

I guess the reality of it is, the bigger the gun the less often I would
carry it, I may be better off with a full size 1911 and get a concealed
carry gun later if/when Illinois permits it.

Thanks!

RogerN


If you are not a recreational shooter..Id go with the smaller compact
weapon that you can go CCW with, or simply tuck it away on your
person. Full sized 45s are fine, but for most folks ..it tend to be a
bit Iffy to be trying to conceal.

We have never met or even spoken, so I have no idea bout your
familiarity with handguns or even your body size.

Does it need to be a self loader? There is absolutely nothing wrong
with a good 3-4" .357 double action revolver in stainless, such as a
S&W 586/686, Ruger GP 100s and so on and so forth.

And right now..they are selling for cheaper than "self loading combat
guns" A good used wheel gun can be had pretty darned cheaply and they
tuck away quite nicely.

How much "no bull****" experience have you with handguns in genera?
We can probably suggest some arms for you to take a look at.

Gunner

The methodology of the left has always been:

1. Lie
2. Repeat the lie as many times as possible
3. Have as many people repeat the lie as often as possible
4. Eventually, the uninformed believe the lie
5. The lie will then be made into some form oflaw
6. Then everyone must conform to the lie

Pistol Recommendations?
 

"RogerN" wrote in message
m...
I stopped by a gun dealer yesterday on the way home, I'm looking for
something for home defense before the Nazi's ban everything but caulk
guns.


Carry some harmless tool around for a while, like a voltmeter or
cordless screwdriver, and see how much it would intrude on your normal
activities if you couldn't take it off or let it be detected. I've
made people very nervous when they misidentified my flashlight and a
carpenter's or stagehand's valuable battery drill can be a major
nuisance to secure when you go out for lunch.

Pistol Recommendations?
 

On Thursday, January 10, 2013 8:45:08 AM UTC-5, Gunner wrote:
On Thu, 10 Jan 2013 05:53:24 -0600, "RogerN"

wrote:



I stopped by a gun dealer yesterday on the way home, I'm looking for

something for home defense before the Nazi's ban everything but caulk guns.



I'm trying to decide between two types of guns, one would be a compact

concealed carry gun if that ever becomes legal in Illinois. The other I'm

considering is probably a 45ACP, maybe a 1911 or 1911 Compact. The dealer

had several 1911's, they had a Springfield 1911 in my price range and a "Mil

Spec" that might have been a little cheaper IIRC.



So, would I be best off to get a full size 1911 and then buy a concealed

carry gun later if the state allows concealed carry? Or would a 1911

compact possibly serve both purposes, shoot as good as a full size 1911 but

be more "concealed carry" friendly? Is the Springfield 1911 a good one or

is there a better option for the money?



I guess the reality of it is, the bigger the gun the less often I would

carry it, I may be better off with a full size 1911 and get a concealed

carry gun later if/when Illinois permits it.



Thanks!



RogerN





If you are not a recreational shooter..Id go with the smaller compact

weapon that you can go CCW with, or simply tuck it away on your

person. Full sized 45s are fine, but for most folks ..it tend to be a

bit Iffy to be trying to conceal.



We have never met or even spoken, so I have no idea bout your

familiarity with handguns or even your body size.



Does it need to be a self loader? There is absolutely nothing wrong

with a good 3-4" .357 double action revolver in stainless, such as a

S&W 586/686, Ruger GP 100s and so on and so forth.



And right now..they are selling for cheaper than "self loading combat

guns" A good used wheel gun can be had pretty darned cheaply and they

tuck away quite nicely.



How much "no bull****" experience have you with handguns in genera?

We can probably suggest some arms for you to take a look at.



Gunner



The methodology of the left has always been:



1. Lie

2. Repeat the lie as many times as possible

3. Have as many people repeat the lie as often as possible

4. Eventually, the uninformed believe the lie

5. The lie will then be made into some form oflaw

6. Then everyone must conform to the lie


I agree on the wheelgun. Think hard about what you're likely to face in a home-defense situation. Are you fully awake? When did you last handle the gun? What condition is it in?

With a 1911, which is a fine handgun, you'll have to think about these things. Is there a round in the chamber? Do you have a clean grip to work the grip safety? Is the hammer back? Don't forget the thumb safety! That's a lot of quick thinking in the foggy middle of the night, under stress.

Is anyone in the house who might need to shoot it left-handed? If they are, do you have an ambi safety on the gun? Does whoever else might shoot it know about all of the things above?

I favor a wheelgun for home defense. Pick it up, pull the trigger, and it goes bang. Glock fans will probably weigh in here to argue for their favorite gun, but for the money and for simple shooting, the wheelgun is the best choice, in my opinion.

Scraper

Pistol Recommendations?
 

On Thu, 10 Jan 2013 05:53:24 -0600, "RogerN"
wrote:

snip
I'm looking for
something for home defense
snip

One of the first things to do *BEFORE* buying any home
defense gun is to research potential liabilities in your
area and make your mind up about what you are going to do.
An intruder confrontation is a time for action, not
philosophical contemplation, and mental preparation appears
to be one of the major factors in determining self-defense
success or failure. A gun is power, and with power comes
responsibility...

IMNSHO -- Unless you are willing to fire at least several
boxes of ammo, i.e. several hundred rounds, for training and
familiarization, a hand gun should not be your first choice
for home defense, but rather a short barreled pump action
shotgun.

This solves several problems in that the permitting process
is generally easier (most likely not required), operation by
semi and untrained individuals is safer/easier (however any
person that may conceivably use the house gun should
familiarization fire at least 10 rounds on silhouette
targets and water bottle type targets in semi darkness so
they will know what to expect in the way of muzzle
blast/flash and target damage), minimally acceptable
proficiency/safety is more easily obtained, the reliability
is better, and if you stick with smaller size shot (nothing
over a #4) the risk of over penetration, i.e. rounds through
a wall into another room or the next house and into an
innocent bystander are minimized.

The intimidation factor is also better, and even if you miss
on the first round, the muzzle blast in an enclosed area is
large enough to discourage all but the most hopped up or
hyper individuals. The stopping power is second to none,
and even if a perp is wearing body armor or heavy clothing,
they will most likely be knocked down and the wind knocked
out of them with a close range center of mass torso hit.

Mechanically solid but cosmetically imperfect pump shotguns
(e.g. dings, surface rust/browning, pitted barrels)
generally are *MUCH* cheaper than hand guns, and are more
likely to function with minimal maintenance and old
ammunition, and a dud round is much more early cleared and a
fresh round loaded with a pump shotgun than with any
semi-automatic hand gun.


FWIW --


--
Unka' George

"Gold is the money of kings,
silver is the money of gentlemen,
barter is the money of peasants,
but debt is the money of slaves"

-Norm Franz, "Money and Wealth in the New Millenium"

Pistol Recommendations?
 

On Thu, 10 Jan 2013 05:53:24 -0600, "RogerN"
wrote:

I'm looking for
something for home defense

I take it that prayer still isn't cutting it...

Considering your stories that you carry on conversations with God
during which he doles out driving directions and healings, why are you
asking ANYTHING here? Who knows more about everything than God? Seems
like it would be a nobrainer for you to get your advice from the
highest authority. Don't tell me he has something against guns!

Pistol Recommendations?
 

Scraper wrote in
:

With a 1911, which is a fine handgun, you'll have to think about
these things. Is there a round in the chamber? Do you have a
clean grip to work the grip safety? Is the hammer back? Don't
forget the thumb safety! That's a lot of quick thinking in the
foggy middle of the night, under stress.

IMHO, due to exactly those considerations, it's probably best to store it with a full magazine,
an empty chamber, and the safety *off*. When you're under that kind of duress, you
probably won't have the fine motor control needed to disengage the safety -- but you will
have enough to rack the action and chamber a round.

And if the only members of the household are firearms-savvy adults, there may not be a
need to store it with the chamber empty -- as long as _everyone_knows_ the gun is loaded
and not safed.

Is anyone in the house who might need to shoot it left-handed?
If they are, do you have an ambi safety on the gun? Does whoever
else might shoot it know about all of the things above?

Another reason for storing it as I suggest.

Pistol Recommendations?
 

On Thursday, January 10, 2013 10:49:02 AM UTC-5, F. George McDuffee wrote:
On Thu, 10 Jan 2013 05:53:24 -0600, "RogerN"

wrote:



snip

I'm looking for

something for home defense

snip



One of the first things to do *BEFORE* buying any home

defense gun is to research potential liabilities in your

area and make your mind up about what you are going to do.

An intruder confrontation is a time for action, not

philosophical contemplation, and mental preparation appears

to be one of the major factors in determining self-defense

success or failure. A gun is power, and with power comes

responsibility...



IMNSHO -- Unless you are willing to fire at least several

boxes of ammo, i.e. several hundred rounds, for training and

familiarization, a hand gun should not be your first choice

for home defense, but rather a short barreled pump action

shotgun.



This solves several problems in that the permitting process

is generally easier (most likely not required), operation by

semi and untrained individuals is safer/easier (however any

person that may conceivably use the house gun should

familiarization fire at least 10 rounds on silhouette

targets and water bottle type targets in semi darkness so

they will know what to expect in the way of muzzle

blast/flash and target damage), minimally acceptable

proficiency/safety is more easily obtained, the reliability

is better, and if you stick with smaller size shot (nothing

over a #4) the risk of over penetration, i.e. rounds through

a wall into another room or the next house and into an

innocent bystander are minimized.



The intimidation factor is also better, and even if you miss

on the first round, the muzzle blast in an enclosed area is

large enough to discourage all but the most hopped up or

hyper individuals. The stopping power is second to none,

and even if a perp is wearing body armor or heavy clothing,

they will most likely be knocked down and the wind knocked

out of them with a close range center of mass torso hit.



Mechanically solid but cosmetically imperfect pump shotguns

(e.g. dings, surface rust/browning, pitted barrels)

generally are *MUCH* cheaper than hand guns, and are more

likely to function with minimal maintenance and old

ammunition, and a dud round is much more early cleared and a

fresh round loaded with a pump shotgun than with any

semi-automatic hand gun.





FWIW --





--

Unka' George



"Gold is the money of kings,

silver is the money of gentlemen,

barter is the money of peasants,

but debt is the money of slaves"



-Norm Franz, "Money and Wealth in the New Millenium"


I don't think about this much, but somebody posted a link here a few years ago that's made me uncomfortable about using shotguns for home defense.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

It's pretty surprising, espectially the example of the guy shot at close range in the chest with a shotgun, who was sitting up in a chair waiting for the EMTs. And the guy shot with #6 shot at just a few feet, who had a nasty but shallow wound, doesn't give me a lot of confidence in small shot.

Another thing that worries me. I don't know the answer to this, but how long are you willing to trust a hammer spring in the cocked position, waiting for the time you're going to shoot? You could leave the chamber empty and rack a shell in when you need it, but do you want to give that much warning to an intruder? He'll either **** his pants or shoot first, I'd think. Are you feeling lucky?

Scraper

Pistol Recommendations?
 

Doug Miller wrote:

Scraper wrote in
:

With a 1911, which is a fine handgun, you'll have to think about
these things. Is there a round in the chamber? Do you have a
clean grip to work the grip safety? Is the hammer back? Don't
forget the thumb safety! That's a lot of quick thinking in the
foggy middle of the night, under stress.

IMHO, due to exactly those considerations, it's probably best to store it with a full magazine,
an empty chamber, and the safety *off*. When you're under that kind of duress, you
probably won't have the fine motor control needed to disengage the safety -- but you will
have enough to rack the action and chamber a round.

And if the only members of the household are firearms-savvy adults, there may not be a
need to store it with the chamber empty -- as long as _everyone_knows_ the gun is loaded
and not safed.

Is anyone in the house who might need to shoot it left-handed?
If they are, do you have an ambi safety on the gun? Does whoever
else might shoot it know about all of the things above?

Another reason for storing it as I suggest.

A cheaper DAO plastic frame pistol will put just as many holes in the
perp, has no safeties to think about and the cost savings can go towards
more good JHP ammo.

Pistol Recommendations?
 

"RogerN" wrote in message
m...
I stopped by a gun dealer yesterday on the way home, I'm looking for
something for home defense before the Nazi's ban everything but caulk guns.

You said pistol, but also said home defense.

Can't beat a good pump shotgun. Ammo is cheap, and still available, and
reloading is plausible.

If you want a multi-purpose weapon, I have found it better to buy the right
one for each purpose.

I don't think one can beat a shotgun for general defense. You don't have to
be a good shot. You can intimidate most folks with a shotgun. The noise of
it racking is enough to make most people leave. You can shoot by sound in a
dark place. The muzzle blast till take them out if the projectiles miss.
You can skip it off the ground to neutralize more than one threat with only
one shot.

Lots of reasons I like shotgun over pistol for home protection.

Or, get one of the new shotgun pistols...............

Steve

Pistol Recommendations?
 

On 1/10/2013 10:49 AM, F. George McDuffee wrote:
On Thu, 10 Jan 2013 05:53:24 -0600, "RogerN"
wrote:

snip
I'm looking for
something for home defense
snip

One of the first things to do *BEFORE* buying any home
defense gun is to research potential liabilities in your
area and make your mind up about what you are going to do.
An intruder confrontation is a time for action, not
philosophical contemplation, and mental preparation appears
to be one of the major factors in determining self-defense
success or failure. A gun is power, and with power comes
responsibility...

IMNSHO -- Unless you are willing to fire at least several
boxes of ammo, i.e. several hundred rounds, for training and
familiarization, a hand gun should not be your first choice
for home defense, but rather a short barreled pump action
shotgun.

This solves several problems in that the permitting process
is generally easier (most likely not required), operation by
semi and untrained individuals is safer/easier (however any
person that may conceivably use the house gun should
familiarization fire at least 10 rounds on silhouette
targets and water bottle type targets in semi darkness so
they will know what to expect in the way of muzzle
blast/flash and target damage), minimally acceptable
proficiency/safety is more easily obtained, the reliability
is better, and if you stick with smaller size shot (nothing
over a #4) the risk of over penetration, i.e. rounds through
a wall into another room or the next house and into an
innocent bystander are minimized.

The intimidation factor is also better, and even if you miss
on the first round, the muzzle blast in an enclosed area is
large enough to discourage all but the most hopped up or
hyper individuals. The stopping power is second to none,
and even if a perp is wearing body armor or heavy clothing,
they will most likely be knocked down and the wind knocked
out of them with a close range center of mass torso hit.

Mechanically solid but cosmetically imperfect pump shotguns
(e.g. dings, surface rust/browning, pitted barrels)
generally are *MUCH* cheaper than hand guns, and are more
likely to function with minimal maintenance and old
ammunition, and a dud round is much more early cleared and a
fresh round loaded with a pump shotgun than with any
semi-automatic hand gun.


FWIW --




A wise synopsis, as always!

Pistol Recommendations?
 

On Thursday, January 10, 2013 11:54:33 AM UTC-5, Steve B wrote:
"RogerN" wrote in message

m...

I stopped by a gun dealer yesterday on the way home, I'm looking for

something for home defense before the Nazi's ban everything but caulk guns.



You said pistol, but also said home defense.



Can't beat a good pump shotgun. Ammo is cheap, and still available, and

reloading is plausible.



If you want a multi-purpose weapon, I have found it better to buy the right

one for each purpose.



I don't think one can beat a shotgun for general defense. You don't have to

be a good shot.

At 12 feet, the pattern is likely to be 4 inches in diameter. You still have to aim.

You can handload with spreader loads but they tend to have big holes in their patterns.

Scraper



You can intimidate most folks with a shotgun. The noise of

it racking is enough to make most people leave. You can shoot by sound in a

dark place. The muzzle blast till take them out if the projectiles miss.

You can skip it off the ground to neutralize more than one threat with only

one shot.



Lots of reasons I like shotgun over pistol for home protection.



Or, get one of the new shotgun pistols...............



Steve

Pistol Recommendations?
 

"Doug Miller" wrote in message

And if the only members of the household are firearms-savvy adults,
there may not be a
need to store it with the chamber empty -- as long as
_everyone_knows_ the gun is loaded
and not safed.


A chambered round is hazardous in a fire, when firemen could be in any
direction including on the roof.

Pistol Recommendations?
 

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in :

"Doug Miller" wrote in message

And if the only members of the household are firearms-savvy adults,
there may not be a
need to store it with the chamber empty -- as long as
_everyone_knows_ the gun is loaded
and not safed.


A chambered round is hazardous in a fire, when firemen could be in any
direction including on the roof.

An unlikely event, multiplied by another unlikely event, is a very unlikely event.

And anyway, if the weapon is intended for use as home defense, it's going to be some
place where the homeowner can easily grab it on his way out of the house if there's a fire.

Pistol Recommendations?
 

On Thu, 10 Jan 2013 12:18:17 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message

And if the only members of the household are firearms-savvy adults,
there may not be a
need to store it with the chamber empty -- as long as
_everyone_knows_ the gun is loaded
and not safed.


A chambered round is hazardous in a fire, when firemen could be in any
direction including on the roof.

Is that a common sense thought, or do you have cites for firemen
getting shot (unintentionally) during saves, Jim?

--
I started out with nothing and
I still have most of it left!
--anon

Pistol Recommendations?
 

Larry Jaques wrote:

On Thu, 10 Jan 2013 12:18:17 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
? wrote:

?"Doug Miller" ? wrote in message
??
?? And if the only members of the household are firearms-savvy adults,
?? there may not be a
?? need to store it with the chamber empty -- as long as
?? _everyone_knows_ the gun is loaded
?? and not safed.
???
?
?A chambered round is hazardous in a fire, when firemen could be in any
?direction including on the roof.

Is that a common sense thought, or do you have cites for firemen
getting shot (unintentionally) during saves, Jim?


The leader of a motorcycle gang lived two doors from my dad's house
when I was in high school. I saw flames & called the fire department,
but they had to let it burn to the ground because of all the ammo going
off in the basement. They refused to get close enough to fight it, with
rounds bouncing off their fire truck, out in the middle of the street.
The fire marshal said there was over 50,000 empty pieces of brass after
he investigated the fire. He reported that someone had set a booby
trap, and the residents had left on vacation two hours before the fire.

Pistol Recommendations?
 

Doug Miller wrote:

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in :

"Doug Miller" wrote in message

And if the only members of the household are firearms-savvy adults,
there may not be a
need to store it with the chamber empty -- as long as
_everyone_knows_ the gun is loaded
and not safed.


A chambered round is hazardous in a fire, when firemen could be in any
direction including on the roof.

An unlikely event, multiplied by another unlikely event, is a very unlikely event.

And anyway, if the weapon is intended for use as home defense, it's going to be some
place where the homeowner can easily grab it on his way out of the house if there's a fire.

That, and consideration can be easily given to the storage orientation
of the firearm. The 9mm by my bed is down in a little quick access safe
at floor level and the muzzle faces the exterior wall which has full
dimensional brick, and about 10' out from the house the land slopes up a
good 4' as well. It would take quite a while to get that gun at floor
level hot enough to cook off a round, and even if it did the bullet
wouldn't be going anywhere problematic.

Pistol Recommendations?
 

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:

On Thu, 10 Jan 2013 12:18:17 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
? wrote:

?"Doug Miller" ? wrote in message
??
?? And if the only members of the household are firearms-savvy adults,
?? there may not be a
?? need to store it with the chamber empty -- as long as
?? _everyone_knows_ the gun is loaded
?? and not safed.
???
?
?A chambered round is hazardous in a fire, when firemen could be in any
?direction including on the roof.

Is that a common sense thought, or do you have cites for firemen
getting shot (unintentionally) during saves, Jim?

The leader of a motorcycle gang lived two doors from my dad's house
when I was in high school. I saw flames & called the fire department,
but they had to let it burn to the ground because of all the ammo going
off in the basement. They refused to get close enough to fight it, with
rounds bouncing off their fire truck, out in the middle of the street.
The fire marshal said there was over 50,000 empty pieces of brass after
he investigated the fire. He reported that someone had set a booby
trap, and the residents had left on vacation two hours before the fire.

Research has shown that unchambered ammunition does not pose any risk to
firefighters. It has been proven that the bits of shrapnel tossed around
by those uncontained bursting cartridges has energy equivalent to a BB
gun at most and will not penetrate standard firefighter turnout gear.
Hopefully by now that knowledge is well disseminated to the fire
departments.

Pistol Recommendations?
 

"Steve B" wrote in :

[...]
I don't think one can beat a shotgun for general defense. You don't have to
be a good shot.

Oh, really? Shotgun pellets spread radially about 1" per yard of travel, so if someone's on
the other side of a reasonably large room, the pattern isn't going to be much more than six
inches wide, a lot less than that if he's closer -- meaning it's pretty easy to miss.

And the wider the pattern, the less concentrated the force delivered *if* you happen to hit
him.

You can intimidate most folks with a shotgun. The noise of
it racking is enough to make most people leave.

Maybe. I don't think I'd want to trust my safety to that.

You can shoot by sound in a dark place.

Of course you can. *Hitting the target* is an entirely different matter.

The muzzle blast till take them out if the projectiles miss.

Oh, bullsh*t. The muzzle *flash* will temporarily blind, and perhaps disorient, the adversary,
but it isn't going to "take him out". And remember, *your* night vision is going to impaired
too.

You can skip it off the ground to neutralize more than one threat with only
one shot.

Wow. Sounds like your "knowledge" of shotguns comes from the movies.

Pistol Recommendations?
 

"Snag" wrote in :

whoyakidding's ghost wrote:
On Thu, 10 Jan 2013 05:53:24 -0600, "RogerN"
wrote:

I'm looking for
something for home defense

I take it that prayer still isn't cutting it...

Considering your stories that you carry on conversations with God
during which he doles out driving directions and healings, why are you
asking ANYTHING here? Who knows more about everything than God? Seems
like it would be a nobrainer for you to get your advice from the
highest authority. Don't tell me he has something against guns!

I believe you have confused RogerN with Stormin' Moron ...

Actually, I don't think that he has.

Pistol Recommendations?
 

Doug Miller wrote:

"Steve B" wrote in :

[...]
I don't think one can beat a shotgun for general defense. You don't have to
be a good shot.

Oh, really? Shotgun pellets spread radially about 1" per yard of travel, so if someone's on
the other side of a reasonably large room, the pattern isn't going to be much more than six
inches wide, a lot less than that if he's closer -- meaning it's pretty easy to miss.

And the wider the pattern, the less concentrated the force delivered *if* you happen to hit
him.

You can intimidate most folks with a shotgun. The noise of
it racking is enough to make most people leave.

Maybe. I don't think I'd want to trust my safety to that.

You can shoot by sound in a dark place.

Of course you can. *Hitting the target* is an entirely different matter.

The muzzle blast till take them out if the projectiles miss.

Oh, bullsh*t. The muzzle *flash* will temporarily blind, and perhaps disorient, the adversary,
but it isn't going to "take him out". And remember, *your* night vision is going to impaired
too.

You can skip it off the ground to neutralize more than one threat with only
one shot.

Wow. Sounds like your "knowledge" of shotguns comes from the movies.

While even a short 18" barrel shotgun can be a bit awkward in a confined
space, a 12ga magnum slug will certainly do a nice job neutralizing most
threats. Even in body armor a hit from a 12ga slug is going to knock
most anyone for a loop. I still stick with a 9mm by the bed for it's
convenience and easy maneuverability though.

Pistol Recommendations?
 

On Thu, 10 Jan 2013 12:07:07 -0500, Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks
wrote:

snip
A wise synopsis, as always!
snip

Thanks for the kind words!

A few more suggestions if you decide to go with a pump
shotgun strictly for home defense.

(1) Most likely you will have the barrel shortened [18_1/2
inch minimum barrel, 36+ inches O/A length to avoid Federal
"sawed off" shotgun violations], removing any choke. If you
carefully squeeze the end of the barrel in a vise to reduce
the vertical bore by about 0.040 inch [for 12 gauge],
possibly a little more, you will have created a "duckbill"
type choke that will create a wider but shorter shot pattern
which can be helpful. This "choke" should taper smoothly
from bore size to 0.040 less vertically over 2 to 3 inches.
A few hacksaw cuts across the end of the barrel on the top
will also act as a "compensator" helping hold the muzzle
down when rapidly fired, although this will greatly increase
the muzzle flash/blast perceived by the shooter under low
light conditions. If the slots are angled toward the rear
of the gun you may get some recoil reduction which can help
in a rapid fire situation. If you do either or both of
these modifications, be sure to test fire gun with a
looooong string using heavy hunting loads.

(2) In all likelihood, any intruder confrontation will be in
low to minimal light. If you paint a wide [3/8 - 1/2] white
stripe on the top of the barrel it will greatly help in
target acquisition/aiming under these conditions, as will
painting the first one or two inches of the barrel white.

(3) While I suggested #4 as the largest shot size to avoid
over penetration, #2 goose loads should also minimize over
penetration, and may provide a slight increase in stopping
power over the #4 shot.

For safety and reliability I suggest keeping the shotgun
uncocked (avoiding spring fatigue) and without a round in
the chamber (avoiding "cook off" problems in case of a house
fire). [FWIW - a condom or toy balloon over the muzzle will
help keep the dust, mud dobber nests, ect. out, and you can
fire right though it]. As part of your mental preperation,
you should never display your weapon or chamber a round in a
confrontation, except to use it, and the split second it
takes to jack a round into the chamber and then fire won't
give a perp time to say "ah sh**", let alone time to draw
and aim a weapon.

This advise is worth at least twice what you paid for it...


--
Unka' George

"Gold is the money of kings,
silver is the money of gentlemen,
barter is the money of peasants,
but debt is the money of slaves"

-Norm Franz, "Money and Wealth in the New Millenium"

Pistol Recommendations?
 

On Thu, 10 Jan 2013 13:23:24 -0600, "Snag"
wrote:

whoyakidding's ghost wrote:
On Thu, 10 Jan 2013 05:53:24 -0600, "RogerN"
wrote:

I'm looking for
something for home defense

I take it that prayer still isn't cutting it...

Considering your stories that you carry on conversations with God
during which he doles out driving directions and healings, why are you
asking ANYTHING here? Who knows more about everything than God? Seems
like it would be a nobrainer for you to get your advice from the
highest authority. Don't tell me he has something against guns!

I believe you have confused RogerN with Stormin' Moron

Nope, you are wrong as usual.

"I have had a few healings, a few visions after asking (in prayer) for
directions, other various miracles" -RogerN
http://groups.google.com/group/talk....ed7389a42e4378

RogerN, Stormin Moron and you are in fact, equally stupid. One gets
driving directions from his imaginary friend, one is protected from
temptation by his magic underwear, and another posts his false
"beliefs" rather than doing a google search.

Snag
Learning keeps
you young !

So are you really old, or did you learn stupidity to stay young?

Pistol Recommendations?
 

On Thu, 10 Jan 2013 08:54:56 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"RogerN" wrote in message
om...
I stopped by a gun dealer yesterday on the way home, I'm looking for
something for home defense before the Nazi's ban everything but caulk
guns.


Carry some harmless tool around for a while, like a voltmeter or
cordless screwdriver, and see how much it would intrude on your normal
activities if you couldn't take it off or let it be detected. I've
made people very nervous when they misidentified my flashlight and a
carpenter's or stagehand's valuable battery drill can be a major
nuisance to secure when you go out for lunch.

Indeed. Not everyone has a body form that can be easy to tuck a
weapon away on.

Im 6'3" and at 195lbs. So I simply wear 2xx large shirts or a size 50
sport coat if Im carrying. Or a decent brightly colored fanny pack
with keys and other camoflauge dangling from it. Or an ankle
holster.

That being said..this is what is nearly always on me.. in some place
or another.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnMWot0-9vs

Its a very basic down and dirty reliable as a rock weapon. As you can
see in the video above..its minimalistic. But it works. Its not
something you are going to want to spend a day blasting hot rounds
down range with. Even I dont care to do that. But it works for what
it was intended to do. I can hit 2 liter bottles with it at 15 yrds if
I take my time. Up close..inside of 10 yrds..it works very nicely.

Others Id recommend a

Kahr PM45
http://www.kahr.com/Pistols/Kahr-PM45.asp

Glock 36
http://us.glock.com/products/model/g36

Springfield XDS
http://xdspistol.com/specs.php
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2J5qRT_X_0
http://www.xdtalk.com/forums/xd-s-di...ison-pics.html


and the Firestar
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yymlzTZ9fSQ

And yes..the Firestars are a bit heavy. But frankly..heavy is better
when running the .45

If I were going to go to a plastic gun..or another small .45/40...Id
buy a Springfield XDS, followed by the Kahr and then the Glock.

Im not a big Glock fan for a number of reasons Ive mentioned before.
But..they are decent guns for all of that.


Now...there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with the .40S&W cartridge and
if you are a fairly new shooter..I think thats where I would point
you. Superior to the 9mm, not as much recoil as the .45 (somewhat
less..not huge difference though)

Most of the above weapons can be had in .40 S&W btw

Gunner



The methodology of the left has always been:

1. Lie
2. Repeat the lie as many times as possible
3. Have as many people repeat the lie as often as possible
4. Eventually, the uninformed believe the lie
5. The lie will then be made into some form oflaw
6. Then everyone must conform to the lie

Pistol Recommendations?
 

On Thu, 10 Jan 2013 10:54:31 -0600, "Pete C."
wrote:


Doug Miller wrote:

Scraper wrote in
:

With a 1911, which is a fine handgun, you'll have to think about
these things. Is there a round in the chamber? Do you have a
clean grip to work the grip safety? Is the hammer back? Don't
forget the thumb safety! That's a lot of quick thinking in the
foggy middle of the night, under stress.

IMHO, due to exactly those considerations, it's probably best to store it with a full magazine,
an empty chamber, and the safety *off*. When you're under that kind of duress, you
probably won't have the fine motor control needed to disengage the safety -- but you will
have enough to rack the action and chamber a round.

And if the only members of the household are firearms-savvy adults, there may not be a
need to store it with the chamber empty -- as long as _everyone_knows_ the gun is loaded
and not safed.

Is anyone in the house who might need to shoot it left-handed?
If they are, do you have an ambi safety on the gun? Does whoever
else might shoot it know about all of the things above?

Another reason for storing it as I suggest.

A cheaper DAO plastic frame pistol will put just as many holes in the
perp, has no safeties to think about and the cost savings can go towards
more good JHP ammo.

The various plastic frame guns are "good"..but..there comes a point
where unless you really really work at it..the recoil becomes so
severe..the "bite" so rough..that you will develop a flinch.
Guarenteed.

I often suggest a good used Colt Detective Special in 38. One can load
Plus Ps with a 125gr JHP and have a full six shots that are very easy
to control in an expectionaly well made steel weapon that has a very
good DA trigger pull... That particular model along with the 1911..are
the only Colts I personally care for. And have multiple versions of
both.
Dont bother with a .357 Magnum load in a snubby. Seriously. They are
very difficult to control, to shoot well and frankly...for up close
and personal..not needed.

38 Specials are cheap, you can spend a little money and learn to shoot
a LOT with them. All of which is whats needed to get to know the feel
and shooting skills with any short pistol or revolver.


Btw...if you can find these...

http://www.federalpremium.com/produc...un.aspx?id=828

Probably the best 38 snubby load ever made.

They were discontinued, then brought back, then one couldnt find
them..then you could..then you couldnt...

If you see em..snag em. Ill buy em.

" nyclad" 38 Special


Gunner

The methodology of the left has always been:

1. Lie
2. Repeat the lie as many times as possible
3. Have as many people repeat the lie as often as possible
4. Eventually, the uninformed believe the lie
5. The lie will then be made into some form oflaw
6. Then everyone must conform to the lie

Pistol Recommendations?
 

On Thu, 10 Jan 2013 12:18:17 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message

And if the only members of the household are firearms-savvy adults,
there may not be a
need to store it with the chamber empty -- as long as
_everyone_knows_ the gun is loaded
and not safed.


A chambered round is hazardous in a fire, when firemen could be in any
direction including on the roof.

Yes. And the odds are?

Gunner

The methodology of the left has always been:

1. Lie
2. Repeat the lie as many times as possible
3. Have as many people repeat the lie as often as possible
4. Eventually, the uninformed believe the lie
5. The lie will then be made into some form oflaw
6. Then everyone must conform to the lie

Pistol Recommendations?
 

On Thu, 10 Jan 2013 09:49:02 -0600, F. George McDuffee
wrote:

On Thu, 10 Jan 2013 05:53:24 -0600, "RogerN"
wrote:

snip
I'm looking for
something for home defense
snip

One of the first things to do *BEFORE* buying any home
defense gun is to research potential liabilities in your
area and make your mind up about what you are going to do.
An intruder confrontation is a time for action, not
philosophical contemplation, and mental preparation appears
to be one of the major factors in determining self-defense
success or failure. A gun is power, and with power comes
responsibility...

IMNSHO -- Unless you are willing to fire at least several
boxes of ammo, i.e. several hundred rounds, for training and
familiarization, a hand gun should not be your first choice
for home defense, but rather a short barreled pump action
shotgun.

This solves several problems in that the permitting process
is generally easier (most likely not required), operation by
semi and untrained individuals is safer/easier (however any
person that may conceivably use the house gun should
familiarization fire at least 10 rounds on silhouette
targets and water bottle type targets in semi darkness so
they will know what to expect in the way of muzzle
blast/flash and target damage), minimally acceptable
proficiency/safety is more easily obtained, the reliability
is better, and if you stick with smaller size shot (nothing
over a #4) the risk of over penetration, i.e. rounds through
a wall into another room or the next house and into an
innocent bystander are minimized.

The intimidation factor is also better, and even if you miss
on the first round, the muzzle blast in an enclosed area is
large enough to discourage all but the most hopped up or
hyper individuals. The stopping power is second to none,
and even if a perp is wearing body armor or heavy clothing,
they will most likely be knocked down and the wind knocked
out of them with a close range center of mass torso hit.

Mechanically solid but cosmetically imperfect pump shotguns
(e.g. dings, surface rust/browning, pitted barrels)
generally are *MUCH* cheaper than hand guns, and are more
likely to function with minimal maintenance and old
ammunition, and a dud round is much more early cleared and a
fresh round loaded with a pump shotgun than with any
semi-automatic hand gun.


FWIW --


Very good post. It however leaves out carrying one on the street.

But a very good post non the less

For residential work..#6 pheasant loads work well enough.



Gunner

The methodology of the left has always been:

1. Lie
2. Repeat the lie as many times as possible
3. Have as many people repeat the lie as often as possible
4. Eventually, the uninformed believe the lie
5. The lie will then be made into some form oflaw
6. Then everyone must conform to the lie

Pistol Recommendations?
 

I don't think about this much, but somebody posted a link here a few years ago that's made me uncomfortable about using shotguns for home defense.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

It's pretty surprising, espectially the example of the guy shot at close range in the chest with a shotgun, who was sitting up in a chair waiting for the EMTs. And the guy shot with #6 shot at just a few feet, who had a nasty but shallow wound, doesn't give me a lot of confidence in small shot.

Another thing that worries me. I don't know the answer to this, but how long are you willing to trust a hammer spring in the cocked position, waiting for the time you're going to shoot? You could leave the chamber empty and rack a shell in when you need it, but do you want to give that much warning to an intruder? He'll either **** his pants or shoot first, I'd think. Are you feeling lucky?

Scraper


When To Use Birdshot
A friend of AR15.com sends this:

"I saw a gunshot victim, about 5' 10" and 200 lbs, taken to the
operating room with a shotgun wound to the chest. He was shot at a
range of six feet at a distance of just over the pectoralis muscle. He
was sitting on his front porch and walked to the ambulance. We
explored the chest after x-rays were taken. The ER doc had said
'buckshot' wound, but this was obviously not accurate.

It was # 6 shot. There was a crater in the skin over an inch in
diameter. When the shot hit the level of the ribs, it spread out about
five inches. There was ONE pellet that had passed between the ribs and
entered the pericardium, but not damaged the heart at all. As you say,
'use birdshot for little birds.'"

Ill bet he didnt wish to continue the attack after the shot did he?

Its obvious that he had a decent amount of muscle with that body type.
Ive seen the autopsy and shooting reports of a number of shotgun
wounds..and his is a bit atypical. Most #6 loads will blow through the
chest./ribs, particularly at that range. Ive seen 7 1/2s do better
than that where the wad was found inside the body cavity.

That being said..I keep #4s in my home shotguns,

Gunner

The methodology of the left has always been:

1. Lie
2. Repeat the lie as many times as possible
3. Have as many people repeat the lie as often as possible
4. Eventually, the uninformed believe the lie
5. The lie will then be made into some form oflaw
6. Then everyone must conform to the lie

Pistol Recommendations?
 

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 10 Jan 2013 12:18:17 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

A chambered round is hazardous in a fire, when firemen could be in
any
direction including on the roof.

Is that a common sense thought, or do you have cites for firemen
getting shot (unintentionally) during saves, Jim?


When they heard the shot they backed away and let it burn.

Pistol Recommendations?
 

"Gunner" wrote in message
...

snip

How much "no bull****" experience have you with handguns in genera?
We can probably suggest some arms for you to take a look at.

Gunner

I have a S&W 629 wheel gun that I've shot a few times (30X give or take),
not very good with it though, plan to practice move in the near future, I
have loaded some 44 specials for practice.

I also have a Ruger 9mm P89T that looks kind of like a 1911 style. I've
shot the 9mm quite a bit, I live out of town and often carried the pistol as
I went out to the pond. The Ruger is not real smooth but I've learned to
shoot it OK, I've shot wasps while flying, more misses than hits though. I
got a head shot on a snapping turtle, etc. Not a lot of target shooting,
cans sometimes, but mostly just plinking around. I haven't shot it much in
a while, the Herco powder I used in reloading gets it dirty and starts
jamming too quickly. My only handgun experience before the 9mm has been
black powder single shot and revolver, plus BB pistols. I've shot a friends
Sig 45ACP. Shot my dad's mini derringer with 410 shotgun shells.

RogerN

Pistol Recommendations?
 

"Pete C." wrote:

Research has shown that unchambered ammunition does not pose any risk to
firefighters. It has been proven that the bits of shrapnel tossed around
by those uncontained bursting cartridges has energy equivalent to a BB
gun at most and will not penetrate standard firefighter turnout gear.
Hopefully by now that knowledge is well disseminated to the fire
departments.


They stood there for over two hours while it all cooked off.
Considering who owned the house and what was happening, they weren't
taking any chances. It was an all voluenteer department back in the
'60s. What are the chances anyone had told them it wouldn't hurt them?

Pistol Recommendations?
 

"whoyakidding's ghost" wrote in message
...

On Thu, 10 Jan 2013 05:53:24 -0600, "RogerN"
wrote:

I'm looking for
something for home defense

I take it that prayer still isn't cutting it...

Considering your stories that you carry on conversations with God
during which he doles out driving directions and healings, why are you
asking ANYTHING here? Who knows more about everything than God? Seems
like it would be a nobrainer for you to get your advice from the
highest authority. Don't tell me he has something against guns!

God would want me to pray for them but I'd rather shoot them and ask
forgiveness later :-)

The times I've seen miracles is when I have faith to believe God will answer
what I'm asking for. I can't just believe for the impossible at any moment
I choose, I spend most of my time in the world and it's difficult to not be
worldly. So if someone breaks into my home, or if I would face some kind of
emergency, there's a good chance I wouldn't have the faith for a miracle,
hope yes, faith maybe not. So I'll shoot the criminal or die trying, just
don't want to be a helpless victim like liberals made the people that got
killed at Sandy Hook Elementary.

RogerN

Pistol Recommendations?
 

Doug Miller wrote:

"Steve B" ? wrote in :

[...]
? I don't think one can beat a shotgun for general defense. You don't have to
? be a good shot.

Oh, really? Shotgun pellets spread radially about 1" per yard of travel, so if someone's on
the other side of a reasonably large room, the pattern isn't going to be much more than six
inches wide, a lot less than that if he's closer -- meaning it's pretty easy to miss.

And the wider the pattern, the less concentrated the force delivered *if* you happen to hit
him.

? You can intimidate most folks with a shotgun. The noise of
? it racking is enough to make most people leave.

Maybe. I don't think I'd want to trust my safety to that.

?You can shoot by sound in a dark place.

Of course you can. *Hitting the target* is an entirely different matter.

?The muzzle blast till take them out if the projectiles miss.

Oh, bullsh*t. The muzzle *flash* will temporarily blind, and perhaps disorient, the adversary,
but it isn't going to "take him out". And remember, *your* night vision is going to impaired
too.

? You can skip it off the ground to neutralize more than one threat with only
? one shot.

Wow. Sounds like your "knowledge" of shotguns comes from the movies.


I'll bet that he throws grenades overhand, too.

Pistol Recommendations?
 

"Scraper" wrote


At 12 feet, the pattern is likely to be 4 inches in diameter. You still
have to aim.


I have a shotgun that I can just throw to my shoulder, and it lines up with
what I am looking at. I'm very good at quail. If I was to be shooting at a
human at the same distance, I would catch him with a high count of pellets.

But twelve feet? Are you seriously stating that one has to aim at twelve
feet with a 12 ga. shotgun? I just want to be sure that what I am hearing
is what you are saying. I have an Ithaca Featherlight with a 19" barrel,
and it is made for "instinctual" shooting.

Pistol Recommendations?
 

Tom Gardner wrote:

After we have our little talk, I will give the intruder a ride down to
the dole station where he will get financial help in addition to free
food, free housing, a free cell phone, free laptop with high-speed
internet, a monthly stipend...THEN he won't need to rob homes.


Untill he runs out of free hookers.

Pistol Recommendations?
 

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
. ..
"Steve B" wrote in :

[...]
I don't think one can beat a shotgun for general defense. You don't have
to
be a good shot.

Oh, really? Shotgun pellets spread radially about 1" per yard of travel,
so if someone's on
the other side of a reasonably large room, the pattern isn't going to be
much more than six
inches wide, a lot less than that if he's closer -- meaning it's pretty
easy to miss.

And the wider the pattern, the less concentrated the force delivered *if*
you happen to hit
him.

You can intimidate most folks with a shotgun. The noise of
it racking is enough to make most people leave.

Maybe. I don't think I'd want to trust my safety to that.

You can shoot by sound in a dark place.

Of course you can. *Hitting the target* is an entirely different matter.

The muzzle blast till take them out if the projectiles miss.

Oh, bullsh*t. The muzzle *flash* will temporarily blind, and perhaps
disorient, the adversary,
but it isn't going to "take him out". And remember, *your* night vision is
going to impaired
too.

You can skip it off the ground to neutralize more than one threat with
only
one shot.

Wow. Sounds like your "knowledge" of shotguns comes from the movies.

No, actually from many years of shooting. Let's just say that I will choose
a 12 ga. for home protection, and everyone else can choose what they are
comfortable with. And without picking nits, which is what you are doing, I
am very confident that I will hit most of what I shoot at. Notice I
mentioned nothing of aiming?

And I don't have to worry about killing someone a half a mile or more away.

Steve

Pistol Recommendations?
 

"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 10 Jan 2013 12:18:17 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:
A chambered round is hazardous in a fire, when firemen could be in
any
direction including on the roof.

Yes. And the odds are?

Gunner

The odds of hitting one may be low, but the probability they will hear
it and back away is close to 1.0.
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...-an-ammo-safe/

When I was little I just had to throw some ammo in a fire to see what
happened. The pops and the short distance the bullets and cases flew
were disappointing until I heard the primers smack hard into a
building across the road.

What actually happens is less important than what the firemen believe
will happen, and I've heard some incredible misunderstandings from
them on technical matters.

Pistol Recommendations?
 

"Gunner" wrote

Yes. And the odds are?

Gunner


If yer an anti-gun nut, there are thousands of people a day killed in thus
manner. Now where did I put that cite ................ ? I know it's here
somewhere ................. But I know it to be true, because I heard it on
NPR, or such the like .......................

I'll get back to you .......................

Steve

Pistol Recommendations?
 

"Pete C." wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:

"Pete C." wrote:

Research has shown that unchambered ammunition does not pose any risk to
firefighters. It has been proven that the bits of shrapnel tossed around
by those uncontained bursting cartridges has energy equivalent to a BB
gun at most and will not penetrate standard firefighter turnout gear.
Hopefully by now that knowledge is well disseminated to the fire
departments.

They stood there for over two hours while it all cooked off.
Considering who owned the house and what was happening, they weren't
taking any chances. It was an all voluenteer department back in the
'60s. What are the chances anyone had told them it wouldn't hurt them?

I'm pretty sure the research on it was done later than the '60s.
Hopefully current firefighters know about it.


I no longer know any firefighters. The last ones that I knew were
part of my company (Headquarters Commmand) at Ft. Greeley Alaska in '74.

Pistol Recommendations?
 

Pete C. wrote:
"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:
Larry Jaques wrote:
On Thu, 10 Jan 2013 12:18:17 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
? wrote:

?"Doug Miller" ? wrote in message
??
?? And if the only members of the household are firearms-savvy adults,
?? there may not be a
?? need to store it with the chamber empty -- as long as
?? _everyone_knows_ the gun is loaded
?? and not safed.
???
?
?A chambered round is hazardous in a fire, when firemen could be in any
?direction including on the roof.

Is that a common sense thought, or do you have cites for firemen
getting shot (unintentionally) during saves, Jim?
The leader of a motorcycle gang lived two doors from my dad's house
when I was in high school. I saw flames & called the fire department,
but they had to let it burn to the ground because of all the ammo going
off in the basement. They refused to get close enough to fight it, with
rounds bouncing off their fire truck, out in the middle of the street.
The fire marshal said there was over 50,000 empty pieces of brass after
he investigated the fire. He reported that someone had set a booby
trap, and the residents had left on vacation two hours before the fire.

Research has shown that unchambered ammunition does not pose any risk to
firefighters. It has been proven that the bits of shrapnel tossed around
by those uncontained bursting cartridges has energy equivalent to a BB
gun at most and will not penetrate standard firefighter turnout gear.
Hopefully by now that knowledge is well disseminated to the fire
departments.

True, BUT if you're hearing ammo cook off do you KNOW what else may be
in that fire? How about that can of black powder the owner has for his
muzzle loader? Or the reloading supplies cabinet with 20 pounds of
powder stored in it?

In the above case I would have dumped water on it from the street and
protected the exposures.

It comes down to what you have for equipment, training and information
on scene.

If I have a homeowner standing there to ask what do you have in
ammo/powder/primers/whatever else. Then I can say, yes let's go in an
attack the fire OR no the danger is to high to warrant that, stay out
and surround & drown the place.
If there is nobody around who lives in that home to answer those
questions then you stay out and dump water from a distance. You don't go
by the neighbors or friends words either. They may not KNOW what is
actually in that house.


--
Steve W.