There were 2 heads at the dump, each for 2 cylinders - from a a v4
engine I'd guess. Each of the heads had 1 cylinder badly "burned", as
shown. Anybody know what happened?

Just curious,
Bob

http://home.comcast.net/~bobengelhardt/EngineHead.jpg

On Mon, 19 Mar 2012 16:59:10 -0400, Bob Engelhardt
wrote:

http://home.comcast.net/~bobengelhardt/EngineHead.jpg

I never saw anything like that, but one guess is that somebody was
trying to burn the carbon out of the head with oxygen, like they used
to do with Model A Fords.

--
Ed Huntress

Bob Engelhardt wrote:

There were 2 heads at the dump, each for 2 cylinders - from a a v4
engine I'd guess. Each of the heads had 1 cylinder badly "burned", as
shown. Anybody know what happened?

Looks like a valve broke off and beat the **** out of everything
rattling around inside the cylinder. Looks like they kept it
running as long as the could after it started banging and clanking.








Just curious,
Bob

http://home.comcast.net/~bobengelhardt/EngineHead.jpg

On Mar 19, 3:14*pm, jim "sjedgingN0Sp"@m@mwt,net wrote:
Bob Engelhardt wrote:

There were 2 heads at the dump, each for 2 cylinders - from a a v4
engine I'd guess. *Each of the heads had 1 cylinder badly "burned", as
shown. *Anybody know what happened?

Looks like a valve broke off and beat the **** out of everything
rattling around inside the cylinder. Looks like they kept it
running as long as the could after it started banging and clanking.





Just curious,
Bob

http://home.comcast.net/~bobengelhardt/EngineHead.jpg- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Concur, definitely a busted valve. Saw some like that when picking
over VW heads in a boneyard. Some still had the valve stem stuck in
the guide. One question is why two cylinders would drop valves at the
same time. Or maybe the guy just turned up the radio when the first
one went and only stopped when the thing refused to run with only two
cylinders. What make?

Stan

On Mar 19, 5:23*pm, Stanley Schaefer wrote:

One question is why two cylinders would drop valves at the
same time.

Two possibilities come to mind:

1) Running out of oil (or badly overheating) might cause more than one
valve to stick in the guides fairly quickly.

2) Timing chain/belt skipped, throwing the timing off enough for 2
cylinders to crash (though I would have expected the same from all 4
if 2 went, maybe I'm missing something).

"jim" "sjedgingN0Sp"@m@mwt,net wrote in message
.. .


Bob Engelhardt wrote:

There were 2 heads at the dump, each for 2 cylinders - from a a v4
engine I'd guess. Each of the heads had 1 cylinder badly "burned", as
shown. Anybody know what happened?

Looks like a valve broke off and beat the **** out of everything
rattling around inside the cylinder. Looks like they kept it
running as long as the could after it started banging and clanking.




When the cambelt snaps or loses a tooth, this is exactly what it looks like.
We've seen engines with all 16 valves and most of the followers scrap!
Skimp on a £60 belt/tensioner roller kit and a couple of hours labour each
60k miles or so, and cost yourself £2000 in rebuild charges. Progress
eh...........

JB

On 19-Mar-2012 17:38, JB wrote:
"jim""sjedgingN0Sp"@m@mwt,net wrote in message
.. .

Bob Engelhardt wrote:

There were 2 heads at the dump, each for 2 cylinders - from a a v4

When the cambelt snaps or loses a tooth, this is exactly what it looks like.

A V4 would make me think of a motorcycle engine. It could have been
going 12,000 RPM when this happened. Another possibility, besides
a broken timing belt, might be a floating valve getting whacked.
But two cylinders in the same motor makes me think it had to be the
timing belt. Makes me kinda queasy thinking about it.

__________________________________________________ __________________
Gardner Buchanan gbuchana(a)teksavvy(dot)com
FreeBSD: Where you want to go. Today.

Bob Engelhardt wrote:
There were 2 heads at the dump, each for 2 cylinders - from a a v4
engine I'd guess. Each of the heads had 1 cylinder badly "burned", as
shown. Anybody know what happened?

Just curious,
Bob

http://home.comcast.net/~bobengelhardt/EngineHead.jpg

Looks like timing belt/chain failure. That stuck 2 valves out in each
cylinder for the piston to hit. These break off then rattle around in
the cylinder and beat the crap out of everything. This is the end
result. You DID pick up those heads didn't you??? They are GREAT to cut
up, melt down and use for casting your own projects.

--
Steve W.

Steve W. wrote:
Bob Engelhardt wrote:
There were 2 heads at the dump, each for 2 cylinders - from a a v4
engine I'd guess. Each of the heads had 1 cylinder badly "burned",
as shown. Anybody know what happened?

Just curious,
Bob

http://home.comcast.net/~bobengelhardt/EngineHead.jpg

Looks like timing belt/chain failure. That stuck 2 valves out in each
cylinder for the piston to hit. These break off then rattle around in
the cylinder and beat the crap out of everything. This is the end
result. You DID pick up those heads didn't you??? They are GREAT to
cut up, melt down and use for casting your own projects.

Typically they would be. A mate that works in engine development has
mentioned that the heads are invariably cast from virgin aluminium in
order to guarantee the material behaves as required, at least the major
players.

On Tue, 20 Mar 2012 00:23:24 +0000, David Billington
wrote:

Steve W. wrote:
Bob Engelhardt wrote:
There were 2 heads at the dump, each for 2 cylinders - from a a v4
engine I'd guess. Each of the heads had 1 cylinder badly "burned",
as shown. Anybody know what happened?

Just curious,
Bob

http://home.comcast.net/~bobengelhardt/EngineHead.jpg

Looks like timing belt/chain failure. That stuck 2 valves out in each
cylinder for the piston to hit. These break off then rattle around in
the cylinder and beat the crap out of everything. This is the end
result. You DID pick up those heads didn't you??? They are GREAT to
cut up, melt down and use for casting your own projects.

Typically they would be. A mate that works in engine development has
mentioned that the heads are invariably cast from virgin aluminium in
order to guarantee the material behaves as required, at least the major
players.

Generally they are 319 or 356 alloys, with some "fine tuning" for the
casting process in use. That's good stuff and good for casting by any
method -- particularly the 356.

--
Ed Huntress

Ed Huntress wrote:
On Tue, 20 Mar 2012 00:23:24 +0000, David Billington
wrote:

Steve W. wrote:
Bob Engelhardt wrote:
There were 2 heads at the dump, each for 2 cylinders - from a a v4
engine I'd guess. Each of the heads had 1 cylinder badly "burned",
as shown. Anybody know what happened?

Just curious,
Bob

http://home.comcast.net/~bobengelhardt/EngineHead.jpg
Looks like timing belt/chain failure. That stuck 2 valves out in each
cylinder for the piston to hit. These break off then rattle around in
the cylinder and beat the crap out of everything. This is the end
result. You DID pick up those heads didn't you??? They are GREAT to
cut up, melt down and use for casting your own projects.

Typically they would be. A mate that works in engine development has
mentioned that the heads are invariably cast from virgin aluminium in
order to guarantee the material behaves as required, at least the major
players.

Generally they are 319 or 356 alloys, with some "fine tuning" for the
casting process in use. That's good stuff and good for casting by any
method -- particularly the 356.


I grab complete engines, rims, scrap pistons, rods and the like. Sort
them per claimed alloys then melt and ingot them.

I know that the melting changes the alloy some but for 99% of what I
cast they are close enough...

--
Steve W.

On Mon, 19 Mar 2012 21:00:01 -0400, "Steve W."
wrote:

Ed Huntress wrote:
On Tue, 20 Mar 2012 00:23:24 +0000, David Billington
wrote:

Steve W. wrote:
Bob Engelhardt wrote:
There were 2 heads at the dump, each for 2 cylinders - from a a v4
engine I'd guess. Each of the heads had 1 cylinder badly "burned",
as shown. Anybody know what happened?

Just curious,
Bob

http://home.comcast.net/~bobengelhardt/EngineHead.jpg
Looks like timing belt/chain failure. That stuck 2 valves out in each
cylinder for the piston to hit. These break off then rattle around in
the cylinder and beat the crap out of everything. This is the end
result. You DID pick up those heads didn't you??? They are GREAT to
cut up, melt down and use for casting your own projects.

Typically they would be. A mate that works in engine development has
mentioned that the heads are invariably cast from virgin aluminium in
order to guarantee the material behaves as required, at least the major
players.

Generally they are 319 or 356 alloys, with some "fine tuning" for the
casting process in use. That's good stuff and good for casting by any
method -- particularly the 356.


I grab complete engines, rims, scrap pistons, rods and the like. Sort
them per claimed alloys then melt and ingot them.

I know that the melting changes the alloy some but for 99% of what I
cast they are close enough..

Sure. The big cast pieces, including the block and head(s), are really
good for sand casting or (in the case of 356) for plaster casting. I
don't know about 319 for plaster casting. It's probably Ok. Either one
can be cast in metal molds, too. 356 can tolerate fairly slow cooling
without dendrite enlargement, which can make them brittle. It would be
a good choice for casting in Petrobond, too, for the same reason.

Cast pistons typically are a high-silicon, low-thermal-expansion
alloy. They're really made for diecasting but they're pretty forgiving
(except to your cutting tools). You should be able to sand cast them
just fine.

I don't know about the other stuff. Little bits, like hose fittings
and the like, also are high-silicon -- often hypereutectic. They're
generally easy to cast. Structural parts may be 6061. You can cast
6061, although it's really designed as a wrought alloy.

--
Ed Huntress

On 3/19/2012 7:28 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Tue, 20 Mar 2012 00:23:24 +0000, David Billington
wrote:

Steve W. wrote:
Bob Engelhardt wrote:
There were 2 heads at the dump, each for 2 cylinders - from a a v4
engine I'd guess. Each of the heads had 1 cylinder badly "burned",
as shown. Anybody know what happened?

Just curious,
Bob

http://home.comcast.net/~bobengelhardt/EngineHead.jpg

Looks like timing belt/chain failure. That stuck 2 valves out in each
cylinder for the piston to hit. These break off then rattle around in
the cylinder and beat the crap out of everything. This is the end
result. You DID pick up those heads didn't you??? They are GREAT to
cut up, melt down and use for casting your own projects.

Typically they would be. A mate that works in engine development has
mentioned that the heads are invariably cast from virgin aluminium in
order to guarantee the material behaves as required, at least the major
players.

Generally they are 319 or 356 alloys, with some "fine tuning" for the
casting process in use. That's good stuff and good for casting by any
method -- particularly the 356.



I'm curious what it takes to do that.
I've cast lead for ballast with nothing more than a propane torch,
albeit a big one.

What does it take to cast aluminum?
Beyond the obvious heat, what are the dangers?

Richard wrote:
On 3/19/2012 7:28 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Tue, 20 Mar 2012 00:23:24 +0000, David Billington
wrote:

Steve W. wrote:
Bob Engelhardt wrote:
There were 2 heads at the dump, each for 2 cylinders - from a a v4
engine I'd guess. Each of the heads had 1 cylinder badly "burned",
as shown. Anybody know what happened?

Just curious,
Bob

http://home.comcast.net/~bobengelhardt/EngineHead.jpg
Looks like timing belt/chain failure. That stuck 2 valves out in each
cylinder for the piston to hit. These break off then rattle around in
the cylinder and beat the crap out of everything. This is the end
result. You DID pick up those heads didn't you??? They are GREAT to
cut up, melt down and use for casting your own projects.

Typically they would be. A mate that works in engine development has
mentioned that the heads are invariably cast from virgin aluminium in
order to guarantee the material behaves as required, at least the major
players.
Generally they are 319 or 356 alloys, with some "fine tuning" for the
casting process in use. That's good stuff and good for casting by any
method -- particularly the 356.



I'm curious what it takes to do that.
I've cast lead for ballast with nothing more than a propane torch,
albeit a big one.

What does it take to cast aluminum?
Beyond the obvious heat, what are the dangers?


LOT's of controlled heat. I use propane for one furnace and electric for
another. Each has Pros/Cons.

The BIG pro with the electric is that you can ramp the heat down VERY
slowly to control problem alloys.

Danger wise it is similar to lead, HOT metal that can start fires if it
hits flammable materials. I have a 4" DRY sand layer over the concrete
floor in the casting area. Molds can be more precise IF you know the
metals shrinkage rates.

Personal protective gear needs to be better because of the higher temps.

It is real nice though to have as a skill since with it many
"unrepairable" castings become repairable. I have taken damaged
castings, built up damaged/worn areas with bondo, sprayed them with
spray-fil to compensate for shrinkage, then used them to create a mold
and cast a new part. Have a couple garden pulling tractors around with
"factory" carbs that have subtle work done in the bores and passages to
increase flow that look totally stock down to the casting numbers....
Or how about a casting that keeps failing due to poor design or extra
stress. You can make a mold, add stiffening fillets, embed steel rods,
add material or whatever else you need. On one of our fire engines the
water drain manifold was a crappy design with a bunch of plain steel
fittings cobbled together and lines running everywhere along. I cast up
a new one out of alloy that has PEX style hose connections, single
outlet with molded in mounting ears and a much more dependable valve
control.

--
Steve W.

Oh, yeah ... broken valve. It's right there, embedded in the head. The
surface just looked so molten that I thought "heat". And I did take
them for casting stock. I didn't appreciate the special-ness of the
alloy, but I knew that I could use them. I didn't see the rest of the
engine & it's had to believe that it could be repaired. It could still
turn up.

Thanks,
Bob

Bob Engelhardt on Mon, 19 Mar 2012
21:24:15 -0400 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
Oh, yeah ... broken valve. It's right there, embedded in the head. The
surface just looked so molten that I thought "heat". And I did take
them for casting stock. I didn't appreciate the special-ness of the
alloy, but I knew that I could use them. I didn't see the rest of the
engine & it's had to believe that it could be repaired. It could still
turn up.

All Depends. I know the old VW engines, when this happened, we'd
ordered a replacement head and pistons, then inspected the cylinder
for gouges, and then some times cracked the case to look for "stray
bits" of piston etc.
So the rest of the engine might be in use.
--
pyotr
Go not to the Net for answers, for it will tell you Yes and no. And
you are a bloody fool, only an ignorant cretin would even ask the
question, forty two, 47, the second door, and how many blonde lawyers
does it take to change a lightbulb.

Bob Engelhardt on Mon, 19 Mar 2012
16:59:10 -0400 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
There were 2 heads at the dump, each for 2 cylinders - from a a v4
engine I'd guess. Each of the heads had 1 cylinder badly "burned", as
shown. Anybody know what happened?

Yep.

Valve snapped off. Beat the hell out of the piston, and the head.
I'd wager the head is aluminum, with fins - 'cause it sure looks like
a VW head after it ate the valve.

Air cooled VWs are notorious for doing that: you have to check the
valve settings every time you service it, and replace the valves ~
50,000 miles - just to be safe.

On third look, that's a four valve head. Doubt it is a VW, but
.... the valve snapped off and beat it all to hell and back.
--
pyotr
Go not to the Net for answers, for it will tell you Yes and no. And
you are a bloody fool, only an ignorant cretin would even ask the
question, forty two, 47, the second door, and how many blonde lawyers
does it take to change a lightbulb.

On Mon, 19 Mar 2012 16:59:10 -0400, Bob Engelhardt
wrote:

There were 2 heads at the dump, each for 2 cylinders - from a a v4
engine I'd guess. Each of the heads had 1 cylinder badly "burned", as
shown. Anybody know what happened?

Just curious,
Bob

http://home.comcast.net/~bobengelhardt/EngineHead.jpg


Hey Bob,

Looks more like it snapped the valve off for some reason and pounded
it around in there, rather than being "burnt".

Take care.

Brian Lawson

On Mon, 19 Mar 2012 16:59:10 -0400, Bob Engelhardt
wrote:

There were 2 heads at the dump, each for 2 cylinders - from a a v4
engine I'd guess. Each of the heads had 1 cylinder badly "burned", as
shown. Anybody know what happened?

Just curious,
Bob

http://home.comcast.net/~bobengelhardt/EngineHead.jpg

That looks more like something was bouncing around in the combustion
chamber - like the missing valve head?
--
Cheers,

John B.

Possibly a 4-cylinder HO horizontally opposed, and water cooled, so maybe a
Subaru engine.

Like the others have commented, it's likely a valve head separated from the
stem and was being pounded into the combustion chamber by the piston.. for
quite a while, it seems.

I've seen pistons with valve heads imbedded in the tops of the pistons
before.. but somehow, the valve head just kept glancing off of the surfaces
it was contacting in this engine.. not easy to visualize in a HO engine
cylinder, though.

The 2 heads may not have been on the same engine when the failures
occurred.. just guessin'.

--
WB
..........


"Bob Engelhardt" wrote in message
...
There were 2 heads at the dump, each for 2 cylinders - from a a v4 engine
I'd guess. Each of the heads had 1 cylinder badly "burned", as shown.
Anybody know what happened?

Just curious,
Bob

http://home.comcast.net/~bobengelhardt/EngineHead.jpg

On Mar 19, 4:59*pm, Bob Engelhardt wrote:
There were 2 heads at the dump, each for 2 cylinders - from a a v4
engine I'd guess. *Each of the heads had 1 cylinder badly "burned", as
shown. *Anybody know what happened?

Just curious,
Bob

http://home.comcast.net/~bobengelhardt/EngineHead.jpg

Could be from a subaru...the interference variants eat the valves when
the timing belt breaks/slips/loses teeth.

In article ,
Bob Engelhardt wrote:
Each of the heads had 1 cylinder badly "burned", as
shown. Anybody know what happened?


For comparison, here's a shot of a six cylinder Jaguar head
with similar damage:

http://haskey.com/johnh/19980626JAG/frame23.JPG

Presumably a valve stuck open, piston smacked it, bounced
it around for a while, piston shattered, more bouncing
around, engine stopped dead when piece of piston was wedged
between connecting rod and bottom skirt of cylinder. Fun
times!

---john.